Battletechnology

[Akilae]

I guess I'm the only one that thought "HQ, this is Alpha assault..." when I saw that trailer huh... it's basically an updated version of the MW2 intro... and that's a GOOD thing.

[taksraven]

Just noticed that the Mechwarrior 5 thread has been closed. Fair enough if it was due to the fact that this thread already exists, but maybe this one needs a more appropriate title??

Taksraven

[thegunny]

My biggest problem with the MW4 weapon slot system, was that it prevented some official variants, like a PPC carrying Bushwacker.

Interested to know what variant that was as it doesn't show up in any of the record sheets or TRO's I've got or HMP.

Some out of cockpit action such as anti-mech infantry A-la Ramage's squads from Grey Death Legion would be nice as would vehicles such as hovers & armour.

I'm glad it's in 1st person as I really hated the 3rd person games on (po)X-box.

[Greyryder]

I know that they were available in Mech Commander 2. I don't remember what variant letter they were given in the game. I assumed the were actual variants from Battletech. Guess I was wrong.

Still would have loved to have equipped a Bushwacker like that in MW4.

[thegunny]

I know that they were available in Mech Commander 2. I don't remember what variant letter they were given in the game. I assumed the were actual variants from Battletech. Guess I was wrong.

Still would have loved to have equipped a Bushwacker like that in MW4.

Thanks. MechCommander 2 didn't have variants as such apart from some of the personalised mechs that some of the characters had and some of the elite units you ran into from time to time. As long as you had the space and the heat sinks you could pretty much slap whatever you wanted on the mechs which isn't bad in a way but it's still nice to struggle with a traditional load out one and a while instead of having all the bells and whistles.

I used to love having all the mechs armed with Clan ERPPC's and firing them all at once at some poor unsuspecting light mech. 99% of the time it just turned into a hole in the ground instantly and if you crank up the sound, that crackling zap of 15+ PPCs was fantastic

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Rather than a subtitle, maybe if it was "The Mechwarrior".

Sounds kinda daft but it sounds different at least....

Mechwarrior Zero?

Mechwarrior Plus?

Mechwarrior Seven?

Do You Remember Mechwarrior?

Super Dimensional Mechwarrior?

Taksraven

Hmmm, amazing! No one has done it yet (this is MW after all...) so here goes....

Mechwarrior BOOMMMBAAAA!!!!

Edited July 13, 2009 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Einherjar]

In Mechwarrior 4 is there more to do besides instant action, online matches, and the campaign? The Mercenaries expansion sounds like it's more open-ended, but is there anything else?

[Mr March]

No, that's it.

[Greyryder]

There are some user made levels out there, for MW4. I know I've got one that's actually a small campaign, with three or four maps to it.

[big F]

The Mektek upgades are excellent they add in missions and some very nice large maps. The best pack actually adds in some of the Starlegue era mechs along with couple of Macross look alikes

[F-ZeroOne]

That recon probe and the view that you got from it reminded me of the little probes you could launch from your carrier in Carrier Command that would let you target your big missiles. Anybody else notice that or am I the only dinosaur here?

Taksraven

I didn't notice it at the time, but now that you mention it... so, want to go munch on some puny humans?

[Chet]

I'm guessing the Battletech folks cut a deal with Harmony Gold for the unseen mechs, and I wouldn't be surprised if the game never gets sold in Japan and is never ported to the PS3.

[theplasticwerks]

Just hope the game is more accurate to the date they show at the start than the intro clip is.

Atlas - C is a 3060 era mech and Warhammers or any other mech for that matter don't have recon probes.

I questioned the Atlas-C myself (the weapons config doesn't seem to match anyhow). I think it can be retconned into being a command 'mech (if the Atlas-C is unfeasible, the Atlas-K is definitely not doable in this period) with a redesignation when the K, C, and CM models rolled out.

I believe in the S&T interview it was said that the Kuritans would have taken down the satellites over Deshler on their way in, so the gropos are stuck with line-of-sight and whatever else they can get to help.

There's no reason 'Mechs can't carry various probes and things like that without needing to be mentioned in the TROs (many 'Mechs have toilets, but you don't see that accounted for in the numbers, do you?) as they simply supplement the existing targeting system - like Kai Allard-Liao's use of seismic sensors in BoK: Blood Legacy, there's no real advantage to an alternative targeting system that needs to be factored into the game aside from a houserule, and just because it's never appeared in a TRO doesn't mean it can't exist.

Another point of fluff vs game play would be the targeting of individual areas as suggested by the comments of why didn't they shoot them in the legs.

That's more of a player thing. In real life, when confronted by a shooter, it's probably in your better interests to prevent him from shooting again than rendering him immobile but still able to fire (remember that until MW3, you weren't dead until your torso was cored!).

Bit of a bummer it's X-Box exclusive . Let's hope they see reason and make it available for real PC's.

But it's not. XBox AND PC. In fact, Piranha would like to have support for both in multiplayer.

I'm guessing the Battletech folks cut a deal with Harmony Gold for the unseen mechs, and I wouldn't be surprised if the game never gets sold in Japan and is never ported to the PS3.

Yes indeed, but as far as the fandom knows, this currently only applies to the original artwork that will be published in the 25th Anniversary book. No one ever said Catalyst, et al could use the designs anywhere else - this means we still might not get the original minis back, or have the Unseen featured in games. In fact, as far as we know the licensing only went to Catalyst Game Labs - Smith&Tinker is its own entity, and the Warhammer and company have always existed in BattleTech even after the rights to the original art were lost, so there's no reason it can't be included in the game. Even if all we had was the Project Phoenix Warhammer, it could still be in the game without a problem.

The S&T/Piranha interview can be found here.

Edited July 16, 2009 by theplasticwerks

[Knight26]

SO, it has been a while since I played battletech, but watching that video, have they not heard of sensors or targetting computers? I mean an M1 Abrams can hit a moving target on the move with its main gun at top speed fairly regularly, at around a mile in range. Are you telling me that 1000 years in the future two giant mechs can't hit each other from less then 100 yards? Also, how come the Tomahawk exploded when killed, lighting off a nice nuclear explosion, but not the first mech? Also, wouldn't ejecting at that point be pretty pointless?

[F-ZeroOne]

SO, it has been a while since I played battletech, but watching that video, have they not heard of sensors or targetting computers? I mean an M1 Abrams can hit a moving target on the move with its main gun at top speed fairly regularly, at around a mile in range. Are you telling me that 1000 years in the future two giant mechs can't hit each other from less then 100 yards? Also, how come the Tomahawk exploded when killed, lighting off a nice nuclear explosion, but not the first mech? Also, wouldn't ejecting at that point be pretty pointless?

Part of the BattleTech canon is that there was a significant loss in technological skills which meant that much 'Mech combat took place at close quarters as, yes, no-one had advanced computer systems any more.

Yes, the fact that they can still operate giant robots in the first place is inconsistent reasoning and many of the novels featured laser range-finders or the like...

The real reason is to do with in-game scale; IIRC a typical BattleTech game-hex was 30 metres square and if realistic weapons ranges were used you would have needed a bowling alley just to account for short-range weapons. It is also, of course, the standard Mecha McGuffin to account for the use of giant robots over tanks etc...

BattlleMechs are powered by nuclear fusion engines; I don't actually recall engine explosions being part of the game (just 'Mecha shutdown if enough damage was taken) but its been a loooong time since I last played and I could be wrong. Maybe it just looked cool. You could set off some mightily hurtin' ammo magazine explosions though (and because I just know you're going to point this out, yes, they did later develop blow-away ammo sections to disperse the blast... )

As for the ejection - er, next time, check for wind direction?

Edited July 16, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[VF5SS]

The explosion rules were added in Level 2 play. Normally when a Battlemech is destroyed it just becomes scrap in the boardgame. Exploding 'Mechs are just one way of game developers keeping extra objects off the field after they've been eliminated.

[Lynx7725]

You can actually blame some of the novel authors for that. Improvised tactical nukes are nice and all in a story, but having them blow up right underneath you is a bit annoying.

(I was playing MW4, was testing out a Daishi config.. 30 SRMs to an Uller drone and it ended up sliding beneath me. Another 30 started a nuke fire right under the cockpit....)

[theplasticwerks]

SO, it has been a while since I played battletech, but watching that video, have they not heard of sensors or targetting computers? I mean an M1 Abrams can hit a moving target on the move with its main gun at top speed fairly regularly, at around a mile in range. Are you telling me that 1000 years in the future two giant mechs can't hit each other from less then 100 yards? Also, how come the Tomahawk exploded when killed, lighting off a nice nuclear explosion, but not the first mech? Also, wouldn't ejecting at that point be pretty pointless?

BattleTech combat is not at all like modern combat. The basic premise of BattleTech is "Feudalism...IN SPAAAACE!" - MechWarriors, although using modern equipment, are the mounted knights of the era, including the perks of titles, land, adulation, women, and hereditary "armor" ('Mechs), typically private citizens called into service by their Successor Lords, although there are regular militaries as well (which seems to be more the case in the latter years of the BT universe until the Dark Age). The universe was built for romantic giant robot cavalry charges, not orbital railgun potshots from the other side of the planet. Besides, which of those is more fun?

Also, giant-robot-physics aside, 'Mechs aren't really supposed to explode that spectacularly - RPG sources say the explosion should just be big enough to vaporize the torso and kill the pilot. But Rule of Cool always prevails.

[Dangard Ace]

Actually what the heck happened during the "Dark Age"? I read/owned all the BT novels up to when the Star League was reborn, Candace settled her feud with Romano, Victor was ComStar, Grey Death was destroyed and that's it. Didn't read the Mechwarrior books or the Dark Ages or anything afterwards.

[Syngyne]

SO, it has been a while since I played battletech, but watching that video, have they not heard of sensors or targetting computers? I mean an M1 Abrams can hit a moving target on the move with its main gun at top speed fairly regularly, at around a mile in range. Are you telling me that 1000 years in the future two giant mechs can't hit each other from less then 100 yards?

Fluff reasons aside, it's a gameplay consideration. You've got large, lumbering vehicles that fire lasers at each other. If you could lock weapons on, you'd never miss. How much fun would that be?

Also, how come the Tomahawk exploded when killed, lighting off a nice nuclear explosion, but not the first mech? Also, wouldn't ejecting at that point be pretty pointless?

Cool factor, mainly. Large blinding explosions are pretty to look at. Also, if you noticed, when the Warhammer died the pilot's HUD was flashing "CORE BREACH," hence the boom. The Jenner may have been put out of action without having its reactor pulped.

But yes, it is a little silly to have mushroom cloud come out of an exploding 'Mech, considering fusion plants shouldn't really be exploding anyway.

[Chowser]

Actually what the heck happened during the "Dark Age"? I read/owned all the BT novels up to when the Star League was reborn, Candace settled her feud with Romano, Victor was ComStar, Grey Death was destroyed and that's it. Didn't read the Mechwarrior books or the Dark Ages or anything afterwards.

Eventually, Word of Blake launched their Jihad and brought war to the IS. Devlin Stone ended up beating the Blakists and established the Republic of the Sphere. Basically using Terra as the center and expanding outwards. Stone got rid of most mechs and forced his rule on alot of people when establishing his Sphere. They had peace for awhile until some mysterious force took out alot of the HPGs launching everyone into the Dark Ages. Victor ends up getting assasinated (he was old anyway), and so far I haven't really read much of the dark ages novel to figure out what has been happening. Victor and Omi's son, Kitsune, is a Paladin of the Sphere. Victor and Isis' kids/grandkids help out. Kai Allard-Liao has been killed off. Katherine Steiner-Davion was given over to the Wolves (led by Vlad) during the end of the Fed civil war and she had her dna and Victor's dna combined into Alaric Wolf. Not sure what happened with Phelan and his Wolves. Yvonne and Tancred had a kid, Harrison, who was the First Prince of the Feds until his crazy son, Caleb killed him. I think Peter Steiner-Davion got dethroned by Adam Steiner, then put back on the throne, then something else happened. Don't remember who runs the Dracs or Mariks. I think Sun-Tzu's son runs the Caps now and he is crazy and ended up having a kid with his sister or something. The Wolves are now the Steel Wolves, assuming they merged with the Steel Vipers. The Ghost Bears are still Ghost Bears. I think the Nova Cats still part of the Dracs. I think the Jade Falcons are still around. No idea what has become of the Kell Hounds or Wolf's Dragoons.

that's about all I can remember off the top of my head.

I hope I got it right.

[Wanzerfan]

What the hell happened to the First Sommerset Strikers? I loved that old Battletech animated series. Too bad that the entire population of planet Sommerset was taken hostage by Clan Jade Falcon (the same clan that almost totally screwed over the Draconis Combine if I'm not mistaken).

[theplasticwerks]

What the hell happened to the First Sommerset Strikers? I loved that old Battletech animated series. Too bad that the entire population of planet Sommerset was taken hostage by Clan Jade Falcon (the same clan that almost totally screwed over the Draconis Combine if I'm not mistaken).

Some shorty named Victor stole the limelight. Adam Steiner was last seen on the throne of the Lyran Commonwealth.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Part of the BattleTech canon is that there was a significant loss in technological skills which meant that much 'Mech combat took place at close quarters as, yes, no-one had advanced computer systems any more.

Yes, the fact that they can still operate giant robots in the first place is inconsistent reasoning and many of the novels featured laser range-finders or the like...

Yeah, lets not bring in realism to BT. TOO many damn loopholes.

e.g. A 20-100 ton mech can hurt its armour just _falling down_ on its butt (thats like a 3-5 meter drop at most). You can calculate the approx. kinetic energy from a 20 ton mass falling 3 meters (or just the ramming damage to figure out rough values) and then you realise, hey this mech armour aint so HOT after all. I bet a late 20th century Tank regiment could take down a lance of mechs easy. Heck, I'd bet a flight of IL-2s from the 1943 VVS could take out a mech.

You have BT worlds with billions of citizens. And according to the fluff, the rough tech is in the 22-23rd century level. You'd think a billion citizen world would have no problems stopping a regiment of 108 mechs even if they had 1945 level tech.....

[treatment]

this thread needs more Warhammer goodness!

[wolfx]

Ferro Fibrous armor is apparently a ceramic-type compound that is quite hardy against current day ballistic weapons and missiles. Lasers do more damage but they melt the armour off slowly so its still quite effective against energy weapons. A modern day tank will just explode after a hit from a SLAS and their cannons will do minor damage to a mech. (lol MS Igloo 2 tank vs Zakus were pretty good fun to watch as a comparison)

I'm not sure how much damage you're talking about when the mech falls down but i don't think the armour gets damaged enough to have that part vulnerable to attacks. But perhaps the potential damage to the inside moving parts like the gyros and the endo-frame will be significant since its not damage taken from external weapons fire but from falling down.

Its just like how your legs can still get sprained when you fall down even if you're wearing protective medieval armour that protects you from arrows.

[thegunny]

Someone's confusing real world with game world.

You fall over you pay the price and one of the only ways to represent this is to take damage and as the armour is the first line of defence it takes a hit.

How else are you going to do it??? It's a game mechanic, nothing else. It never ceases to amaze me when people start referring to real world physics in games and anime. Leave it for the class room

[anime52k8]

Someone's confusing real world with game world.

You fall over you pay the price and one of the only ways to represent this is to take damage and as the armour is the first line of defence it takes a hit.

How else are you going to do it??? It's a game mechanic, nothing else. It never ceases to amaze me when people start referring to real world physics in games and anime. Leave it for the class room

um... you could keep track of damage to the frame and to the armor separately, then have impact damage (i.e. falling) do damage directly to the frame? I recall FPS's for the PS2 being able to pull that off.

[wolfx]

Someone's confusing real world with game world.

You fall over you pay the price and one of the only ways to represent this is to take damage and as the armour is the first line of defence it takes a hit.

How else are you going to do it??? It's a game mechanic, nothing else. It never ceases to amaze me when people start referring to real world physics in games and anime. Leave it for the class room

Just to be clear i never played the tabletop game but read the fluff and play the PC games. So i wasn't sure what the context of damage Retracting Head Ter Ter meant.

He mentioned battlemechs are not revevant in real world but i was just pointing out how different their armour and weaponry were and demonstrated how internal damage was possible without considerable damage to the amrour, at least in the fluff not the games.

[Syngyne]

He mentioned battlemechs are not revevant in real world but i was just pointing out how different their armour and weaponry were and demonstrated how internal damage was possible without considerable damage to the amrour, at least in the fluff not the games.

BattleMech armor is not armor, though. It is some sort of magic substance that evaporates into fairy dust as it's hit. It doesn't act like real armor should.

[thegunny]

um... you could keep track of damage to the frame and to the armor separately, then have impact damage (i.e. falling) do damage directly to the frame? I recall FPS's for the PS2 being able to pull that off.

um.... how does the frame get damaged if the armour doesn't???

[thegunny]

Just to be clear i never played the tabletop game but read the fluff and play the PC games. So i wasn't sure what the context of damage Retracting Head Ter Ter meant.

He mentioned battlemechs are not revevant in real world but i was just pointing out how different their armour and weaponry were and demonstrated how internal damage was possible without considerable damage to the amrour, at least in the fluff not the games.

My response wasn't aimed at you, sorry should have been clearer.

[taksraven]

this thread needs more Warhammer goodness!

I still say that a Macross OAV based around Destroid pilots would be a great idea. Could be done as a nice little side-story and could have the pilots whining about how popular the Valk pilots are. Sure, it would probably have to be different to the traditional Macross formula but whats wrong with that?

Taksraven

[anime52k8]

um.... how does the frame get damaged if the armour doesn't???

ok, I'll break it down for you.

If a mech were to jump off the roof of a ten story building and land feet first, in the real world it wouldn't do much damage to the armor because it didn't land on the armor. but it would jack up the joints and structure of the legs.

Now if the mech trips and falls on it's ass, it would probably bang up the armor that it lands on, but could still do damage to structures under the armor. so it would do damage to both.

At no point did I ever say that falling wouldn't do damage to the armor. I was refuting your claim that there was no way to model fall damage realistically in a game, and that the only way to model fall damage would be to apply it to the armor as if it were the same as getting shot.

[wolfx]

It will prolly damage the endo-steel frame as well with minimal damage to the ferro-fibrous armour due to the impact caused by the fall.