Robotech and HG License Debates

[chrisk]

What I find interesting is that we have a number of members who post almost EXCLUSIVELY in the Robotech thread. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but there are quite a few people that I see a lot here, but never in any of the "Macross-centric" portions of the site....which strikes me as a little strange.

Hmm... I'd like to believe that everything good has already been said of the Macross franchise in this board. But regarding the continuing existence of Robotech bitchin'? My guess... it's fun to question why Harmony Gold does what it does to its license, fans, etc..? The mods are kind enough to allow the discussion of all-things-Robotech in this thread in the interest of keeping the board clean.

I don't think he should fix the capslock, its his own unique signature. Its just wouldn't be same to see MEMO's posts in lowercase.

MEMO makes good points, but its the grammar that bugs me.

Kinda like the people always ranting about the the end of world, global warming, the return of Christ, alien invasions, new world order, etc. because deep down part of them wants it to happen sooner so they can shout "I told you so."

Well, folks were right about Robotech 3000...

[Gubaba]

Hmm... I'd like to believe that everything good has already been said of the Macross franchise in this board.

Well then, we might as well just close up shop and go home.

Anyway, you CAN'T be serious...a new VF-1 technical book, TWO magazines devoted EXCLUSIVELY to Macross, a concert coming up, followed by two Frontier movies, and (*ahem*) translations of Macross comics, novels, and drama albums that have never been available in English before.

And everything has already been said...?

If you have nothing to add to the Macross discussions, that's fine; you don't have to post. But to imply that Harmony Gold and Robotech is the only vital topic here (and that the rest of us are wasting our time) is both wrong and insulting.

[Seto Kaiba]

True, but hasn't HG been saying, "We WANT to release more Macross...but Big West won't work with us!"

Either they're blocking it or they're not. And if they are, they shouldn't be playing the victim.

According to Tommy Yune, Harmony Gold wants to work with Big West to release the rest of Macross in the US, but Big West doesn't want to work with them (specifically, doesn't want them getting a cut of the profits just because they trademarked the name "Macross" in the US and abroad). I'm sure Kevin McKeever has his own spin on things, where Big West are big, evil tossers who want the still-beating heart of Carl Macek on a silver platter before they'll consider working together.

Anyway, you CAN'T be serious...a new VF-1 technical book, TWO magazines devoted EXCLUSIVELY to Macross, a concert coming up, followed by two Frontier movies, and (*ahem*) translations of Macross comics, novels, and drama albums that have never been available in English before.

And everything has already been said...?

If you have nothing to add to the Macross discussions, that's fine; you don't have to post. But to imply that Harmony Gold and Robotech is the only vital topic here (and that the rest of us are wasting our time) is both wrong and insulting.

I'd go so far as to say it's the LEAST vital topic here... Robotech is a shambling corpse of a franchise that has yet to produce anything new or interesting to realize the promise that its creators editors continue to claim it shows. If I had to ascribe one particular function to this thread, it would be trying to form a decent theory about why Tatsunoko is content to prolong the current state of affairs, rather than trying to mend fences, brooming the tired anachronism that is Robotech, and releasing Macross on a worldwide scale.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

According to Tommy Yune, Harmony Gold wants to work with Big West to release the rest of Macross in the US, but Big West doesn't want to work with them (specifically, doesn't want them getting a cut of the profits just because they trademarked the name "Macross" in the US and abroad). I'm sure Kevin McKeever has his own spin on things, where Big West are big, evil tossers who want the still-beating heart of Carl Macek on a silver platter before they'll consider working together.

I'd go so far as to say it's the LEAST vital topic here... Robotech is a shambling corpse of a franchise that has yet to produce anything new or interesting to realize the promise that its creators editors continue to claim it shows. If I had to ascribe one particular function to this thread, it would be trying to form a decent theory about why Tatsunoko is content to prolong the current state of affairs, rather than trying to mend fences, brooming the tired anachronism that is Robotech, and releasing Macross on a worldwide scale.

What are yo utalking about, Robotech is still a flourishing franchise. They just released a brand new movie 2 years ago, and re-released it 3 times already! Now they're making working on a possible sequal, and a live action movie that could possibly happen someday. Robotech is more alive than ever!

[ntsan]

Man I wonder if Bandai/BigWest have the chance to purchase Tatsunoko in 05 then all this license issue might be resolved.

[Omegablue]

Firstly, thanks to everyone for your input. Very intense and sticky read.

Got another question. Macross Frontier is to be released Dubbed? If this is the case, does it mean that Bandai is going to pay royalties to HG?

Also onto the whole copyrighting names and etc like Macross and UN Spacey. This pretty soon can be gone...

Reason being is that lately every pharmaceutical company is copyrighting every DNA structure and gene of humans and animals. Very bastard but it's forcing who ever needs to state or study a particular gene, they have to pay royalties. Sick huh? Now apparently the EU is trying to stop this, and are considering of designing new laws at least in the EU, which means copy protecting cannot be implemented unless if it's the original creator. Since there's no scientific proof of who created people and animals and nature, no one can own them. And no one has to pay to use terminologies and etc.

Now if this law goes into place, there's the corporate fear that any original work on any spread, can only be copy protecting and owned by the original creator.

OK, maybe I watch too many conspiracy films of politics and economics. LOL

[chrisk]

Anyway, you CAN'T be serious...a new VF-1 technical book, TWO magazines devoted EXCLUSIVELY to Macross, a concert coming up, followed by two Frontier movies, and (*ahem*) translations of Macross comics, novels, and drama albums that have never been available in English before.

Gubaba, with all due respect, but I'm love Macross - second to none. I got to really know it through DYRL, and the fondness has been growing strong since. I'm eagerly awaiting the Frontier OVAs, and predict it will be... a helluva lot better than Robotech: Shadow Chronicles. Apologies if you took my comments the wrong way. Seriously, that was the last thing on my mind.

I am aware of the cool merchandise you mentioned (the new manga is of great interest), but the corruption/red tape in my country's customs bureau pretty much denies me from ordering them online.

I'm sure Kevin McKeever has his own spin on things, where Big West are big, evil tossers who want the still-beating heart of Carl Macek on a silver platter before they'll consider working together.

Hmm... It seem Carl Macek's gonna appear in the RobotechX booth in San Diego. Probably could get something out of him (provided he still remembers).

Say hello to MEMO for me.

What are you talking about, Robotech is still a flourishing franchise. They just released a brand new movie 2 years ago, and re-released it 3 times already! Now they're making working on a possible sequel, and a live action movie that could possibly happen someday. Robotech is more alive than ever!

Keith, does iTunes and Hulu count?

Edited July 17, 2009 by chrisk

[Dynaman]

Also onto the whole copyrighting names and etc like Macross and UN Spacey. This pretty soon can be gone...

Reason being is that lately every pharmaceutical company is copyrighting every DNA structure and gene of humans and animals.

Those are invalid copyrights, patents, whatever. You can't copyright things already existing in nature. What they *CAN* copyright/patent/whatever is artificially created stuff - GMO crops for instance. Which is still a tricky legal question - it's not the same thing as copyrighting naturally occuring organisms.

[Omegablue]

Those are invalid copyrights, patents, whatever. You can't copyright things already existing in nature. What they *CAN* copyright/patent/whatever is artificially created stuff - GMO crops for instance. Which is still a tricky legal question - it's not the same thing as copyrighting naturally occuring organisms.

Nope, they are claiming ownership of genes and dna structures.

[Freiflug88]

Got another question. Macross Frontier is to be released Dubbed? If this is the case, does it mean that Bandai is going to pay royalties to HG?

1. The Macross Frontier Englsih Dub is only an unofficial fandub. Its being done by the Macross World user Hikaro, the same guy who did the English fandub of MDYRL.

2. If Bandai were to release an english dub of Macross Frontier they wouldn't owe HG a cent in royalities and they already paid Big West for the rights to use the Macross Frontier footage which includes editing. Dubbing the actual songs might be a different story though.

3. Only if Bandai were to release Macross Frontier outside of Japan would they have to pay royalties for using HG trademarked "Macross."

As for the copyrighting individual genes I doubt that will go though. Chris Horrie of UK News tried to patent and copyright his whole DNA as part of a report on celebritites being encouraged to patent their DNA back in 2001. He was told he needed to get a complete printout of his entire DNA which would be several miles long in order and prove that his unique DNA had a "Clear Technical Application" such as a reaction to chemicals that would produce something valuable in order to patent his unique DNA. When he later tried copyrighting his DNA he was told that his copyrighted genes [could only apply to any documents on which [his] gene pattern was written and not the genes themselves], but that there was "absolutely no chance that this would stand up in a British court of law." ~http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1494746.stm

I say that even if the Pharmaceutical companies succeed in copyrighting individual on paper any judge in their right mind would simply rule any scientific research into individual genes as "Fair Use."

[taksraven]

What are yo utalking about, Robotech is still a flourishing franchise. They just released a brand new movie 2 years ago, and re-released it 3 times already! Now they're making working on a possible sequal, and a live action movie that could possibly happen someday. Robotech is more alive than ever!

You sound like you are channelling Roy Focker there. :lol:

Taksraven

[TheLoneWolf]

NOW, BACK IN ANIME EXPO 2004 (I THINK, HAVE TO CHECK MY VIDEO), THESE QUESTIONS WERE BEING ASKED BY MW FANS. AND ONE HAD TO DO WITH LICENSING. ONE ANSWER STOOD OUT..

TOMMY REPLIED (NOT IN SPECIFIC AND GOING BY MEMORY) WAS THAT THEY HAD TO RE-AQUIERE THE LICENSE FROM TATSUNOKO.. WICH THEY HAVE NOW FOR MACROSS BUT NOT BACK THEN.

MEMO, thanks for the explanation.

[Einherjar]

That thing Memo mentioned about in 2004 happened around the same time the Macross court battle was wrapping up. Sounds like HG made made sure everything was official and up to date with Tatsunoko because of it.

[Freiflug88]

You sound like you are channelling Roy Focker there. :lol:

Of course Keith can channel the spirit of Roy Focker thanks to his Basara avatar. Basara IS the Jesus Christ of Macross you know.

[Gubaba]

Gubaba, with all due respect, but I'm love Macross - second to none. I got to really know it through DYRL, and the fondness has been growing strong since. I'm eagerly awaiting the Frontier OVAs, and predict it will be... a helluva lot better than Robotech: Shadow Chronicles. Apologies if you took my comments the wrong way. Seriously, that was the last thing on my mind.

I am aware of the cool merchandise you mentioned (the new manga is of great interest), but the corruption/red tape in my country's customs bureau pretty much denies me from ordering them online.

Fair enough.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Einherjar]

Hmm... It seem Carl Macek's gonna appear in the RobotechX booth in San Diego. Probably could get something out of him (provided he still remembers).

He'll probably stick to his side of the story mentioned in the Robotech art books.

[Wanzerfan]

What are yo utalking about, Robotech is still a flourishing franchise. They just released a brand new movie 2 years ago, and re-released it 3 times already! Now they're making working on a possible sequal, and a live action movie that could possibly happen someday. Robotech is more alive than ever!

I hope the hell you're being sarcasitc, Keith.

Let me say something about something I posted in this thread about Carl Macek.

The only reason why I thought he ran ADV is because the company is based here in Houston, TX and that bastard lives here.

A foolish assumption, but a logical assumption.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[jenius]

Damn, what's with the hostility toward Macek? He was a business guy who made business deals; he wasn't out to hurt anyone. He was trying to bring cartoons to the US and make a dollar. No one, not Tatsunoko, not Big West, not Studio Nue, not your grandmother, ever thought the rights for a little cartoon in Japan would escalate into so much frustration and so many opportunities lost.

Edit - if he was literally raised without the presence of a father, then I apologize for inferring you meant some hostility there.

Edited July 18, 2009 by jenius

[VFTF1]

QUOTE (Keith @ Jul 17 2009, 04:31 AM) *

What are yo utalking about, Robotech is still a flourishing franchise. They just released a brand new movie 2 years ago, and re-released it 3 times already! Now they're making working on a possible sequal, and a live action movie that could possibly happen someday. Robotech is more alive than ever!

I hope the hell you're being sarcasitc, Keith.

He's not! Keith has seen the light! Hanluya!

Proof perfect that Robotech is flourishing by leaps and bounds is that they are in talks to go into talks to talk about having talks about talking about talks over the talks about the talks on the talks regarding the talks about the LIVE ACTION ROBOTECH MOVIE!

SO THERE!!!!!

Pete

[VFTF1]

Damn, what's with the hostility toward Macek? He was a business guy who made business deals; he wasn't out to hurt anyone. He was trying to bring cartoons to the US and make a dollar. No one, not Tatsunoko, not Big West, not Studio Nue, not your grandmother, ever thought the rights for a little cartoon in Japan would escalate into so much frustration and so many opportunities lost.

I will happily answer this question.

WHY DO I FEEL HOSTILITY TOWARDS MACEK & CO?

Because:

If it were just a case of them trying to bring a cool little Japanese anime over here, having to redo it and stick two random other anime on just to meet the TV criteria of the time - fine. Of course I wouldn't have anything against him; I would just consider Robotech in the same way that I look at other franchises which have a similar history of being "brought over" or re-worked or redone or whatever.

But where the hostility begins is in Harmony Gold's attempt to pretend that reality is different than what it is. Robotech.com seems to authentically like to pretend that there's no such thing as the original Japanese Macross and the continuing series, and that there is certainly no such thing as Yamato VF-1 valkyrie, and that either way- even if there are such things - DON'T WORRY- they're actually no better than the gems that HG and Toynami bring us.

This is not just a statement of opinion on their part - but they have used the law to back them up by attacking little dealers and bigger dealers who have "dared" carry Japanese products.

Arcane copyright agreements are being used as an excuse to deprive people of a choice between stories and to deprive them of access to figures.

It is beside the point that these methods "don't work" - because obviously they don't since everyone can go download the original Macross and its' continuations and can get Yamato Valkyrie through third party channels.

But what I hate is when some people try to pretend that reality is different and get mad at you for pointing out that actually it looks a certain way that it is forbidden to point out.

This is not Macek's fault as such - but this is what Robotech, and therefore the public persona of Macek in general - have become.

Honestly - before I heard of HG's shenanigans, I had a lot of fond feelings for Robotech and for the entire franchise. I thought Toynami was crap, but I didn't hold any hostility towards them - it's just a company like any other. You either like their product or don't. Whatever.

But unfortunately - they don't behave like other companies and production studios - just confining themselves to trying to market their goods. They play dirty and they insult people's intelligence by creating a fantasy make believe world that's just not true.

When it is legal to go to a store in America and see a Toynami VF next to a Yamato USA VF - and CHOSE which one you want - I will no longer be hostile towards Macek and RT and HG.

And yeah - I know - I'm putting them all in one bag.

Someone will say but Macek has nothing to do with what's going on now" - fair enough.

My point is not to argue that he does, but rather that ironically the reputation and credibility of Robotech has been harmed, has been morphed from a wonderful attempt to introduce Western audiences to Japanese anime into this ridiculous farse that trys to pretend that better products, ideas and shows don't and didn't exist.

That's where the hostility is from IMO.

Pete

[Einherjar]

As a businessman, his long term plans for the franchise really sucked, and his personalized animated attempts lacked hindsight into the hardships of a foreign medium at the time. At least he found a way to end his story gracefully by the time he left, right?

I think the problem is the people who want to profit from the nostalgia, which is ironically the company he worked for. Technically, he ended the story, but who reads novels and comics these days? It only legit if it's in some animated form and live action apparently.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Einherjar

[jenius]

But where the hostility begins is in Harmony Gold's attempt to pretend that reality is different than what it is. Robotech.com seems to authentically like to pretend that there's no such thing as the original Japanese Macross and the continuing series, and that there is certainly no such thing as Yamato VF-1 valkyrie, and that either way- even if there are such things - DON'T WORRY- they're actually no better than the gems that HG and Toynami bring us.

You're being very narrow in your vision and choosing to villify HG instead of looking at the larger scope. There is room to villify HG in how they made their legal attacks which killed their relationship with the rightful Macross rights owners back in Japan. They were stupid and wrong and in their desperate attempt to grab more dollars they were just loading the gun to shoot themselves in the foot with (and I believe Macek was no longer involved with HG at that point but I may be wrong). Years later, in their horribly mismanaged and bungled way, they saw that they had screwed up but the damage was done. They tried to make inroads back with Yamato and just about anyone that would listen to them (including Bandai) but they had burned so many bridges they had no where left to go. They don't deny that Macross is an existing and successful franchise, they just say "Don't look over there, look over HERE!" and point to the stuff that they can make money on. That's just business. Even the "Macross" trademark makes sense since The Macross Saga is the most popular arch of Robotech (although it still seems douchey).

This is not just a statement of opinion on their part - but they have used the law to back them up by attacking little dealers and bigger dealers who have "dared" carry Japanese products.

They paid good money to have a license. Those dealers are making conscious decisions to try to make a money in a gray market. They shouldn't complain when HG says "Ahem... we have a license we paid good money for." Of course, this is only true of merchandise from the orignal Macross series. I still find it insane to think they would try to stop MacF, MacZero, or MacPlus merchandise from being brought over although I'm not sure if they do any more.

When it is legal to go to a store in America and see a Toynami VF next to a Yamato USA VF - and CHOSE which one you want - I will no longer be hostile towards Macek and RT and HG.

Now see, you should be angry with BW then. HG just wants to earn a percentage off of each sell of Yamato or Bandai merchandise for the original series (again, if they tried to make money off any other series that would be wrong... and they have been wrong often). As the legal license holder outside of Japan they are ENTITLED to that percentage (again, this is why they are entitled to shut stores down selling merchandise and not giving them a cut). HG first burned the crap out of BW and as a result BW forbids the international distribution of toys they license. So, you can't get toys anywhere outside of Japan because BW doesn't allow it.

Robotech, HG, and all involved have bad reputations for lots of very good reasons. It just seems a little odd to drag the original guy into it and pin most of the complex mess that happened long after the creative phase was over back on him.

[VFTF1]

Yeah, I know - that why I qualified by writing that it's not so much that he's at fault as that when I hear the name "Macek" I instinctively think of the mess rather than the lovely nostalgia of bringing anime to an unsuspecting western world in the 80s and the wonderful palladium role playing games I played.

So there's that.

But, on the subject of licensing rights et al...

I know I know...the law is the law... but often times a law is written that tries to uphold justice in a given circumstance. Then the circumstances change dynamically, and the law ends up being arcane.

Even if HG is right about their license... well - fat lot of good it does them or American Robotech fans.

It would make better business sense for them to burry the hachet.

Also, demanding a cut off of Yamato USA valkyrie is just insane. I mean - it's just such a lousy MO. It is basically "yeah - these Japanese guys that made the original Macross series - we got them to sign a contract that gives us international rights to it. Ha hah. Oh - and those other Japanese guys that make superior toys to the stuff we're putting out -well - we'll let them sell it here if they give us a cut."

The point is - HG seems to be a company that exists off of legalese twists. Instead of putting out a quality product of their own - they try to use legal muscle.

Even if they win this legal battle - they still loose.

They loose because all of their resources and focus goes into this stupid fight over a market that is dwindling, that is on life support, and where progress exists only in Japan.

I mean - come on. Look at the Yamatos. Look at Macross Frontier. Look at the Bandai models and DXs and the gashapons and the Macross Ace manga and the upcoming Movie and the EVA 2.0 and...on and on.

And now look at Shadow Chronicles.

I'm not speaking now from a qualitative point of view - I will remain quality neutral here - let's say the question of quality is completely a subjective matter... But look at it just from a business angle:

Where is there more dynamism? More innovation? More attempts at creating new sustainable markets and nurturing long term demand?

As a retailer - If I'm gonna go bankrupt one of these dismal Great Depression II days - you can bet your boat I'd rather go down with a ton of Yammies than with a ton of Toynamis in stock.

Also - who would ever - as a retailer - want to do business with HG or carry their product or anything like that given their wacko business practices? Given what they tried with BBTS? (which apparently didn't work since BBTS is carrying Macross Yamato products anyways)....

Most large producers pay retailers for shelf space if the retailer is a chain and big enough. Retail chains don't really make money off of "sales" but off of big producers buying shelf space - and PRIME shelf space at that (for the ones that can). Retail chains market themselves as offering great stuff for cheap and if they succeed in marketing themselves thus, producers will pay just to have their stuff on the shelves.

But the hobby market doesn't work like that IMO. The hobby market is too much of a niche. This market has people that are way more connected with eachother and in touch to an extent that is much bigger than the regular physical-shelf retail market.

I just can't imagine having a good working relationship with guys like HG after what I've read about their business practices.

And I for the life of me don't understand where the silver lining in this kind of strategy is for HG. I mean - maybe they have enough of a profit margin just by virtue of wider access to the US market? Maybe it's the fact that (at least up until just before the version 2.0 Yammies came out) their 'Veritechs' were cheaper than the ubber priced 1/48s?

It just feels like they are doing something that should be a labor of love with no love whatsoever.

I guess from their point of view- they paid for the license and therefore should have the "rights."

But see - they are assuming that these rights will always actually mean something. It's like having the rights to proceeds from the sales of a book that will not sell for very much longer.

Better to help write a new and better book.

I think they instinctively know this - which is why they are so desperately trying to create new mythology with the Robotech movies or to "break through" into Holywood with a live action film - anything to take them off of life support and give them real independence as a franchise that has less and less to do with Macross.

Shadow Chronicles basically showed that they want to escape the Macross ties, and are not worried about Mospedea making a comeback in Japan...

But - I just can't see it working. The further they run from the source and try to pretend it didn't and doesn't have a life of their own - the less appealing they become.

Robotech becomes an empty shell - an emptier shell...

Pete

[Roy Focker]

Macek did what he though he had to do at the time. I don't blame him anymore for that. My current beef is with anyone who still hires or uses him. Why use a guy who is regarded as hack? Is that the message you want to send to your audience?

[Einherjar]

Technically, he ended the story, but who reads novels and comics these days? It only legit if it's in some animated form and live action apparently.

That's not what I think, but it sounds like the mentality HG adopted after retconning the novels and most of the comics out. If anything, the novels helped the fandom read more books. If it isn't the case, there hasn't been a novelization of The Shadow Chronicles in the works yet. Historically, there's always been a novelization of the animation or what they wanted to animate. It would probably help the current stall with all current productions.

As for the appeal of Macek working on current anime, why not ask someone in the Bleach fandom, his current work? Does anyone there have problems with the way he's doing the dub or translation for the U.S. release and broadcast?

[jenius]

I'm definitely not arguing that HG has done well with their business. Actually, it seems to me that the animation angle of their business is more a hobby, a somewhat profitable hobby, but a small enough hobby that they let it be run by a bunch of people who have little industry experience and not a whole lot of direction. It's like the brass at HG said "Hey, maybe we could make a lot of money off this Robotech franchise." They hired a bunch of lawyers, threw a bunch of weight around they didn't have, and failed miserably. After all that they gave up saying: "Hey, you guys really like Robotech right? Well, it's making enough money for us to employ some people, why don't you take the helm?" So now HG comes off to me as a bunch of amateurs who probably have their heart in the right place but don't really know what they're doing. They've got all the right general ideas, they're trying to defend the license and grow the name brand, but the truth is the name brand needs to be taken away and given to someone with clout and muscle. They're trying to write new storylines but they don't have any accomplished storytellers. They're trying to create new mecha but they don't have any accomplished mechanical designers. They're trying to market the hell out of it but they have no marketing budget. They're trying to animate new shows but they have no animation talent or budget. The problem is, if the franchise does go to someone with more clout, once the ones who love it lose control of it there's no telling what it will become. Some who have seen Shadow Chronicles would probably gamble on it turning out better though.

And yes, they still deserve a cut of every VF-1 sold outside of Japan. That's what they paid for, they deserve it. Is it a sustainable way for HG to continue to exist? No. Does it suck for all of us that BW won't let Yamato and Bandai sell internationally? Yes. Can you blame BW after HG's legal bs? No. Did Macek ever imagine this clusterf*ck when he was gluing together three series? No. It's kind of funny to think that Robotech only aired for about one season and has as big a following as it does. Just think about all the other shows that were around so much longer and no one gives a crap about. Still, in a few more years that small franchise from the past will be just about as memorable if HG can't get WB to right their ship.

[Einherjar]

The question is whether or not WB wants to get deeper into this mess than they already are to straighten HG's problems. They have the money and influence, but it's still a huge commitment to get involved.

[Freiflug88]

And yes, they still deserve a cut of every VF-1 sold outside of Japan. That's what they paid for, they deserve it. Is it a sustainable way for HG to continue to exist? No. Does it suck for all of us that BW won't let Yamato and Bandai sell internationally? Yes.

I agree with that. I have no probelm admitting that HG deserves a cut out of every VF-1 toy or any other SDF Macross toy with their SDF Macross merchandise license that they paid big bucks for. I can see why BW and everyone is pissed when HG pulls out their Macross trademark and say they deserve a cut for everything labeled Macross under the sun though. I have no idea just how big or small this trademark is, but I still want to scream at BW to just man up and make the most of the situation at times.

I know HG actions have been pretty low and I not trying to defend them, but I believe BW deserves alot of criticism as well. Just about every Robotech fan minus Doug Bendo can be guaranteed to buy dozens of Macross DVDs and toys to add to their collection given the chance. Now is it that hard to swallow your pride BW and give HG a cut when their giving you there entire consumer base in exchange? From what I understand HG would only get a cut for the trademarked Macross stuff that sells, in other words HG would no doubt drop their Robojunk (minus WB's LAM) and become BW's biggest salesmen for Macross outside of Japan. I dunno about you, but turning your biggest competitor into a business partner who will try to sell every Macross item at least twice in exchange for a slice of the profits sounds like it could be the deal of the century to me.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Keith]

As long as they're TV VF-1's, and not movie VF-1's, which they've shiftily incorporated into their

toyline. Nor should Macross 7/VFX-2 VF-1X's count towards their profit line.

[Einherjar]

Now is it that hard to swallow your pride BW and give HG a cut when their giving you there entire consumer base in exchange? From what I understand HG would only get a cut for the trademarked Macross stuff that sells, in other words HG would no doubt drop their Robojunk (minus WB's LAM) and become BW's biggest salesmen for Macross outside of Japan. I dunno about you, but turning your biggest competitor into a business partner who will try to sell every Macross item at least twice in exchange for a slice of the profits sounds like it could be the deal of the century to me.

Should that happen, Robotech would still have priority over everything else. There could be a huge domino affect for everything, good or bad depending on your point of view. The blockade of toys and merchandise besides DVDs would be lifted so everyone, but most importantly HG, can make money. Then, you would see all stalled Robotech productions, LAMR and Shadow Rising, suddenly get back into production because some of the license restrictions have been lifted (Rick could look like Rick again, studios now more likely to work for them). Like they'd actually abandon both of them now that a juicy opportunity has come. They could call the LAMR a Macross movie, but WB made the deal with HG and it has been billed as one since day one. So their franchise gains the achievement of a live action film and the chance to make it closer to both original materials with the deal made. They might cut a deal and change the name to Macross for the Japanese release, maybe even get Mari Iijima and Shoji Kawamori to endorse it at a distance. It's more of a publicity stunt to give the film legitimacy, tie it to a title people know better there, and raise potential profits from the otaku population. Plans to bring the rest of the Macross series would be planned, but at a snail's pace to "avoid confusion and conflict with the Robotech productions currently at work." To coincide the release of the projects, a massive marketing campaign the size of Transformers or other film would take place putting the Robotech title everywhere (toys, billboards, TV series re-release, etc.).

Finally, months after both have been released and still fresh in the public's mind, they'll officially announce the release dates of the rest of the Macross series. The first of many releases will be labeled as "part of the inspiration for the Robotech phenomenon," or other descriptive lines that points back to Robotech. Those who had been waiting for an official release for Zero, 7, Frontier would eventually see it, but only after years of waiting and after the revival of Robotech. And to add to insult, the quality of the release might be mediocre so that it can be compared unfavorably to a NEW Robotech animation remake or some other production in the future. Imagine ADV dub quality deliberately made for all of them and other stuff to release them cheap.

However, that last part happening depends on the LAMR and Shadow Chronicles being successful enough and of good quality to revive the franchise. If both turn into a disaster, they might release the rest of Macross labeling it as far as they can from Robotech to salvage the deal they made. They're bound to try again anyway.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Then, you would see all stalled Robotech productions, LAMR and Shadow Rising, suddenly get back into production because some of the license restrictions have been lifted (Rick could look like Rick again, studios now more likely to work for them). Like they'd actually abandon both of them now that a juicy opportunity has come.

The Macross Trademark that is blocking Macross toys and DVDs, and the Macross derivative rights are two completely separate things. Giving HG a cut of the profits from the international sales of Macross DVD and toys DOES NOT EQUAL a free pass to use the Macross elements in any Robotech work. If BW agrees to sell the Live Action rights for Macross for use in the LAMR in a separate agreement then its just more money for BW anyway.

They might cut a deal and change the name to Macross for the Japanese release, maybe even get Mari Iijima and Shoji Kawamori to endorse it at a distance. It's more of a publicity stunt to give the film legitimacy, tie it to a title people know better there, and raise potential profits from the otaku population.

I am not so sure Mari Ijima would do a publicity stunt like that. Mari actually moved to LA in the first place to get away from the paparazzi and all the people in Japan who still considered her as just the voice actress for Minmay rather then an actual musician.

Plans to bring the rest of the Macross series would be planned, but at a snail's pace to "avoid confusion and conflict with the Robotech productions currently at work."

Harmony Gold wouldn't be the one deciding when Macross series would be brought over. Bandai or whoever BW hires to distribute would. Even if HG was placed in charge of distribution there would just be even more economic incentive for HG to get all the Macross merchandise out to the market ASAP and sell the stuff themselves. Besides HG has shown time and time again that they are much more content selling stuff other people made so they would never put money into producing competing Shadow sequels when they could make easy money from the sale of the second largest mecha franchise in the world to consumers worldwide.

[Bri]

[...]

And yes, they still deserve a cut of every VF-1 sold outside of Japan. That's what they paid for, they deserve it. Is it a sustainable way for HG to continue to exist? No. Does it suck for all of us that BW won't let Yamato and Bandai sell internationally? Yes. Can you blame BW after HG's legal bs? No. Did Macek ever imagine this clusterf*ck when he was gluing together three series? No. It's kind of funny to think that Robotech only aired for about one season and has as big a following as it does. Just think about all the other shows that were around so much longer and no one gives a crap about. Still, in a few more years that small franchise from the past will be just about as memorable if HG can't get WB to right their ship.

Can't help but wonder if it is BW is not licensing any post SDFM goods outside of Japan, or if it's Harmony Gold actively blocking licenses. I've contacted a representative of Glenat who are publishing Macross 7 Trash with the question why they are not affected by the HG trademark (they only credit Big West). Hopefully I'll get a response from them soon.

[VFTF1]

I dunno. On the other hand - my view is kind of "if it ain't broken - don't fix it."

I'm actually glad that the Japanese are just doing Macross their way and HG is doing Robotech their way. Their cooperation led to a lame dub, a mangled mish-mash series, legal problems, and a badly animated no-plot movie, and Toynami toys.

I can only shudder to think what Macross: Frontier might have looked like had it not been done purely by the Japanese, but instead been some kind of "joint effort."

I like everything Kawamorii has done to date; I like his direction for Macross. I like Yamato and Bandai's figures.

I don't want any of it to change for the worse ONLY BECAUSE that would mean people at HG would get to cut a deal, or Michael Bay would get to make a Robotech movie starring Britney Spears and call it "Macross"

I would rather things remained as they were. If this means Yammies can't be sold at Wal-Mart and people have to fly to Japan to see movies or download them - fine. Whatever.

Who watches television these days anyways?

Pete

[Freiflug88]

I can only shudder to think what Macross: Frontier might have looked like had it not been done purely by the Japanese, but instead been some kind of "joint effort."

I like everything Kawamorii has done to date; I like his direction for Macross. I like Yamato and Bandai's figures.

For the last time.

HG just wants money from trademarked product sales, they don't want to participate in any "joint effort" to produce the next Macross series of anything. Look did Yamato and Bandai ever tell Karamorii how to design his mecha or take part in any creavtive "joint effort" in making Frontier? NO, they just sold the toys. HG would still have ZERO as in 0% creative control over Macross. Sure HG will continue selling their RT alternatives of SDF and DYRL toys with their SDF and DYRL merchandising licenses as they do now, but they're not gong evening going to be able to create Robotech DYRL, Plus, Zero, Frontier out of redited footage and repackaged toys like they did with Tatsunko's SDF rights.

Michael Bay would get to make a Robotech movie starring Britney Spears and call it "Macross"

They can call it "Macross" right now if they really wanted, HG owns the trademarked name Macross. The issue is over derivative rights of SDF Macross and granting Robotech a piece of the profit pie on trademarked product sales does not grant HG those rights for the LAMR or anything else.

I would rather things remained as they were. If this means Yammies can't be sold at Wal-Mart and people have to fly to Japan to see movies or download them - fine. Whatever.

Adding Yammies to Wal-Mart shelves means fans would have the options to 1) go to Walmart and buy a Yammie with a tiny HG sticker with $2.50 added to the price to cover HG's trademark or 2) order an imported Yammie and pay $10 in shipping costs.

[EXO]

According to Tommy Yune, Harmony Gold wants to work with Big West to release the rest of Macross in the US, but Big West doesn't want to work with them (specifically, doesn't want them getting a cut of the profits just because they trademarked the name "Macross" in the US and abroad). I'm sure Kevin McKeever has his own spin on things, where Big West are big, evil tossers who want the still-beating heart of Carl Macek on a silver platter before they'll consider working together.

I'd go so far as to say it's the LEAST vital topic here... Robotech is a shambling corpse of a franchise that has yet to produce anything new or interesting to realize the promise that its creators editors continue to claim it shows. If I had to ascribe one particular function to this thread, it would be trying to form a decent theory about why Tatsunoko is content to prolong the current state of affairs, rather than trying to mend fences, brooming the tired anachronism that is Robotech, and releasing Macross on a worldwide scale.

Of course HG would want to work with BW.... but getting into business with HG would in no way benefit them. BW is churning out successful new products that are huge marketing machines and they eventually make their money without an international distributor. This website alone is an example of the diverse worldwide interest in Macross, old and new (diversity not popularity, this website in no way can represent what the international market profit is). With the internet as a marketing tool and online distributors, you don't want a company with bullying tactics to split the profit with.

Yes, Robotech brought Macross into US and wordwide awareness. But the continuing popularity of Macross and its franchise owes nothing to Harmony Gold. If Harmony Gold was such a beneficial addition to its "properties" then why isn't Mospeada and Southern Cross enjoying the resurgence that Macross is. If Robotech's popularity doesn't hinge on Big West's Macross marketing then the other 2 properties would be bringing in the bacon for HG.

Obviously HG is just a small thorn in Big West's big fat side and they most likely don't think about it as often as HG's Robotech people and even less than the people on this thread.