Robotech and HG License Debates

[Keith]

Can you direct me to the quote?

Don't have a direct link, but after the Japanese court cases, Big West had a complete spread on their page (in english) detailing what their rights covered. Including intellectual properties, designs, concepts, specific characters & designs, etc.

[Gubaba]

Don't have a direct link, but after the Japanese court cases, Big West had a complete spread on their page (in english) detailing what their rights covered. Including intellectual properties, designs, concepts, specific characters & designs, etc.

Yes, and Harmony Gold claims that that had nothing to do with them. I'd like something CONCLUSIVE AND CLEAR that shows they're wrong. Inferences don't cut it.

[Keith]

Yes, and Harmony Gold claims that that had nothing to do with them. I'd like something CONCLUSIVE AND CLEAR that shows they're wrong. Inferences don't cut it.

What inference? It doesn't get any more cut and dry than the company actually involved in the creation of the series detailing what they own after prooving it in court.

You may also remember a few years ago, Tokyopop "licensed" the Macross 7 Trash manga through a french company who'd translated it. They also went through HG to substanciate their license and announced it through Robotech.com. 1 day later, all news was pulled, and Big West laid the smack upon them.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Keith

[Gubaba]

What inference? It doesn't get any more cut and dry than the company actually involved in the creation of the series detailing what they own after prooving it in court.

And the American company saying that it only affects Japan and doesn't affect them or the deal they made years and years ago.

So far, it sounds like this:

BW: We own Macross.

HG: They own Macross IN JAPAN. We own it internationally.

BW: *silence*

C'mon, doesn't anyone have a quote we can throw in MEMO's face when he comes back...?

[Jasonc]

I found Tommy's presentation on Photoshop very interesting, and he was a very nice guest. I found it a bit odd that Macross fans who already don't have the same gullibility as the rabid rt fans got the same answers regarding the movie. That's not a knock on Tommy, but I think they are so used to dealing with fans who'll eat up whatever they say, that they may have the idea that everybody eats it all up. My wife was there, and the questions came after the presentation. Somehow, the Kasdan name was put into a conversation where it was suggested that Kasdan was still working on the RT LAM. We all know that's not the case, but she remembered that of all things. I asked him a couple questions, but they were more along the lines of a certain product, and his own personal opinions. I'll leave it at that, but the questions came from Macrosstech fans (my definition of fans for both series) while Tommy was wrapping up his computer and equipment.

I think some of you guys are over reacting a bit about Tommy being there. He didn't invade the con, but was there to give a presentation about something not directly related to Robotech. He was there as a Macross fan, as I know he is. Nothing more. I think I would've been ticked if the whole HG staff showed up, along with a bunch of RT.com crashers. The people who came were just fine, and actual fans of Macross. Why turn away fans, even if they have strong disagreements in our status quo?

[Keith]

And the American company saying that it only affects Japan and doesn't affect them or the deal they made years and years ago.

So far, it sounds like this:

BW: We own Macross.

HG: They own Macross IN JAPAN. We own it internationally.

BW: *silence*

C'mon, doesn't anyone have a quote we can throw in MEMO's face when he comes back...?

If anyone knows how to do archived web searches, look up macross.co.uk from before the page reboot (i.e. before zero came out) to fin dthe info. Aren't there also several court transcripts archived in this (or previous incarnations) that have been translated? I've been following this issue for shy of a decade, and unfortunately, all news sources have been lost to the ether of the net. I can tell you this whole feasco started when Gametek went under. They licensed "Robotech Crystal Dreams" from HG, and when their assets were picked up by I want to sy Activision (but not necessarily), whichever company picked up their stuff looked at the license they purchased from HG, and decided it meant that "they" own all Robotech. HG promptly sued them & put them in their place, but now took the stance that "they own all Macross" that we know & love today.

When it comes down to it, HG hasn't shown proof of anything they clam, ever. Big West on the other hand has court transcripts. The tell tale is that HG hasn't used Macross designs in any new animation, ever. They used some stock footage in "The Sentinels," but considering they made those drastic changes to "Rick Hunter" in Shadow Chronicles, and didn't so much as even come close to using the word 'Zentradi" in the aforementioned film, says far more than anything they've claimed. Sure they've whored out the designs in video games, comic books, & toys, all those fal under the merch license that we already know they have.

Hell, if you look at any of the Shadow Chronicles documentaries, you'll find stock footage & mention of Mospeada & Southern Cross, re-use of those designs, but not so much as a hint about Macross. Until HG dares to use a Macross design in new animation (and I won't count their mangling of the DYRL flight suit in Sentinels), I don't think they can even remotely claim to own anything "Macross" aside from merch righst, distribution of the already existing animation, and the trademark they shiftily applied for.

The proof is in the pudding afterall. If HG did own "Macross" outside of Japan, they should have no problem requesting masters of Plus, II, DYRL, 7, Zero, Frontier, etc, from Japan since they'd have "right to them" no questions asked, and be supplied with them. There's also the case of the AnimEigo remaster of Macross. HG basically forbode AnimEigo from getting decent quality video masters from Japan, so they had to deal with the filmstock HG had (note that HG is unable to get new filmstock from Japan themselves). On AnimEigo's mailing list, they did let it slip that they went back to Big West to get decent audio tapes to remaster from (since HG's Japanese audio was in horrid shape). Flash forward a few years, ADV now has the remastered video AnimEigo used for their release, but for some reason, the Japanese audio is entirely different. Compare the two releases, and you'll note the Japanese audio on ADV's release is crackily, degraded, and all around substandard. Why? AnimEigo dealt with Big West themselves for that audio, and as such didn't have to surrender it to HG when their license expired.

[Einherjar]

There was this site I found that had something like a legal document where Big West or Studio Nue went down a list with stuff like stating all the designs from Macross that were considered theirs due to the Japanese court rulings. I don't remember the address or how I found it, but that might be what Gubaba is looking for.

[Macross007]

Next time MEMO1DOMINION is here quote that in his face guys :

The proof is in the pudding afterall. If HG did own "Macross" outside of Japan, they should have no problem requesting masters of Plus, II, DYRL, 7, Zero, Frontier, etc, from Japan since they'd have "right to them" no questions asked, and be supplied with them.

Problem sloved. I hope at least ...

[Gubaba]

If anyone knows how to do archived web searches, look up macross.co.uk from before the page reboot (i.e. before zero came out) to fin dthe info. Aren't there also several court transcripts archived in this (or previous incarnations) that have been translated? I've been following this issue for shy of a decade, and unfortunately, all news sources have been lost to the ether of the net. I can tell you this whole feasco started when Gametek went under. They licensed "Robotech Crystal Dreams" from HG, and when their assets were picked up by I want to sy Activision (but not necessarily), whichever company picked up their stuff looked at the license they purchased from HG, and decided it meant that "they" own all Robotech. HG promptly sued them & put them in their place, but now took the stance that "they own all Macross" that we know & love today.

When it comes down to it, HG hasn't shown proof of anything they clam, ever. Big West on the other hand has court transcripts. The tell tale is that HG hasn't used Macross designs in any new animation, ever. They used some stock footage in "The Sentinels," but considering they made those drastic changes to "Rick Hunter" in Shadow Chronicles, and didn't so much as even come close to using the word 'Zentradi" in the aforementioned film, says far more than anything they've claimed. Sure they've whored out the designs in video games, comic books, & toys, all those fal under the merch license that we already know they have.

Hell, if you look at any of the Shadow Chronicles documentaries, you'll find stock footage & mention of Mospeada & Southern Cross, re-use of those designs, but not so much as a hint about Macross. Until HG dares to use a Macross design in new animation (and I won't count their mangling of the DYRL flight suit in Sentinels), I don't think they can even remotely claim to own anything "Macross" aside from merch righst, distribution of the already existing animation, and the trademark they shiftily applied for.

The proof is in the pudding afterall. If HG did own "Macross" outside of Japan, they should have no problem requesting masters of Plus, II, DYRL, 7, Zero, Frontier, etc, from Japan since they'd have "right to them" no questions asked, and be supplied with them. There's also the case of the AnimEigo remaster of Macross. HG basically forbode AnimEigo from getting decent quality video masters from Japan, so they had to deal with the filmstock HG had (note that HG is unable to get new filmstock from Japan themselves). On AnimEigo's mailing list, they did let it slip that they went back to Big West to get decent audio tapes to remaster from (since HG's Japanese audio was in horrid shape). Flash forward a few years, ADV now has the remastered video AnimEigo used for their release, but for some reason, the Japanese audio is entirely different. Compare the two releases, and you'll note the Japanese audio on ADV's release is crackily, degraded, and all around substandard. Why? AnimEigo dealt with Big West themselves for that audio, and as such didn't have to surrender it to HG when their license expired.

Thanks for the thorough answer. I agree that all available circumstantial evidence points to the conclusion that HG cannot use anything except the actual film footage of Macross (which is all Tatsunoko owns), but I really wish there was something big and specific that said plainly, "HG can't use this."

Oh, well. Maybe Big West will actually CHALLENGE the copyright next time around...we can dream, right?

There was this site I found that had something like a legal document where Big West or Studio Nue went down a list with stuff like stating all the designs from Macross that were considered theirs due to the Japanese court rulings. I don't remember the address or how I found it, but that might be what Gubaba is looking for.

Yeah, I remember that. The one that listed Britai as "Bullitie," right?

[Einherjar]

I'm getting frustrated finding that address, I need to try again later. This is all I could get:

Harmony Gold does not own Macross License - Japanese Courts rule

...but,

Tatsunoko Wins "Author's Right" to Macross

Tatsunoko Wins Macross Lawsuit

If I'm reading this right, Tatsunoko/HG has the rights to only the footage from SDF Macross and international rights, while Big West has the rights to the character, mechanical designs, etc., and most importantly, the rights to the franchise.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Einherjar

[heishiromitsurugi]

Trademark is what’s really keeping the rest of Macross out of the US. HG owns the US trademark to the word Macross. And they have a reasonable claim to it, Macross is an important word in Robotech, so they have the right to control that word. It’s called brand image and brand recognition.

The fact is that familiarity with companies and brands are a key to a functioning Capitalist system.

Do you also think that just because ADV happened to be the first company to lisence Neon Genesis Evangelion it would had the right to trademark it in the western countries so that Manga Entertainment, Viz and Funimation should pay ADV for the use of NGE, instead of straight to Gainax? Fortunately that's not the case. NGE tv series was licensed by ADV, the first two movies by Mange Entertainment, Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's manga by Viz, Angelic Days manga by ADV and the new movies by Funimation. None of them own the trademark of Neon Genesi Evangelion, rightly so. Harmony Gold seems to be the only (ex) licensing company I know that has trademarked a show it only distributed. Even Disney hasn't trademarked Ghibli movies and I couldn't find trademark notices even in my Gundam DVD:s licensed by Bandai Entertainment.

[Einherjar]

Do you also think that just because ADV happened to be the first company to lisence Neon Genesis Evangelion it would had the right to trademark it in the western countries so that Manga Entertainment, Viz and Funimation should pay ADV for the use of NGE, instead of straight to Gainax? Fortunately that's not the case.

By the time Evangelion came around, standards were made by the anime distributing industry regarding handling titles. Unfortunately, shows like Macross had to take the fall to lead up to it.

[Bri]

The one person who could answer why Big West did not get the trademarks on Macross would be Cynthia A. Nishimoto, a LA lawyer who represented Big West during the three way trademark fight between Big West, HG and Tatsunoko between July 1999 and September 2000. Interestingly she works for Bandai as a company lawyer these days.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bri

[Radd]

Here's a simple way to think of how the Tokyo Circuit Court decision affects HG. The decision clearly defined the status of the domestic and international rights as divied between BW and Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko could not have sold HG any rights that they, themselves, did not own in the first place.

[taksraven]

The one person who could answer why Big West did not get the trademarks on Macross would be Cynthia A. Nishimoto, a LA lawyer who represented Big West during the three way trademark fight between Big West, HG and Tatsunoko between July 1999 and September 2000. Interestingly she works for Bandai as a company lawyer these days.

Just out of interest, did any particular event instigate this trademark fight in court?

(edit: actually, what would be fantastic would be if anybody could put together a timeline showing the legalities of the HG Vs everybody else business, right from when HG purchased the Macross rights, its a big ask but I am sure that a lot of us would love to see it)

Taksraven

Edited July 21, 2009 by taksraven

[VFTF1]

And the American company saying that it only affects Japan and doesn't affect them or the deal they made years and years ago.

So far, it sounds like this:

BW: We own Macross.

HG: They own Macross IN JAPAN. We own it internationally.

BW: *silence*

C'mon, doesn't anyone have a quote we can throw in MEMO's face when he comes back...?

Gubaba - you're not going to get any more definitive than this.

And that's exactly why - in my opinion - copyright laws need to be reformed and globalized or just left to whither and die as arcane abstractions.

Because in the end - the only cut and dry is this:

American courts and American law will not allow BW to do what they want in America on the basis of a Japanese court decision. And Japanese courts and Japanese law will not allow for an American company using spurious claims to take rights that are guarnateed to BW under Japanese law.

In fact - if you look at the vast majority of disputes between international corporations big and small - they usually don't take place in any nation's court system - instead, there is an entire system of international arbitrage courts - a kind of voluntary system that most multinationals buy into in order to adjudicate disputes that cross borders and would otherwise be tedious and cumbersome to litigate in multiple courts in multiple countries across the globe.

And most of the times - these international arbitrage institutions work just fine.

In this case - obviously it didn't work - and that's fine too.

As has been said numerous times on this thread -people who love the original Macross can get it, have access to it and are not going to jail because of wanting it.

People who want to be Robotechies can do that too.

And in the end - if ALL HG does for the rest of it's years is beat this dead horse of litigation - it will go bankrupt. They have to eventually actually come out with a product. They are trying to do that by making Robotech into a semi-independent franchise - Shadow Chronicles certainly moved a bit in that direction, and if they suceed with the Live Action movie - then certainly they'll have gotten an independent franchise running.

But the more the succeed in doing that - the more it STOPS being Macross.

And you know what? GOOD.

I hope they make Robotech: The Live Action movie featuring transforming F-22s, Britney Spears and alien squids with fourty tentacles who suck people's brains out.

Let them do something that has absolutely nothing to do with Macross - let them even make some money off of it - anything to get them to finally leave Macross and the Macross fandom alone.

Pete

[Bri]

Let them do something that has absolutely nothing to do with Macross - let them even make some money off of it - anything to get them to finally leave Macross and the Macross fandom alone.

Pete

Unfortunately there is no guarantee what-so-ever that HG will cease their stranglehold on Macross if Robotech would become an independant franchise. In an ideal situation Tatsunoko would sell the international merchandising and economic rights to SDFM to Bandai or Big West and then the problem would be solved.

[VFTF1]

In an ideal situation Tatsunoko would sell the international merchandising and economic rights to SDFM to Bandai or Big West and then the problem would be solved.

In an ideal situation, Bandai and Yamato would just establish their own distributorships in different countries and run them correctly. Bandai is coming to Poland next month, for example. I unfortunately do NOT anticipate this to mean that this market will suddenly be flooded with Macross Frontier goods.

Although I guess I can hope.

But if you look at the way these guys operate outside of Japan, it isn't as coherently as Hasbro and Takara-Tomy do it. I am highly critical of recent Transformers products, but I have to admit that from a marketing and business point of view - Hasbro and Takara-Tomy do a great job of working togethe to "make the world smile" as Hasbro puts it.

Of course, the truly ideal situation would be if Megumi and May'N showed up at my doorstep to sing for me and Marii Ijima, who just eloped, and then we got to book Yoshiki Fukayama for our wedding.

That would be ideal

Pete

[Bri]

Just out of interest, did any particular event instigate this trademark fight in court?

(edit: actually, what would be fantastic would be if anybody could put together a timeline showing the legalities of the HG Vs everybody else business, right from when HG purchased the Macross rights, its a big ask but I am sure that a lot of us would love to see it)

Taksraven

I can only give the timeline for the trademarks. Other members know far more about the Lawsuit in Japan so maybe they can put some dates up.

Anyway the whole Macross trademark affair:

United States

Harmony Gold...Trademarks IC 009, 016, 028, 049, prerecorded DVD/VHS/CD/Tape, Books-Magazines-Comics, Merchandise/Toys/Videogames, Animation,

Applied..............July 12, 1999

Abandoned....... March 12, 2002

Harmony Gold... Trademarks IC025 Clothing

Applied............. July 14, 1999

Published...........February 29, 2000

Registered........ May 21, 2002

Tatsunoko ........Trademarks IC 028, 041 Merchandise/Toys/Videogames, Animated TV series

Applied.............. August 11, 1999

Abandoned.........September 22, 2000

Big West...........Trademarks IC 009, 016 prerecorded DVD/CD/VHS/Tape, Books-Magazines-Comics

Applied............. August 18, 1999

Abandoned........September 22, 2000

Big West...........Trademarks IC 028, 016, 009 Merchandise/Toys, Books-Magazines-Comics, prerecorded DVD/CD/VHS/Tape (relist of IC 016 and 009 for unknown reasons)

Applied..............August 23, 1999

Abandoned........September 22, 2000

Big West...........Trademarks IC 025 Clothing

Applied..............September 22, 1999

Abandoned........September 22, 2000

Big West...........Trademarks IC 009,016,025,028, 041 for Macross PLUS

Applies............. February 23 and 25, 2000

Abandoned........March 8 and 27, 2001

Harmony Gold....Trademarks IC 009 prerecorded DVD/VHS/CD/Tape

Applied..............July 20, 2001

Published...........February 26, 2002

Registered.........October 15, 2002

Harmony Gold ...Trademarks IC 016, 028 Merchandise/Toys/ Books-Magazines-Comics and the words Super Dimension Fortress in Chinese and Macross in Japanese language and

Applied............. March 13, 2002

Published...........June 17, 2003

Registered........ September 9, 2003

Harmony Gold...Trademarks IC 041 Animated TV series

Applied............. March 14, 2002

Published..........October 29, 2002

Registered........ January 21, 2003

Harmony Gold... Trademarks IC 028 Merchandise/Toys/Videogames

Applied............. January 6, 2003

Published.......... .November 11, 2003

Registered.........February 3, 2004

Canada

Harmony Gold... Trademarks IC 009, 016, 025, 028, 041

Applied.............1999-07-30

Published.......... 2001-01-10

Registered........ 2002-08-09

Germany

Harmony Gold....Trademarks IC 009, 016, 025, 028, 041

Applied............. July 30, 1999

Registered........ March 2, 2000

Extended...........August 1, 2009

France

Harmony Gold...Trademarks IC 009, 016, 025, 028, 041

Applied............. 1999-07-07

Published...........1999-08-13

Extended...........2009-07-07

Italy

Harmony Gold...Trademarks IC 025, 028, 041

Applied..............August 13, 1999

Registered..........March 20, 2003

United Kingdom

Harmony Gold... Trademarks IC 016, 025

Applied..............July 30, 1999

Registered.........February 14, 2003

Extended.......... August 7, 2009

Spain

Harmony Gold.......Trademarks IC 038, 041

Registered.........01/03/2001

Essentially in July 1999 Harmony Gold applies for trademarks in several classes in at least 7 countries. Big West and Tatsunoko respond by appyling for trademarks in the US in Augsut 1999, interesting to mention that Tats aplies first so not in reaction to BW. On September 22, 2000 both Tats and BW are either denied a TM, come to a settlement or give up on their own accord. In 2002 most of the HG trademarks are not awarded except for the clothing one, however they immediatley reapply and get the trademarks on a class by class basis. Big West tries to apllly for a Macross Plus trademark in 5 clases but that attempt fails/is abandoned as well.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bri

[Freiflug88]

B

And yes it is a tired old debate, but clearly new fans are still disillusioned by the thinking that signing with HG is ideal. It's self serving for those fans to think something shuold happen just because of their own mistrust for online dealers. I'm just trying to point out how Big West would rather not distibute internationally rather than have to deal with HG. But at this point a few fans want what they want and it's just going over some peoples heads

I don't think that signing with HG is ideal, I just think that its the best choice for the foreseeable future. It looks to me like BW can either release Macross overseas now with HG or sit around hoping for an opportunity that may or may not present itself in years. Yeah, I know its pretty self serving to ask for Macross to be distributed over here, but is it really too much to ask to have Macross Frontier brought over here officially in stores while its still fresh instead of waiting till the 50th Anniversary of Macross in 2032?

It is stipulated in the court ruling that Tatsunoko has distribution rights when it comes to SDFM TV itself only but it does not own Macross designs, story and derivative products. Those are owned by Big West and Studio Nue.

This means HG does not have the right to trademark Macross as their license was given by Tatsunoko.

Problem is that HG never trademarked the designs, story, or derivatives. They trademarked the name Macross and the logos for SDF Macross and Macross DYRL from the Macross merchandise they were able to sell with Tatsunko's merchandise rights. Since Tatsunko's very rights to international merchandise were upheld by the Japanese Supreme Court in the Big West vs. Tatsunko decision I would imagine it would be very difficult for BW to convince any court that Harmony Gold didn't have the right to trademark the names and logos from the Macross merchandise that they had a right to sell.

Bullshit answer. VF-1 /= F-14. They can't use the VF-1 because they don't have the rights to it.

So by your logic Shinji Kawamori's VF-1 equals the US Navy's F-14. Kawamori and Big West are therefore guilty of IP theft and only the US Navy has the rights to the F-14 and VF-1 designs.

F-14 doesn't Macross VF-1. There is more then one way to transform a Tomcat.

That Roven's an idiot? Isn't the Voltron live-action movie project still tied up in the courts because the US distributor doesn't have the IP rights to GoLion?

According to the article Einherjar posted:

New Regency, a 20th Century Fox-based production company, once negotiated with WEP and the Mark Gordon Company for the live-action Voltron rights in 2007. However, New Regency never actually signed a deal, and other companies were allowed to negotiate for the rights. WEP said in a 2008 lawsuit that New Regency discovered that former Toei character designer Kazuo Nakamura "may possess rights" related to Golion and thus the first Voltron series.

So it looks like New Regency's lawsuit after finding WEP didn't poess the rights to Golion has settled. Now that Voltron is in WB's hand I think this must be the work of Alan Moore's curse on WB. After ruining Watchmen with the most loyal adaption of all time, WB is now compelled to ruin classic animes with unofficial "re-imaginings." Its probably just that Brit's way of getting back at the Japanese for sinking the Prince of Wales and the Repulse in what became known as "Britian's Pearl Harbor."

Of course, the truly ideal situation would be if Megumi and May'N showed up at my doorstep to sing for me and Marii Ijima, who just eloped, and then we got to book Yoshiki Fukayama for our wedding.

What's stopping you from hooking up with that cougar here in the real world? Is her two kids and dirty swimming pool just do much to deal with?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Freiflug88

[RedWolf]

Problem is that HG never trademarked the designs, story, or derivatives. They trademarked the name Macross and the logos for SDF Macross and Macross DYRL from the Macross merchandise they were able to sell with Tatsunko's merchandise rights. Since Tatsunko's very rights to international merchandise were upheld by the Japanese Supreme Court in the Big West vs. Tatsunko decision I would imagine it would be very difficult for BW to convince any court that Harmony Gold didn't have the right to trademark the names and logos from the Macross merchandise that they had a right to sell.

Sigh~ Tatsunoko only got distribution rights for Macross TV. That does not include DYRL.

Why did you suppose HG did not even use Macross and UN Spacy in Shadow Chronicles even if they trademarked them?

They knew BW would have a basis to go after them. This is really Tsuburaya and Chaiyo all over again.

Difference is HG isn't as blatant as Chaiyo and BW isn't Tsuburaya where they viciously defended the memory and honor of their founder who created Ultraman.

The Tsuburaya vs Chaiyo case went from court to court. Thailand, China and Japan.

Tsuburaya won.

[Freiflug88]

Sigh~ Tatsunoko only got distribution rights for Macross TV. That does not include DYRL.

Why did you suppose HG did not even use Macross and UN Spacy in Shadow Chronicles even if they trademarked them?

They knew BW would have a basis to go after them. This is really Tsuburaya and Chaiyo all over again.

Difference is HG isn't as blatant as Chaiyo and BW isn't Tsuburaya where they viciously defended the memory and honor of their founder who created Ultraman.

The Tsuburaya vs Chaiyo case went from court to court. Thailand, China and Japan.

Tsuburaya won.

I said Merchandise not distribution rights for DYRL. I checked the US trademark database again. My bad HG doen't have the DYRL logo trademarked, but they do have this one Macross Logo trademarked:

This was the Macross logo I was referring to. Not the UN Spacey and SDF Macross Insignia you were talking about.

I am trying to tell you that Tatsunko's distrubition rights over the SDF Macross series only helps HG's trademark case. If you are legally selling a product you have the right to trademark whatever name or logo is on said product regardless of who the original creator is according to US trademark law.

[azrael]

Good grief... Have you guys been repeating 2003 thru 2004 all over again?

[Duke Togo]

Good grief... Have you guys been repeating 2003 thru 2004 all over again?

Yes, yes they are.

[EXO]

The upcoming (haha) RLAM has gone up and stirred up the hive.

[Einherjar]

Yeah, I remember that. The one that listed Britai as "Bullitie," right?

Found it, but it was made before the 2004 decision. Someone might want to put a sticky on this.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040806174222/...ents/index.html

Oh yes, they took advantage of the copyright to make more Macross products ever since.

[TheLoneWolf]

Found it, but it was made before the 2004 decision. Someone might want to put a sticky on this.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040806174222/...ents/index.html

Way ahead of you. It was included in the Sources section of the first post of this thread.

[Einherjar]

Way ahead of you. It was included in the Sources section of the first post of this thread.

Dammit, oh well. Gubaba's question has already been answered then.

If he does come back tell Memo to read the first page of the thread really carefully without prejudices.

[RedWolf]

Good grief... Have you guys been repeating 2003 thru 2004 all over again?

I read everything from the first page and got a firm understanding of the legalities.

I don't get the willful misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the legal facts that Freiflug88 and MEMO1DOMINION advocate.

Its clearcut that Tatsunoko and HG are not the copyright owners of Macross.

[Einherjar]

"The smarter you are, the better-read you are, the more knowledgeable, the more questioning you are, the more skeptical you are, the better chance you have of not being manipulated, of not winding up somebody's tool."

Harlan Ellison

[Xeros]

Its clearcut that Tatsunoko and HG are not the copyright owners of Macross.

Then why when I look in the link almost everything is copyrighted by HG and tatsunoko???

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon...&PAGE=First

I'm really don't know how it works the copyright in the US, but seems to me that someone is stealing

[Bri]

Good grief... Have you guys been repeating 2003 thru 2004 all over again?

Yes, yes they are.

I've reread those two years of that thread, thanks for that, it was a lot of fun to wade through

Anyhow those 50 pages can be summed up in a few sentences:

Tatsunoko and BW had a lawsuit about the copyright. The consensus on the verdict is that Tatsunoko and BW each own part of the copyright. The original 1982 memorandum from the production commitee grants international distribution and merchandising of SDF Macross to Tats. BW/Nue have the rights to all the designs for SDF Macross. Tats was awarded ownership of the animation and they sued BW/Nue for use of the name Macross and the rights to sequals in Japan. Tats lost and BW/Nue are free to use the name Macross and designs to make further sequals.

Unfortunately this all means little for the international situation, and now we are slowly reaching different territories from the 2003/2004 thread as it only went on and on about who owned what part of the copyrights.

HG correctly saw that the way to control Macross internationally was by trademarks. In July 1999 they commited their coup by trademarking the name in several countries. Not only was that action able to block a licensed YF-19 from Yamato by Toycom it also stopped further Macross publications in Europe. Glenat and Planet Manga had gotten sub-licences for M7 Trash in 1998 through Kadokawa. Note that buying those trademarks for multiple classes and representation by at least 7 lawfirms must have cost HG tens of thousands of dollars if not more. Wonder how they managed to pull that one off given they had trouble "minding the store" just a few years earlier.

As can be seen from thispost is that both Tats and BW tried to get US trademarks as well. Typical that both Tats and BW stopped/lost/gave up their attempts the same day. BW also tried to get a Macross Plus trademark.

How to interpret this? I'm sure this can't have been a solo action by HG. Tommy Yune confirmed that Tats has to renew the HG license, so HG can't afford to screw them over. MEMO even suggested that they are very supportive of the blockade. Also BW also tried to get a Macross Plus trademark. Had that succeded they could have just marketed any derivative in the US under a seperate trademark.

How solid is HGs grasp on the name Macross? Tatsunoko's part of the copyright, the economic rights, would suggest that they can use the name outside of Japan. Based on the memorandum of SDF Macross they are responsible for the international distribution. So the grip might be quite strong, which might be hinted at by the unsuccesful attempts of BW in winning the US trademark.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Bri

[Einherjar]

How solid is HGs grasp on the name Macross? Tatsunoko's part of the copyright, the economic rights, would suggest that they can use the name outside of Japan. Based on the memorandum of SDF Macross they are responsible for the international distribution. So the grip might be quite strong, which might be hinted at by the unsuccesful attempts of BW in winning the US trademark.

In the end, all Harmony Gold has are trademarks and the like over names, symbols, etc. and relatively small pieces of what they really need for their international market campaign to succeed. It loses some of it's worth when the right people refuse to work with them over a long period of time. All they can do is order C&Ds for merchandise, renew trademarks every few years, and hope the important companies eventually accept going to the negotiation table. At least, for the moment, they don't have the power to force companies like Big West and Studio Nue to cooperate making their stuff or force them to stop making new Macross products. We would've have gotten a Robotech G(eneric) show instead of MacF.

EDIT: I have a bad feeling something's coming up at Comic Con to change this situation.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Einherjar

[EXO]

Let me put your mind at ease right now, that NO nothing announced at Comicon will change the legal situations. I'm assuming that your talking about the ominous statement that people are hinting at.

[Freiflug88]

I read everything from the first page and got a firm understanding of the legalities.

I don't get the willful misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the legal facts that Freiflug88 and MEMO1DOMINION advocate.

Its clearcut that Tatsunoko and HG are not the copyright owners of Macross.

Yeah, its clear that Big West is the legitimate COPYRIGHT owner of Macross, but it is clearcut that HG is a legitmate TRADEMARK owner of Macross.

In 1999 and 2002, Harmony Gold tradedmarked the name 'Macross' in the USA, Canada, Germany, and the United Kingdom. What this means is that any series and merchandising featuring the 'Macross' trademark would have to compensate Harmony Gold for the use of that trademark in those respective countries.

Then why when I look in the link almost everything is copyrighted by HG and tatsunoko???

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon...&PAGE=First

I'm really don't know how it works the copyright in the US, but seems to me that someone is stealing

Interesting link Xeros. Fortunately not every copyright record was theft, found out Macross Plus music was credited as copyrighted music played at the 1998 UK Breakdancing championship. I got to get a copy of the 1998 UK Breakdance Championship now, $20 says that they breakdanced to Information High!

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8628/breakdancef.jpg

I've reread those two years of that thread, thanks for that, it was a lot of fun to wade through dry.gif

Anyhow those 50 pages can be summed up in a few sentences:

Thanks for all your hardwork Bri. I'd reward you with a drink if I could.

Also BW also tried to get a Macross Plus trademark. Had that succeded they could have just marketed any derivative in the US under a seperate trademark.

But then could we really bear to call the US version of M7 "Macross Plus Seven" or "Macross Seven Plus" when listening Basara singing what sounds like utter nonsense in English is clearly a negative. Or the frustration of how "Macross Plus Zero" could equal Macross mathematically, but not spiritually.

EDIT: I have a bad feeling something's coming up at Comic Con to change this situation.

Its People! Protoculture is People! HG and the Military are using otaku to fuel F-14s that transform into giant robots to fight aliens the size of ... mice.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/mem...dc271b1d5fa.png