Bri Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Carl Macek says: First the storyline of Macross has major flaws, primarily the concept of "music" as a weapon to be used against the alien invaders - these flaws have been addressed in the subsequent exploitation of the Macross franchise in Japan - in fact it seems that these new variations on Macross seem to be influenced more by Robotech than by an outgrowth of the Macross plot. That said, the goal of Robotech was to create an original program that could be sold to a worldwide audience. It was done to expose the animation and the property to a viewership that is not pre-disposed to the original material. More people were exposed to the animation as Robotech that could every have been exposed to it through the individual series. Robotech influence? Afaik the Japanese side wasn't even aware for a time that Robotech was more then a just a dub job. I would interpret that second underlined sentence as "If the audience doesn't know what it's missing they will consume my crap more easily" [...] However, it doesn't seem like a strategy that could last a long period of time. Probably the best thing to do after a stunt like this is to walk away with the money. If not, then they would have to invest money to get new stuff done. Instead, he or HG thought it would be a good idea to milk it as much as they could. In the end though, these people had no business in making animation, only buying and repackaging them, and look where it led them. That's greed for you. Despite walking in his footsteps, Tommy Yune can't follow the same strategy and expect similar results. The Internet makes it harder to keep secrets like Macek did and the anime world has changed significantly. You can't adapt another series into it because people here will immediately know. In fact, the revelation from the original series continues to be a huge blow to the integrity of the franchise since then. The only way Robotech and HG are going to get out of this if, *gasp* they spend money to actually do some honest work. Oh the humanity! [/faint] I fully agree and tbh it's ironic that even HG needs a creative director as they are essentially a distributor. [...] But now, DVDs of TONS of series are available, and if that's not enough for them, there's always the internet. Robotech is no longer the only game in town, and it hasn't been for long, long time. Most people who like it do so out of nostalgia, or because it was what they saw first, or because they liked the direction it took post-Macross. Maybe the DVDs sparked new interest. maybe Shadow Chronicles did as well...but I can't imagine it that it turned out to be many people. Although there are a number of different RT forums, it really does seem like the same five or six people frequent all of them, and just have the same conversations in different settings. Agreed, time has just passed by RT. Doubt many new fans can be won by the DVDs and SC, certainly not enough to even consider the franchise alive. So...who will turn off the lights at HG when the last die-hard fan leaves his mom's basement?
Wanzerfan Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 I still think that the dub on Star Blazers was superior to Robotech and BOTP. BUT there were a few good things about the BOTP dub. The voice cast was fantastic and the introduction of Hoyt Curtins music to complement (not replace) the original Japanese soundtrack was brilliant. Taksraven At the cost of having all of the violence and sexual ambiguity cut. (I watched the first few episodes of Gatchaman when it was On Demand, that particular dub was good, not great, but good).
Einherjar Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Let's be fair...Carl Macek has never said he created Macross. He just said he improved it. And made Minmay annoying. Besides claiming his version was better, did he ever talk about the people who animated it by name or something? They did refer to everyone that worked on the animation as Tatsunoko, but what did he say if someone asked who exactly worked on it? Edited May 10, 2009 by Einherjar
Gubaba Posted May 10, 2009 Posted May 10, 2009 Besides claiming his version was better, did he ever talk about the people who animated it by name or something? They did refer to everyone that worked on the animation as Tatsunoko, but what did he say if someone asked who exactly worked on it? Macek and HG never made it any big secret that the show came from Japan. Robotech Art 1 had a pretty good essay about the history of Macross, Mosepada, and Southern Cross (and yes, mentioned a lot of the creators. Well, the Macross ones, at least). Since that was presumably "Macek-approved," I don't think he was ever trying to hide anything.
Protoculture Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Here is an interesting question. How did people here first find out about the true nature of Robotech, and the fact that it was made up of three unrelated series? I watched the original Mospeada & SDF Macross way back in late 1980s, so when RT made it appearance in early 1990s, I actually thought that RT was the English version of the original series .... boy, was I ever wrong ... Notwithstanding, when RT finished its run, I credited RT for actually getting me to become an otaku. I rediscovered Macross via Macross Plus, & the rest was history.
Einherjar Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Macek and HG never made it any big secret that the show came from Japan. Robotech Art 1 had a pretty good essay about the history of Macross, Mosepada, and Southern Cross (and yes, mentioned a lot of the creators. Well, the Macross ones, at least). Since that was presumably "Macek-approved," I don't think he was ever trying to hide anything. Did it try to defend Macek's version of the story through; talking about the syndication factor or how the original versions of each wouldn't work for U.S. audiences (ex. devaluing Minmay's singing, etc.)? Actually, were his quotes posted a couple of pages ago from that artbook?
Gubaba Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Did it try to defend Macek's version of the story through; talking about the syndication factor or how the original versions of each wouldn't work for U.S. audiences (ex. devaluing Minmay's singing, etc.)? Actually, were his quotes posted a couple of pages ago from that artbook? It's been a good twenty years since I read Robotech Art 1 (I think it's available at Macrosshare, though), but i read that section many, many, MANY times and a lot of it is burned into my brain. They talked about the history of Studio Nue (mentioning a lot of the members by name), and how they wanted to get out of the business of JUST designing mecha, and actually wanted to make a show of their own. How Macross was originally going to be a big parody, but Nue was uncomfortable with that idea. They talked about Mikimoto designing Minmay, and her evolution form a minor character to the center of the whole thing. They said (erroneously) that Macross's popularity in Japan eclipsed Gundam's. Then they talked about Mospeada, and how it's dismal time slot led to its failure. They said almost nothing about Southern Cross. They DID talk about the "65-episode" rule, but ya gotta remember. The book was done in '85. At that time, Robotech seemed very faithful to the original, in comparison with horrendous things like Battle of the Planets, Voltron, and Warriors of the Wind. So some of the differences they addressed, some of them they didn't. I don't recall the authors ever saying Robotech was an improvement over the original. Just that it was different, but not too different. Anyway, most of Art 1 is pretty worthless (I even recall a few mistakes creeping in), but that last chapter, about the history of anime in general and Macross in particular, is well-researched and informative. At least, everything I learned from it "checked out" as I started reading more original sources. The Macek quotations I gave came from an interview from his website. I didn't check the date on them, but the interview was relatively recent (maybe six or seven years ago). The Macek interview naturally has more defensiveness in it. In '85, most people were praising Robotech for leaving as much "mature situations" in as it did. And with no English version of Macross (beyond HG's aborted home video version), it wasn't easy to see how close or distant it was. Later, of course, Macek himself started coming out with the Robotech Perfect Collection, which had two episodes of each original series, with the episodes of Robotech that corresponded to them. And that wasn't ALL that much later...'93? '94? Somewhere around there. the subs weren't very good, and they never finished the set, but it showed that he wasn't afraid of getting the originals out there. Anyway, I suggest going to macrosshare, downloading Robotech Art 1, and reading the final chapter. The authors of that book were some of the first westerners to REALLY get into anime, and their knowledge and enthusiasm really shines through all the RT haze around the project.
taksraven Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 At the cost of having all of the violence and sexual ambiguity cut. (I watched the first few episodes of Gatchaman when it was On Demand, that particular dub was good, not great, but good). Yes, I know that the BOTP dub/mangled version was flawed, but at least it gave me a chance to see this show at the ideal time in my life (about 6 years old) and I have since hunted down the proper version. But I own and enjoy both, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. Taksraven
DarrinG Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Plus, can you really just collect Robotech toys? Are there people that just buys Toynami stuff or even just the SDF macross stuff and never venture into DYRL? I'm sure there are some that just by three valks but are there completists that just stay on the Robotech side? I can see Macross people staying away from Robotech toys or even Mac+ or MacSeven toys, they may buy Mospeada stuff but I can't see people that just stays on the Robotech fence. Well unless your last name rhymes Yoon or Schmakmeever... I stick to the original Macross TV series only for buying and collecting, and do not venture even into DYRL as a way to limit spending. It works. I have 3 kids and one on the way and this guideline helps me to still feel like a collector and a bit of a completist, but not too terribly irresponsible given my situation. SO - I love the Q-rau but am waiting for the green TV version. Bought the TV fastpacks for my VF-1S and switched the pilots etc, etc. Sometimes its hard to resist, but other times, like with the K. Monster, its easy because the newer version is so bad by comparison. I collect Mospeada as well & that was easy because that was nothing much new until these last few years! Now there's tons for that old series and my budget is strained. I've had to readjust my guideline and chose only Toynami and Beagle, no MH or CMs and I have not regretted that decision. ------------- AS FOR THE LICENSES AND FUTURE PROJECTS I also vote for the reboot. But HG has shown it has a very hard time creating new material that's appealing in this day and age, to the existing fan and the new fan. I (we?) hope WB does a much better job. What we don't know yet is will WB be able to make anything we recognize at all from the original Macross series or will the legal issues keep them from including what we all agree is the best part of RB.
Ginrai Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 Here is an interesting question. How did people here first find out about the true nature of Robotech, and the fact that it was made up of three unrelated series? Macross #1, the comic book published by Comico. This is what I got when I asked for Robotech: The Macross Saga #1 from my local comic book shop. I was confused for a minute.
Einherjar Posted May 11, 2009 Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) The Macek quotations I gave came from an interview from his website. I didn't check the date on them, but the interview was relatively recent (maybe six or seven years ago). The Macek interview naturally has more defensiveness in it. In '85, most people were praising Robotech for leaving as much "mature situations" in as it did. And with no English version of Macross (beyond HG's aborted home video version), it wasn't easy to see how close or distant it was. You think Macek was/is bitter about his experience with stuff he tried to do after the the TV show run? I know he talked about the problems he had with the Sentinels Untold Story, and 3000, but you think he would hold a real grudge because of it, especially with what's happened to Robotech in recent years by other people? Edited May 11, 2009 by Einherjar
Gubaba Posted May 12, 2009 Posted May 12, 2009 Macross #1, the comic book published by Comico. This is what I got when I asked for Robotech: The Macross Saga #1 from my local comic book shop. I was confused for a minute. I had that same experience...getting Macross #1, I thought "Man, NOW I'm getting the real deal! Rick Yamashita! Lisa Hayase! The Macross!" Imagine my surprise when I looked up some hiragana in the Macross Guide Book and came across..."I-chi-jyo-Hi-ka-ru." Pwned by Macek again... You think Macek was/is bitter about his experience with stuff he tried to do after the the TV show run? I know he talked about the problems he had with the Sentinels Untold Story, and 3000, but you think he would hold a real grudge because of it, especially with what's happened to Robotech in recent years by other people? Who knows, besides Macek and his good friends?
Einherjar Posted May 12, 2009 Posted May 12, 2009 Well, Robotechfanplus can't be dougbendo anymore because he's moved on to video himself. Can't believe he's trying to become an authority on Robotech now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmsiNlDo8g
Ginrai Posted May 12, 2009 Posted May 12, 2009 I had that same experience...getting Macross #1, I thought "Man, NOW I'm getting the real deal! Rick Yamashita! Lisa Hayase! The Macross!" Imagine my surprise when I looked up some hiragana in the Macross Guide Book and came across..."I-chi-jyo-Hi-ka-ru." Haha, that's Rick Yamata!
the white drew carey Posted May 12, 2009 Posted May 12, 2009 Well, Robotechfanplus can't be dougbendo anymore because he's moved on to video himself. Can't believe he's trying to become an authority on Robotech now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmsiNlDo8g Good lord.
Roy Focker Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 At least clean up your room and button your shirt before you film it.
azrael Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 At least clean up your room and button your shirt before you film it. The shirt-thing is a automatic -10 in geek-cred, IMO.
the white drew carey Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 The shirt-thing is a automatic -10 in geek-cred, IMO. I thought it was -10 multiplied by a roll of the 20 sided die?
Gubaba Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Haha, that's Rick Yamata! Crap, you're right...It was Yamata, wasn't it? Shows you how long it's been since I read it...although I think I still have it somewhere... Well, Robotechfanplus can't be dougbendo anymore because he's moved on to video himself. Can't believe he's trying to become an authority on Robotech now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmsiNlDo8g Wow, Doug's livin' the dream, isn't he? I've asked this before but I never got an answer...on one of his early podcasts, he claimed that MacrossWorld offered his a chance to do write-ups for the site, which he declined to do. Can anyone confirm or deny this...?
TheLoneWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Author Posted May 13, 2009 I've asked this before but I never got an answer...on one of his early podcasts, he claimed that MacrossWorld offered his a chance to do write-ups for the site, which he declined to do. Can anyone confirm or deny this...? I call shenanigans on that BS. Dozens of us have offered to help out with the main site, but Shawn's never responded. If Shawn's too busy to visit the forums regularly, then I highly doubt that he has the time to actively seek out Doug Bendo. Perhaps he meant the forums? But anyone can write anything on these forums, it's not like it's a big deal.
Gubaba Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I call shenanigans on that BS. Dozens of us have offered to help out with the main site, but Shawn's never responded. If Shawn's too busy to visit the forums regularly, then I highly doubt that he has the time to actively seek out Doug Bendo. Perhaps he meant the forums? But anyone can write anything on these forums, it's not like it's a big deal. I'm pretty sure he specifically said that it was reviews for the site, and that he was approached by someone here. It really didn't seem like MacrossWorld's MO, though. By the way, on a completely different topic (and back to HG's license issues)...I was wondering, how vast and sweeping is their hold on the name "Macross"? If someone (naming no names) tranlsated (for example) the DYRL Novelization ((hypothetically, of course) and then tried to (let's pretend for a moment) actually publish it, would HG have to get a cut? And what about whoever holds the rights to the movie? The above naturally has no basis is fact, but is a purely theoretical question.
TheLoneWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Author Posted May 13, 2009 By the way, on a completely different topic (and back to HG's license issues)...I was wondering, how vast and sweeping is their hold on the name "Macross"? If someone (naming no names) tranlsated (for example) the DYRL Novelization ((hypothetically, of course) and then tried to (let's pretend for a moment) actually publish it, would HG have to get a cut? And what about whoever holds the rights to the movie? First off, IANAL. One of Harmony Gold's US trademarks for "Macross" covers novellas, so they could reasonably claim jurisdiction. In this case, whether or not the DYRL Novelization can be considered a "novella" is up to a judge to determine. Whoever would be publishing this Novelization should be prepared to enter litigation, which may very well exceed the cost of actually publishing the book. Second, as for Harmony Gold getting "a cut," no, they don't necessarily need to be compensated. Harmony Gold can flat out deny the use of its "Macross" trademark to anyone. Third, if anyone actually still has the international film distribution right to DYRL, those rights would not extend to the Novelization, so they would not be a party to its publication.
Gubaba Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 First off, IANAL. One of Harmony Gold's US trademarks for "Macross" covers novellas, so they could reasonably claim jurisdiction. In this case, whether or not the DYRL Novelization can be considered a "novella" is up to a judge to determine. Whoever would be publishing this Novelization should be prepared to enter litigation, which may very well exceed the cost of actually publishing the book. Second, as for Harmony Gold getting "a cut," no, they don't necessarily need to be compensated. Harmony Gold can flat out deny the use of its "Macross" trademark to anyone. Third, if anyone actually still has the international film distribution right to DYRL, those rights would not extend to the Novelization, so they would not be a party to its publication. That's kinda what I figured...at any rate, I doubt it would be able to be published without them getting their beaks wet...
Einherjar Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) For HG, it could have been an issue before when the Robotech novels were being released. Now, with the books retconned out of the series, there might be a very slim chance that could change, but only if companies are willing to put up with them. However, after 25 years with no attempts, I hope HG doesn't think it's still an opportunity to gamble on for money. Edited May 13, 2009 by Einherjar
EXO Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I call shenanigans on that BS. Dozens of us have offered to help out with the main site, but Shawn's never responded. If Shawn's too busy to visit the forums regularly, then I highly doubt that he has the time to actively seek out Doug Bendo. Perhaps he meant the forums? But anyone can write anything on these forums, it's not like it's a big deal. Reviews for what? Yeah that's BS... the most MW has ever stepped forward looking for help is this long dead thread. http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=17907
Moly_Sigang Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 With the Ark Angel-class colony ship featured in Shadow Chronicles, i think HG is setting up the Robotech storyline, post Shadow Rising, on the colonization route ala Macross 7 and Macross Frontier. At the very least thats what the vibe i'm getting after watching Shadow Chronicles.
Einherjar Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 With the Ark Angel-class colony ship featured in Shadow Chronicles, i think HG is setting up the Robotech storyline, post Shadow Rising, on the colonization route ala Macross 7 and Macross Frontier. At the very least thats what the vibe i'm getting after watching Shadow Chronicles. If the draft leak for the Shadow Rising years ago was real, the plan might have been to copy DYRL? http://robotechflash.blog.com/3175335/ (check somewhere in the middle of the page)
Moly_Sigang Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) If the draft leak for the Shadow Rising years ago was real, the plan might have been to copy DYRL? http://robotechflash.blog.com/3175335/ (check somewhere in the middle of the page) Not only Macross DYRL but also Gundam. The part where Ariel sacrificed herself sounds like they're going for something like in CCA where Amuro pushed the Axis colony and died heroically. Edit: Ariel will go Invid phoenix and pushes the asteroid away from Haydon IV and then she'll die. Edited May 13, 2009 by Moly_Sigang
Seto Kaiba Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 With the Ark Angel-class colony ship featured in Shadow Chronicles, i think HG is setting up the Robotech storyline, post Shadow Rising, on the colonization route ala Macross 7 and Macross Frontier. At the very least thats what the vibe i'm getting after watching Shadow Chronicles. Nah, they already did the colonization thing in Sentinels... they actually even touch on it in the "Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles" comics. The booster assemblies for the "neutron-s missiles" are actually old Angel-class colony ships that were going to be retrofitted as bulk cargo haulers. They're trying to rip off Battlestar Galactica, with a ship full of soldiers and civilians fighting a running battle against evil robots. Not only Macross DYRL but also Gundam. The part where Ariel sacrificed herself sounds like they're going for something like in CCA where Amuro pushed the Axis colony and died heroically. Edit: Ariel will go Invid phoenix and pushes the asteroid away from Haydon IV and then she'll die. Nah, I doubt they'll kill her... they need an obviously-crowbarred-in love interest for "Scott".
Bri Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 [...] By the way, on a completely different topic (and back to HG's license issues)...I was wondering, how vast and sweeping is their hold on the name "Macross"? If someone (naming no names) tranlsated (for example) the DYRL Novelization ((hypothetically, of course) and then tried to (let's pretend for a moment) actually publish it, would HG have to get a cut? And what about whoever holds the rights to the movie? The above naturally has no basis is fact, but is a purely theoretical question. First off, IANAL. One of Harmony Gold's US trademarks for "Macross" covers novellas, so they could reasonably claim jurisdiction. In this case, whether or not the DYRL Novelization can be considered a "novella" is up to a judge to determine. Whoever would be publishing this Novelization should be prepared to enter litigation, which may very well exceed the cost of actually publishing the book. Second, as for Harmony Gold getting "a cut," no, they don't necessarily need to be compensated. Harmony Gold can flat out deny the use of its "Macross" trademark to anyone. Third, if anyone actually still has the international film distribution right to DYRL, those rights would not extend to the Novelization, so they would not be a party to its publication. It may be a bit different from the way I understand copyright and trademarks, btw same as TheLoneWolf, IANAL. First: HG can only disallow the use of the Macross name/sign in classes they have trademarked. So if novel don't fall under that trademark class then they can't stop that hypothetical writer. But as TLW says most likely the threat of a possible lawsuit would cause any publisher to back off regardlesss. However there is a very interesting catch22 at work here, that complicates things for HG. To create derivative work like a DYRL novel, novella or anything similar you would need permission from the copyrightholder i.e. Big West. To stop anyone from using your trademark in a class HG would need to show they actively use it (requirement for trademark protection). HG can't create any novels etc. given their relationship with BW so that particular trademark is essentially useless (assuming it even covers novels and not just novellas).
Gubaba Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 It may be a bit different from the way I understand copyright and trademarks, btw same as TheLoneWolf, IANAL. First: HG can only disallow the use of the Macross name/sign in classes they have trademarked. So if novel don't fall under that trademark class then they can't stop that hypothetical writer. But as TLW says most likely the threat of a possible lawsuit would cause any publisher to back off regardlesss. However there is a very interesting catch22 at work here, that complicates things for HG. To create derivative work like a DYRL novel, novella or anything similar you would need permission from the copyrightholder i.e. Big West. To stop anyone from using your trademark in a class HG would need to show they actively use it (requirement for trademark protection). HG can't create any novels etc. given their relationship with BW so that particular trademark is essentially useless (assuming it even covers novels and not just novellas). Well, it hypothetically won't get start being hypothetically translated until Winter at the earliest...but I (I mean, "my friend") might try to hypothetically check out options...
RavenHawk Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 With the Ark Angel-class colony ship featured in Shadow Chronicles, i think HG is setting up the Robotech storyline, post Shadow Rising, on the colonization route ala Macross 7 and Macross Frontier. At the very least thats what the vibe i'm getting after watching Shadow Chronicles. Nah, they already did the colonization thing in Sentinels... they actually even touch on it in the "Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles" comics. The booster assemblies for the "neutron-s missiles" are actually old Angel-class colony ships that were going to be retrofitted as bulk cargo haulers. They didn't REALLY cover it in Sentinels. What I mean by that is that in Sentinels (the "movie", the novels, and the comics), the REF went to fight the Robotech Masters. There was nothing there about colonization. That's the excuse for why Dana and Bowie were left behind. However, now in the new RETCONNED Robotech version of Sentinels, it is said that the REF was going off to find colonies for humanity and also, along the way, face the Robotech Masters. This was never mentioned before Shadow Chronicles (Prelude comics, Art of Shadow Chronicles book). My point is, yes, they are kind of ripping off the various colony anime and scifi things now, and no, they didn't do them before, but it's all being done retroactively.
TheLoneWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Author Posted May 13, 2009 However there is a very interesting catch22 at work here, that complicates things for HG. To create derivative work like a DYRL novel, novella or anything similar you would need permission from the copyrightholder i.e. Big West. To stop anyone from using your trademark in a class HG would need to show they actively use it (requirement for trademark protection). HG can't create any novels etc. given their relationship with BW so that particular trademark is essentially useless (assuming it even covers novels and not just novellas). You do make a very good point. However, Harmony Gold is still using their "Macross" trademark on novels in the USA.
RavenHawk Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 You do make a very good point. However, Harmony Gold is still using their "Macross" trademark on novels in the USA. Aren't those omnibus editions out of print now too? I think all of the RPG stuff currently in print makes no references to Macross material either. I don't think that there is currently anything CURRENTLY being printed, manufactured, or licensed by Harmony Gold that uses the Macross trademark.
TheLoneWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Author Posted May 13, 2009 I don't know how long it's been since that novel has been published, but it seems like they do get reprinted every couple of years.
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