A case for cutting Alto

[Alex]

I don't know how popular the character is with other people but watching MacF........you really could cut out Alto. He contributes very little to the overall story.

It's almost as if Gamlin were the main character of the show. He's reactionary. The most interesting triangle would have been Ranka-Ozma-Brera with the brotherly rivalry between them.

In most cases, Alto doesn't actaully affect the story. In both the Hydra attack and rescue from Global for example, it's Brera that does the rescuing. When ranka discovers that Ozma has secretly been working for the SMS, it's Alto that has the confrontation with Ozma. Pretty much because he has nothing else to do but constantly bemoan that he's "different!"

Or am I just cuh-ray-zee?

Edited April 2, 2009 by Alex

[Keith]

First you rag on Alto, then you attack Gamliln, them's fightin' words back where I come from!

[Alex]

First you rag on Alto, then you attack Gamliln, them's fightin' words back where I come from!

Rag on Alto? Only if it's soaked in Chloroform. Attack Gamlin? Only coz he's stolen Wolverine's hair-do

I actually like Gamlin. Just not so keen on Alto.

[dreamweaver13]

I remember a brief discussion on Alto's contributions to the human-vajra war, on whether or not they were significant enough.

found it: Alto Saotome - War hero?

Of course, this was limited to the significance of his actions on the general plot of MF. Therefore, if you're not digging Alto because of character development, that would be a different matter altogether.

[Alex]

I remember a brief discussion on Alto's contributions to the human-vajra war, on whether or not they were significant enough.

found it: Alto Saotome - War hero?

Of course, this was limited to the significance of his actions on the general plot of MF. Therefore, if you're not digging Alto because of character development, that would be a different matter altogether.

Hm. It's similar to what i'm saying here. I see Alto as a character that was shoe-horned into the story in order to appeal to a certain demographic or for whatever reason.

The point in the other thread for example, that Alto's paper plane inspires Ranka to sing. Yeah, so? It would have been much better if that inspiration would have come from say, Ozma. You could easily edit that out nad have Ranka simply summing up the courage by herself, making her a stronger character.

Watching some Frontier recently. I think you actually COULD edit Alto out and preserve a strong plot-line.

[VFTF1]

It would have been much better if that inspiration would have come from say, Ozma

Yeah, and it would have also been much better if Grace weren't evil. You could have edited that out and just made her a mild mannered music manager. And for that matter, you could have focused the story on Luca and Nanase's budding love interested relationship...

I dunno - I mean, how could Ozma be an inspiration to Ranka if part of his character template was over-protectiveness of his little adopted sister/daughter? Ozma didn't have the confidence in Ranka to inspire her to sing. And his love was so protective that she wasn't about to think "hey I know - I'll show nichan how much I love him by singing my heart out" - their relationship dynamic was the typical "Oh daughter I'm going to wall you in to protect you vs. oh father I must secretly dream my dreams because I am too shy to attempt them in reality for fear of shaming you."

Alto didn't directly inspire Ranka. He didn't say "hey Ranka - you're a great singer - I believe in you."

He inspired her by showing her that people exsit who pursue their dreams no matter what others say.

Also, she felt romantically drawn to him and was no doubt "inspired" by female jealousy and rivalry with Sheryl (just as much, if not more so, than by Sheryl as a singer).

Finally - remember Michael's tough love? Ultimately it was Michael who pointed out that Ranka should just shut up about "wanting to sing" and start singing.

I think taking Alto out of this equation would ruin the story.

Besides - Alto is an interesting character all by himself; what with his family background, the conflict with his father, his reaction to war, his emotional bond with the girls.

I don't know why people are so down on him?

I'm not saying he's the most amazing character in the universe. Macross Frontier certainly wasn't as character-centered as, say NGE. Macross Frontier had a big cast and each cast member was allowed to shine at certain points more than others.

The series was more of a space opera insofar as there wasn't really a "main" character or a very small group of main characters.

But I liked it that way.

Pete

[anime52k8]

The most interesting triangle would have been Ranka-Ozma-Brera...

Sigmund Freud thinks that as a child you were sexually aroused by your sister and harbor strong jealous feelings towards your fathers penis.

(I'm such an awful person )

[Killer Robot]

Taking Alto out would also mean reducing Sheryl to a bit part or a simple victim. (I know there's another thread already saying how she'd be better off that way, but that's another story.) While she did some inspiration/encouragement for Ranka herself, it was Alto who provided her with her first peer: someone her own age treating her neither with starstruck awe or professional politeness and intruiging her into finding some sort of normal life outside the spotlight. Past that, without Alto the series just doesn't have anyone who first and foremost loves to fly, and that feels strange in a Macross series especially that's trying to evoke the original. There are no shortage of aces, but even for Ozma piloting in itself feels like his (devoted)career rather than his dream, as it is to the Altos and Hikarus and Isamus of the franchise. Devoted protector, yes, but no one's seriously going to sing about how hard it is to get his mind out of the sky.

VFTF1 really has this one, I think. You could have made a Macross Frontier series without Alto, but it would have been a far different one. Alto wasn't my favorite character. I didn't really think Hikaru was all that captivating a protagonist either. For that matter, I have more gripes about Basara than the other two put together. But saying they weren't the characters I cared most about is a far cry from saying they could just be left out of the series and other people could be shuffled around to fit their parts.

[edwin3060]

You can't take out the most popular male character and the third most popular female character at the same time!

[REbirth]

Alto himself hangs up with Sheryl, which is the most developed character in the show, more than anyone, even Ranka.

He's also the one who cares for Sheryl the most ...in like every situations (he saved Sheryl in her own stage, in Galia IV, helped her stand up when she got AID..I mean Vajra disease, and in the last episodes...).

So yeah, IMO, if you cut out Alto, Sheryl is out too. And the result love triangle (Ozma-Ranka-Brera) just seems damn weird to me, I mean come on, they are brother-sisters and Ozma himself already have Cathy, don't you know?

I personally think Brera is the one who gets shoe-horned in, not Alto, if you cut him out, you won't miss anything, they could replace him with another Grace clone.

Edited April 2, 2009 by REbirth

[VFTF1]

Well - maybe he meant like a Platonic love triangle?

But we already have that in Macross Frontier:

Bobby-Ozma-Alto.

Nobody noticed?

Pete

[REbirth]

Bobby-Ozma-Alto.

Awesome, this is do-able.

Because Ozma is a man, Bobby is a woman and Alto is a hermaphrodite lol

Proof? Check the character poll!!!

[Bri]

Even a reactionary character can contribute to a story as the lead. Look at Hikaru in SDFM, he was not mister initiative either. Arguably the most important characters in SDFM are Global and Breetai whose decisions shape the future of Macross.

As for Alto's character: don't like him one bit. I have a dislike for temperamental, rude characters so would have prefered a different male lead, but his role is important. Shame his crappy personality hurts the love triangle as I kind of pity the girl who wins.

Hmm would this be inverted shipping?

[Mr March]

I think people generally complain about the archetypal boy-becomes-hero main character unless they are a boy themselves, which is pretty much the demographic for which these shows are made. So the Hikaru's and Alto's and Luke Skywalker's of the fictional world are almost always strongly criticized

[Roy Focker]

I see your point.

The true main characters are Ranka & Sherly. Alto as important as any other named but secondary character. They're only there to give reason for Ranka & Sherly to do something. The so called love triange could have worked with a different existing secondary character.

[VFTF1]

The so called love triange could have worked with a different existing secondary character

This is the part where I direct your attention to episode 13, where at 2 minutes 26 seconds we notice (shock) Sheryl making out with Ozma in the background.

She was totally sleeping around on Alto all this time!

Pete

[anime52k8]

what they should have done was either leave out alto or make him a secondary character, and make the show all about Michael and how much of a pimp he is.

Edited April 2, 2009 by anime52k8

[Dio]

I think people generally complain about the archetypal boy-becomes-hero main character unless they are a boy themselves, which is pretty much the demographic for which these shows are made. So the Hikaru's and Alto's and Luke Skywalker's of the fictional world are almost always strongly criticized

Nailed it on the head - you have to have a character for the audience to relate to, and a generic, quasi-defined "everyman" is the one that most will be expected to gravitate to. It's what makes you feel like you're part of the action, because if the character is defined too well, you're going to be excluded by the things that are different.

Gloval was mentioned above - how many of us here fantasized at one point about being behind the helm of the SDF-1? Probably fewer than those who wanted to be in the seat of an armored VF-1J like the more reactive Hikaru.

I mentioned this a long time ago, but Alto is designed to appeal to the adolescent male. Sure, not many adolescent males do Kabuki, but that's more of a means to emasculate the character and portray him as at odds with his stuffy parent figure (something adolescent boys probably can relate to). He's got women of all persuasions fighting over him, gets to fly a cool plane, has to negotiate with his friends whose eccentricities can irk him from time to time... aside from the scene he participates in (futuristic space combat), how is he really any different from say, Sam Witwicky in the 2007 Transformers movie?

Marketing, pure and simple.

Though this does make me feel good that I was more of a Michel fan... I suppose I'm more like him than I am Alto

[Killer Robot]

I see your point.

The true main characters are Ranka & Sherly. Alto as important as any other named but secondary character. They're only there to give reason for Ranka & Sherly to do something. The so called love triange could have worked with a different existing secondary character.

That's just what I mean: it couldn't have worked with anyone else. No one else had the right personality to spark changes in Ranka and Sheryl's lives, and giving them those traits just would have meant turning someone else into Alto.

[Bri]

Problem is that Macross Frontier is not aimed at an adolecent audience at all. Given the OVA nature of the series and time of broadcast, it's aimed at the main otaku audience of 18 to 30.

Altos conflict with his father is not so much a teenager versus parent figure, but more a conflict about a mans future. Can Alto pursue his dream of flying regardless of the cost to him and others or should he conform to society and join the (family) bussines. Very much a hot issue for the 20-somethings that make up the fanbase, which does make the situation Alto is in recognisable for the viewer.

However he is not a generic blank slate nor a boy turning hero, he was never a boy to begin with. My beef with Alto is that he has a set of character traits I dislike in people in general i.e. quick to anger and rude.

[Mr March]

I don't see Frontier that way at all. I know people try to cite the broadcast hour as some sort of evidence for an older market for Frontier, but the subject matter of Frontier speaks for itself. The Macross Plus OVA and Macross Zero OVA clearly had a more niche, possibly older demographic in mind. But Macross 7 and Macross Frontier? Those appear solidly aimed at a young audience to my eyes.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mr March

[VFTF1]

I personally think that - from a business and marketing point of view - anime and anime related merchandise, kind of like westerns in the old days and Sci-Fi in general cuts through the demographics and a good anime show will have something in it for all the various age groups.

Oh - and the "age groups" will also be mixed; nominally young people will also have a mature streak and nominally older folks will still have the kid in them.

Thus Bri's explanation is plausable and makes sense; but it's not exclussive of others.

Pete

[Bri]

The nature of the anime market makes it that the time of broadcast tells a lot about the targeted audience. I’ll go slightly OT to elaborate:

From what I have been able to find is that the anime market has changed quite a bit since the mid-nineties. A tightening of censorship back then by the networks resulted in removing pretty much anything suggestive from prime time anime. The series that remained on daytime slots abide by the regulations. They are either family oriented series like Sazae-san or aimed at children like Pokemon and One-piece.

The networks are far less strict in terms of content for the late hours and late night anime got off the ground around 1997. These timeslots don’t have much advertising and the sponsors of anime have to pay for these shows to be shown. The only way these shows can be profitable is by selling DVD’s and merchandise. These DVDs are sold in small volumes, for example the sale of 5,000 units is considered to be a very successful title. Late night anime caters to the tastes of those who buy those DVDs. The prices for these DVDs are high, well out of reach for a teenage audience. I’m not saying young people don’t watch anime but they are not the ones that have to make a title profitable. Mainly people with loads of disposable income and free time like university students and young professionals that still live at home are the target audience. Off course their age does not exclude them of having juvenile preferences.

Oddly anime is the one medium where cute high school girls are most likely to be associated with an adult male audience.

Not claiming I know much about Japanese culture or habits but I am interested in the way the anime market works. Call it a professional deformation.

.

In regard to Macross: series like SDFM and M7 were certainly targeted at a younger audience. Ova’s like Macross II and Macross Plus are from the early nineties and predate both DVD and the rise of late night anime. Most likely those Ovas tried to capture an audience as wide as possible. Macross Zero and Macross Frontier are typical late night products.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Bri

[Freiflug88]

There could have an interesting story without Alto, it just wouldn't be the typical Macross storyline. Where Macross really diverges from Gundam and Robotech is that the love battle is really the center of attention, not the space war for humanity's survival. The main charater is always the average dude weighted by personal issues, and not the unstoppable ace who singlehandly saves the day. In every single Macross the hero is the winner of love, not the battlefield. Of course Alto will always get a beaten down by Brera and Ozma cause a 17 year old flight student would never stand a chance against a cyborg immune to high Gs or an ace squad leader, but Alto's triumph is with his relationship with Sheryl. I don't know about you guys, but I would rather be the loner who seduces the idol then the cyborg with no hope of finding love or the guy whose sole source of masculinity is protecting a pair of women who can take care of themselves.

[Mr March]

Not claiming I know much about Japanese culture or habits but I am interested in the way the anime market works. Call it a professional deformation.

I understand where you're coming from, but you don't have to be a Japanese culture expert to objectively understand the audience for which anime is made.

By and large, most anime is of the same intellectual level as any Pixar film or the average comic book. These are not products with deep narratives, strongly conceptualized subtexts and provocative subject matter working on many sophisticated levels. Naturally, there are exceptions to every rule; your Watchmen's, your Dark Knight Return's, your Akira's and Ghost in the Shell's. However, those products are by far the minority. Digressing, we all know that most of this material is not made for adults even if adults happen to be the majority consumer. The Incredibles may be a sophisticated Pixar film, but it's still made for children and is still a children's story by any intellectual benchmark. Macross Frontier is the same.

[miriya]

Taking out alto is taking out oneself.

[Ghost Train]

I think this thread should have been "A case for making Alto female, and Sheryl a trap male "

[VFTF1]

A case for making Alto female, and Sheryl a trap male

Sheryl always gave of she-male vibes.

The only really womanly girl in the whole show was Cathy. She actually worried about wrinkles, was too weak to be with a man like Ozma, and then was womanly enough to fall right back into his arms.

Oh - and she was there when the blow out fire sales took place befor the dimmensional jump and colony wide blackout.

A TRUE woman.

Pete

[Ghost Train]

Sheryl always gave of she-male vibes.

The only really womanly girl in the whole show was Cathy. She actually worried about wrinkles, was too weak to be with a man like Ozma, and then was womanly enough to fall right back into his arms.

Oh - and she was there when the blow out fire sales took place befor the dimmensional jump and colony wide blackout.

A TRUE woman.

Pete

I like Cathy too... she has a curvy hourglass figure, a real woman.

[Bri]

By and large, most anime is of the same intellectual level as any Pixar film or the average comic book. These are not products with deep narratives, strongly conceptualized subtexts and provocative subject matter working on many sophisticated levels. Naturally, there are exceptions to every rule; your Watchmen's, your Dark Knight Return's, your Akira's and Ghost in the Shell's. However, those products are by far the minority. Digressing, we all know that most of this material is not made for adults even if adults happen to be the majority consumer. The Incredibles may be a sophisticated Pixar film, but it's still made for children and is still a children's story by any intellectual benchmark. Macross Frontier is the same.

One fundamental difference between Pixar movies and late night anime is that the first aims for a mainstream audience while the latter targets a niche market.

The products that are aimed at a mainstream audience have to conform to far more established rules and conventions. The more people you try to please, the more difficult it becomes to make something distinct and interesting. The chance to find a great movie or series is more likely with independent or non-mainstream producers. This goes for movies, books, music and television. Anime has an easier time to please its audiences as it is smaller and more homogeneous. Pixar is the best at what it does, so it's not to surprising that they can make movies that are as good, if not better then the average anime. However Pixar won't make anything of the level of say Rahxephon, Ghost in the Shell or Neon Genesis even if they could, as caters to much to the taste of the limited few.

Take for example DC comics. Most of their titles are mainstream altough occasionally a title like Batman escapes mediocrity, the vast majority is run of the mill superhero stuff. However the same publisher has a separate non-mainstream division: Vertigo. They have been creating thought provoking series regularly like Sandman, 100 Bullets, Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta. Vertigo allows more artistic freedom and aims for a more select public and can therefore adapt more easily to the particular tastes of said audience. Same company, different products.

The point I am trying to make is that Pixar makes a children’s movie that also needs to appeal to the rest of the family, while Frontier is a series aimed at adults that contains many campy, childish elements which are desired by the current (mostly adult) anime audiences in Japan. The reason why this audience wants those elements is a different discussion entirely.

[Gubaba]

One fundamental difference between Pixar movies and late night anime is that the first aims for a mainstream audience while the latter targets a niche market.

The products that are aimed at a mainstream audience have to conform to far more established rules and conventions. The more people you try to please, the more difficult it becomes to make something distinct and interesting. The chance to find a great movie or series is more likely with independent or non-mainstream producers. This goes for movies, books, music and television. Anime has an easier time to please its audiences as it is smaller and more homogeneous. Pixar is the best at what it does, so it's not to surprising that they can make movies that are as good, if not better then the average anime. However Pixar won't make anything of the level of say Rahxephon, Ghost in the Shell or Neon Genesis even if they could, as caters to much to the taste of the limited few.

Take for example DC comics. Most of their titles are mainstream altough occasionally a title like Batman escapes mediocrity, the vast majority is run of the mill superhero stuff. However the same publisher has a separate non-mainstream division: Vertigo. They have been creating thought provoking series regularly like Sandman, 100 Bullets, Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta. Vertigo allows more artistic freedom and aims for a more select public and can therefore adapt more easily to the particular tastes of said audience. Same company, different products.

The point I am trying to make is that Pixar makes a children’s movie that also needs to appeal to the rest of the family, while Frontier is a series aimed at adults that contains many campy, childish elements which are desired by the current (mostly adult) anime audiences in Japan. The reason why this audience wants those elements is a different discussion entirely.

Respectfully, I think you're missing March's point: that most anime is of the same intellectual level of Pixar film, not that they're aimed at the same audience. Yes, there are subtle touches, innovative filmmaking and storytelling work on occasion, but most anime is something that any smart ten-year-old could follow (even the ones no ten-year-old should ever be allowed to watch).

Most anime (every Macross series included) is sophisticated for a cartoon, but not much more. Most of the stories are relatively simple, most of the characters are not fully rounded, and they can usually be watched and comprehended by anyone, regardless of what frames of reference you have. Yes, sometimes an anime can be surprisingly clever or deep, but that's the exception.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "A mature anime is like a dog's walking on its hind legs. It is not done well; but you're surprised to find it done at all."

All that said, I see nothing wrong with any of us enjoying an anime. I loved Wall-E, too, although I wasn't its target audience. But I doubt there's a six-year-old who would enjoy, say, La Dolce Vita, which is probably my favorite film. Variety's a good thing, right?

[Killer Robot]

Most anime (every Macross series included) is sophisticated for a cartoon, but not much more. Most of the stories are relatively simple, most of the characters are not fully rounded, and they can usually be watched and comprehended by anyone, regardless of what frames of reference you have. Yes, sometimes an anime can be surprisingly clever or deep, but that's the exception.

That's a big thing there. As Western anime fandom first got established one of the most important things to convince people of was that anime was something more sophisticated and varied than what people would think of if you said "Japanese cartoons." Especially before the modern crop of Western animation that was more than simple kids' shows really developed some roots. Sometimes the convincing went too far, and you have fans that won't admit that a lot of anime is best described as "Japanese cartoons" and that even among what is something more, seriously deep and complex storytelling is an exception rather than the rule. Serious portrayals or adult themes, sometimes yes; but in the way of action, horror, soap opera, Western satire animation, etc. Even anime clearly not aimed at kids is most similar to Western forms which are generally and justifiably viewed as lighter and less sophisticated entertainment.

[Gubaba]

That's a big thing there. As Western anime fandom first got established one of the most important things to convince people of was that anime was something more sophisticated and varied than what people would think of if you said "Japanese cartoons." Especially before the modern crop of Western animation that was more than simple kids' shows really developed some roots. Sometimes the convincing went too far, and you have fans that won't admit that a lot of anime is best described as "Japanese cartoons" and that even among what is something more, seriously deep and complex storytelling is an exception rather than the rule. Serious portrayals or adult themes, sometimes yes; but in the way of action, horror, soap opera, Western satire animation, etc. Even anime clearly not aimed at kids is most similar to Western forms which are generally and justifiably viewed as lighter and less sophisticated entertainment.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think a lot of the strenuous arguing for anime's depth back in the day was caused by our inability to get anything subbed or dubbed. Watching stuff raw (as we had to back then) creates a sense that there is more going on than we can know, so that even something like "Hokuto no Ken" could seem somehow philosophical. We (or at least, I) added in what we (I) thought the characters should be saying, which often was more interesting than what they were ACTUALLY saying.

You still see that sometimes, where someone will have a page of text and say, "Please translate this! I'm sure it's very important!" only to find that there's nothing terribly important on it.

As for anime often belonging to "lesser" genres, I think that's part of the nature of the medium. If the Japanese film industry had had the money to make live-action extravaganzas in the '70s and '80s, we wouldn't have seen such an explosion in anime. The point of cartoons is to show things that can't be portrayed in live-action. Or sometimes in VERY rare occasions (like "I Can Hear the Sea" or "Only Yesterday"), making the movie animated adds a charm that might otherwise be missing. But generally, making an animated movie means having an almost limitless special effects budget, and who WOULDN'T want to exploit that?

[Bri]

Respectfully, I think you're missing March's point: that most anime is of the same intellectual level of Pixar film, not that they're aimed at the same audience. Yes, there are subtle touches, innovative filmmaking and storytelling work on occasion, but most anime is something that any smart ten-year-old could follow (even the ones no ten-year-old should ever be allowed to watch).

Most anime (every Macross series included) is sophisticated for a cartoon, but not much more. Most of the stories are relatively simple, most of the characters are not fully rounded, and they can usually be watched and comprehended by anyone, regardless of what frames of reference you have. Yes, sometimes an anime can be surprisingly clever or deep, but that's the exception.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "A mature anime is like a dog's walking on its hind legs. It is not done well; but you're surprised to find it done at all."

All that said, I see nothing wrong with any of us enjoying an anime. I loved Wall-E, too, although I wasn't its target audience. But I doubt there's a six-year-old who would enjoy, say, La Dolce Vita, which is probably my favorite film. Variety's a good thing, right?

I may have missed the point, perceptions can differ.

To quote W.H. Auden: "The poetry he made was simple and easy to understand", therefore it must be for children?

Macross Frontier can off course be enjoyed by children but that does not make it a child product. Which is what the discussion centered around as March claims macross Frontier is made for childeren. There is enough evidence imo to show that it was made for adults not kids even if the show has childish elements. To put it more crudely, a Mickey Mouse Dildo may be a toy but it's not for kids.

Also La Dolce Vita can hardly be called mainstream. I'm quite sure if you take a random sample of the population that they will enjoy my Big Fat Greek Wedding over Fellini's work (which probably says more about the mental state of the population then the quality of these works). It just furthers my point that intended audiences often are more restrictive of the intellectual magnitude of series instead of its creator. Sure many anime are of the level of a Pixar movie, but that goes for most live action movies and television series as well. That does not change that Pixar makes movies for kids and most late night anime is aimed at an older audience. Don't blame the medium for the demand. I doubt many six-year-olds would enjoy an anime by Fellini if he ever had made one.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Bri

[Gubaba]

I may have missed the point, perceptions can differ.

To quote W.H. Auden: "The poetry he made was simple and easy to understand", therefore it must be for children?

Macross Frontier can off course be enjoyed by children but that does not make it a child product. Which is what the discussion centered around as March claims macross Frontier is made for childeren. There is enough evidence imo to show that it was made for adults not kids even if the show has childish elements. To put it more crudely, a Mickey Mouse Dildo may be a toy but it's not for kids.

Also La Dolce Vita can hardly be called mainstream. I'm quite sure if you take a random sample of the population that they will enjoy my Big Fat Greek Wedding over Fellini's work (which probably says more about the mental state of the population then the quality of these works). It just furthers my point that intended audiences often are more restrictive of the intellectual magnitude of series instead of its creator. Sure many anime are of the level of a Pixar movie, but that goes for most live action movies and television series as well. That does not change that Pixar makes movies for kids and most late night anime is aimed at an older audience. Don't blame the medium for the demand. I doubt many six-year-olds would enjoy an anime by Fellini if he ever had made one.

We've gone rather far afield from the topic, so suffice to say here that I think we're talking at cross-purposes. You, March, and I probably all have very different ideas of what a mature story is, but I think we can all agree than Frontier can be enjoyed by many people, regardless of age.

As for La Dolce Vita not being mainstream...I never said it was. It's just my example of a movie which can't be easily assimilated by all ages.

(Anyway, according to Wikipedia, the New York Times called it "one of the most widely seen and acclaimed European movies of the 1960s." "Widely seen," no genre trappings, just the story of a guy meeting famous people and going to parties...what could be more mainstream than that?)

Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion, maybe we should move it over to the Frontier Talkback thread.