Robotech and HG License Debates

[EXO]

Adding Yammies to Wal-Mart shelves means fans would have the options to 1) go to Walmart and buy a Yammie with a tiny HG sticker with $2.50 added to the price to cover HG's trademark or 2) order an imported Yammie and pay $10 in shipping costs.

Even if HG had BW's blessing to merchandise, you would never see Yamato valks in walmart. If HG/Toynami had that kind of merchandising muscles then maybe Big West would have already signed. People think that once they shake hands then we'll all be happier buying toys and DVDs in the free and clear.

I for one haven't seen one toy from Toynami in Target or Walmart. Maybe I don't cruise the toy aisles as much anymore since I lost interest in any toys those stores sell, so please anyone correct me if I'm wrong. But with the various other licenses Toynami holds have you seen any of their Voltrons, Futurama, Bleach toys in retail stores? That's what I mean when I ask what sort of benefit do you think it would be for Big West to make a deal with HG? And what sort of benefit would it be to us fans? Did the Beta cost us any less money since it was distributed by a domestic company?

The Robotech/Macross toys Toynami makes are done in limited quantities, not so we can enjoy the low sales number, its so THEY can market it at a higher price because of it lower run. If they can shove an endless supply to retails stores then they would have done it already.

Of course it easy for them to say they reached out their hands to Big West but BW was unwilling. That's like me saying that I'll send Mel Gibson a letter that if he gives me a lousy .01 percent of his Passion of the Christ earnings then I'll go outside and beat up anyone that calls him a nazi... Thanks but no thanks...

if you're wondering... that would come out to $100,000

[VFTF1]

HG just wants money from trademarked product sales, they don't want to participate in any "joint effort" to produce the next Macross series of anything.

That's partially why I don't like them. They want money for other people's work for no effort on their part. And when they do make an effort - it's only to destroy other people's work.

Look did Yamato and Bandai ever tell Karamorii how to design his mecha or take part in any creavtive "joint effort" in making Frontier? NO, they just sold the toys.

Not true.

There are pictures here on MW showing Kawamori sitting around with the Bandai staff working on the VF-25. As for Yamato - it is actually mind boggling how anybody could think that they "just sold the toys." They actually revolutionized the toys; they came up with perfect transformation VF-1s, after experimenting. They were the ones pushing the envelop on R&D - taking huge risks and potentially fatal losses to their credibility as a producer (QC nightmares etc).

Meanwhile, Toynami and Bandai just took the easy route of making crappy new toys (Toynami MP and 1/100) or reissuing the nostalgic Chunkies (Bandai).

So - wrong on all counts. Yamato didn't "just sell toys" - it lifted up the entire market. And Bandai didn't "just sell toys" - it worked side by side with Kawamori to make something that would appeal to a broad cross section (models for accuracy nuts, DX for durability) as well as having actually sponsored Macross Frontier and thereby brought a new excellent Macross series out after - what? - a decade - of no series.

HG would still have ZERO as in 0% creative control over Macross.

Yes - but if they were entitled to a cut of the profits from Yamato Valkyrie - that would basically - IMO - mean that Yamato valkyrie would have to cost roughly 30 to 50% MORE than they do now.

It's not enough to just "allow" these things over to the USA legitamitely. For a company to do that on a truly vast scale that would allow for minimizing retail costs, they would HAVE TO tie it to a cartoon or DVD release or SOMETHING.

So this is actually a completely false vision - that it's just going to be the way it is now with HG getting a cut.

NOBODY would sell Yamato valkyries if HG was entitled to a cut because the things are hardly profitable as is. The Yammies are a huge success story IMO - and if there was an effective HG TAX on them and no mass marketing mechanism - they die.

And who would do the mass marketing? Well - that would bring us back to square one: bringing Macross over to the USA, dubbing - the whole nine yards.

The best thing HG can do is just leave Macross alone and go away.

Adding Yammies to Wal-Mart shelves means fans would have the options to 1) go to Walmart and buy a Yammie with a tiny HG sticker with $2.50 added to the price to cover HG's trademark or 2) order an imported Yammie and pay $10 in shipping costs.

Not possible.

To get Yammies on Walmart shelves would mean what I wrote above -which in turn would mean SOMEBODY would have to heavily invest in sponsoring the series to come over to the USA and to do a proper marketing campaign and to mass import and distribute at a scale practically equivalent to what Hasbro does with Transformers.

Do you see HG doing that?

Do you see Toynami products in Walmart?

If HG got a cut of the action all that would effectively mean is that you'd have your imported Yammies turned away at the border while your domestic USA hobby retailers like BBTS would be charging you EVEN MORE for their HG-approved, HG-Stickered Yammies and other Macross products.

It would not be good.

Pete

[EXO]

and if there was an effective HG TAX on them and no mass marketing mechanism - they die.

Pete

Sadly this is truer than you know... It breaks my heart...

[Einherjar]

Harmony Gold wouldn't be the one deciding when Macross series would be brought over. Bandai or whoever BW hires to distribute would. Even if HG was placed in charge of distribution there would just be even more economic incentive for HG to get all the Macross merchandise out to the market ASAP and sell the stuff themselves. Besides HG has shown time and time again that they are much more content selling stuff other people made so they would never put money into producing competing Shadow sequels when they could make easy money from the sale of the second largest mecha franchise in the world to consumers worldwide.

HG wants to make money from Macross, but not to the extent of compromising Robotech. They still have big plans for their franchise that could be ruined if they don't use any leverage they have to prevent releases from getting out of control. That's why I said they'd let everything besides the DVDs come out first, to give them a window of opportunity to finish the LAMR and, using the money they're getting from their cut of the merchandise, finish Shadow Rising first. And you know how HG can get carried away with stuff like trademarks and licensing. If a deal is going to be made, they'll demand a lot of compromises that would favor them.

If Hollywood can get Akira Toriyama to promote Dragonball: Evolution without having a heart attack from what he saw, they can probably get Mari Iijima too with enough money.

[Freiflug88]

Of course HG would want to work with BW.... but getting into business with HG would in no way benefit them. BW is churning out successful new products that are huge marketing machines and they eventually make their money without an international distributor. This website alone is an example of the diverse worldwide interest in Macross, old and new (diversity not popularity, this website in no way can represent what the international market profit is).

True, Macross is profitable enough in Japan. The whole point of going along with HG trademark deal for once is to make additional profits by marketing to international fans though. The popularity of this website and Macross fansubs is evidence that their is market potential outside of Japan that is not being profited from.

you don't want a company with bullying tactics to split the profit with.

Tough. You can't always chose your business associates like you can with friends.

if they were entitled to a cut of the profits from Yamato Valkyrie - that would basically - IMO - mean that Yamato valkyrie would have to cost roughly 30 to 50% MORE than they do now.

Doubt it. From what I heard about ADV's deal with HG, ADV pays a flat fee of $2.50 for using the Harmony Gold trademark on the Macross products. ADV doesn't even really pay the $2.50 they just tack on the $2.50 to their selling price to pass the expense over to the consumer though. Now who would complain about paying an extra $2.50 for a Yamato that already costs around $100?

It's not enough to just "allow" these things over to the USA legitamitely. For a company to do that on a truly vast scale that would allow for minimizing retail costs, they would HAVE TO tie it to a cartoon or DVD release or SOMETHING.

And who would do the mass marketing? Well - that would bring us back to square one: bringing Macross over to the USA, dubbing - the whole nine yards.

Bandai would no doubt do the dubbing and mass marketing. HG trademark or not Bandai would oversee Macross distrubition just like they do with Gundam. As for the HG trademark Bandai just needs to get a signed agreement on an fixed rate just like ADV did then their free to distribute their Macross DVDs and toys as they see fit without interruption from HG.

Not possible.

To get Yammies on Walmart shelves would mean what I wrote above -which in turn would mean SOMEBODY would have to heavily invest in sponsoring the series to come over to the USA and to do a proper marketing campaign and to mass import and distribute at a scale practically equivalent to what Hasbro does with Transformers.

Did you forget that you brought up Walmart as an example first? I do agree that Walmart would never market the highend Yammies though. Bandai VFs on the other hand could definitely make it to Walmart if there $20 Gudam's models are any indication.

http://www.walmart.com/catalogproduct.do?product_id=8071345

If HG got a cut of the action all that would effectively mean is that you'd have your imported Yammies turned away at the border while your domestic USA hobby retailers like BBTS would be charging you EVEN MORE for their HG-approved, HG-Stickered Yammies and other Macross products.

1) Imported Macross goods can and will only be turned away at the border if they are in large quantities for an obvious resale. Having HG-approved Yammies for sale in the USA isn't going to change that.

2) Big Boyz Toys (BBTS) markets only Remote Control kits and accessories. They don't sell any transforming mecha toys. Are you telling me Yamato has some RC VF that I am unaware of?

HG wants to make money from Macross, but not to the extent of compromising Robotech. They still have big plans for their franchise that could be ruined if they don't use any leverage they have to prevent releases from getting out of control. That's why I said they'd let everything besides the DVDs come out first, to give them a window of opportunity to finish the LAMR and, using the money they're getting from their cut of the merchandise, finish Shadow Rising first. And you know how HG can get carried away with stuff like trademarks and licensing. If a deal is going to be made, they'll demand a lot of compromises that would favor them.

I see where you getting at. That's what everyone supects, but I have only heard of HG demanding a cut of the profits and nothing about compromises on what, when, how Macross stuff would be released according. If HG did start adding demands and compromises like that at the negotiating table then it would no doubt be a deal breaker though.

[Duke Togo]

I cannot believe you guys are still arguing over this. Its 2009. We can EASILY order any and all Macross merchandise online, and we get high definition subtitle releases of Macross productions not long after they are released.

I mean, really, who cares about HG and Robotech at this point? It doesn't matter anymore, it really doesn't.

[VFTF1]

I mean, really, who cares about HG and Robotech at this point? It doesn't matter anymore, it really doesn't.

I hope you're right.

Did you forget that you brought up Walmart as an example first? I do agree that Walmart would never market the highend Yammies though. Bandai VFs on the other hand could definitely make it to Walmart if there $20 Gudam's models are any indication.

http://www.walmart.com/catalogproduct.do?product_id=8071345

The page doesn't open on the product - but if the "20 usd Gundam model" is a "Bandai USA Highgrade" kit or something of the sort - then that's a good indication of what ther problem is:

Namely that as much I hate to say it... but the US market is not the Japanese market; it's worse. It has lower standards and poor taste - at least in my judgement. Bandai Gundam models are a perfect example. The stuff Bandai brought over to the USA, when compared to the Gundam product they had going in Japan, is terrible - was terrible and is terrible.

Now, I don't "fault" them for it. And it's not "always" a golden rule that American stuff is "worse" than Japanese. There's plenty of great American stuff out there.

But by and large - whenever a film, animated series or toy has been brought in to the USA, it's gone from better to worse - and Gundams are a great example.

Unless, of course, it has been brought to the US by someone who knew enough to appreciate the original for what it was and sell it as it was.

Big Boyz Toys (BBTS) markets only Remote Control kits and accessories. They don't sell any transforming mecha toys. Are you telling me Yamato has some RC VF that I am unaware of?

I think we're confusing ourselves here. I meant BigBadToystore by BBTS, not Big Boyz Toys.

Doubt it. From what I heard about ADV's deal with HG, ADV pays a flat fee of $2.50 for using the Harmony Gold trademark on the Macross products. ADV doesn't even really pay the $2.50 they just tack on the $2.50 to their selling price to pass the expense over to the consumer though. Now who would complain about paying an extra $2.50 for a Yamato that already costs around $100?

I don't think you can make a parallel comparisson between - correct me if I'm wrong - but animated DVDs and Macross toys made by Yamato.

First of all - before we even get to the "HG gets a cut of the profit" problem - let's be clear about something completely different:

The Yamato Macross products we (or at least I and lots of others here) love couldn't be sold at US retail toy outlets EVEN IF all the licensing issues were resolved.

Why?

Because they have sharp points, small parts, and generally do not fulfill a multitude of American toy safety laws. Yamato would therefore have to radically retool them to fit those safety laws OR the item would have to be sold as an Adult Collectible - and clearly labelled as such.

So even if you saw them at Walmart - it wouldn't be in the toy aisle.

And if you did see them on the toy aisle, it would be in a terrible state - one that is in accordance with toy safey laws and therefore not in accordance with the standards of accuracy to line art and aesthetics of Real Robots that we've come to expect.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are a ton of problems above and beyond the licensing issue that would make it hard to legally bring this stuff to the USA on a wider basis.

The licensing problem just complicates it.

In the end, for me personally, since I haven't lived in the USA since 2003, it's kind of a far off distant matter that doesn't affect me. But it is still something I find interesting.

Pete

[Einherjar]

I see where you getting at. That's what everyone supects, but I have only heard of HG demanding a cut of the profits and nothing about compromises on what, when, how Macross stuff would be released according. If HG did start adding demands and compromises like that at the negotiating table then it would no doubt be a deal breaker though.

HG doesn't have tell the public everything that is happening with the company, it's their right. You think that whenever the crew talks about it they're telling you the whole truth rather than what they want you to know or think regarding Robotech? Every company has at least two sides to them, a public side, which is designed by them to be a more positive representation of themselves and is seen the most by the public, and a private side, which is a more realistic view of the company from the inside but is rarely shown. Unfortunately, people like Tommy and Kevin speaking during official events and conversations may represent the company's public side. They've been awfully close to the fandom in the last few years, sounding like they're one of the fans, trustworthy people you can ask questions about Robotech and Macross to, and people really concerned about the fans in a very Big Brother like relationship. Their enthusiasm and optimism could be all an act to get people to believe in a future for the franchise while distracting them from trouble HG might be going through. They've served the company well if all of it really is just for show and the public (fandom) believes in every word of it.

Prior to MacF, HG was probably hoping the series ban outside of Japan would hurt them enough to eventually force them to reconsider negotiations. Since they've been waiting anxiously for BW to accept any kind of deal they offer, they probably have a strategy set up to take advantage of said deal immediately after it's made; one that would catch the other party off guard but would be acceptable under the agreement they just made. The problem is that since they've always been kind of underhanded in the past, BW probably knows that already.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

Ok, which one of you is really Tom Bateman.

[Macross007]

Ok, which one of you is really Tom Bateman.

So you think also some Robotech fans have infiltrated MW and are trying give a free pass to HG.

[Radd]

Kinda think he was making a joke there.

[VF5SS]

I think we have a winner.

[Macross007]

I think we have a winner.

You onwed me sir.

[EXO]

Of course HG would want to work with BW.... but getting into business with HG would in no way benefit them. BW is churning out successful new products that are huge marketing machines and they eventually make their money without an international distributor. This website alone is an example of the diverse worldwide interest in Macross, old and new (diversity not popularity, this website in no way can represent what the international market profit is).

True, Macross is profitable enough in Japan. The whole point of going along with HG trademark deal for once is to make additional profits by marketing to international fans though. The popularity of this website and Macross fansubs is evidence that their is market potential outside of Japan that is not being profited from.

Dude, you totally missed my point and feel like youre choosing to... because it fits your way of thinking. But the point is that HG's trademark and any additional profits they can pull won't make any possible dent in Big West's sales. HG or Toynami is not Mattel or Hasbro. They don't have the internatinal push that Big West would need to even think about needing their distribution. It's not like before when there was no internet to push your product. Even Toynami and HG is proud of the fact they do no actual advertising for their own products, why would they push Big Wests or even why would Big West think that HG would actually put money to advertising their products?

And do you for a minute think that Macrossworld is that popular with most Macross fans? I'm sure a lot of Macross fans don't come to these forums. Here's a good way to measure the popularity of Macrossworld. Go to facebook and search Macross groups. You'll see that the Macrossworld group page is one of the smallest if not THE smallest Macross groups on that site. The number of people that post on Macrossworld is miniscule compared to the number of actual fans.

you don't want a company with bullying tactics to split the profit with.

Tough. You can't always chose your business associates like you can with friends.

Ummm... I think you got it backwards... you choose people that you do millions of dollars very carefully. And it seems to me that Big West has a choice because guess what.... they CHOOSE not to do business with them.

[Freiflug88]

I cannot believe you guys are still arguing over this. Its 2009. We can EASILY order any and all Macross merchandise online, and we get high definition subtitle releases of Macross productions not long after they are released.

Ordering Imports online isn't for all of us. I got my Dad to order me a Perfect Grade 1/60 Wing Gundam Zero from some online Hobby shop years ago when I was still in Middle school. His credit card was charged, but we never received any news about my Gundam model other then it had been shipped out of Japan. After that I said screw imports and just went to Toys R Us and just bought a 1/144 Zero for around $35. I personally don't trust ordering imports from online retailers and I wouldn't put down what little money I have for merchandise unless I can pick up then and there at the store or vender table at the con. So I really do care about the BW-HG situation that prevents all the Macross merchandise from coming to our shore. .

The page doesn't open on the product - but if the "20 usd Gundam model" is a "Bandai USA Highgrade" kit or something of the sort - then that's a good indication of what ther problem is:

Namely that as much I hate to say it... but the US market is not the Japanese market; it's worse. It has lower standards and poor taste - at least in my judgement. Bandai Gundam models are a perfect example. The stuff Bandai brought over to the USA, when compared to the Gundam product they had going in Japan, is terrible - was terrible and is terrible.

In my experience the American 1/144 High grade gundams I bough from Toys R Us and the imported Japanese 1/144 High Grade gundams I bought from vendors in Dealer room showrooms were practically identical in quality and price when I bought them for around $35 a piece back in 1999/2000. Honestly the only difference I found was in what language was printed on the box and instructions. What I found though was that retailers only carry the 1/114 High Grade which are good enough for the average American consumer. For the serious hobbyists interested in the in the larger and more expensive High Grade EX and Perfect Grade Bandais though, the serious hobby shops, dealer rooms, and online vendors are the only places to find them here in the states. I think its just that the average American consumer has lower standards and expectations then the Japanese consumer. Over here in America we are happy enough building small inexpensive plastic gundam models over investing $200 and several days into constructing a large 1/60 scale Gundam with LEDs and other gimmicks.

I think we're confusing ourselves here. I meant BigBadToystore by BBTS, not Big Boyz Toys.

Abbreviations will do that. I googled "BBTS hobby shop" and was surprised to find Big Boyz Toyz selling only RC kits. I am dispointed though after hoping you were referring to some new awesome RC VF jet made by Yamato. Then again I should have realized that RC jets wouldn't sell well in the crowded cities of Japan.

Because they have sharp points, small parts, and generally do not fulfill a multitude of American toy safety laws. Yamato would therefore have to radically retool them to fit those safety laws OR the item would have to be sold as an Adult Collectible - and clearly labelled as such.

You do have a point there. The High Quality Yamato's would be right next to the Perfect Grade Bandai kits in only the serious hobby shops, dealer rooms, and online vendors. Not in retail toy aisles.

I am not really interested in the expensive Yamatos personally though. I am much more interested buying Macross DVDs and some inexpensive VFs here in the states, because I hate ordering imports and downloading unofficial fansubs online that don't support the anime makers. I would gladly pay extra for HG's stupid trademark if that's what it takes for an official American release of 7, Zero, and Frontier merchandise so I can physically buy Maross stuff somewhere here in America.

Dude, you totally missed my point and feel like youre choosing to... because it fits your way of thinking. But the point is that HG's trademark and any additional profits they can pull won't make any possible dent in Big West's sales. HG or Toynami is not Mattel or Hasbro. They don't have the internatinal push that Big West would need to even think about needing their distribution. It's not like before when there was no internet to push your product. Even Toynami and HG is proud of the fact they do no actual advertising for their own products, why would they push Big Wests or even why would Big West think that HG would actually put money to advertising their products?

"But the point is that HG's trademark and any additional profits they can pull won't make any possible dent in Big West's sales." Exactly if HG's trademark doen't hurt sales why not work with HG and their stupid trademark. Like it or not if Big West IF and I mean IF BW decided to go international with Macross they would have no choice, but to agree with HG on a payment for there trademark. You also want to know why I think HG might put some money in advertising that Macross merchandise is now for sale? Simple, to let all those people downloading fansubs via torrents and the usual back channels know that Macross is now available officially in America. HG may not spend much for advertising per say, but their still vigilant about illegal downloading and torrenting of the anime they profit from.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Freiflug88

[RedWolf]

I cannot believe you guys are still arguing over this. Its 2009. We can EASILY order any and all Macross merchandise online, and we get high definition subtitle releases of Macross productions not long after they are released.

I mean, really, who cares about HG and Robotech at this point? It doesn't matter anymore, it really doesn't.

This! On other Macross Productions with subtitles the point is making them available to the market.

The legal compromise is even if you download we still buy dvds/blu-rays and the manga volumes to support the original creators.

Freiflug88 you do not have enough legal and business comprehension from my observation.

What HG is doing is blocking BW from the international market. Now that's an intellectual property rights violation. Tokyo Pop once got the license to publish Macross 7 Trash from BW. But they paid HG to distribute in North America. BW certainly got mad over this and cut business with Tokyo Pop.

There is a legal precedent to BW and HG's attempts to close the international market.Tsuburaya vs Chaiyo showed that the original creator and owner of the intellectual property can win against foreign companies trying to steal the intellectual property and blocking them from the market.

Like HG, Chaiyo's bread and butter is somebody else's creation. The courts (plural) decisions slammed them and led to their financial ruin.

Now I don't have sympathy for HG's parasitic practices such a fate is what they deserve. BW can take them on based on the Tokyo Court decision if so they feel to expand their market internationally.

Edited July 20, 2009 by RedWolf

[EXO]

"But the point is that HG's trademark and any additional profits they can pull won't make any possible dent in Big West's sales." Exactly if HG's trademark doen't hurt sales why not work with HG and their stupid trademark. Like it or not if Big West IF and I mean IF BW decided to go international with Macross they would have no choice, but to agree with HG on a payment for there trademark. You also want to know why I think HG might put some money in advertising that Macross merchandise is now for sale? Simple, to let all those people downloading fansubs via torrents and the usual back channels know that Macross is now available officially in America. HG may not spend much for advertising per say, but their still vigilant about illegal downloading and torrenting of the anime they profit from.

Wow... just wow... the point is to go into business with someone that can HELP your product... which in dealing with HG won't bring in enough of a significant take to warrant the headache of someone already trying to say that they already own your creations. It would be a definite hurt for Big West to even open that door up for HG for any reason.

And Macross IS already international without a foreign distributor, with or without torrents, bootlegs or HG. Just because you can't get it in English doesn't mean its not a worldwide success. I can buy any Macross Frontier bluray, Macross toy or model or CDs that I want right now. Again, why would they get into bed tha's more about taking a piece than actually helping sales?

[Jasonc]

And Macross IS already international without a foreign distributor, with or without torrents, bootlegs or HG. Just because you can't get it in English doesn't mean its not a worldwide success. I can buy any Macross Frontier bluray, Macross toy or model or CDs that I want right now. Again, why would they get into bed tha's more about taking a piece than actually helping sales?

This is probably the reason why BW hasn't even bothered talking to HG. Wether or not everyone trusts the internet for purchasing, the fact is, there are more and more people that do everyday, and the commerce and internet buying traffic is growing exponentially. BW knows that wether or not there's someone working here in the U.S. selling there stuff for a cut of it, it wouldn't matter. They sell it over here anyways. In just going to the AX 09 con, there were so many cosplayers of Macross Frontier, and some of Mac7, you'd think it was a huge mainstream release here in the U.S. Now let me ask you, how many cosplayers of Shadow Chronicles do you see? These aren't the tell all proof, but a damn good case why you'll never see BW working with the same people that they feel (wether right or wrong) cut them out by taking the name Macross. Macross has a world market, and it's exclusively for Japan. It doesn't need to "sleep with the enemy" to survive. HG does their business in there way, and they are successful, and BW, Yamato, and all those associated only in Japan do business their way, and they have their own success.

[Einherjar]

Now let me ask you, how many cosplayers of Shadow Chronicles do you see? These aren't the tell all proof, but a damn good case why you'll never see BW working with the same people that they feel (wether right or wrong) cut them out by taking the name Macross. Macross has a world market, and it's exclusively for Japan. It doesn't need to "sleep with the enemy" to survive. HG does their business in there way, and they are successful, and BW, Yamato, and all those associated only in Japan do business their way, and they have their own success.

Seriously? I haven't been to that many conventions recently, but there really has been little to no Shadow Chronicles cosplayers at all for the last 3 years? That's surprising, I thought for sure there are some folks out there were interested in doing a Marcus Rush, Scott Bernard (dirty hair version), and Rick Hunter (old guy version). Maia, Janice, and Ariel would probably be easy since they share the same proportions and clothing style. I thought there were people very enthusiastic watching it for the first time until the times forced a second or third viewing. There was that youtube video with the guy in the Cyclone costume recently, so I assumed other people were keeping the dream alive besides that fish head hat guy.

[Jasonc]

I have yet to see a Shadow Chronicles cosplayer. It doesn't necessarily mean the movie was unsuccessful, but take Macross Frontier for example. It isn't advertised here at all, has no english dub, and yet, every convention I've been to, there are cosplayers, tons of model kits for sale, people who sing the songs, and loyal followings that can't wait for more. This, all in the country where they aren't allowed.

[VFTF1]

I hate ordering imports and downloading unofficial fansubs online that don't support the anime makers. I would gladly pay extra for HG's stupid trademark if that's what it takes for an official American release of 7, Zero, and Frontier merchandise so I can physically buy Maross stuff somewhere here in America.

ILLOGICAL.

You don't like downloading fansubs (which are free and where fans make NO MONEY) because you want to support the maker of the anime .....

so you'd prefer to PAY HG a cut of the DVD profit???

But...

HG ISN'T the anime maker.

Why would you want to pay HG if you want to "support the anime maker?" HG Has nothing to do with making the anime.

Ergo - you're actually supporting the anime maker by downloading a fansub - because you are spreading (marketing) that anime - spreading name recognition and letting the foriegn fanbase know that something cool is out there are worth watching - which also leads people to toys, models, figures etc.

Ordering Imports online isn't for all of us. I got my Dad to order me a Perfect Grade 1/60 Wing Gundam Zero from some online Hobby shop years ago when I was still in Middle school. His credit card was charged, but we never received any news about my Gundam model other then it had been shipped out of Japan. After that I said screw imports and just went to Toys R Us and just bought a 1/144 Zero for around $35. I personally don't trust ordering imports from online retailers and I wouldn't put down what little money I have for merchandise unless I can pick up then and there at the store or vender table at the con. So I really do care about the BW-HG situation that prevents all the Macross merchandise from coming to our shore. .

Well, as a retailer who has thousands invested in an import/export business, I have a different view of the matter.

But for the sake of argument, I had a very similar situation with a certain online hobby store a long LONG time ago, although it was for only about 65 bucks. I didn't even get a shipping confirmation. They got my 65 bucks.

But that was in the early days and I think my order just got lost in their mess.

In any event - in my view, there is almost zero risk in shopping online nowadays. Online vendors have too much invested in their businesses to allow customers to feel like they risk sending money into a black hole - never to hear of the purchased product, or the money, ever again.

I think its just that the average American consumer has lower standards and expectations then the Japanese consumer. Over here in America we are happy enough building small inexpensive plastic gundam models over investing $200 and several days into constructing a large 1/60 scale Gundam with LEDs and other gimmicks.

Here we agree - to a point.

Namely - I actually DON'T think the average American has lower standards. If that was true, then there wouldn't be a hobby market in America that was as vibrant as it is.

The problem is that corporations like Bandai don't give a squat about the American market, or really about the European market either. No Japanese hobby/anime company does. None of them use the business model they are using in Japan on the US market.

Maybe this is because they realize that you are indeed right in your view of the "average American consumer" - maybe that's true...

Or maybe it's just because they can't be bothered...?

Who knows.

You also want to know why I think HG might put some money in advertising that Macross merchandise is now for sale? Simple, to let all those people downloading fansubs via torrents and the usual back channels know that Macross is now available officially in America. HG may not spend much for advertising per say, but their still vigilant about illegal downloading and torrenting of the anime they profit from.

But what if people - like me - are not interested in watching the "official" Macross with its' english language dubs and zany translation?

What if I want to watch the Japanese version because I like to watch things in their original?

What we're basically getting into here is a debate about property rights vs. the notion of trademark/licensing as something that limits property rights and artificially tries to prop up or protect someone's profit margin at the expense of freedom of speech.

Harmony Gold has no right to force me or any other American to acknowledge that the official Macross Saga english dub DVD is the "real" Macross and forbid us under the pretense of law from enjoying the original Macross subbed for free by fans.

They are using arcane trademark/licensing laws and a contract that no one has ever seen or read the contents of to try to monopolize a market which isn't theirs to monopolize.

I think that at some point, the whole notion that what they are doing is "legal" needs to be challenged. In the United States, the Constitution is ultimately the highest law of the land, and I don't see the first amendment as saying "Congress shall make no law that infringes on the right of free speech...except for laws about copyright and licensing which would allow certain companies to dictate to people that they can't watch foriegn movie productions in the original with free fan subs but instead have to go buy a dubbed DVD. Hah hah."

Copyright and trademark laws are nice and swell in terms of the intention of protecting the intellectual property rights of people who come up with stuff - BUT -

first of all - some intellectual property becomes public domain after the passage of a certain period of time, and/or especially when it becomes popular enough.

Do we really need to give the proverbial Fred Flinstone a cut of the profit from every tire made for a bycicle or car in America because the proverbial Fred Flinstone invented the wheel?

In the end, intellectual property rights have a tendency to protect themselves, without the law - because if you have invented A, and nobody else understands it or knows how to do it but everybody WANTS it or wants to use it - then you profit from your invention - you start selling it.

And of course the competition is going to copy A, take it apart and try to come up with something similar.

Should we stop them?

Should we shut down every computer company beyond Apple because - hey! - they copied Steve Jobs' idea for a PC! (?)

Is competition illegal?

Should Walmart have sued K-mart for using the word "Mart" in its' names?

Are words property?

Now - I'm not saying that there is a cut-and-dry case "in favor" of what is known as "internet piracy" - there isn't. But what I am saying is that we need to be careful here when coming to a conclusion regarding what is legal and what isn't, and what should be legal and what shouldn't.

In my view, the situation with HG is pretty simple:

They have no product that is theirs. They don't make anything. They are not endeavoring to make anything. All they have is a licensing agreement and an army of lawyers.

I'm not particularly worried about a company like that because when a company has a piece of paper and a bunch of lawyers as their primary weaopn - that company is pretty much on the rocks anyways.

And the notion that "cutting a deal" with HG by Big West would mean that people in America would wake up and see VF-1s from Yamato next to Legends class Optimus Prime in the grocery store, turn on the TV and see Macross Zero coming right after the Simpsons, and drive past billboards advertising May'N and Megumi concerts coming to your local football stadium next week... is false.

What it would actually mean would be that Hobby shops in America would STOP importing Yamato and othe Macross products because the 5 dollars they SOMETIMES make off of selling these things would have to go to HG.

Meanwhile, HG would of course not mass import them either - because they don't have the resources. And why should they? Once they shut out Yamato macross products totally - they can sell their crappy Toynami.

And they would prefer to ram crappy Toynami down American consumers throats with a comfy profit margin then make the effort of mass importing and mass marketing Yamatos for a measy "2.50 cents" per Valk (as you claim - which IMO is spurious anyways).

So however you want to look at it - Macross fans loose if HG wins.

The future of Macross in a world where HG wins is Doug Bendo.

Pete

Edited July 20, 2009 by VFTF1

[Einherjar]

So however you want to look at it - Macross fans loose if HG wins.

The future of Macross in a world where HG wins is Doug Bendo.

Actually, you just described a future where only HG wins, Doug would still be around ranting on about everything because he's not a part of the creative process. What you're looking for is a future where Doug is in charge of Robotech, basically in the same way as the big bad in the second half of Final Fantasy VI was.

Uh, thank God for the Internet. It's HG's loss if they still can't keep up with progress. They treat it like it's still a new thing.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Einherjar

[chrisk]

...you're actually supporting the anime maker by downloading a fansub - because you are spreading (marketing) that anime - spreading name recognition and letting the foreign fanbase know that something cool is out there are worth watching - which also leads people to toys, models, figures etc.

Living in South East Asia, Robotech was shown... maybe twice(?) on local networks and once on a cable channel (the same network which premiered Shadow Chronicles in Asia)... so there is a general following. However, go to any convention/toy store in the country and you'll be hard pressed to see anyone sell Robotech toys. Macross Classic, Plus Frontier toys, though? They have plenty in varying scales.

If there's any franchise that had a non-existent marketing push, it's Macross and definitely NOT Robotech.

Doug would still be around ranting on about everything because he's not a part of the creative process.

If there's one thing I remember about Doug, it's when he mentioned that Robotech is awesome because it never had to "reinvent" itself the same way Macross did with its later incarnations. Robotech was "perfect" in his eyes, and despite how... crazy Doug can be at times, I can sense he's not the only Robotech fan who thinks that way. I don't know about him, but seeing how the classic Valkyrie evolves in the time line is what makes the franchise fun and constantly fresh. No "Super Shadow Fighters" or the proposed Tommy Yune designed "Gamma Fighter" here...

Namely - I actually DON'T think the average American has lower standards.

See, that's the thing. If the people who watched Transformers 2 said the "CG is awesome/breathtaking" are the same people who watched Shadow Chronicles on Hulu and thought that movie's CG and explosions were "cutting edge", then we have a problem.

Edited July 20, 2009 by chrisk

[anime52k8]

ILLOGICAL.

You don't like downloading fansubs (which are free and where fans make NO MONEY) because you want to support the maker of the anime .....

so you'd prefer to PAY HG a cut of the DVD profit???

But...

HG ISN'T the anime maker.

Why would you want to pay HG if you want to "support the anime maker?" HG Has nothing to do with making the anime.

Ergo - you're actually supporting the anime maker by downloading a fansub - because you are spreading (marketing) that anime - spreading name recognition and letting the foriegn fanbase know that something cool is out there are worth watching - which also leads people to toys, models, figures etc.

BULLSHIT

Downloading a fansubed copy of a show isn’t “spreading the anime,” it is STEALING. No matter how much you try to justify it with circular pseudo-logic, you’re still obtaining a copy of someone’s commercial product without compensation, which is theft.

Now if you were to buy an official release, a portion of the money you pay would go to HG, but you know where the rest of that money goes? To the people who DID make the animation. A portion also goes to the retailer you bought it from, a US retailer. So not only are you putting money into the pockets of the people who made the show and NOT stealing from them, your also supporting an American business (the retailer) which helps OUR economy and keeps taxpaying Americans EMPLOYED.

Also Fan subs added to foreign release DVD’s are also illegal because they’re modifying someone else’s original work without their permission.

But what if people - like me - are not interested in watching the "official" Macross with its' english language dubs and zany translation?

What if I want to watch the Japanese version because I like to watch things in their original?

Gets what, you don’t represent EVERYONE. Other people who AREN’T you might prefer English dubs. And if you want watch it in Japanese with subtitles, you’ll have that option on an official release. You still get your original Japanese audio, and you don’t have to be a parasitic crook. (and don’t try to argue that Fan subs are going to be better than official release subs, I’ve seen a lot of Really good official subs and a lot of INCREADIBLY shitty fan subs.)

What we're basically getting into here is a debate about property rights vs. the notion of trademark/licensing as something that limits property rights and artificially tries to prop up or protect someone's profit margin at the expense of freedom of speech.

What we have here is a debate over the legal status of various copyright and trademark claims perpetuated by an overall lack of firm and complete information. YOU are trying to turn it into a freedom of speech debate in order to Justify your position which boils down to it being ok to break the law as long as it supports your personal view of what’s right.

Harmony Gold has no right to force me or any other American to acknowledge that the official Macross Saga english dub DVD is the "real" Macross and forbid us under the pretense of law from enjoying the original Macross subbed for free by fans.

They are using arcane trademark/licensing laws and a contract that no one has ever seen or read the contents of to try to monopolize a market which isn't theirs to monopolize.

I think that at some point, the whole notion that what they are doing is "legal" needs to be challenged. In the United States, the Constitution is ultimately the highest law of the land, and I don't see the first amendment as saying "Congress shall make no law that infringes on the right of free speech...except for laws about copyright and licensing which would allow certain companies to dictate to people that they can't watch foriegn movie productions in the original with free fan subs but instead have to go buy a dubbed DVD. Hah hah."

HG isn’t FORCING you to acknowledge anything. What they (and BW and any other company) are doing is exercising their right to sell a commercial product under the protection of the law, both from theft and from defamation of they’re brand. That’s what trademark and copyrights laws are for, to make sure that the company who legally owns the rights to something can profit from it and fully control the brand image of that which they own.

HG is also not dictating anything either, FEDERAL LAW is dictating that People in order to access a commercial product they have to provide compensation to the people who have the legal rights to said product.

It’s really quite simple, HG owns the distribution rights to the original show in America. If you want a copy, you have to pay them. If you download a free fan subbed version, you’re stealing it. If you buy a foreign market version, you’re undercutting their ability to profit from something that they own. Same thing with toys: they own the merchandising rights to the original show, so if a manufacturer imports toys without permission form HG, they’re once again undercutting them.

And just because they didn’t CREATE the original show, doesn’t mean they Don’t own it. They paid for it, they have every right to it. Colonel Sanders sold the rights to his restaurant chain, his chicken recipe, and his likeness; by your logic it’s therefore ok to steal chicken from KFC because the company that owns the restaurant didn’t invent the recipe.

Also I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the intent of the First amendment. The first amendment protects freedom of SPEECH, i.e. you as an individual or group have the right to have, support, and promote any idea, viewpoint or belief you want as long as it does not harm someone else or Infringe on someone else’s rights. It DOES NOT give you the right to take other people’s property without their permission.

Protection of freedom of speech means that I have the right to express my opinion through art. It does not mean that you can come along, take the art I made, make copies of it and give it to all your friends without my permission.

Copyright and trademark laws are nice and swell in terms of the intention of protecting the intellectual property rights of people who come up with stuff - BUT -

first of all - some intellectual property becomes public domain after the passage of a certain period of time, and/or especially when it becomes popular enough.

Do we really need to give the proverbial Fred Flinstone a cut of the profit from every tire made for a bycicle or car in America because the proverbial Fred Flinstone invented the wheel?

Ok, first off you’re confusing copyrights with patents. Copyrights only apply to concepts, ideas, statements, etc. actual physical inventions (i.e. the example you give) are subject to patents.

Patents exist to provide a window of opportunity for the inventor of something to have exclusive rights to it where only they profit from it as a reward for doing all the work to develop it.

Copyrights exist to protect the owners of a piece of work. It provides legal assurance that they, and only they, have the rights to distribute, use and modify the work that they own.

A movie is something that’s copyrighted; the DVD it’s on is something that’s Patented. Eventually everyone should have access to the design of the DVD so that people can make improvements and competing designs. The Movie should remain the property of whoever owns it.

In the end, intellectual property rights have a tendency to protect themselves, without the law - because if you have invented A, and nobody else understands it or knows how to do it but everybody WANTS it or wants to use it - then you profit from your invention - you start selling it.

And of course the competition is going to copy A, take it apart and try to come up with something similar.

Should we stop them?

Should we shut down every computer company beyond Apple because - hey! - they copied Steve Jobs' idea for a PC! (?)

Is competition illegal?

Well I’m glad that things work that way in the sugarplum-gumdrop world you live in, but in the real world that’s not how things work. Competition isn’t illegal and should be encouraged, but if you don’t provide protection for those who develop new things, you undermine the progress which drives competition.

Now in the real world: you invent A. people want A so you plan to sell it. Because there is a market for a your competition Copies A. should we stop this? YES. Because when your competition copies A, they are able to take it to market without having to do all the work to develop it. That work cost MONEY, money they didn’t spend which translates to them being able to sell A at a lower price. Your competition steals all your sales because your they sell A at ¾ what you sell A for and everyone goes for the cheaper A. you don’t make a profit, so why did you even bother making A in the first place?

Eventually your competition should have access to A too so that you can’t keep prices artificially high, but you still need a period where you are assured excusive opportunity to profit form something so that it’s actually worth developing in the first place.

But that’s all patents and where not actually talking about patents.

Should Walmart have sued K-mart for using the word "Mart" in its' names?

Are words property?

Now we’re talking about copyright and patents. First, are words property? Well Crime and Punishment is just a collection of words, is it the property of Dostoyevsky?

As for the “Mart” question, that’s Trademark. Trademark is what’s really keeping the rest of Macross out of the US. HG owns the US trademark to the word Macross. And they have a reasonable claim to it, Macross is an important word in Robotech, so they have the right to control that word. It’s called brand image and brand recognition.

The fact is that familiarity with companies and brands are a key to a functioning Capitalist system. Trademarks are vital so that people know that what they’re buying is really coming from whom and where they think it is. Without trademarks, it would be perfectly legal for me to make chocolate bars and slap the Hershey’s logo on them. The reason that’s bad is because I could be throwing brick dust into my knockoff candy for all anyone knows. Trademarks allow companies and brands to create identities that people can recognize and trust.

In the case of Robotech and Macross, HG has the right to own the trademark on the word Macross because it is an integral part of the show. One third of the production is called “the Macross Saga” after all. Because of this, they have the right to control the name. It’s the same as a company controlling the slogan that goes with one of its products. Another production being released by another company under the name Macross could cause people to associate the two even if they’re not related, and that unrelated production could project an image that the HG doesn’t want associated with they’re product. Basically another production using the name Macross interferes with HG’s ability to retain complete control over the property which they own.

Now - I'm not saying that there is a cut-and-dry case "in favor" of what is known as "internet piracy" - there isn't. But what I am saying is that we need to be careful here when coming to a conclusion regarding what is legal and what isn't, and what should be legal and what shouldn't.

Oh it’s quite “cut-and-dry;” downloading animations with fan subs is theft. It should be illegal because it’s theft and just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t give you a free pass to break the law.

Ugh… oh my god I’m tired….

[RedWolf]

In the case of Robotech and Macross, HG has the right to own the trademark on the word Macross because it is an integral part of the show. One third of the production is called “the Macross Saga” after all. Because of this, they have the right to control the name. It’s the same as a company controlling the slogan that goes with one of its products. Another production being released by another company under the name Macross could cause people to associate the two even if they’re not related, and that unrelated production could project an image that the HG doesn’t want associated with they’re product. Basically another production using the name Macross interferes with HG’s ability to retain complete control over the property which they own.

You do realize HG's legal basis is a house cards right? Basing on Tatsunoko giving them a license. Then the Tatsunoko and Big West itself dispute over Macross where Big West won in court.

Therefore Harmony Gold has no right to the Macross name no matter what name trademarking they do.

[Radd]

I bought the Animeigo SDF:M DVDs. I downloaded Macross Frontier. If there was a Japanese released DVD/BluRay set of Frontier with reasonable english subtitles I'd buy that, though I'd prefer a domestic release as DVDs tend to be a lot more expensive in Japan. Instead, more of my money goes towards Macross toys. If I didn't have the Animeigo version of SDF:M, I'd be perfectly happy buying the ADV release and just watching it subtitled rather than dubbed, as is my preference.

Whether it's "right" or "wrong", it works for me. Whether it's legal or not is not my concern until someone takes action legal action against the fansubbers or myself for downloading them. I'm under no delusion that fansubs are my God given right.

It's also good to remember, regardless of our feelings about HG's business practices, they do have certain rights. I'm happy giving them that much. I like the DVD releases, so I bought a set. I don't like their toys, so I import toys I like better.

I'd be fine with HG getting a cut of Yamato's VF-1 toys released in the US. Unfortunately, HG shot their own foot off in 2000 by threatening Yamato and BW when they were going through that awful phase of overreaching on their rights. If they'd acknowledged the limits of their rights back then, in all likelihood they'd be profiting off of the abundance of VF-1 toys on the market now, and indirectly from the resurgence in Macross popularity. HG's actions and declarations back then precluded any chance of cooperation. From BW's perspective, in the current context, HG's actions amount to extortion, and they have more to lose in the long term by working with, or compromising with HG, unless HG withdrew any thoughts of cashing in on Macross productions and merchandise outside the rights Tatsunoko was able to sell them.

Even then, the relationship is pretty sour, and possibly irreconcilable. It's a bit pompous to suggest BW should give in or share in the blame, all things considered.

[Gubaba]

Living in South East Asia, Robotech was shown... maybe twice(?) on local networks and once on a cable channel (the same network which premiered Shadow Chronicles in Asia)... so there is a general following. However, go to any convention/toy store in the country and you'll be hard pressed to see anyone sell Robotech toys. Macross Classic, Plus Frontier toys, though? They have plenty in varying scales.

If there's any franchise that had a non-existent marketing push, it's Macross and definitely NOT Robotech.

What are you complaining about? That sounds like a perfect world!

If there's one thing I remember about Doug, it's when he mentioned that Robotech is awesome because it never had to "reinvent" itself the same way Macross did with its later incarnations. Robotech was "perfect" in his eyes, and despite how... crazy Doug can be at times, I can sense he's not the only Robotech fan who thinks that way. I don't know about him, but seeing how the classic Valkyrie evolves in the time line is what makes the franchise fun and constantly fresh. No "Super Shadow Fighters" or the proposed Tommy Yune designed "Gamma Fighter" here...

I never understood what Doug meant by "reinventing itself." If he were talking about Gundam, it would make sense...Wing, Seed, 00...all of these are reinventions of the original. For Macross? No. Unless "reinvention" just makes means "making sequels." In which case, they TRIED to make Robotech sequels...and they failed, until Shadow Chronicles. Ineptness and bad luck should NOT be mistaken for ideological purity.

[Freiflug88]

Freiflug88 you do not have enough legal and business comprehension from my observation.

What HG is doing is blocking BW from the international market. Now that's an intellectual property rights violation. Tokyo Pop once got the license to publish Macross 7 Trash from BW. But they paid HG to distribute in North America. BW certainly got mad over this and cut business with Tokyo Pop.

There is a legal precedent to BW and HG's attempts to close the international market.Tsuburaya vs Chaiyo showed that the original creator and owner of the intellectual property can win against foreign companies trying to steal the intellectual property and blocking them from the market.

Like HG, Chaiyo's bread and butter is somebody else's creation. The courts (plural) decisions slammed them and led to their financial ruin.

Maybe its just my lack of legal and business comprehension, but I don't see how BW anger at Tokyo Pop for paying HG to distribute Macross 7 Trash could stand as evidence of HG blocking BW from the international market. BW being uncomfortable with HG's mere presence in the market distributing Macross 7 Trash can't be construed as "blocking" by any means especially if it can be shown that HG obtained and distrubited Macross 7 trash in a legitimate matter.

Which brings me to the Macross trademark. Trademark law does not care if the trademark holder is the "original creator" or not only if your the first to apply for the trademark. From what I gathered Chaiyo never had a single legitmate trademark like HG has, despite his claims. Now I am not arguing that HG didn't steal intellectual property just like Chaiyo did when they marketed their Robotech Comics and Videogames pre-2001, but I think its going to be impossible to convince any court that using a legitimate trademark is illegally blocking the original creator BW from the international market. The Tsuburaya vs Chaiyo case is just another example why you don't claim someone else's intellectual property, but it doen't set the precedent for defining "Blocking the original creator from international markets by any means as a crime." Like it or not using someone else's trademarked Name and Logo is privilage not a right even if you happen to be the Original Creator of named franchise.

The legal compromise is even if you download we still buy dvds/blu-rays and the manga volumes to support the original creators.

That is not a legal compromise by any stretch, its just the talk of fans trying to justify their actions on downloading fansubs. I do downloaded anime that is unavailable to me at times, but even when I buy the actual series on DVD later it doesn't legally justify my downloads no matter how "fair and honest" we fans claim it to be.

And Macross IS already international without a foreign distributor, with or without torrents, bootlegs or HG. Just because you can't get it in English doesn't mean its not a worldwide success. I can buy any Macross Frontier bluray, Macross toy or model or CDs that I want right now. Again, why would they get into bed tha's more about taking a piece than actually helping sales?

Its a worldwide success in popularity with Anime fans downloading fansubs, not commercially. That doen't help fans like me who would like to go to legitimate anime vendor outside of Japan and buy Macross Froniter blurays or DVDs right then and there. Its great that you can buy Macross Frontier imports online, but that doesn't help consumers like me who don't trust online shopping and only buys stuff that is physically in front of them at a store or vendor.

ILLOGICAL.

You don't like downloading fansubs (which are free and where fans make NO MONEY) because you want to support the maker of the anime .....

so you'd prefer to PAY HG a cut of the DVD profit???

But...

HG ISN'T the anime maker.

Why would you want to pay HG if you want to "support the anime maker?" HG Has nothing to do with making the anime.

Ergo - you're actually supporting the anime maker by downloading a fansub - because you are spreading (marketing) that anime - spreading name recognition and letting the foriegn fanbase know that something cool is out there are worth watching - which also leads people to toys, models, figures etc.

Just as anime52k8, said download a fansub is not supporting the anime maker. True, people figure it must be a great show if its been snatched over a 100 times on AsianDvdClub.org, but do you honestly think that downloading Macross Fansubs is better from BW then willing buying an HG licnensed DVD given the option?

I know HG is charging a slice of the profit for a trademark of a series that they didn't create, but quess what? I will the one who pays that fee out of his own pocket. BW, Bandai, or Yamato's won't literally be paying HG a cent for their trademark, it will be consumers like me who are willing to spend extra to buy Macross Merchandise at some store counter or vendor table in our countries outside of Japan. Many of us are eagerly willing to spend OUR OWN MONEY to pay for all of BW's business expenses including the HG trademark in exchange for Macross merchandise right in our country, but its considered too much to ask BW to swallow a little pride and make a compromise with HG and their legitimate trademark. Are you telling me BW's own pride as the maker and proper owner of Macross is the only important thing? That the sacrifice and compromises I am willing to make to buy Macross merchandise HG trademark included is worthless and that I my opinion as fan who wants to consume Macross Merchandise locally is meaningless? That denying a small source of revenue to HG really justifies leaving interanational fans without Macross merchandise in their countries?

Even then, the relationship is pretty sour, and possibly irreconcilable. It's a bit pompous to suggest BW should give in or share in the blame, all things considered.

I admit I must sound really pompous, but I won;t deny that I am an angry, no furious Macross fan at BW right now.

[jenius]

You do realize HG's legal basis is a house cards right? Basing on Tatsunoko giving them a license. Then the Tatsunoko and Big West itself dispute over Macross where Big West won in court.

Therefore Harmony Gold has no right to the Macross name no matter what name trademarking they do.

The Tats/BW battle ended with it being confirmed that Tats did have rights to the animation and thus the sell of them to HG was legitimate. What wasn't legitimate was the thought that any sort of intellectual property rights came bundled in that package. As the original Macross is part of Robotech, and is called the Macross Saga, they do have a right to the name.

[VF5SS]

What's Toynami's big announcement?

[RedWolf]

The Tats/BW battle ended with it being confirmed that Tats did have rights to the animation and thus the sell of them to HG was legitimate. What wasn't legitimate was the thought that any sort of intellectual property rights came bundled in that package. As the original Macross is part of Robotech, and is called the Macross Saga, they do have a right to the name.

Sigh~ (legal amateurs are giving me a headache)

It is stipulated in the court ruling that Tatsunoko has distribution rights when it comes to SDFM TV itself only but it does not own Macross designs, story and derivative products. Those are owned by Big West and Studio Nue.

This means HG does not have the right to trademark Macross as their license was given by Tatsunoko.

What HG does is what Chaiyo got sued for by Tsuburaya for every penny they're worth.

Sure IP law is a bit loose in Japan that is why these foreign parasites try to cash in but that does not mean what HG is doing is legally right.

[VFTF1]

BULLSHIT

Downloading a fansubed copy of a show isn’t “spreading the anime,” it is STEALING. No matter how much you try to justify it with circular pseudo-logic, you’re still obtaining a copy of someone’s commercial product without compensation, which is theft.

Now if you were to buy an official release, a portion of the money you pay would go to HG, but you know where the rest of that money goes? To the people who DID make the animation. A portion also goes to the retailer you bought it from, a US retailer.

Um - but I don't live in the USA. So I wouldn't buy it at a retailer in the US anyways. And I would gladly buy it in Poland, except that no retailers sell it.

No retailers sell it because nobody knows about it and there is no market demand for it.

So - what?

Am I supposed to get on an Airplane and fly to Japan to watch each episode of Macross Frontier because there's no market demand for it where I live and so no corporation has saw fit to sub or dub it and introduce it into my market?

Beast Wars Transformers was shown on Polish TV with atrocious dubs.

Was I supposed to watch that instead of watching the original American Beast Wars?

Am I supposed to buy a satellite dish and install it on my roof to recieve all Japanese and American TV stations so I can legally watch an episode of the Simpsons?

I watch the Simpsons on Youtube because I don't get it on TV here. Am I breaking the law? Should I go to jail?

Under Communism - NOTHING was permited/licensed/copyrighted. People would therefore have to illegally bring english and french language books into the country to read them.

Under the system you're proposing - it would basically be a return to that. Nobody can read anything or watch anything.

See - you're assuming that it's actually profitable for companies to broadcast things in EVERY market. It's actually not. Large parts of the globe don't get this stuff; and yet there is always interest in remote parts of the world.

So - should we shut down the internet and tell a large portion of the planet - hey - sorry - you can't watch Macross Zero?

Or maybe we should all patiently sit around and wait for HG and Big West to come to an agreement?

It is not illegal if I buy a book at borders and you see it on my shelf and say "can I borrow that book?" and I say "sure - yes."

Then - you read the book. Did you pay for it? No. Did the writer and publisher get money from you? No. Heck - not even a library got money from you.

How different is that from somebody else buying a DVD and subbing it for free and not charging anybody anything to watch it - with the stipulation that as soon as a licensed copy comes out in their region - to delete it?

Also Fan subs added to foreign release DVD’s are also illegal because they’re modifying someone else’s original work without their permission.

If I buy a Darth Vader action figure and a Barbie doll, and I put Barbie's skirt on Darth Vader and then make a youtube fanfilm called "Darth Vader wears a Barbie Skirt" I have modified the licensed property of Mattel and Lucasfilms without their permission.

Oh - but wait - it would be a FAN FILM for NO PROFIT.

Kind of like the fan subs you can get on the internet which are also done as a non-for-profit service.

These non-for-profit fanservices actually serve to benefit the original producers/creators because they market the product and increase demand for the toys, models and figures - and comics and manga.

Gets what, you don’t represent EVERYONE. Other people who AREN’T you might prefer English dubs. And if you want watch it in Japanese with subtitles, you’ll have that option on an official release. You still get your original Japanese audio, and you don’t have to be a parasitic crook. (and don’t try to argue that Fan subs are going to be better than official release subs, I’ve seen a lot of Really good official subs and a lot of INCREADIBLY shitty fan subs.)

I'm not arguing that fansubs will necessarily be better than the "official release."

I'm arguing something else - namely - there will not be an official release where I live or where a lot of other people live.

And it's not just anime that's like this.

I remember living in the USA, one of the things I loved doing was going to video rental stores and checking out their stash of old B sci-fi and horror movies. Stuff that isn't even available on DVD a lot of times.

Heck - do you know what I've been doing for the last FIVE YEARS in Poland?

Going from store to store LOOKING for Rocky Horror Picture Show. When I was in Berlin - I also looked for it. Maybe I should get on a plane and go to the UK to look for it?

I could spend money on an international/multi-region DVD player to be augmented into my laptop and then import it from the USA....

And no - I haven't downloaded Rocky Horror off the internet - I'm still holding out that I'll find it - somewhere - somehow...

But the point is - lots of this stuff that I want just does not have and will never have an official release.

So what now?

How do I get to see or read what I want to read "legally?"

In reality, the legal points you bring up work well in a mature market where this stuff is par for course. In developing markets - they don't work. If you want anime to develop in a market where it didn't exist before and you DON'T want to invest millions of dollars into market research and marketing campaigns - the internet does it FOR FREE.

And it's free and beneficial not just for the people downloading - but also for the companies who produce the stuff because it does increase demand - it creates and nurtures demand where there was none.

I am arguing that licensing and copyright law has to be changed, has to be globalized and has to take account of the above noted factors. Otherwise it won't be effective when it should be, and will only be a hinderence.

Copyrights exist to protect the owners of a piece of work. It provides legal assurance that they, and only they, have the rights to distribute, use and modify the work that they own.

A movie is something that’s copyrighted; the DVD it’s on is something that’s Patented. Eventually everyone should have access to the design of the DVD so that people can make improvements and competing designs. The Movie should remain the property of whoever owns it.

Ok - so let the owner of the Copyright (not the movie) come over here, invest a couple hundred thousand in setting up a legal office, start paying taxes as a legal entity, register their property, copyright it over here, invest a couple more hundred thousand bucks in preparing it for this market and stick it on a shelf for 20 bucks at the local DVD retail outlet near where I live.

When they do that - I will gladly walk across the street and buy it.

But they won't do it for reasons of economies of scale - or lack thereof. The potential profit from getting a few people like me to walk into a retail store and buy a DVD is MINISCULE compared to the HUGE cost of setting up shop and doing that here.

I'm sure it's the same in other countries.

But - these same copyright owners can look at their balance sheets and look at how much merchandise gets purchased by people in countries that HAVE NEVER HAD OFFICIAL RELEASES.

The numbers run into a few million dollars.

Do the producers, owners of copyrights and everyone else in the business chain REALLY want the flow of profits to STOP so they can go hound some guy sitting in their aunt's basement in Bulgaria or Moscow or where-ever and arrest him for downloading fan-subbed Macross Frontier episodes?

Ridiculous.

Now in the real world: you invent A. people want A so you plan to sell it. Because there is a market for a your competition Copies A. should we stop this? YES. Because when your competition copies A, they are able to take it to market without having to do all the work to develop it.

Well - then why don't we just arrest every one here for using the alphabet.

Come to think of it - did you "do the work to develop" the computer you're using?

You're allowing the labor theory of value to cloud your judgement - this notion that the property holders of things are those who "do work" to get the thing "made."

But in reality - most ideas are not unique - they are based on ideas that came before, and were modified in new ways. And most things are build from other things which other people's "work" helped provide.

Finally - if someone markets a product - they have to accept that a secondary market in that product will develop.

The patent laws are actually a hinderence to development IMO.

Again - the market doesn't need "patent protection." An invention will protect itself just fine if left to develop unrestricted. The problem is when people start using laws (like patent and copyright laws) to actually hinder the development of ideas and products.

Now we’re talking about copyright and patents. First, are words property? Well Crime and Punishment is just a collection of words, is it the property of Dostoyevsky?

Dostoyevsky's Estate owns the copyright to Crime and Punishment.

But - oh no.

Crime and Punishment is also a book that apparently has some standing in the world of culture and is considered to generally be a "must read" and "must think about" book and has served to inspire countless plays, portraits, novels, stories, movies etc etc etc. It is often referenced and has entered the general parlance.

Now - sure - Dostoyevki's estate theoretically has the right to go and sue people who somehow use concepts, themes or likenesses thereof from the copyrighted work.

But if they pursued such copyright suits - it would be ridiculous. It is in their interest to have their work last the test of time. It is in their interest to get their stuff out.

But Dostoiveski's estate doesn't have the right to tell me that I can't loan my friend a copy of the book and say "read this i'ts great!"

Does my friend therefore have to write a letter to the publisher saying "hey - can I borrow my pal's book for free and read it?"

Again - copyright and patent laws are arcane - rooted in a world that no longer exists. People need to sit down and rewrite these laws to try to do justice to present realities.

Without trademarks, it would be perfectly legal for me to make chocolate bars and slap the Hershey’s logo on them. The reason that’s bad is because I could be throwing brick dust into my knockoff candy for all anyone knows.

MM...no.

Actually - trademark laws HINDER the capitalist system.

See - this is a convenient boogey man you're throwing up here - but it is very much a "sugar plum world" vision, because in the real world nobody invests time and resources into mass marketing DUDS ON PURPOSE.

Nobody is going to invest millions of dollars in mass marketing knock off Hershey candies with dust inside.

That's insane.

Why would they? They'd LOOSE MONEY.

Hershey doesn't make profits because of its' trademark - Hershey makes profits by providing a chocolate that consumers want at a price their willing to pay for.

If somebody engages in false advertising - not only will they "go to jail" for it - but before the court has even had a chance to decide their chance - they will loose their business and all their money.

In the real world, trademark laws and copyright laws and patents are used by some companies to muscle their competitors and to try to fense off entire markets in certain countries from foriegn competitors.

In the United States, where litigation and tort law are out of control, the capitalist system is actually HAMPERED by all the red tape, not a small portion of which revolves around patents, copyright, tademark and all the rest.

Again - these laws are completely unnecessary. A good product will protect itself.

If people abandon the product due to a change in preference and the business doesn't adjust - no amount of trademarks, copyrights or anything else will help.

Conversely, the lack of trademarks, copyright etc will NOT lead to a situation where you go to buy a Ford, and have to wonder "which Ford is the real ford?"

I mean - it's not like there's not an illegal pirate/knockoff/bootleg market out there anyways. Even in hardware like motor scooters etc.

And yet the "real" products do just fine anyways - because there will always be a segment of the population that wants the real thing.

As for the bootlegs - well - that's always a signal to producers that a market for their goods exist. In most cases, the market is closed off due to bad tax policy or other external factors which make it hard for legal entities to compete with illegal ones.

But the solution to this problem is to abolish laws, not make more of them.

Ultimately - the black market exists not because people are evil and break the law, but because the law is evil and breaks people - making it hard for them to get what they want legally.

Oh it’s quite “cut-and-dry;” downloading animations with fan subs is theft. It should be illegal because it’s theft and just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t give you a free pass to break the law.

But why?

Is the law always right? Who says?

One of the things that defines a free society is that people have the right to question whether the law is good and to disagree with it. There are numerous forms of protesting the law from civil disobediance to voting to public speaking and persuasion.

But the be-all-and-end-all of a debate can't be "well I have the law on my side and you don't! So there! End of discussion!"

The law is something people make for themselves and can be changed if people believe it needs changing.

I believe this is one area of the law that needs changing. Just because the law is arcane, muddled, confused and not suited to the realities of a world that is more connected by the internet doesn't mean that it's to be worshiped without question.

The law is always just something that people write up in order to make an open and just society possible. Debating the law, and changing it are part of an open and just society.

Laws get changed all the time. People even expect it. Tax laws, trade laws - people follow the law while complaining about it, and governments are constantly tinkering with laws trying to make them better and listening to what people have to say about how the laws are working.

It's not just a bunch of words, it's not a "sugar plum vision" - and it's not an issue that will be solved by just saying "they're crooks because the law says so."

The law also says a lot of other stupid things that I'm not allowed to get into because we can't discuss politics.

But the point here is - the law is not God and people are free to think and protest against laws they find unjust- especially if they do it in a non-violent way.

Pete

[Duke Togo]

I can buy any Macross Frontier bluray, Macross toy or model or CDs that I want right now.

This

[peter]

I cannot believe you guys are still arguing over this. Its 2009. We can EASILY order any and all Macross merchandise online, and we get high definition subtitle releases of Macross productions not long after they are released.

I mean, really, who cares about HG and Robotech at this point? It doesn't matter anymore, it really doesn't.

I know, I was as surprised as you. I guess a lot of new fans haven't "seen action" like the debates back in the old days when it wasn't consolidated into one thread. Ha ha, every week there was a new thread trashing HG and Robocrap, and every week, it attracted a fair number of robocrap.com fans over to debate about it. It would get out of control, flame wars started, accusations of trolling, people would get banned, threads would get shut down. A regular battlefield.

I can get anything I want that's Macross-related nowadays. It kind of surprised me that HG hasn't withered away and died already, but Robocrap obviously has a few fans left.

[Radd]

There are certainly still benefits to BW being able to distribute new Macross shows and merchandise internationally. I'd much rather run down to the local anime hobby shop and pick up my Yamato and Bandai toys sans shipping fees. I'd much prefer a legit subtitled DVD/BluRay release of M7, Zero, and Frontier. DVD's cost a lot more in Japan, while tending to contain fewer episodes. At least, that's how it seems to me. Also, no subtitles.

Plus, wish anime now regularly appearing on television, BW would stand to reach a much broader audience than the fans who download fansubs off the net. There's a lot of people who do, but compared to the larger potential market they're a pretty small group. Dubbed Macross Frontier Friday and Saturday nights at 10pm, on Cartoon Network? Macross isn't hurting for fans, but it would get a lot more that way.

I think that's reason enough to favour HG getting out of the way. Even if I've got all of Macross, from SDF:M to Frontier in one form or another, and almost every Macross toy I want covering my computer desk and filling my display cases. If I'd been able to cut shipping costs out of the equation I'd have saved enough money for at least several Valkyries. Nothing to sneeze at, even if I'm not exactly hurting for Macross toys right now.