Robotech and HG License Debates

[Keith]

I think this thread is misnamed. There is no license debate here, most of us know the facts.

Since do facts have anything to do with the law?

[Einherjar]

Yeah, it seems some robotech fans are becoming more vocal on robotech.com these days. Love that guy called Sorral.

That's what happens when the company that should be doing work doesn't have their priorities straight. So the series will always have identity issues, no amount of trademarks and licenses can fix that. Fans are the last line of defense.

Even with their interpretation of the law on their side, I'll always question their integrity.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Einherjar

[Duke Togo]

Since do facts have anything to do with the law?

What I mean is, this is really more of a Harmony Gold/Robotech discussion thread.

[taksraven]

I think this thread is misnamed. There is no license debate here, most of us know the facts.

You reckon?? :rolleyes:

Taksraven

[taksraven]

In related news... there's a very interesting thread here: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=31

Krusty is coming.......Krusty is coming........with food.....and water.......and to SMITE our enemies!!!!!

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

The leadership of the site is beginning to look similar to the Macross Generation forum situation, with at least one member with "connections." Why bother?

Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I arrived at.

Oddly, about half of RobotechX's regulars ALSO arrived at that conclusion, said FGSFDS, and started building their own "by the fans for the fans" type site.

More and more people are starting to notice the gaps in Harmony Gold's argument that they outright OWN the original Macross series. It's really putting McKeever and company in an interesting spot, because they have a choice between giving a straight answer, or coming back with more doubletalk and continuing to lose face.

[BeyondTheGrave]

In related news... there's a very interesting thread here: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=31

It looks like the natives are getting restless. I predicted that the fanbase was going to get fed up with waiting for the live-action movie and Shadow Rising, but I didn't think they were going to start heckling the powers that be THIS SOON. More and more people are taking a good, hard look at the legal status of Harmony Gold's claim to Macross, and how it's going to affect their future properties, and it's producing some interesting results. We may see a concrete statement of the situation from Harmony Gold in the near future. It would probably be a very smart move, as it would stop a lot of the uncomfortable questions they keep having to try to shift aside, and the last time they tried was back in 2002.

They are getting restless. Which spawns horrible grammar.

I found it funny how the highly devoted fans will find any type of obscure example to prove their point. Or when the have a point HG's PR dept. steps in with BS to calm the masses. Which half way worked.

[Einherjar]

They are getting restless. Which spawns horrible grammar.

I found it funny how the highly devoted fans will find any type of obscure example to prove their point. Or when the have a point HG's PR dept. steps in with BS to calm the masses. Which half way worked.

They're like mindless sheep I tell you, sheep!

It's the disadvantage of offering a website and and a forum while using them to converse with the fans on a regular basis for that close community feel they wanted to create years ago (was the site made during the dot com bubble?). Now they even upped the ante with a twitter page somewhere, so more up to date information on every minute, and I mean minute, Robotech related news they want you to know. You'd think a company that caused a lot of problems and forced other companies to work with them more for their own benefit would have accomplished more with the license this and trademark that madness they like to whip out on occasion. This is mostly IT work. Appealing for public support for this long without any real effort to show for it, for something like this toys do NOT count, in this environment is too much.

But fans have clearly spent too much money and committed to memory a lot of now useless information, from all the sources of information presented to them through the years, about Robotech to accept the possibility that they've been played hard by people that supposedly care about them. I say let the whole situation build up and implode for another year, see where their dedication takes them.

[BeyondTheGrave]

They're like mindless sheep I tell you, sheep!

It's the disadvantage of offering a website and and a forum while using them to converse with the fans on a regular basis for that close community feel they wanted to create years ago (was the site made during the dot com bubble?). Now they even upped the ante with a twitter page somewhere, so more up to date information on every minute, and I mean minute, Robotech related news they want you to know. You'd think a company that caused a lot of problems and forced other companies to work with them more for their own benefit would have accomplished more with the license this and trademark that madness they like to whip out on occasion. This is mostly IT work. Appealing for public support for this long without any real effort to show for it, for something like this toys do NOT count, in this environment is too much.

But fans have clearly spent too much money and committed to memory a lot of now useless information, from all the sources of information presented to them through the years, about Robotech to accept the possibility that they've been played hard by people that supposedly care about them. I say let the whole situation build up and implode for another year, see where their dedication takes them.

I give it less than that. The way that thread sounded chances are someone has already given up and abandoned that site. Just from all the BS answers that were given from PR.

[jenius]

I love the two sides of it. Go to RT.com for ridiculous complacence in the face of mediocrity, come her for the baseless hate and rampant pessimism.

EDIT - Full disclosure, I eagerly participate in both sides to create my own middle ground.

Edited August 6, 2009 by jenius

[Einherjar]

That's the nature of Internet forums, isn't it? The two sides are interesting to look at. However, while one side really is just a fan forum with the things we admire going places with or without our influence, the other side is supposed to be the center of an American franchise online. But it's really hard to determine if it's actually making progress on the promises they made. What's sad is that they've let this happen for years without apologizing.

I give it less than that. The way that thread sounded chances are someone has already given up and abandoned that site. Just from all the BS answers that were given from PR.

It's separating the real fans from the fakers and quitters for the series. Otherwise known as telling the whiners to be patient or "STHU on our site."

Edited August 6, 2009 by Einherjar

[BeyondTheGrave]

I don't hate HG i dislike alot of the practices that they perform. But i do hate it when people refuse to see another side of the story.

[Keith]

I don't hate HG i dislike alot of the practices that they perform. But i do hate it when people refuse to see another side of the story.

Which side would that be? The side where they forcibly try to exploit something that isn't theirs, prevent legitimate licensors from working with, and generally bully around something they'll never "truly" be able to have?

Or the side where they churn out the same redundant crap because they have no idea how to make a quality product, so they just milk the disdended Macross & Mospeada teet infinitum.

Perhaps you mean the side where they kick their own fanbase in the nuts for wanting something new that can never truly be provided, and when such things are attempted all they give are "The Sentinels" & Shadow Chronicles."

Maybe you just mean the side where Tommy Yune churns out the absolutely most masculine looking female fanart possible.

Please, enlighten me to which "side" you're referring to. While I'm waiting I'll continue to contemplate why there are no Macross Frontier & Zero Blu-rays with english subtitles on the horizon, to go with the Macross 7 & Plus HD remaster box sets with English subs that I'll also apparently never have.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Keith

[Einherjar]

Beyond might be referring to stuff like the historical significance and nostalgia of Robotech (gateway series into anime, etc.). I'll admit, nothing can take that away from the series. But at what lengths should a company go to preserve the foundations of said series out of necessity? And after so many years have passed since the choice was made, has it been worth all the trouble for the company as well as for the fans?

Edited August 6, 2009 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

EDIT - Full disclosure, I eagerly participate in both sides to create my own middle ground.

So you're just the mindless middle then.

[DarrinG]

I love the two sides of it. Go to RT.com for ridiculous complacence in the face of mediocrity, come her for the baseless hate and rampant pessimism.

EDIT - Full disclosure, I eagerly participate in both sides to create my own middle ground.

"Ridiculous Complacence"

I have noticed this at RT.com, its glaring. I'll check out a topic and see if anyone has raised a fuss or even commented on obvious current hot topics -- and there seems to be total silence, or just random inappropriate thoughts.

For some of the things to change, they will need to be an organized, angry mob. But from the looks of it, most seem to be content with getting Beta Fighters 25 years after their childhood cartoon aired. They are too busy or disorganized to push for more.

For me, I want the red ride-armor finished, and don't care who gets it done . . .

[bluemax151]

Please, enlighten me to which "side" you're referring to. While I'm waiting I'll continue to contemplate why there are no Macross Frontier & Zero Blu-rays with english subtitles on the horizon, to go with the Macross 7 & Plus HD remaster box sets with English subs that I'll also apparently never have.

I dunno that's kind of a moot point considering the general state of the Anime industry in America. Especially for Macross 7 as I can only imagine the licensing nightmare getting all the music stateside could/would be.

We were told the same thing in 2006 and then our DVD, theatrical and merchandise sales did gangbusters in 2007, 2008 and 2009. This statement over there just makes me scratch my head. What exactly is "gangbuster" sales? IMO nothing really interesting Has been released up until fairly recently with the ride armors and the TLEAD and even then HG isn't directly involved. Are we to assume Shadow Chronicles sold extremely well on DVD and Bluray?

I'm actually registered over there for some reason I can't quite remember at this moment and just the thought of being active in that community gives me a headache

Edited August 6, 2009 by bluemax151

[Freiflug88]

We were told the same thing in 2006 and then our DVD, theatrical and merchandise sales did gangbusters in 2007, 2008 and 2009. This statement over there just makes me scratch my head. What exactly is "gangbuster" sales? IMO nothing really interesting Has been released up until fairly recently with the ride armors and the TLEAD and even then HG isn't directly involved. Are we to assume Shadow Chronicles sold extremely well on DVD and Bluray?

According to Urban dictionary's definition of Gangbuster:

Gang Busters was a famous radio program that was first heard in 1936 and aired until 1957. The sound effects of police sirens, tommyguns, and screeching tires that opened the show were dramatic and exciting -- this inspired the expression 'coming on like gangbusters'.

Usage has opened up to describe things that are not just exciting, but successful, intense, and many other adjectives, and many drop the 'coming on like' prefix. I think we should be more careful about how we use it, and keep it true to its origin -- something that starts with much excitement and drama is 'coming on like gangbusters'.

I also doubled checked and there was indeed a "Gang Busters" radio show at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Busters

Shadow Chronicles theater tickets and DVD Sales did indeed "come on like gangbusters" though with all the excitement of an actual Robotech Sequel from all those eager Robotech fans. Of course Shadow Chronicles is absolute trash compared to Macross, but that never stops fans from getting excited and wasting their money on their beloved franchises.

[Wanzerfan]

Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I arrived at.

Oddly, about half of RobotechX's regulars ALSO arrived at that conclusion, said FGSFDS, and started building their own "by the fans for the fans" type site.

More and more people are starting to notice the gaps in Harmony Gold's argument that they outright OWN the original Macross series. It's really putting McKeever and company in an interesting spot, because they have a choice between giving a straight answer, or coming back with more doubletalk and continuing to lose face.

Doubletalk? C'mon call it what it is, Seto...

Out and out HORSESHIT!!!

[Einherjar]

We were told the same thing in 2006 and then our DVD, theatrical and merchandise sales did gangbusters in 2007, 2008 and 2009. This statement over there just makes me scratch my head. What exactly is "gangbuster" sales? IMO nothing really interesting Has been released up until fairly recently with the ride armors and the TLEAD and even then HG isn't directly involved. Are we to assume Shadow Chronicles sold extremely well on DVD and Bluray?

They released at least 3 editions of Shadow Chronicles during that time. At this point I assume fans were inclined to actually buy all three editions for some reason. The first just to own it, the second for the 90 minutes of extras and stuff they promoted, and the third because it was for Blu-Ray. That's at least $100 per customer. It probably influenced people to buy the original series, the $150-$200 blue cube with all the Robotech DVDs you could ever want, but they could also be including sales of the original versions of the shows too. There was also a new competing show that came out at that time, it could have sparked interest in the rest of it. So maybe their sales did gangbusters back then, but not necessarily because of Robotech or new Robotech. Those interested in Macross and the like have to go through them to get the only parts available, which means more money for them.

And then there's the rest of the paraphernalia they sell. Beyond toys, it might be a quantity over quality success. Or, because the quote was made on a site that they run, just PR for disillusioned fans.

EDIT - Like they would really care where and why the money came to them as long as they can use it. But what they're using it for these days is the big question.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

I have to agree with Kieth.

I can't see any redeeming features to what HG is doing. It's not protecting its' trademark - it's trying to weazle a monopoly on a trademark and exploit the general weakness of the anime market in the USA.

The sad fact is that it is not in Big West's financial interest to have an all out legal battle with HG over the US market for Macross because the anime market in America is miniscule and because companies like Yamato make their money off of US customers just fine without needing to have the actual US trademark/license - so why would they enter into truly protracted litigation for this?

Also - it is my personal opinion that the Japanese really don't care enough about the US market or foriegn markets as such to invest big bucks in establishing fir legal footholds therein. After all - the vast majority of anime would have to be radically censored to get on American television (not some cable channel, or sci-fi, or late night or adult swim - but on TV like other "tv-toy promotion" shows") - so why bother? Even if they managed to win with HG - they'd STILL have to censor their stuff and cut it, and change it to fit the regulations of the American market.

And since 90% of the anime fandom in America wouldn't want that - then they would STILL be downloading the original with subs rather than watching the radically altered and possibly badly dubbed licensed properties that hypothetically would be mass marketed in the USA.

One of the main reasons for the success of Japanese anime is - IMO - because the companies in Japan have focused on created a truly superior product and not caring about whether or not it can be legally marketed in America or to what extent or whatever.

And this has paid off because in this day and age it's enough to market it heavily in Japan and people throughout the world will gain knowledge and interest via the internet.

HG is part of a dyin industry that is trying to sustain itself using laws and regulations instead of the qualityo f a product.

But the fact that along the way they are bullying retailers and hurting the small anime market in America is of course annoying (and rightly so) to Macross fans in the USA.

Pete

[Einherjar]

Yeah, I thought a company's business practices defines what the company is really about. You can't separate HG's significance from what it does on a regular basis.

[Freiflug88]

EDIT - Like they would really care where and why the money came to them as long as they can use it. But what they're using it for these days is the big question.

I know! When Tommy Yune and Kevin aren't attending Cons their blowing their money on hookers with fake boobs and latex to fulfill their Ariel and Janice fantasies in Vegas. Then they write it off as "research for new character designs" in their travel expenses.

[jenius]

So you're just the mindless middle then.

It seems you're trolling me. If you've got a problem PM me about it. If you don't have a problem then maybe you should elaborate to make your direction a bit more clear.

[bandit29]

Harmony Gold is fully commited to the Robotech franchise and is thinking long term success. Not going after a quick buck.

Kevin McKeever

ROBOTECH.com

How nauseating lol

[Einherjar]

Harmony Gold is fully commited to the Robotech franchise and is thinking long term success. Not going after a quick buck.

Kevin McKeever

ROBOTECH.com

Was that said before or after the company promoted and sold a limited-run, exclusive Stealth Veritech? Jenius, how much were they selling them for?

Long term success usually means paying a lot money and making a lot of long term plans to get it done. If that's true, there's nothing longer than "indefinite hiatus" to achieve it.

[jenius]

Harmony Gold does not sell toys, Toynami does. I want to say they were like $19.99 though... Pretty sure I got two for less than $50 (after tax).

EDIT - HG does not *currently* sell toys. Yes, they reissued the matchbox toys under their own name at one point.

EDIT II - I've been thinking about this more... they must have been more than $19.99 but they couldn't have been more than $29.99. Maybe it was less than $60... everything was a blur.. quite the scene.

Edited August 7, 2009 by jenius

[BeyondTheGrave]

Which side would that be? The side where they forcibly try to exploit something that isn't theirs, prevent legitimate licensors from working with, and generally bully around something they'll never "truly" be able to have?

Or the side where they churn out the same redundant crap because they have no idea how to make a quality product, so they just milk the disdended Macross & Mospeada teet infinitum.

Perhaps you mean the side where they kick their own fanbase in the nuts for wanting something new that can never truly be provided, and when such things are attempted all they give are "The Sentinels" & Shadow Chronicles."

Maybe you just mean the side where Tommy Yune churns out the absolutely most masculine looking female fanart possible.

Please, enlighten me to which "side" you're referring to. While I'm waiting I'll continue to contemplate why there are no Macross Frontier & Zero Blu-rays with english subtitles on the horizon, to go with the Macross 7 & Plus HD remaster box sets with English subs that I'll also apparently never have.

Wasn't thinking about those items in particular but more so about the stupid things that HG could have and refuses to do. Like releasing Marcoss series and then using the profit made to make their robotech series. The DVDs on the other hand. They could easily make the DVDs region free with english subs then charge what ever expensive amount they wanted for porting to what ever region.

What Einherjar was saying I'm also talking about. Nostalgia paints things in a pretty rose colored world.Thats the side I am referring to. Its alos the reason when someone is unwilling to accept something is better or even admit it is interesting but not their taste. Meaning they've made up their mind without trying even though its possible they would like it.

*cough cough Dougbendo cough cough*

[BeyondTheGrave]

I can't see any redeeming features to what HG is doing. It's not protecting its' trademark - it's trying to weazle a monopoly on a trademark and exploit the general weakness of the anime market in the USA.

The sad fact is that it is not in Big West's financial interest to have an all out legal battle with HG over the US market for Macross because the anime market in America is miniscule and because companies like Yamato make their money off of US customers just fine without needing to have the actual US trademark/license - so why would they enter into truly protracted litigation for this?

Also - it is my personal opinion that the Japanese really don't care enough about the US market or foriegn markets as such to invest big bucks in establishing fir legal footholds therein. After all - the vast majority of anime would have to be radically censored to get on American television (not some cable channel, or sci-fi, or late night or adult swim - but on TV like other "tv-toy promotion" shows") - so why bother? Even if they managed to win with HG - they'd STILL have to censor their stuff and cut it, and change it to fit the regulations of the American market.

And since 90% of the anime fandom in America wouldn't want that - then they would STILL be downloading the original with subs rather than watching the radically altered and possibly badly dubbed licensed properties that hypothetically would be mass marketed in the USA.

One of the main reasons for the success of Japanese anime is - IMO - because the companies in Japan have focused on created a truly superior product and not caring about whether or not it can be legally marketed in America or to what extent or whatever.

And this has paid off because in this day and age it's enough to market it heavily in Japan and people throughout the world will gain knowledge and interest via the internet.

HG is part of a dyin industry that is trying to sustain itself using laws and regulations instead of the qualityo f a product.

But the fact that along the way they are bullying retailers and hurting the small anime market in America is of course annoying (and rightly so) to Macross fans in the USA.

Pete

I don't think its that they don't care. Its more so down to companies on this side that don't really care about making a very good quality product ( I'm Looking at you Funimation).

And yes american television sucks. They censor every little thing that could influence little billy/sally whose parents just sit him in front of the television in stead of spending time with him/her and teaching the difference between fantasy and reality, right and wrong etc. Then when they do something wrong the don't correct them in some form they just say "it his way of expressing himself". Everything in the usa is bass ackwards when compared to other countries.

Anime industry is dying partially due to companies not wanting to pay for a License , and companies wanting to beat a franchise to death then beat it some more after its dead then when its dead scream to high heavens about how great it is and nothing compares to it. That and fan getting angered about buying a $25 DVD and only 3 episodes are on it one of which is a clip show and the other a filler episode.

[Einherjar]

Anime industry is dying partially due to companies not wanting to pay for a License , and companies wanting to beat a franchise to death then beat it some more after its dead then when its dead scream to high heavens about how great it is and nothing compares to it. That and fan getting angered about buying a $25 DVD and only 3 episodes are on it one of which is a clip show and the other a filler episode.

I think that's also common in Asia as well, particularly with promoting long running series like Naruto and Bleach. But they know how to pimp out franchises better. The difference is those shows are still going in some form, anime and manga at least, while Robotech has been on hiatus for almost three years now without resolving anything. Even the crew doesn't sound motivated to get back to it ever since the LAMR news. In fact, they probably haven't seriously thought about it except for that leaked script that came around.

The anime industry is going through some problems, but they're clearly still active even through this tough time. HG on the other hand, not so active even though their only responsibility has always been Robotech. By comparison, other anime companies have dozens or so to work with at a time. It's in a league of its own right now.

A DVD with 3 episodes of filler is tame these days. You should see what happened to Haruhi this season; eight(!) Groundhog's Day-like episodes shown on Japanese TV in a row. Then they have the guts to advertise separate DVD releases for this part spread out 2-3 DVDs.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I think that's also common in Asia as well, particularly with promoting long running series like Naruto and Bleach. But they know how to pimp out franchises better. The difference is those shows are still going in some form, anime and manga at least, while Robotech has been on hiatus for almost three years now without resolving anything. Even the crew doesn't sound motivated to get back to it ever since the LAMR news. In fact, they probably haven't seriously thought about it except for that leaked script that came around.

The anime industry is going through some problems, but they're clearly still active even through this tough time. HG on the other hand, not so active even though their only responsibility has always been Robotech. By comparison, other anime companies have dozens or so to work with at a time. It's in a league of its own right now.

A DVD with 3 episodes of filler is tame these days. You should see what happened to Haruhi this season; eight(!) Groundhog's Day-like episodes shown on Japanese TV in a row. Then they have the guts to advertise separate DVD releases for this part spread out 2-3 DVDs.

I read about the Haruhi stunt. Glad I only watched 1 episode of this season so far.

I know its common for a series in japan to have dvd with only 3 episodes on them. I also heard that other fans in regions port over R1 box sets b/c its cheaper.

I dont think HG would be so bad if they had done a reboot (as rt.com fans have suggested) and actually remade the series and made it their own

[Seto Kaiba]

The difference is those shows are still going in some form, anime and manga at least, while Robotech has been on hiatus for almost three years now without resolving anything. Even the crew doesn't sound motivated to get back to it ever since the LAMR news.

Ever since Harmony Gold announced the existence of the live-action movie project, they've been focusing on that and nothing else. In the resulting brouhaha, Robotech: Shadow Rising seems to have fallen off the fanbase's radar until recently. Now, one of the most popular topics of speculation on Robotech.com and elsewhere is WHY Harmony Gold seems so reluctant to get Robotech: Shadow Rising done and out the door.

Perhaps the most interesting theory yet proposed, and the one which seemed to offend Kevin McKeever the most, was the suggestion that Harmony Gold put Shadow Rising on the back burner with the intent to broom it along with the rest of the dated, legally-problematic "original" continuity in favor of a new animated series only loosely based on the original if the live-action movie is a success. (In short, the Transformers Animated business model)

Edited August 7, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[jenius]

I dont think HG would be so bad if they had done a reboot (as rt.com fans have suggested) and actually remade the series and made it their own

A reboot would be a tremendous failure. It'd have to exclude from "The Macross Saga" all of the plot elements, characters, designs, etc. that legally belong to BW. Talk about shaky legal ground... they'd have to take a story and make it so unrecognizable that the legal owner of the story couldn't claim it still resembled their story... that's pretty hard to do. So basically the entire "first Robotech war" would have to be a totally different story. Imagine how put off all the old fans would be by that. "Who are these aliens? What happened to the Zentraedi? Why isn't this ship called the SDF-1? Where's Minmay and Roy Fokker? Why does the VF-1 look so strange?"

If they still have some relationship with ExoSquad they might be able to reboot the franchise and replace the first Robotech war largely with plot elements from ExoSquad. Have a spaceship crash on Earth then have humans create and abuse Neosapiens until the Neosapiens turn on them, that's the first Robotech War. Then the Masters come looking for their crashed ship... then the Invid come.

[Jasonc]

I've been reading through the Rt.com forums, as well as here, and I started seeing this debate about "HG can use any design they want" crap. What occurred to me is this...why the hell would they? Knowing that Japan is a huge market for Live action Movies in general, it makes sense that WB wouldn't use any of the original designs, even if they had free reign to do so. If they did, they probably wouldn't be able to show it in Japan, thus killing part of their profits. I was also thinking, how is Japan going to welcome the LAM should it be made? Are they going to even recognize it as a Macross copy, or maybe not even care? Or, will they truly love it?

The idea of fanboyism convoluting the facts to promote their beliefs is going to persevere no matter how many times you present the plain facts. They can't take in the facts that seem to contradict their world. It's been something I've had the pleasure of laughing at for many years on various forums, as I'm sure we all have.

What does make this thread interesting is the fact that we know the lines that were drawn in the courts years ago, yet so much of it is still debated by people who simply don't have all the facts. I don't pretend to have them all either, as do many of the Robotech fans. It is good to read some of the posts here that spell it out from a most objective and factual point.

[Einherjar]

I dont think HG would be so bad if they had done a reboot (as rt.com fans have suggested) and actually remade the series and made it their own

They don't count as reboots, but there have been many attempts to make the Macross Saga their own in the past, but not in animated form. I think that part has had at least three reinterpretations so far that were official at one time while adding new stuff to the universe; the Comico comics, the McKinney novels, Eternity comics, Antarctic Press comics, and Wildstorm comics. Maybe that's why I know at least one person online who isn't excited about Macross: The First is coming out. And that's despite the fact that the original character designer is finally doing what others have been trying to imitate for far too long in the West.