Robotech and HG License Debates

[Einherjar]

How would announcing a Hollywood movie of your series being planned be subtle compared to another anime series in the works and not upstage it? Didn't people go nuts about it despite nothing officially planned back then and even up till now?

If there were similarities it was very very vague. From the Stars was sort of an origin story for Roy and have him battle the terrorists of the anti-UN. Now Macross Zero, the UN forces are still battling anti-UN but it's more about how the protoculture affected Earth's development. It seems in Robotech that Earth's first exposure to protoculture was the arrival of SDF-1 but in M0 the aliens had multiple contact with early humans. To be honest I think Zero has more similarities with Smallville than From the Stars.

True, Wildstorm's activity at the time focused on stories revolving around one or two scenes that actually happened in the show. Here, it was Claudia's flashback of Roy's anxiety over dying near the end of the series and in Love & War, the duels between Max and Miriya. That could have been coincidental.

EDIT - I'm assuming that mentioning Hollywood was supposed to add a lot of positive weight to any news back then.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

I never said that announcing the LAMR would be subtle, I was implying that HG probably figured their would be no way for them to steal the spotlight from the soon to be released Macross Frontier anime with news of a Hollywood movie years down the road. Of course people are still excited about news of a LAMR that might be coming to theaters in the far future, but its not going to distract them at all from satisfying their transforming jet cravings with Frontier in the present.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Einherjar]

Of course this is speculation, but a lot could have happened in the two months between both stories. Maybe the idea of a movie was never seriously on their mind until news about MacF first came. Perhaps it came about as a cheap alternative to doing Shadow Rising. It could have motivated a rush to make a Hollywood deal as a response, that ended up forcing more compromises on HG's future opportunities. This hiatus they're experiencing on all fronts could be the result of it.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Einherjar

[Moly_Sigang]

If you look at it, Shadow Rising is going nowhere and the RLAM is taking forever to start production. Meanwhile on Japan, there's two upcoming Macross Frontier movies. The first one will be showing this November, while the second one is coming sometime 2010. I wonder what will be HG's reaction? They don't have anything to show to try and upstage the MacF movie.

[Einherjar]

If you look at it, Shadow Rising is going nowhere and the RLAM is taking forever to start production. Meanwhile on Japan, there's two upcoming Macross Frontier movies. The first one will be showing this November, while the second one is coming sometime 2010. I wonder what will be HG's reaction? They don't have anything to show to try and upstage the MacF movie.

Next year will be Robotech's 25th anniversary (85ers for life!), and they've vaguely said something is being planned. It will probably be tied to the Robotech Convention Tour schedule they always have. But will it lose some of its thunder since Macross already celebrated their anniversary? The only difference I can think of are any Mospeada material and a glint of Southern Cross if they care enough to give that part more publicity.

Maybe another exaggeration of a "milestone" in the LAMR's production. For instance, a fifth writer from the most obscure part of any entertainment media out there coming on board. Or toys, fans always get distracted by toys and other merchandise. How about a comic book that's not a reprint. Tommy Yune hasn't gone out of practice since 2006, has he?

I'm gearing towards something generally cheap by comparison, unless WB decides to help out for a change. It's their movie for crying out loud. The HG crowd will at most be consulting producers for it.

[Moly_Sigang]

Next year will be Robotech's 25th anniversary (85ers for life!), and they've vaguely said something is being planned. It will probably be tied to the Robotech Convention Tour schedule they always have. But will it lose some of its thunder since Macross already celebrated their anniversary? The only difference I can think of are any Mospeada material and a glint of Southern Cross if they care enough to give that part more publicity.

Maybe another exaggeration of a "milestone" in the LAMR's production. For instance, a fifth writer from the most obscure part of any entertainment media out there coming on board. Or toys, fans always get distracted by toys and other merchandise. How about a comic book that's not a reprint. Tommy Yune hasn't gone out of practice since 2006, has he?

I'm gearing towards something generally cheap by comparison, unless WB decides to help out for a change. It's their movie for crying out loud. The HG crowd will at most be consulting producers for it.

So it's gonna be another year of the usual stuff? Convention tours throughout the year and sell more toys like that stealth VF-1. They're 25th anniversary is terribly unexciting, unless they have some sort of surprise.

[Einherjar]

So it's gonna be another year of the usual stuff? Convention tours throughout the year and sell more toys like that stealth VF-1. They're 25th anniversary is terribly unexciting, unless they have some sort of surprise.

That surprise is probably what fans are genuinely waiting for. The theme could be "Robotech: Do You Remember Us? We're still relevant."

[Moly_Sigang]

That surprise is probably what fans are genuinely waiting for. The theme could be "Robotech: Do You Remember Us? We're still relevant."

Maybe HG will finally say what's Shadow Rising's current status is (is it still on or have they abandoned it in favor of RLAM).

'Robotech: Do You Remember Us?' lol

[Einherjar]

Better rephrase that to a more proper movie title.

"Robotech: Do You Remember Being Relevant?" Or DYRBR?

From these people, expect their own spin of what's happening for Shadow Rising and the like rather than the truth. They'll never openly abandon it and risk angering the older fans.

[Freiflug88]

Of course this is speculation, but a lot could have happened in the two months between both stories. Maybe the idea of a movie was never seriously on their mind until news about MacF first came. Perhaps it came about as a cheap alternative to doing Shadow Rising. It could have motivated a rush to make a Hollywood deal as a response, that ended up forcing more compromises on HG's future opportunities. This hiatus they're experiencing on all fronts could be the result of it.

I rechecked the dates on the Anime News Network announcements. Frontier was announced on 08-18-2007 a mere 3 weeks before the LAMR was announced on 09-07-2007.

This is just speculation as well, but with the Shadow Rising hiatus rumors that started back in May/June 2007 (according to a post by Space Station Liberty) I think its likely HG started to spend more resources marketing the Robotech movie license to potentially movie studios as soon as it was leaked to the public that Michael Bay was making a Transformers movie back in 2006 well before any Macross Frontier announcements that I know of. Then with the proven success of Transformers shortly after its released on 7-03-2007 (about 2 months before the LARM annocement) that the Robotech Hollywood deal was actually sealed. I agree with your point though that with the announcement of a new Macross and nothing to show for Shadow Rising, HG would certainly feel much more compelled to have at least some news of a Hollywood Robotech in the works to convince fans that Robotech was not a dying franchise.

[Einherjar]

I rechecked the dates on the Anime News Network announcements. Frontier was announced on 08-18-2007 a mere 3 weeks before the LAMR was announced on 09-07-2007.

That's what I get for deciding to make a post at an ungodly time at night.

[Freiflug88]

That's what I get for deciding to make a post at an ungodly time at night.

Don't sweat it we all make mistakes, I just wanted to emphasize that the time difference between the two posts were much shorter then the two months we initially thought.

EDIT: You can also blame ANN for posting article dates in the confusing YYYY-MM-DD format.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Wanzerfan]

No it wasn't. Numerous interviews with the ExoSquad writers all say that Robotech was never actually mean to have anything to do with season 3. The toys were marketed together, because they looked a little like they could fit in the same universe. The cartoon, sadly, had nothing to do with the other, and, fortunately, had NOTHING to do with Harmony Gold.

This may be a little off topic, but is there a chance that season 3 of Exo-Squad be an OVA or is it stuck in pre-production hell (which is where I hope Shadow Rising stays; that ought to bring this post back on topic)?

[Keith]

This may be a little off topic, but is there a chance that season 3 of Exo-Squad be an OVA or is it stuck in pre-production hell (which is where I hope Shadow Rising stays; that ought to bring this post back on topic)?

Exosquad is dead, the production staff have moved on, the animation studio is closed. Be extremely happy if we even get the second season on DVD.

[taksraven]

Exosquad is dead, the production staff have moved on, the animation studio is closed. Be extremely happy if we even get the second season on DVD.

Always sad when that sort of thing happens, particulary with a show that you enjoy. I really liked the new Captain Scarlet that came out a few years ago and was most annoyed to discover that there would be no second season, the production office was closed and everybody had moved on.

Taksraven

[Keith]

Always sad when that sort of thing happens, particulary with a show that you enjoy. I really liked the new Captain Scarlet that came out a few years ago and was most annoyed to discover that there would be no second season, the production office was closed and everybody had moved on.

Taksraven

Same goes for when Warner closed their animation department (killing Animainacs, Pinky & the Brain) after The Iron Giant. Just because the fools had no idea how to market a mvoie!

[Freiflug88]

Exosquad is dead, the production staff have moved on, the animation studio is closed. Be extremely happy if we even get the second season on DVD.

Both seasons of Exosquad are on Hulu.com, so its likely they will release the second season on DVD as well.

[Einherjar]

So can a well thought out and fair agreement to make a Hollywood adaptation of anything be made between 3 weeks to 6 months time without compromises?

EDIT - I'm trying to be generous with the time frames.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Einherjar

[jenius]

So can a well thought out and fair agreement to make a Hollywood adaptation of anything be made between 3 weeks to 6 months time without compromises?

EDIT - I'm trying to be generous with the time frames.

Anything is possible... but it's kind of unlikely. It also depends on what you consider the beginning point. I don't work in Hollywood but in my industry we sometimes talk to a company/bank for years before we actually figure out a mutually beneficial arrangement. Now, if you look at that final arrangement that we get into, you might say it took us 16 weeks but if you went to the first time we tried to set things up it's way longer.

[taksraven]

Anything is possible... but it's kind of unlikely. It also depends on what you consider the beginning point. I don't work in Hollywood but in my industry we sometimes talk to a company/bank for years before we actually figure out a mutually beneficial arrangement. Now, if you look at that final arrangement that we get into, you might say it took us 16 weeks but if you went to the first time we tried to set things up it's way longer.

Classic example is the upcoming film Avatar, thats been on the drawing board for over a decade!

Taksraven

[Hiriyu]

While I'm on it, can someone clarify when the Macross Zero OVA and Robotech: From the Stars comic books began? Were the first chapters of both released around the same time as well? When thinking about it, were the vague similarities between both as coincidental?

If there were similarities it was very very vague. From the Stars was sort of an origin story for Roy and have him battle the terrorists of the anti-UN. Now Macross Zero, the UN forces are still battling anti-UN but it's more about how the protoculture affected Earth's development. It seems in Robotech that Earth's first exposure to protoculture was the arrival of SDF-1 but in M0 the aliens had multiple contact with early humans. To be honest I think Zero has more similarities with Smallville than From the Stars.

Waitaminute, waitaminute. Isn't "Protoculture" still regarded as a fuel source in RT? This is an honest question, I have no idea what developments have taken place in that franchise.

[Einherjar]

Waitaminute, waitaminute. Isn't "Protoculture" still regarded as a fuel source in RT? This is an honest question, I have no idea what developments have taken place in that franchise.

That depends on what kind of fan you are, because the crew in charge doesn't seem to care anymore. I think the most recent retcon made some or most of the equipment in the Macross Saga run on fusion or combined with Protoculture. And then there's other interpretations from the comics, artbooks, RPG books, and novels that people still accept. But seriously, who cares? That universe is overly reliant on it to get pretty much anything done despite being rare.

If not, then it would be closer to Macross.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

That depends on what kind of fan you are, because the crew in charge doesn't seem to care anymore. I think the most recent retcon made some or most of the equipment in the Macross Saga run on fusion or combined with Protoculture.

While it's true that Tommy recently established that all of the Earth Forces mecha from the Macross Saga and Masters Saga run on nuclear fusion, it's not actually a retcon. You see, at no point is it ever actually established that any of those mecha ran on protoculture... the fans just assumed that they all did. I talked to Tommy about it at length back when it was first announced, and he seemed pretty annoyed at the fan reaction to his decision. The other reason he gave for the change was that he wanted to impose some semblance of technological continuity on the original series.

From what I can see, Tommy wants to erase all the stupid, contradictory crap that came out during the late 80's and the 90's from the Robotech universe, and one of the major bullet points of his plan seems to be to get away from the pseudo-magical protoculture envisioned by Macek, Luceno, and Daley.

[Dynaman]

While it's true that Tommy recently established that all of the Earth Forces mecha from the Macross Saga and Masters Saga run on nuclear fusion, it's not actually a retcon. You see, at no point is it ever actually established that any of those mecha ran on protoculture... the fans just assumed that they all did. I talked to Tommy about it at length back when it was first announced, and he seemed pretty annoyed at the fan reaction to his decision. The other reason he gave for the change was that he wanted to impose some semblance of technological continuity on the original series.

From what I can see, Tommy wants to erase all the stupid, contradictory crap that came out during the late 80's and the 90's from the Robotech universe, and one of the major bullet points of his plan seems to be to get away from the pseudo-magical protoculture envisioned by Macek, Luceno, and Daley.

Fair enough, but what DOES he say that protoculture does now? And why were the Zentradi/Masters so intent on getting back Zor's ship if the protoculture in it was not so useful? Eventually they sent nearly the entire Zentradi fleet to get it back. (unlike Macross where it was just one small portion of the Zentradi)

Personally I don't have a problem with them changing continuity - it's the fact that it seems to change willy nilly that is bothersome.

[valkyriepilot]

From what I can see, Tommy wants to erase all the stupid, contradictory crap that came out during the late 80's and the 90's from the Robotech universe, and one of the major bullet points of his plan seems to be to get away from the pseudo-magical protoculture envisioned by Macek, Luceno, and Daley.

That version of Protoculture (at least Luceno's and Daley's; I'm not so sure what else Macek was planning for it) makes sense, at least in the context of the story; after all, if Macross protoculture == Robotech Protoculture then wouldn't Big West all the more go after them and sue? And even then, Luceno and Daley introduced other power sources different from Protoculture, stating something like trying to move the RDF/REF from reliance on it, which is what you said seems to be Tommy's game plan now.

Of course they could omit any mention of protoculture altogether, problem solved on that one...

IMHO, the Del Rey novel versions's plot was a lot less convoluted than the plot from the various comics, spin-offs, sequels, and even Shadow Chronicles (wtf is up with the Haydonites there?). I wish it was the plot they worked on instead for the LAM or even Shadow Chronicles...

[Einherjar]

From what I can see, Tommy wants to erase all the stupid, contradictory crap that came out during the late 80's and the 90's from the Robotech universe, and one of the major bullet points of his plan seems to be to get away from the pseudo-magical protoculture envisioned by Macek, Luceno, and Daley.

But hasn't he replaced much of that with his own stupid, contradictory crap? For instance, the novels, comics, etc. were officially taken out, but that didn't stop him from using elements for stuff like Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles for fan wank. Thanks to that there is a huge time gap in what really happened in certain areas over the years. While fans assume something like the Sentinels and novels happened, he never bothered to explain what's been happening with his version of the "universe" ever since. Also, the first 1/3 of Shadow Chronicles for fan wank as well.

EDIT - What humanoid Invid can do in his version looks very magical, but that's without the need for Protoculture.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Fair enough, but what DOES he say that protoculture does now? And why were the Zentradi/Masters so intent on getting back Zor's ship if the protoculture in it was not so useful? Eventually they sent nearly the entire Zentradi fleet to get it back. (unlike Macross where it was just one small portion of the Zentradi)

Personally I don't have a problem with them changing continuity - it's the fact that it seems to change willy nilly that is bothersome.

Even removing its qualities as a fuel source Protoculture is still the Robotech version of Southern Cross's Protozor and allows the Robotech Masters to live a long, but boring life with a life expectancy of several hundred years. So of course the Robotech Masters wouldn't have any qualms at about sacrificing all their Zentradi if it meant getting back their precious life extending Protoculture.

EDIT - What humanoid Invid can do in his version looks very magical, but that's without the need for Protoculture.

I agree giving the Ariel godlike powers with no apparent hunger for Protocultute let alone fatigue is ridiculous. I think they should have given Ariel very weak and limitied powers while she lives on a human diet and made the Haydonites into living Invid kryptonite. The way it is written now their is nothing to say that Ariel can't just teleport a bomb right in front of the big bad Haydonite Awareness's face and bring an end to Robotech's Space War 4.

[Einherjar]

I agree giving the Ariel godlike powers with no apparent hunger for Protocultute let alone fatigue is ridiculous. I think they should have given Ariel very weak and limitied powers while she lives on a human diet and made the Haydonites into living Invid kryptonite. The way it is written now their is nothing to say that Ariel can't just teleport a bomb right in front of the big bad Haydonite Awareness's face and bring an end to Robotech's Space War 4.

She could have been groomed to have godlike powers for a stupid reason. The possible leaked script to Shadow Rising sounded like they were going to Do You Remember Love their way out of it. What other role could she and Janice have in the sequel since they don't use mechs or do anything besides be fanservice exposition?

Edited August 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Her powers were also used to move the plot forward many times in Shadow Chronicles as well, but it still annoys me how they made Ariel so over powered with no apparent limit, cost, or negative to her new found Invid powers.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fair enough, but what DOES he say that protoculture does now? And why were the Zentradi/Masters so intent on getting back Zor's ship if the protoculture in it was not so useful? Eventually they sent nearly the entire Zentradi fleet to get it back. (unlike Macross where it was just one small portion of the Zentradi)

The Zentradi and "Robotech Masters" mecha all still use protoculture as fuel, as do ALL of the ships (even those used by the Earth forces).

As far as what protoculture DOES these days... your guess is as good as mine.

That version of Protoculture (at least Luceno's and Daley's; I'm not so sure what else Macek was planning for it) makes sense, at least in the context of the story;

From what little was released about the failed Robotech 3000 project, it seems that Carl's eventual plan was for protoculture to become the galactic standard fuel until the flowers of life evolved and became sentient (in 3000) and started trying to kill everyone. 'course, Luceno and Daley made it even more magical than Macek intended.

Her powers were also used to move the plot forward many times in Shadow Chronicles as well, but it still annoys me how they made Ariel so over powered with no apparent limit, cost, or negative to her new found Invid powers.

Tommy's playing the "Regent/Regess" angle from a literal perspective. One of the definitions of Regent and Regess is "someone who rules a country of people while the monarch/soverign is underage, disabled, or absent". The common sense answer based on that is that Ariel/Marlene is supposed to be the new Invid queen, and that's why she has haxx superpowers.

[jenius]

I'd like to point out that Ariel is still the only Invid ever born into a human form. Sara and Corg were both mutated from lower forms but Ariel actually hatches that way. In that sense I like the idea that Ariel is a step above all other Invid. Since the Regess then deemed her a failure it make sense that she toned it down for the next rounds. That said, Shadow Chronicles went nuts with it and now you can help the humans have the edge with a God on their ship.

[Einherjar]

That said, Shadow Chronicles went nuts with it and now you can help the humans have the edge with a God on their ship.

Then she's the game breaker for the entire series at the moment. All that power to call up at will without Protoculture, at least for now. But where does that leave all those mechs, ships, and weapons the good guys have?

[jenius]

Wow... I really messed up that sentence. I think I meant to say that SC went nuts with it and now you can't help but think the humans have the edge since they have a God on their ship.

I think the handling of Ariel was pretty much just terrible writing. Tommy didn't really make her magical though, she's that way at the end of Mospeada as she transmutates into an apparition and is in seemingly multiple places at the same time. The way she's used in SC though is like an escape hatch for the writing. "We'll write the characters into a bad position that they can't escape from... then save them with Ariel. We'll make it so the plot would completely fall apart without the humans finding out something they have no ability to discover... and then have Ariel tell them." Meh. Still, the crappy writing of SC doesn't have much to do with legal concerns/rights issues.

[Keith]

Man, you guys are really making me want to watch Shadow Chronicles again, wtf is wrong with me?!

[Seto Kaiba]

Then she's the game breaker for the entire series at the moment. All that power to call up at will without Protoculture, at least for now. But where does that leave all those mechs, ships, and weapons the good guys have?

Yeah, Tommy and company kind of wrote themselves into a corner by giving Ariel near-godlike powers, and then sending the party of one-dimensional idiots we're allegedly supposed to care about off in a barely-armed colony ship. It's shoddy writing like that which got me thinking that there might be something to the theory that Harmony Gold is putting off making Robotech: Shadow Rising so they can broom the whole "Shadow Saga" for a reboot TV series if the live-action flick's a hit.

Man, you guys are really making me want to watch Shadow Chronicles again, wtf is wrong with me?!

Can I get back to you on that? I'm not sure where to begin. (just kidding)

In other, much more relevant news... it looks like our little How-is-Battletech-using-Macross-designs conundrum has finally been brought to light.

http://catalystgamelabs.com/

It looks like the idiots who own Battletech and MechWarrior now (Catalyst Game Labs) were aware of the whole Harmony Gold et. al. v. FASA Corp. et. al. case, but not the details of the settlement. So they went ahead with making new products containing the Macross designs, and got pretty far with it before Tommy Yune found out about it (I have it from reasonably reliable sources that he found out when a fan told him at a convention booth) and sicced the Harmony Gold company lawyers on 'em. Apparently Catalyst agreed not to use the designs without having to go to court over it, and pulled the art from their new products (presumably the Tomahawk-like design will be pulled from the pending MechWarrior game as well).