Why, Why, Why?!? Are Robots Evil In America... But Heroes In Japan

[DJ Loe Kee]

why, why, why?!? are americans so afraid of robots. why can't robots be cool like they are in japan.

examples, the daily show on comedy central and even the attack of the show on g4 (i really thought that at least g4 would see robots as being cool) are always taking about how bad robots are. and just look at our movies. we have terminator and the matrix. even the transformers made the robots look "scary" instead of "cool". the only exception is star wars. but maybe we should put that movie into the eastern philosophy field, not western philosophy (the jedi are samurais and yoda speaks in subject-object-verb order a.k.a. japanese and korean, not subject-verb-object like the romance languages: english, french, italian, spanish, ect.).

but when we look at japan, the robot is the hero. gundam, macross, full metal panic, ect. astroboy...

i'm not trying to bring class warfare/education level into this... but are americans scared that robots are going to take their jobs??? the way i see it, an engineer or a computer programmer is not scared of them taking their job. is this something that factory workers/laborers/farm workers started because they got mad at machines (and robots) taking away their manual labor jobs way back in the 18th/19th century???

edit: i meant to say japan, my title is too long.

Edited April 27, 2009 by DJ Loe Kee

[taksraven]

Not all "American" robots are hostile and nasty.....

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Not all "American" robots are hostile and nasty.....

Taksraven

God...I haven't seen Twiki since the show went off the air...in my memory, he looked pretty lame, but seeing him again...ugh, he looks even WORSE than I recalled, bidi bidi bidi.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Gubaba

[DJ Loe Kee]

Not all "American" robots are hostile and nasty.....

Taksraven

i never had a chance to see buck rogers. i thought that he was from battlestar galactica until i googled his name.

[Gubaba]

i never had a chance to see buck rogers. i thought that he was from battlestar galactica until i googled his name.

No, Battlestar Galactica had the horrid robot dog. But I think Twiki was worse because A) he was in more scenes than the Daggit was, and B) he spoke.

[Vince]

because the American robots are either stupid or ugly

Edited April 26, 2009 by Vince

[Bri]

Still Buck Rogers had Erin Gray, which is totally off topic, but makes up for all flaws in the series.

[taksraven]

Still Buck Rogers had Erin Gray, which is totally off topic, but makes up for all flaws in the series.

What....do......you.....mean?????

[Gubaba]

Still Buck Rogers had Erin Gray, which is totally off topic, but makes up for all flaws in the series.

I dunno, the episode with the little alien guys with telekinetic powers saying "We must examine her!" made me pretty uncomfortable as a child.

Uncomfortable enough that I still remember it, when I've (blissfully) forgotten so many other things about that show...

[Cent]

are you kidding? What about Johnny Five??! Robocop! (although thats more cyborg) T-800? Okay that last one depends.

[taksraven]

More EXCELLENT robots.......

Taksraven

[sketchley]

Woah, talk about derail topic!

Back to the original question: it stems from culture. This stems from a couple of angles:

1 Individuality vs. collective - the individual (USA, Canada, etc.) takes on all challenges, human, moral, philosophical, robotic, and so on. The collective (Japan, Korea, etc.) work together in harmony - even if that includes the robotic.

2 personification of nature - pretty common in English language users: boats and cars referred to as "she", weather having moods, etc.. By attributing emotions to things, including robots, it also allows for the lack of apparent emotions to become an emotion. Despite the common sense that machines are inherently free from emotions, they tend to be described as cold blooded, merciless, and so on. Therefore, it's easy to make the switch into being evil incarnate. Compare that to Japan (Korea, etc.), where a machine is a tool. Just as a hammer helps you build structures, so too can a robot help you (Patlabor). Which is why we tend to find the bad guys in anime the users of robots (mecha), and generally the ones that are disrupting social harmony (not always, but if one examines things close enough), and not robots themselves.

3 Nationalism - As a non United States of American, my impression is that to the average United States of American, it's the USA vs. all others; including the robotic. If you've ever met a United States of American overseas, who has been away from his or her country too long and is complaining about everything in the visited country and how great things are in the USA, you'll know what I'm trying to say here. (I'm only adding this because the original question was directly about it. Otherwise, the "robots/mechanized people* can be bad" is pretty common in English productions.)

So yeah, it's a culture thing.

* Borg is the first that comes to mind here.

Edited April 26, 2009 by sketchley

[Beltane70]

If you look at most of the robots in Japan, you'll notice that they're usually not autonomous machines controlled by an on-board AI. A Gundam or Valkyrie without a pilot is as useless as a car without a driver.

Robots in most American works are usually self-operating machines with an advanced AI system.

[Ghost Train]

You are all analyzing this too much. It's really just a coincidence. And as it has already been pointed out, there are plenty of examples of "good" toasters er... I mean artificial life-forms. Also, I can't believe no one has mentioned Data - the ultimate goody 2 shoes android.

The OP's argument is flawed. Sure, the hero is a mecha/robot, but so is the villain . Then by definition, since the villain is also a robot or observed piloting a mecha, then doesn't that mean that the Japanese are also afraid of robots ?

Furthermore regarding how this all stems from fear of loosing jobs, I am from Detroit, the city that has been most affected by outsourcing, overseas manufacturing, and home to the Fail-Three automotive. Believe me... there aren't any factories at least belonging to the major automakers that still build stuff by hand. It's all robotic too. It's been that way for a long time. We are a generation behind with respect to hybrid vehicle tech, but not in the stone age.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Max Jenius]

There are plenty of Japanese shows/stories with evil robots....

[Ghost Train]

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention. If the critique is that people in the US fear artificial intelligence in general (after all a robot is a tool, AI is its soul), you only need to look at the list of prominent scientists who have contributed to the area of robotics and AI to realize it's just a myth:

Link

You will find on that list quite a large number of non-Asians, mostly Americans and Brits, who have actually contributed to research. To suggest that somehow there is a cultural fear of AI/mecha/robots is ridiculous.

[DJ Loe Kee]

You are all analyzing this too much. It's really just a coincidence. And as it has already been pointed out, there are plenty of examples of "good" toasters er... I mean artificial life-forms. Also, I can't believe no one has mentioned Data - the ultimate goody 2 shoes android.

The OP's argument is flawed. Sure, the hero is a mecha/robot, but so is the villain . Then by definition, since the villain is also a robot or observed piloting a mecha, then doesn't that mean that the Japanese are also afraid of robots ?

Furthermore regarding how this all stems from fear of loosing jobs, I am from Detroit, the city that has been most affected by outsourcing, overseas manufacturing, and home to the Fail-Three automotive. Believe me... there aren't any factories at least belonging to the major automakers that still build stuff by hand. It's all robotic too. It's been that way for a long time. We are a generation behind with respect to hybrid vehicle tech, but not in the stone age.

i actually got my idea for this thread from a clip on tv show that happen to show terminator vs. japanese robots. but i can't find the clip now. i thought that clip came from the daily show but i found nothing when i searched their website.

edit:

i remember now. it wasn't a clip, it was a guest on the daily show (or colbert show) who had a new book talking about robots. he mentioned terminator vs. the japanese robots. no wonder i couldn't find it when i searched robots on the daily show's website.

Edited April 26, 2009 by DJ Loe Kee

[Max Jenius]

But Terminator is just one example, really. Sure, it's a popular franchise but you could just as easily say that Americans think the concept of Time Travel is evil.

[sharky]

Let's be fair. There are plenty of examples of good robots. I don't think it's anything cultural rather it just makes more compelling story telling to have bad robots running loose. Good=boring, Bad=exciting, it's been that way for a long time. There are plenty of bad robots in Japanese stories. In fact, all of the examples you mentioned are not really robots; rather, they are machines directly controlled by humans.

Some good American robots of note:

Edited April 26, 2009 by sharky

[Einherjar]

Edited April 26, 2009 by Einherjar

[m0n5t3r]

Not all "American" robots are hostile and nasty.....

Taksraven

LOL haven't seen this in a long long long time!

a sign of those times when robot heads and SW helmets sported the phalic shape design...

[taksraven]

Let's be fair. There are plenty of examples of good robots. I don't think it's anything cultural rather it just makes more compelling story telling to have bad robots running loose. Good=boring, Bad=exciting, it's been that way for a long time. There are plenty of bad robots in Japanese stories. In fact, all of the examples you mentioned are not really robots; rather, they are machines directly controlled by humans.

Some good American robots of note:

Don't forget......

Edited April 26, 2009 by taksraven

[Warmaker]

It's settled. We in the USA love our robots in all kinds of flavors, good and evil

Oh, and WORD to Colonel Deering. One of the main (I think) reasons why I watched the reruns of Buck Rogers.

[MDP310]

If you look at most of the robots in Japan, you'll notice that they're usually not autonomous machines controlled by an on-board AI. A Gundam or Valkyrie without a pilot is as useless as a car without a driver.

Robots in most American works are usually self-operating machines with an advanced AI system.

I think you're right. A lot of robots in anime have no intelligence and are piloted by people. Most of the "evil" ones in American fiction have AI which goes haywire, or decides it simply doesn't like people. There are good ones that people have mentioned, like WALL-E and the Lost in Space robot.

Hey, Sharon Apple was an AI who went totally insane. And since she took over the Macross, that would kind of make her a (really huge) robot, wouldn't it?

[kung flu]

In both east and west there is good and bad robots. Good robots vs bad robots like transformers etc....... I don't think its that big a difference, but if we look at dragons, in the west they are bad, but in the east they are good.

[VFTF1]

I generally tend to agree that there are just as many good and bad robots in both Japanese and American culture...

Also - It is worth pointing out that often times the robots in Japanese culture are neither good or bad - they have pilots who are complex.

I mean - not all the Gundam pilots have been without fault; same for most every other mecha pilot. And often times the "bad guy" mecha would turn good or there would be moral equivalence between them (remember the Zaku pilot with his own island?)

In any event - I don't think this is an issue... unless somebody did some hard statistics showing that a significant percentage of American robots are "evil" or something...

Pete

[boota]

Japan has equal amount of evil robots as the heroes. This thread should be retitled, Why, Why, Why?!? Are Robots SO FUGLY In America... But Beautiful In Japan.

[Sulendil Ang]

Actually, my bigger concern is why there is few piloted robot in western culture compared to Japanese? Sure, there is MechWarrior/BattleTech and Megas XLR, but compared to Mazingers, Getter Robos, Gundams, Valks, and much, much more, it seems that no one in US like to pilot a giant robot.

[Gubaba]

Actually, my bigger concern is why there is few piloted robot in western culture compared to Japanese? Sure, there is MechWarrior/BattleTech and Megas XLR, but compared to Mazingers, Getter Robos, Gundams, Valks, and much, much more, it seems that no one in US like to pilot a giant robot.

Not only that, but pretty much ALL piloted western robots are influenced by Japanese robots. It's like no one in America even thought of it until someone saw Mazinger or something and said, "Hey, look what they're doing! Can we do that?"

[Mr March]

I think the differences between eastern and western audiences accepting different mechanical designs can be attributed to factors such as the expectation of presentation and perception of those two audiences.

For one, we North Americans don't categorize our mechanical and robotic creations under the same "mecha" umbrella. There are no "mecha genres" in western culture, only science fiction. Most western fans, even those familiar with anime (like ourselves), don't categorize western-designed mechanical creations as "mecha," even if they are. For example, when you ask a North American sci-fi fan to provide an example of "western mecha", most of them run to the nearest "giant Japanese robot" equivalent such as Warhammer, Battletech or Starcraft (if they are even familiar with these games). Few North American fans would point to Iron Man, Robocop, or The Master Chief (Halo) as their first example of "mecha." This is probably because western robots are smaller and generally not large enough to be "piloted." After all, you don't pilot a Terminator

Also, most western robots need to be designed in such a way that they appeal to a broader audience than just pre-teens or early-teens. Most Japanese-designed mecha are created in the same manner as our western super heroes, with bright primary colors and garish, overly-stylized designs. When super heroes become adapted to the screen, these colorful elements and adolescent trappings are often removed (X-Men, Batman, Watchmen, etc) and they are re-imagined for live action in a much more grounded, realistic visual presentation. There are exceptions (Superman, Spider-Man), but exceptions exist in Japanese anime as well.

Another factor in east vs. west mindset is the varying degrees of acceptance found in every audience, even among anime fans. For example, we Macross fans have often criticized Gundam's brightly colored "clown mecha" as unrealistic. In comparison to our favoured Macross valkyries, which we perceive as generally far less garish, these Gundams fall outside the acceptance of some of us. So even among Japanese mecha fans, here we have a debate about how far our suspension of disbelief can be stretched. The broader mainstream audiences have these tendencies as well and the broader the audience, the more you have to appeal to a broader taste. This is especially true when comparing the audience for live action vs. the far smaller audience for an animation. For most North American audiences, asking them to accept mecha as ornamental and colorful as those found in Gundam, Macross or Evangelion is like asking them to watch a live action X-Men with Hugh Jackman dressed in yellow spandex

So the issue is a bit more complex than "Japanese robots are beautiful, western robots are ugly." For my part, western mechanical designs are just as awesome as eastern mechanical designs. I like Nolan's Tumbler in Batman Begins/The Dark Knight every bit as much as I like Kawamori's VF-25 Messiah in Macross Frontier. The VF-25 Messiah wins the pretty award, the Tumbler wins the realism award. Macross mecha appeal to my childhood loves, the Batman mecha appeal to my adult loves. Besides, Favreau's Iron Man was one of the sexiest, prettiest mechanical designs I've ever seen, including anything from Japan.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Mr March

[kung flu]

Lets not forget the cool starwars mechas like the AT AT etc.......Any vehicle that has limbs classes as a robot or mech to me.

The west are use to having super heroes and the east are use to robots. Just look at video games, robot games don't do well in the west as they do in the east, the same with shows. Its all about pop culture, the more popular a genre the more widely accepted it becomes which in turn would influence peoples opinnions and perceptions.

[dizman]

[Gubaba]

[DJ Loe Kee]

that reminds me of teddy ruxpin.

[Bri]

The division between east and west in terms of robots in popular media seems rather artificial to me.

Artificial life and the fear of being replaced or controlled by your own creation are themes that are popular since the dawn of the industrial revolution. These themes can be found in the whole industrialised world. So evil robots from Japan or America draw from the same source.

As for piloted mecha:

As mentioned before in this thread sentient robots in Japan were similar in the 50s and 60s to superheros in America. A kids power fantasy, the superhero or robot would take on the bad guys and the child was the side kick. The ultimate rolemodel/big brother fantasy. I guess the visual variation is mainly due to local influences to what people can accept in terms of realism.

At some point during the 60s/70s the focus shifted from role models to the child themselves becoming the hero. In Japan the lead became the pilot of a non sentient mecha, in the US the kid became Spiderman and co. Same concepts, different visualisation.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Bri