From Chunky-Monkey to Wasp-Waist

[SchizophrenicMC]

Valkyrie?

Valkyrie.

'Nuff said.

IT'S UNCANNY!

[Cent]

1. VF-0's advanced tech. While the VF-0 does feel like its more advanced than the VF-1, it remains inferior to the YF-19, VF-19 and so on. The M7 and M+ series was produced before M0, but thankfully, retains their tech superiority. I can't make any excuses for the VF-1 though.

2. The insect-waist. I think the VF-1's conical waist was pretty thin as well. I believe that the SV-51 and the VF-25 have a similar waist transformation system, but with the SV-51 being the thicker of the two. That's not such a great comparison though, since the SV-51 is also very lanky for a VF. The YF-19 has a pretty thin waist that transforms upwards as well, like the VF-25, and I thought it was of acceptable diameter. Keep in mind that Japanese mecha all have a tendency to bulk up the legs, chest and arms, so it makes the waist seem pretty small. Just look at Full Metal Panic's tech progression of Arm Slaves. Fatter = Low tech. I don't mind that the VF-25 is more frail than any of the previous VFs if SK just wants to do something different for a change. I'm all for valks that look different from each other, as in brings in a new line of refreshing toys with innovative designs. But I do hope that the next Macross series will do something different again.

3. My biggest gripe with the VF-25 design isn't the waist, but rather how the wings lock in battroid. While it's a new approach to the battroid design, not only does it look delicate, but it creates a weakness in the toy wing hinge, where the wings fold up. The super packs have so much weight there that the entire body and wings tend to droop in gerwalk mode, and there's not a lot you can do about it. On top of that, just think about a situation where the VF-25 was thrown into buildings ala YF-19 vs YF-21. Those wings would snap off immediately if their back collided with anything. The wing/back folding design is brittle, relies soley on the strength of a hinge, and is fixed into a position where it is highly vulnerable. You'd think that the fictional VF designers would avoid designing something like that.

[Graham]

I never thought that the Frontier mecha were insect like or organic.

Graham

[Cent]

Well it was supposed to be akin to the Galactic Fairy... Or more like anorexic fairy.

[kanedaestes]

I feel that though the wings on the 25 are odd that by now they have enough new technology to protect the wings and hinges. They have been times we see the wings getting blown off but they still held up very well most times.

[Graham]

Actually, for the VF-25 battroid, the image of an angel always came to mind while watching the show, never an insect. The Vajra were the insects.

Graham

[Radd]

The VF-0 was never shown to have tech more advanced than what we can reasonably assume the VF-1 had. Anything that appeared more advanced about it can be chalked up to both more modern animation, and a design aesthetic more similar to contemporary planes. As someone else mentioned it is larger, bulkier, and overall clunkier looking than the sleeker, smaller VF-1. It helps to compare the two in respective scale. I can definitely see what people mean when they say it looks more advanced, overall it has a more modern design aesthetic.

It seems to me that a lot of the comments regarding the "slimming down" of Valkyries are exaggerated to an extreme. The YF/VF-19 and 21 aren't any slimmer than the VF-1's overall design. Neither is the VF-17. Comments about "wasp waisted" Valkyries are pretty funny considering the VF-1's waist consists solely of the nose of the fighter, not exactly bulky. I would agree that the VF-25 has an overall leaner appearance. It seems designed with FAST packs in mind. And the 25 has the bulkiest FAST packs yet.

The VA-3 was just an idea Kawamori came up with around the time that Macross Plus was in production, but it was never actually used.

Unless I'm misremembering, the VA-3 shows up in Macross 7 Dynamite.

[jedimech]

Yeah, never ever have the insect-like feeling when i see the VF-25.

I thought they look very elegant & agile.

Anyway, that is just my thoughts.

Cheers!!

[DarrinG]

I would like to check out the Macross II destroids but did not see them here:

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macross2/macross2-index.html

Is there another place to see these destroids "on steroids" as they've been called?

I still think this is the best VF design since the originals - it doesn't seem to get much love in these MW circles:

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macross2/vf-2ss.htm

By contrast, the VF25 is an fragile looking, over-designed, cluttered up, samurai insect . . .

[DarrinG]

Ahhh - maybe this is why the VF2SS doesn't get as much love here:

"Macross II is categorized as a parallel world and is not part of the official Macross continuity

AD 2092 (parallel world)"

Maybe I need to go to the "newbie" area to educate myself.

But out of these 2 I know which I would want to pilot! (maybe someone here will point out why the VF2SS isn't as good as it looks though)

[jenius]

I would want to fly the VF-25 in that pic... at least the VF-25 can look left or right without staring directly into its own chest plate. Beyond that MacII designs (I suspect) are generally dismissed by many Mac fans for just being obvious re-works of existing designs. There's essentially nothing original about the VF-2SS, all it is is a simple 90s-ifying of the VF-1 design.

[Bri]

Don't really see the issue. I like the Macross II valks aswell as the Frontier ones. We are talking about tranformable jets, if you want bulky designs look at the destroids or gundam.

Time moves on and you can't expect animators not to use what they have learned in the last 25 years.

[DarrinG]

Oh - I guess that shows my age.

Looking at my own chest plate or not, it looks like the VF2SS could beat the tar out of the VF25.

You're right, the VF2SS does look like an update the the original designs, that's probably why I like it so much.

After looking more at that UN Spacey site, I think the super armor Frontier designs are cluttered and very badly done compared to Macross and Macross II.

BUT - I graduated high school in 90 - so there ya go.

I'm not against all modern mech designs like it sounds though. These Super Robot Wars designs look modern, beefy and less cluttered to me . . .

[DarrinG]

Don't really see the issue. I like the Macross II valks aswell as the Frontier ones. We are talking about tranformable jets, if you want bulky designs look at the destroids or gundam.

Time moves on and you can't expect animators not to use what they have learned in the last 25 years.

To your Point - It would be difficult to get those SR Wars mechs to transform into a sleek plane. But it seems like a better balance of beefy and transformable was achieved in the past.

The Frontier VFs seem to be sacrificing too much coolness in the battroid design for the sleekness of the other modes.

Does that makes sense? Or am I just being a ol' fuddy-duddy?

[Lynx7725]

I think the biggest thing I have against later Valkyrie designs is twofold -- one, they started looking too super-robotist, with faces and boobies.. I mean, these are war machines, they aren't meant for show biz, give me milspec and I'm happy.

Second, I really dislike that post-SDF1, almost all the designs try too hard. VF-1 is a very simple design; single-seater, variable sweep, folding torso transformable mecha. The current models? Multi-segmented, rotating, move-here-click-there-fold-don't-know-where-that-goes. Even the YF-21, in its simple design, doesn't quite come close to the VF-1 in simplicity and elegance.

Complexity in military equipment isn't a good thing, because they are often operated by idiots. Something as complex as a VF-25 is more likely a hanger queen than an actual fighter IMO.

[anime52k8]

Ahhh - maybe this is why the VF2SS doesn't get as much love here:

But out of these 2 I know which I would want to pilot! (maybe someone here will point out why the VF2SS isn't as good as it looks though)

macII valks get no love because they look like ass. the VF-2SS is the least offensive of the lot and it's still sucks; it's a VF-1 with blind spots, goofy split toes, a stubby nose and a stepped on fighter mode.

After looking more at that UN Spacey site, I think the super armor Frontier designs are cluttered and very badly done compared to Macross and Macross II.

you actually think this mess is designed well?

I'm truelly perplexed.

To your Point - It would be difficult to get those SR Wars mechs to transform into a sleek plane. But it seems like a better balance of beefy and transformable was achieved in the past.

I don't understand your obsession with "beefy." the SRW mechs look chunky and generic, that's about all.

The Frontier VFs seem to be sacrificing too much coolness in the battroid design for the sleekness of the other modes.

the Frontier VF's have great battroid modes. the slim look works well for a high performance machine, the idea of a big bulky robot like those SRW mechs or some of the bigger MS's from gundam being able to do what a valk does is just laughable.

Does that makes sense? Or am I just being a ol' fuddy-duddy?

it doesn't and you are.

[DarrinG]

VF25 - a 'high performance machine' - yeah - with a pocket knife.

How about 'spindly samurai insect'.

The VF2SS fighter heavy armor looks like a heavy armor space machine. Never saw the anime so maybe it doesn't perform so well.

I've never seen other shows really besides the original that's why my perspective was unique. I'm not a fan of Macross II in any way, or Frontier. You must have seen Frontier and become a fan and its now clouding your judgement.

But thanks for clearly things up for me, I'm not being a fuddy-duddy, just unbiased . . .

[eriku]

Oh - I guess that shows my age.

BUT - I graduated high school in 90 - so there ya go.

I'm not sure how age is relevant in terms of this discussion. There are plenty of people here your age, some possibly older, that have no problems with Frontier designs or modern designs in general. People just have different tastes.

[eriku]

VF25 - a 'high performance machine' - yeah - with a pocket knife.

How about 'spindly samurai insect'.

The VF2SS fighter heavy armor looks like a heavy armor space machine. Never saw the anime so maybe it doesn't perform so well.

I've never seen other shows really besides the original that's why my perspective was unique. I'm not a fan of Macross II in any way, or Frontier. You must have seen Frontier and become a fan and its now clouding your judgement.

But thanks for clearly things up for me, I'm not being a fuddy-duddy, just unbiased . . .

A lot of us were quite familiar with the Frontier designs well before seeing the series. I already had the DX toy preordered before seeing any of the series. Most people here just like what they like and have fun with it, there's no need for any of us to pretend our opinions are better, unbiased or at some kind of higher level. You don't like Frontier designs, big deal. Just because you can't understand the appeal of something doesn't make it bad.

[anime52k8]

VF25 - a 'high performance machine' - yeah - with a pocket knife.

How about 'spindly samurai insect'.

The VF2SS fighter heavy armor looks like a heavy armor space machine. Never saw the anime so maybe it doesn't perform so well.

I've never seen other shows really besides the original that's why my perspective was unique. I'm not a fan of Macross II in any way, or Frontier. You must have seen Frontier and become a fan and its now clouding your judgement.

But thanks for clearly things up for me, I'm not being a fuddy-duddy, just unbiased . . .

I saw Frontier and I am a fan but I liked the design long before watching the show. What shows I like and dislike have no barring on my opinion of the mecha design.

but since you can't change someones personal tastes (as poor as they are) there's really no point in continuing this discussion is there.

[DarrinG]

Fair, I agree. For example, people did buy the Pontiac Aztec and it wouldn't be right for me to walk up to them and say they coulda had a RAV4 for the same money.

They were in the middle of enjoying it and it in bad taste to try to steal their fun.

I was just conversating and wondering if it was just me that thought the new designs were looking a little too 'spindly' compared to the heavier VFs of old . . .

I need to watch some of the new anime (when I find time) and see if that gives me a different perspective.

[eriku]

Fair, I agree. For example, people did buy the Pontiac Aztec and it wouldn't be right for me to walk up to them and say they coulda had a RAV4 for the same money.

No, you have every right to do that. And they have every right to say, "But I don't like the RAV4..."

I totally get the 'spindly' or 'anorexic' descriptives that people bring up about the Frontier valks and some other modern robots. It's just that not everyone dislikes this direction. Some people like it better than the older designs, some people hate it, some people (and I include myself here) just appreciate the designs on a different yet parallel level.

There are plenty of designs out there that I just 'don't get'. Like a lot of SRW robots. Something about them just doesn't appeal to me. There are even designs that I found wretched at first and then ended up finding a great appreciation for, like the Evangelion EVA units.

Edited April 3, 2009 by eriku

[CF18]

I'm not against all modern mech designs like it sounds though. These Super Robot Wars designs look modern, beefy and less cluttered to me . . .

That's a weird design you choose, since even the characters in the games think it is a crazy design. In fact it is more bug-like than most - it is designed to look like a beetle with large horn. It also got the strangest meele weapon - a revolver stake. The boxes on the shoulders are not missle pack - they shoot metal pieces like two large shotguns.

The Alt is an experimental design base on the original Gespenst. It is suppose to a be well armoured fast assult unit. In the game it is rather hard to use - it is no as well armoured and high HP as the large supers, and it don't dodge as well as other small 'real' types.

The Alteisen Riese is an upgraded rebuild after Alt was almost destroyed. It is so unbalanced it need an anti-gravity engine just to stand on the ground without falling over.

Edited April 3, 2009 by CF18

[regult]

There are two issues here: 1) beefy/anorexic 2) retcon problems

First, If beefy is your preference, then Macross7 was VF heaven for you: very fat legs, thick shoulders, chubby overall, big heads, you name it. I may be alone, but I do like the longer legs and thinner shapes of the later (in real-life chronology SV-51, VF-25/27) VFs. I am very happy with the zigzag lines and tallness of the VF-25 battroid: actually in all 3 modes it looks fast and dynamic. I am right now looking at the Yamato 1/60 V2.0 VF-1 and the Bandai plamo 1/72 VF-25F...the latter seems it's going to just fly out of my desktop while the other guy is just standing there (I know, toy/model comparison is not all that fair). Just wished they had assigned the VF-25/27 a larger scale, the 1/72 pilot in the cockpit looks more like a 1/100 gunpla pilot! I see the VF-25/27 as over 20m long, much like the SV-51 (there is a pattern...I like long legs!). Insect??? Vajra's are lobsters and other seafood+ladybug...maybe that was an aesthetic choice to differenciate it from the straight lines in the latest Gundams?? I think it is within bearable limits.

Second, advanced looking yes, but the VF-0 is definitely made to transform intentionally more like the VF-1 (almost EXACTLY the same way) than other "future" designs (Macross Plus, 2040's...). I am more pissed at the SV-51 at that, which honestly ressembles more the VF-25/27 in terms of proportions, transformation and even cosmetics.The huge "cockpit" between the legs in the VF-1 and VF-0 has always been too phalic IMO...I think Kawamori-san consciously started avoiding that after VF-1 but with the VF-0 (so many years after SDF) he intentionally revisited the classic, simplest of all transformations for the sake of continuity...retcon or not. Then there was market appeal, it was the 21st Century and there were toys to be made...new fans to be brought into the franchise!

By the way, I do have 1/72 diecast F-14s sitting in the same display case as my VF-0 and VF-1, the latter does NOT look more like the F-14 than its "predecessor" to me.

[DarrinG]

Great take, I see all your points.

The only further thing I might add is the test of time with these designs.

20 years from now will the VF25 be celebrated in the same breath (or close) with the other VFs of the distant past?

Those things are hard to see at the present time.

But later, like when 2 people have 'used cars to sell', one a RAV4 the other an Aztec, finding a buyer can shed some light on which design has past the test of time, and which design didn't do so well.

[regult]

I think the biggest thing I have against later Valkyrie designs is twofold -- one, they started looking too super-robotist, with faces and boobies.. I mean, these are war machines, they aren't meant for show biz, give me milspec and I'm happy.

Complexity in military equipment isn't a good thing, because they are often operated by idiots. Something as complex as a VF-25 is more likely a hanger queen than an actual fighter IMO.

Sorry, missed your post before replying! You actually have a very good point here. Idiots like me are also assembling and decalling the model kits, and barely surviving the process!!! But since this is SCIFI action, I will keep giving credit to the mecha designers (Be it Kawamiri himself or a team) for making or at least trying to make such intricate and impressive-looking products. But they definitely look great in the display cabinet, not the battlefield (yeah, make a battroid with wings folded at the dorsal roll around, transform and still fly away with wings straight!? go do that with your toy!).

(EDIT: For a battleground giant robot, I pick ZakuII, my favorite military looking mecha of all time: it JUST looks right (in olive drab livery) with infantry, tanks, jeeps, whatever. The Centurion/Roman "skirt" (not sure what's the proper term, sorry) also adds some flavor to it.

Edited April 3, 2009 by regult

[ntsan]

Well guys it is ANIME, I guess you watch too much national geography lol

I doubt any y gen is interesting on realistic anime in Japan

[VF5SS]

What do you expect an airplane folded in half to look like?

[Dio]

3. My biggest gripe with the VF-25 design isn't the waist, but rather how the wings lock in battroid. While it's a new approach to the battroid design, not only does it look delicate, but it creates a weakness in the toy wing hinge, where the wings fold up. The super packs have so much weight there that the entire body and wings tend to droop in gerwalk mode, and there's not a lot you can do about it. On top of that, just think about a situation where the VF-25 was thrown into buildings ala YF-19 vs YF-21. Those wings would snap off immediately if their back collided with anything. The wing/back folding design is brittle, relies soley on the strength of a hinge, and is fixed into a position where it is highly vulnerable. You'd think that the fictional VF designers would avoid designing something like that.

On the topic of the wing transformation, the YF-19 folds both its wings in half Swiss-army-knife style and then holds them on with pins that amount to little more than a belt clip. The YF-21 does the same with its underbody panels, while its wings fold neatly into the backpack.

The VF-1 folds them straight back, but in such a way as to prevent the legs from rotating more than about 45 degrees forward without having to move them out of the way to provide clearance (seen occasionally on super-pack models with wing-mounted missiles in battroid mode).

With the wings being on split mechanisms (instead of one central core body), the VF-11 probably takes the durability from this arrangement in the wrong direction.

The VF-17, by contrast, beefs the design up slightly, so I'd probably say it has the "ideal" wing orientation of the mecha we've gotten thus far.

This leads us back on topic, however, as I think the wings on the VF-25 are intentionally swept back in battroid mode to simulate angel/fairy type wings. The wings on the 27 (like the SV-51) lend themselves to a more bat-like or gargoyle-like appearance. While they're fundamentally the same piece of equipment, they have radically different visual associations that tend to accentuate the character piloting them.

If we also compare the swing bars of the 25 to the similar upper-chest mechanism of the YF-19, I'd say that, proportionally, the VF-25 has a sturdier core body setup because there's more meat between the flanks of the robot and where the pilot is located. For the 19 (or any valkyrie, really) to have a more robust waistline than the 25, the cockpit would have to be much thicker width, which wouldn't lend itself well to a high-performance aerodynamic design.

[Cent]

What do you expect an airplane folded in half to look like?

Hah, that thing would give 0 hip posability. Kinda makes you think about how good of a job the toy makers did.

[mpchi]

The newer CG valks tend to be a tad skinny like the SV-51, VF-25, VF-27....etc. But they don't necessary look bad or insect-like to me, with some look better than the others. Just different, and are all welcome additional variations in my book.

[anime52k8]

What do you expect an airplane folded in half to look like?

so is that a hase kit transformed?

[BlueMax]

Adding on to the "noisy" design argument, there have been reports regarding the DX toys' markings being ommitted, painted wrongly or even in reversed order.... just seems to be that the design and paint scheme is a tad over, such that the toy maker and even ourselves would not catch on such errors that easily...

[anime52k8]

Adding on to the "noisy" design argument, there have been reports regarding the DX toys' markings being ommitted, painted wrongly or even in reversed order.... just seems to be that the design and paint scheme is a tad over, such that the toy maker and even ourselves would not catch on such errors that easily...

no, the missing markings are an example of how Bandai's production of the DX is shoddy as a result of Bandai not giving a crap, not that they're somehow missing design elements because it's "too noisy to notice."

Bandai doesn't care about macross

[BlueMax]

Agree on the shoddy portion on Bandai, but loads of us who are diehard fans would also be hardpressed to notice these errors! lol...

Anyway, not to say i dislike the later VF designs, just that comparatively, i prefer the earlier designs.