From Chunky-Monkey to Wasp-Waist

[Radd]

For me it's a mixed bag. The VF-1 is only my second favourite VF, my favourite being the VF-4 which has both my favourite fighter and battroid modes. I have to say, though, that the VF-25 has my favourite gerwalk mode, the VF-1 coming in second for that category. I love designs like the VA-3 Invader and the Variable Glaug. Not every VF has to be the prettiest princess at the ball. And I really love some of the later designs, like the VF-17, the VF-14, and the Advanced Valkyrie designs.

I still don't think the VF-25 is a very cluttered design. I really believe that misconception stems from the CG models retaining so much more detail than line art. Also, the promotional shots of the models we've been seeing tend to be poorly lit and posed.

[VF5SS]

so is that a hase kit transformed?

That's a CAD design from 1984. It gives you an idea of what a CAD designed VF-1 would have looked like back then.

[anime52k8]

For me it's a mixed bag. The VF-1 is only my second favourite VF, my favourite being the VF-4 which has both my favourite fighter and battroid modes. I have to say, though, that the VF-25 has my favourite gerwalk mode, the VF-1 coming in second for that category. I love designs like the VA-3 Invader and the Variable Glaug. Not every VF has to be the prettiest princess at the ball. And I really love some of the later designs, like the VF-17, the VF-14, and the Advanced Valkyrie designs.

I still don't think the VF-25 is a very cluttered design. I really believe that misconception stems from the CG models retaining so much more detail than line art. Also, the promotional shots of the models we've been seeing tend to be poorly lit and posed.

totally agree.

That's a CAD design from 1984. It gives you an idea of what a CAD designed VF-1 would have looked like back then.

wow. technological progress much...

[ErikElvis]

I have to say I like the look of the old VF's. The new ones look too much like gundam in battroid mode.

[Midi_Amp]

I too prefer the old valk designs, YF-19 and YF-21 especially struck a chord somewhere. VF-25 and VF-27 to me looks like supermodel on a diet, pretty at first glance but gets boring real quick. What I dislike about the VF-25 design is its head... Too complicated and technically speaking... The VF-25 supposed to be the pinnacle of valk design, but no internal missile bays? Heck, VF-19 has it, and it's 19 years prior to VF-25 debut.

But for all the hullabaloo, it is stated that the VF-25 is developed independently by Macross Frontier fleet. As such, I believe Kawamori-san took a safe approach regarding the introduction of the VF-25. If the design is deemed awkward enough by the fans, Kawamori-san can just say... "well, it is made by some private company and has no heritage to the VF-1 project" and off he goes to the drawing board making VF-33 designed in the new series by the original Shinsei Industry taking design cues from whatever the fans wanted. It's business, it's safe and it's relevant.

[Vostok 7]

While the VF-25 isn't my favorite design, it's grown on me quite a bit. I don't mind the "wasp-waistedness" because think of it, this is a transforming fighter jet. Not that a battroid needs to particularly be aerodynamic, but weight savings and keeping the fighter as sleek as possible are key.

Of course, a lot of that is negated by the fact that VF-25s are used primarily in space where aerodynamics are meaningless.

Vostok 7

[anime52k8]

If the design is deemed awkward enough by the fans, Kawamori-san can just say... "well, it is made by some private company and has no heritage to the VF-1 project" and off he goes to the drawing board making VF-33 designed in the new series by the original Shinsei Industry taking design cues from whatever the fans wanted. It's business, it's safe and it's relevant.

I doubt we'll ever see that day where SK has to make some excuse for his designs. I get the feeling that he makes the designs he wants to and doesn't give a crap if the viewing public hates it.

[badboy00z]

If we also compare the swing bars of the 25 to the similar upper-chest mechanism of the YF-19, I'd say that, proportionally, the VF-25 has a sturdier core body setup because there's more meat between the flanks of the robot and where the pilot is located. For the 19 (or any valkyrie, really) to have a more robust waistline than the 25, the cockpit would have to be much thicker width, which wouldn't lend itself well to a high-performance aerodynamic design.

I have to disagree. The cockpit of the 25 in battroid mode is covered only by the back plate. It leaves the sides open as seen on the toy and even the model kit. It looks very vulnerable. While they both transform in a similar way, I feel that the 19 is a lot more sturdy because the backpack entirely covers the cockpit.

[anime52k8]

I have to disagree. The cockpit of the 25 in battroid mode is covered only by the back plate. It leaves the sides open as seen on the toy and even the model kit. It looks very vulnerable. While they both transform in a similar way, I feel that the 19 is a lot more sturdy because the backpack entirely covers the cockpit.

the back plate does cover the whole cockpit. both the toy's and models of the 25 are inacurate in that the back plate can't fully cover the canopy, but in the animation it actually does.

[Cent]

Is the cockpit supposed to dig in deeper to the backplate then? Or does the back have more curvature? *starts gouging out the VF-25's innards*

Edited April 8, 2009 by Cent

[badboy00z]

the back plate does cover the whole cockpit. both the toy's and models of the 25 are inacurate in that the back plate can't fully cover the canopy, but in the animation it actually does.

Yeah it does because of anime magic. But it's not like the 19 where it completely wraps around it. It just seems like an afterthought to me.

[Cent]

There really aren't that many angles that expose the cockpit while its in battroid. Besides, I think that's what SK meant when he said that the VF-25 would not be quite as heavily armored and bulky like the others. Diversification is good!

[anime52k8]

Yeah it does because of anime magic. But it's not like the 19 where it completely wraps around it. It just seems like an afterthought to me.

if were going to bring up anime magic then the VF-25 is better simply because it transformation ACTUALLY WORKS and doesn't rely entirely on parts completely changing shape and size.

[regult]

Taking on the cockpit covered by the backplate issue: if you think anime magic was gone with CG, you're really wrong...in Macross Zero, most mecha combat was CG animation, I believe in Frontier 100% of the mecha action was CG, still, there is A LOT of anime magic and concessions...like most dramatic poses you'll never achieve with any model or toy available because solid stuff cannot just blend/sink into each other.

Below are some screencaps of sequences lasting no more than 1 second is some cases...

I think the 1/72 plamo is really close to the CG model they used in the show, and certainly there is no more "where did that go during transformation" in the VF-25, so what I am saying is, maybe because of this, some concessions on proportions need to be accepted. That's why I am not sure Macross 7 mecha can be made into transformable lineart-accurate or anime-accurate toy/models in all three modes.

I think it is simply cool that fiction mecha designs can be made into physical models, wasp waist or not, I think the VF-25 is the closest I've got to it.

EDIT: I want to add, I consider these "anime magic" concessions for the sake of a dramatic sequence and not really animation errors (like the head of the Alto custom being with or without the red/black stripes in fighter mode from scene to scene), and stress they don't fall into the category of "where did that go upon transformation" or as anime53k8 puts it "parts completely changing shape and size"

Edited April 8, 2009 by regult

[Vostok 7]

I love this idea that people have gotten that "it's designed in CG, there can't be any anime magic!". CG can allow just as much or even more anime magic than hand-drawn animation. The only difference is CG is more consistant.

Vostok 7

[badboy00z]

if were going to bring up anime magic then the VF-25 is better simply because it transformation ACTUALLY WORKS and doesn't rely entirely on parts completely changing shape and size.

No, I'm saying that the cockpit is covered because of anime magic. If it was perfect then the model should be able to cover the cockpit as well.

[badboy00z]

There really aren't that many angles that expose the cockpit while its in battroid.

In theory and animation yes. But all of the physical models that we have doesn't.

[MDP310]

In theory and animation yes. But all of the physical models that we have doesn't.

So the cockpit is still kinda-sorta exposed on the 1/72, too? I've seen it pretty blatantly exposed from certain angles on the DX.

Edited April 8, 2009 by MDP310

[logos]

God I love collision errors!

[badboy00z]

So the cockpit is still kinda-sorta exposed on the 1/72, too? I've seen it pretty blatantly exposed from certain angles on the DX.

Yeah a little bit.

[edwin3060]

So the cockpit is still kinda-sorta exposed on the 1/72, too? I've seen it pretty blatantly exposed from certain angles on the DX.

Looking at it side on pretty much exposes the entire cockpit, even on the model kit.