DYRL SDF-1 Macross

[Cyclone Trooper]

Now before this turns into another DYRL vs. TV version debate, I want to make it clear that this thread isn't about the battlefortress's appearance or transformation capabilities or anything like that. This primarily concerns Macross City itself, or at least the idea of a sprawling metropolis in the legs of the SDF-1. I was watching DYRL on our new plasma HDTV this evening (man, you see things in the animation you never paid attention to before!)...and something occurred to me. The DYRL Macross is 1210m long, over 300m tall (in fortress mode) and just short of 500m wide. According to the Gold Book, the movie itself, and various other sources, its confirmed that Macross City is laid out mainly in the legs of the ship. The interior of both legs are---for all intent and purpose---designed like a massive multi-tiered shopping mall, complete with theaters, restaurants, entertainment venues, industrial areas and residential lodging. This much can't be disputed...

But here's what I've always wondered...

The population of Macross City fluctuates between 70,000 and 56,000 men, women and children...with additional military personnel ranging from 1,200 to over 20,100, depending on what source you go with. So when we crunch the numbers, the SDF-1 is carrying (at full capacity) anywhere from 71,200 to over 90,000 people (!)...all confined within a relatively small surface area of roughly 3/4 of a mile. Is this possible, at least in the way that DYRL source material would have one believe? That just seems like a hell of a lot of bodies crammed together into such a small space...yet the interiors seem to represent themselves as been fairly spacious. Hell, the Frontier's Island can house up to 1 million...but there's significantly more space to support that many people, and can therefore be understood. The SDF-1 on the other hand seems to employ the age-old anime magic of "interiors being bigger than exteriors" to make room for all of its citizens. I dunno...maybe it IS possible to put that many people inside the battlefortress comfortably. But I'd need to see a breakdown of how it could be done...

Edited April 26, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[Gubaba]

Quite honestly? I think the writers tend to forget that the city is on a spaceship. They want to show a city that looks like someplace you'd actually want to live (but primarily it's an idealized 1980s Tokyo).

As you say, fifty- to seventy-thousand people is a lot, but one of the Macross short stories mentions a group of high school boys ALL WEARING DIFFERENT SCHOOL UNIFORMS. How many boys-only high schools would there be on the Macross? How many cafés and discos and restaurants would they realistically have?

Most likely, Macross City would not even really exist. They might have built dormitory-style rooms for all the civilians, but there's no earthly reason to go to all the trouble to rebuild the entire city inside the ship...except that it heps make the story fun and interesting.

[Seto Kaiba]

The population of Macross City fluctuates between 70,000 and 56,000 men, women and children...with additional military personnel ranging from 1,200 to over 20,100, depending on what source you go with. So when we crunch the numbers, the SDF-1 is carrying (at full capacity) anywhere from 71,200 to over 90,000 people (!)...all confined within a relatively small surface area of roughly 3/4 of a mile.

Where're you coming up with 90,000 people?

The military crew of the Macross was 20,000 people, most of whom are presumably living in navy-style bunkrooms in the midsection of the ship. The civilian population living in the ship's improvised city section numbered only 58,000 people at the start of the war. The crews of ARMD-01 and ARMD-02, as well as the pilots stationed aboard them, are likely living aboard their ships most of the time. The way it stacks up, the total population that HAS to be living aboard the Macross (the crew and civilians) is at most 78,000 people, only three quarters of which are actually permanent residents of the city.

Yes, the population density in the city section is a bit extreme, but the city has an extremely unconventional layout (being built in tiers, and occupying something like half the ship, where gravity is not a huge issue). The city does seem a bit larger than it ought to be, but that's just dramatic license.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Bri]

Think about Monaco. A micro state in Europe. 2 square miles and over 50,000 people live there during the summer. Monaco is also very luxurious/spacious, so the 3/4 square mile ( or more) inside the Macross isn't that weird.

[Mr March]

As far as I know, the population of the SDF-1 Macross never went over 78,000 people.

Anyway, we had this discussion before in a thread about the SDF-1's length:

thread discussion turns to talk about the population inside the SDF-1 Macross

Basically, the SDF-1 Macross ship itself has no problem accommodating 78,000 people and could easily accommodate thousands more (and this isn't even accounting for the Daedalus, Prometheus or ARMDs). Where the creative staff fudges things onboard the Macross is when they attempt to accommodate the buildings. Basically, the ship can't; at least, not the way buildings and city blocks are shown in the anime.

BTW, Macross Chronicle Issue 12 has a World Guide section on the SDF-1 Macross habitable sections and it seems to indicate areas beyond the legs. The midsection seems to hold people as well.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Mr March

[Cyclone Trooper]

Where're you coming up with 90,000 people?

Like I said...various sources seem to contradict one another on what is considered "fact" about the compliment of the SDF-1, so I was being all-inclusive. I gave a low number and a maximum number of people based on various "ship rosters" I've come across. So I apologize if I'm stepping on any Macross fact-keeper's toes here...lol I was shooting for the "somewhere in there is the true number" approach.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[Cyclone Trooper]

Okay...then I now know why some sources are giving such large population numbers. It seems some sources indicate that the 70,000+ people aboard are all civilians while the military accounts for an ADDITIONAL 1200 to 20,000 on top of that. While others indicate that the 70,000 INCLUDES the military in the total number. The 90,000 seemed a tad out there for me too. I always thought it was in the 56,000 to 70,000 range.

[Nexx Stalker]

What really amazes me is that they have highways and cars. Do they run in circles (a mile and a half is a veeeery short distance)?

[RedWolf]

Reminds me of the discussion in Battlestar forum that the Galactica should accomodate more people and Vipers than it did.

[MDP310]

I just looked up Manhattan Island on Wikipedia. Its population density is about 70,000 people per square mile, and it's the most densely-populated county in the US. So having ~58,000 people in a little less space than that seems totally possible.

Also, the Chrysler Building is 318 meters tall. So the entire Macross in cruiser mode is about the same height as that.

I have to watch DYRL again, but it always seemed to me that the buildings inside the legs were too tall to fit inside.

Oh and I think I remember reading somewhere that the "70,000 civilians" number came from Robotech.

[Gubaba]

I just looked up Manhattan Island on Wikipedia. Its population density is about 70,000 people per square mile, and it's the most densely-populated county in the US. So having ~58,000 people in a little less space than that seems totally possible.

Also, the Chrysler Building is 318 meters tall. So the entire Macross in cruiser mode is about the same height as that.

I have to watch DYRL again, but it always seemed to me that the buildings inside the legs were too tall to fit inside.

Oh and I think I remember reading somewhere that the "70,000 civilians" number came from Robotech.

I've been working on the subs for SDFM, and last week, I took a long stretch and did all of episode 7 and half of episode 8. Somewhere in there, Global said "50,000 civilians."

[HannouHeiki]

Reminds me of the discussion in Battlestar forum that the Galactica should accomodate more people and Vipers than it did.

Everyone should also keep in mind that the "tiny" little real life aircraft carrier has a crew compliment of 5,000 people, aircraft, fuel, weapons, and provisions.

Considering that the Macross has maybe ten times the volume with gravity going in different directions, the population doesn't seem as much of a stretch. If living spaces are being used on the attached carriers, with enlisted grades living in bunks or small quarters, you might even get enough room for the buildings.

[VFTF1]

How many boys-only high schools would there be on the Macross? How many cafés and discos and restaurants would they realistically have?

Most likely, Macross City would not even really exist. They might have built dormitory-style rooms for all the civilians, but there's no earthly reason to go to all the trouble to rebuild the entire city inside the ship...except that it heps make the story fun and interesting.

This is a discussion where it becomes very easy to get side-tracked and led astray by the fallacy that statistics on the quantity of people and the space available have all the answers.

The entire city is rebuilt for the same reason that Minmey's aunt and uncle re-open the Nian Nian restaurant. Why shouldn't they? Don't people need and want chinese take out even on a space ship? Don't they want to go to the movies, take a girl out to a disco etc etc?

It is a natural human instinct to pursue happiness; and just because they are on a space ship with limited resources doesn't mean they can't do so. Earth has limited resources and yet look how much marginal productivity there is?

Basically - this is not a question of statistics but rather of economics.

Human beings would not wish to be simply regimented into dorms and have all of their resources mobilized for war.

This is, incidentially, the path that the Zendradi follow.

I think that we have to recognize that it's what's in the Macross's legs that gives it its' power. And it's the possibility of something like that existing that gives humans their power.

Nothing far fetched or magical about this.

Pete

[azrael]

The Compendium says 20,000 crew and ~58,000 civilians, which then drops down to 56,000, then down to 40,000 civilians.

[Macross007]

The Compendium says 20,000 crew and ~58,000 civilians, which then drops down to 56,000, then down to 40,000 civilians.

The 40,000 number probably comes from surviving civilians of Space War 1.

[dreamweaver13]

What really amazes me is that they have highways and cars. Do they run in circles (a mile and a half is a veeeery short distance)?

exactly. you'd think people could just walk to their destination, ne? specially since you could lower the level of artifical gravity and make walking easier.

[MDP310]

exactly. you'd think people could just walk to their destination, ne? specially since you could lower the level of artifical gravity and make walking easier.

Maybe instead of elevators they had areas of lower gravity, where you just needed to jump hard to go up a level. That would be pretty sweet.

[Killer Robot]

exactly. you'd think people could just walk to their destination, ne? specially since you could lower the level of artifical gravity and make walking easier.

For walking, as opposed to most other physical activity, low gravity just makes things harder. Throws off the normal pace of footsteps(which rely partly on falling speed), reduces your traction(since your inertia isn't changed but how hard your feet press to the floor is), and generally throws you off. It's something you can learn to deal with in time, certainly, but all those green recruits and poor civilians are another matter. Now, stairs become much nicer to climb, though coming down them might lead to dangerous temptations at some gravity levels.

[JB0]

This is a discussion where it becomes very easy to get side-tracked and led astray by the fallacy that statistics on the quantity of people and the space available have all the answers.

The entire city is rebuilt for the same reason that Minmey's aunt and uncle re-open the Nian Nian restaurant. Why shouldn't they? Don't people need and want chinese take out even on a space ship? Don't they want to go to the movies, take a girl out to a disco etc etc?

It is a natural human instinct to pursue happiness; and just because they are on a space ship with limited resources doesn't mean they can't do so. Earth has limited resources and yet look how much marginal productivity there is?

Basically - this is not a question of statistics but rather of economics.

And from the standpoint of the military commanders aboard the ship, it was a good way to manage morale, both of the civilians and the military.

Had they just kept them cooped up forever, they probably would've had a riot at some point.

...

Okay, that may've been a bad example.

But it gave the civilians the illusion of a normal life, and something to do besides stew in their own juices until they snapped.

And it gave the military something unprecedented in the history of naval vessels.

No matter where they were or what they were doing, shore leave was always available as long as you weren't on duty or in trouble.

Given the crew was not prepared for an extended voyage, and a lot of the positions filled by rush-trained civilians that hadn't intended to enlist until the situation forced their hand(with everyone on the Daedalus and Prometheus having sucked vacuum and died, there were a lot of empty mecha seats and support jobs to fill very fast, and the fighter pilots had a very high turnover rate)... it gave them something to do besides stew in their own juices until they snapped?

[RedWolf]

Well I always saw Macross as BSG with only one ship. Only in this case they knew where Earth is and in the end they were the survivors of their civilization.

Conditions on Earth were crappy in the early post-war years so it wouldn't be a surprise , especially those who experienced the voyage, to get the first ticket off world in a Megaroad.

[VFTF1]

Conditions on Earth were crappy in the early post-war years so it wouldn't be a surprise , especially those who experienced the voyage, to get the first ticket off world in a Megaroad

Yeah - actually, this leads me to something I was always wanting to see - namely a Macross story centered around people who STAYED on Earth - and the reasons why?

Ultimately, if you look at Macross Plus, it turns out that Eden is basically like a small town and getting a gig in the "big city" means going to Earth - Earth clearly had great importance, and while some of it was likely symbolic, it had to also be on account of technological progress.

Remember - the Factory Satelite orbited Earth - that thing could easily have been geared at some later stage towards mass production of earth-based cities.

If we presume that the Megaroads all had elaborate cities in them - which they did - then why wouldn't the factory satelite also be able to produce those cities on Earth - for Earth based use?

Finally - apocalyptic nuclear holocaust or not - people are still going to want to have sex

Pete

[SchizophrenicMC]

300 meter height is not a valid figure in this case.

300m is the height from Lowest point to highest antenna, not the height inside the legs.

I don't see why we can't just write it off as being anime magic. The Gundam fans would be fine with that and their blatant space issues. (Ahem, White Base and Archangel)

[Morpheus]

Remember - the Factory Satelite orbited Earth - that thing could easily have been geared at some later stage towards mass production of earth-based cities.

If we presume that the Megaroads all had elaborate cities in them - which they did - then why wouldn't the factory satelite also be able to produce those cities on Earth - for Earth based use?

Pete

I always wonders at the construction capability in SDF:M, the civilian rebuilt their city inside a storage room(?) with raw materials recovered from the remains of the island. But what bothered me is that they put the city in the leg/engine section, it probably like making a camp near a boiler room, I'm amazed at the environmental control there, since the city is free from the engine noises.

BTW, how long does it take to walk from NyanNyan restaurant to the bridge?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

There are two separate points to argue.

1. You can fit 1 million people into the SDF-1 and it'll be only about as cramped than the USS Nimitz (which is about as spacious and comfortable as a current fighting ship gets).

2. You CANNOT fit the damn park where Max fought Miria with knives, the friggin Big Open air areas where Max fought Miria with Mecha, the Damn Shao Pai Long studio, the dang military base where the battroid mode valks were walking round, the gawdamn stadium where Minmay keeps performing, that bloomin atrium area where Hikaru speaks with Minmay before he flies off, the longish roads we see, the bleedin' multi story hospital with airspace to spare where Hikaru was warded, the rather spacious shopping and eating areas, that great big artificial sky and damnit what else I forgot to mention into the SDF-1.

There is definitely at least as much anime magic in the Macross City depictions as a transformers show.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[bishopcruz]

There are two separate points to argue.

1. You can fit 1 million people into the SDF-1 and it'll be only about as cramped than the USS Nimitz (which is about as spacious and comfortable as a current fighting ship gets).

2. You CANNOT fit the damn park where Max fought Miria with knives, the friggin Big Open air areas where Max fought Miria with Mecha, the Damn Shao Pai Long studio, the dang military base where the battroid mode valks were walking round, the gawdamn stadium where Minmay keeps performing, that bloomin atrium area where Hikaru speaks with Minmay before he flies off, the longish roads we see, the bleedin' multi story hospital with airspace to spare where Hikaru was warded, the rather spacious shopping and eating areas, that great big artificial sky and damnit what else I forgot to mention into the SDF-1.

There is definitely at least as much anime magic in the Macross City depictions as a transformers show.

Hold on, I think what some people aren't taking into account is the height and width of those leg sections. Each of them looks to be about 200m wide and about as high, which BTW is REALLY damned high. Depending on how you do the layering you could probably have the equivalent of several square city blocks on say, 5 seperate floors, and still have room for 7 story buildings on each, plus a sky, generated above. each area would have about 9 square blocks of space. Not enough to really make cars feasable, but you can have a reasonably decent facsimile of a city in there. The magic comes in the long views. Unless the hologram system is also making it seem like the city stretches on for farther than it seems to.

DYRL as a whole has probably the most realistic possibility of what could happen (outside of the stadium, which would be ok if it had like 1/10th the capacity. I especially thought the date between Minmay and Hikaru showed a pretty "realistic" look, the vistas didn't extend very far, and even the park, while spacious, was surrounded by buildings, and even those seemed to be the end of the city.

I mean hell, we have cruise ships right now that are a fraction of the size of the legs of the SDF 1 that have a LOT of amenities, movie theaters, ice skating rinks, areas for full stage shows, interior shopping streets, several story high interior open areas, you name it. Imagine what you could pull off with triple the width and 3.5 times the height.

Some of the thing you mentioned would be out, the REALLY big stadium (the one when Khyron attacked was the absolute maximum size you could possibly have. and it would probably have to be on its own floor. But as I said the Macross dwarfs most skyscrapers in the world, it's just that frakking big.

Then again, the things I had the most trouble understanding the existence of were the smaller things, the roads with cars was one, but the HOTELS were another. I mean, they cannot be expecting much tourist trade, though now that I think about it I can see some soldiers trying to bring their lovers there for some "I'm a VF-1 pilot, I have the lifespan of tissue paper" nookie.

But of the stuff you listed, i think the only real problematic one, other than the stadium is where max and Milia fought, it seemed way too big.

[rusted180]

one thing i want to add is...in dyrl, when minmei was in the car with her cousin, they pass by a tunnel and a street that seems to have anti gravity controls that allows ppl to dwell upside down! i didnt notice this until recently, but check it out. im sure once the square footage runs out, ppl can always hang out and live upside down. maybe this is how they were able to fit so many ppl in such confined space.

[Kicker773]

very true because I popped in my JPN version of the newly released DYRL movie and you can clearly see stores upside down, perhaps to accommodate the growing population and the conservation of room space.

[anime52k8]

one thing i want to add is...in dyrl, when minmei was in the car with her cousin, they pass by a tunnel and a street that seems to have anti gravity controls that allows ppl to dwell upside down! i didnt notice this until recently, but check it out. im sure once the square footage runs out, ppl can always hang out and live upside down. maybe this is how they were able to fit so many ppl in such confined space.

that might be the case in the movie but practically, using gravity controls like that would be really impractical and potentially dangerous. even with SciFi alien technology, It's still going to be more complicated to maintain differently oriented pockets of gravity that work in limited areas and don't interfere with each other than it would be to maintain uniform gravity across the whole city. theirs also the problem of disorientation from changing orientation as you go from area to area of the city. but the biggest problem is that you need to run the gravity control system all the time. what do you do if you need to take the system off line for maintenance?

[HannouHeiki]

that might be the case in the movie but practically, using gravity controls like that would be really impractical and potentially dangerous. even with SciFi alien technology, It's still going to be more complicated to maintain differently oriented pockets of gravity that work in limited areas and don't interfere with each other than it would be to maintain uniform gravity across the whole city. theirs also the problem of disorientation from changing orientation as you go from area to area of the city. but the biggest problem is that you need to run the gravity control system all the time. what do you do if you need to take the system off line for maintenance?

If you're going to aruge how realistic gravity is, please let me know when you find out why the New Macross class transforms.

At least SDFM had a semi-explanation for the transformation and why it happened to be the largest transformer ever.

[Agent ONE]

Clown car.

Unfortunately the size v. population doesn't work out. They should have said the thing was 5 miles long or something.

[sharky]

Here is a scan which shows a sketch of one of the leg interior and the layout. You will notice the concert hall, so that might give you a sense for the size. Perhaps the other leg, which wasn't shown in the book I have, is laid out more densely as apartments. You can see various levels below the "ground level" which may have more living space perhaps, or maybe it's mechanical areas for the engine. Maybe you guys can draw some conclusions from this pic.

[Zentrandude]

the funny thing is it still had space for zentran-sized rooms and I assumed zentran-sized hallways.

[sharky]

the funny thing is it still had space for zentran-sized rooms and I assumed zentran-sized hallways.

Well, I think it's considered a small ship by Zentradi standards. And, perhaps that's why it has such large spaces for humans, and yet still contain all the needed mechanics and armaments of a military ship. A normal military vessel designed for humans would not have large empty spaces such as on the SDF-1.

[Kelsain]

So what do you think these huge open leg-spaces were used for by the Zentraedi crew?

[anime52k8]

So what do you think these huge open leg-spaces were used for by the Zentraedi crew?

storage space? Giant people need giant food, maybe they kept live giant cows in their or something?