Raise your hand

[dreamweaver13]

You can disagree with me about Frontier all you want. But badmouth KOR, and we'll have words. Stern, stern, words.

haha. relax, i like KOR, and I didn't mean it as an insult. sorry if it came out that way. it's just not something I imagine in a macross series.

[Killer Robot]

For me Macross has always been less about the battles and more about the aftermath. Macross F's ending couldn't be arsed to care about it.

I can totally understand your point that Macross would have been far lesser without the coda. But don't single out Frontier's lack either. "End the last battle then run credits" has been the way of about every Macross project since SDFM, so it's hardly a unique flaw. Unless you're saying you hate all the sequels, and that's fair enough.

I agree that Macross F needed more space to tell its story. Just if it was me I would have added at least an episode's worth of material to the last two, and a few more to that episode 18-23 space where things were very busy and compressed. A coda wouldn't have been bad, but it wasn't make or break for me.

[bishopcruz]

I dunno, SDFM had its share of triangle related heartbreak, and it could efinitely go for the melorama. I did notice the similarities to the KOR triangle when i was watching Frontier though, Sheryl did remind me of Madoka a whole lot, Ranka was a slightly more annoying Hikaru as well. I again would have little problem with a KOR style resolution mainly because 'I want to return to that day' was considered one of the all time great triangle resolutions in anime history for a long time. Hell, it probably still is.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Most of the time watching a series in bulk helps me to apreciate it more. I was more positive then most about series like Gundam Seed Destiny, Xam'd and Macross 7. These all had some pacing issues or were somewhat repatative. Being able to skip the credits or the recpa episode helps a lot instead of having to wait another week.

An exception was BSG season 3, it was very similar and dark so I got a bit saturated at some point and didn't apreciate it as much as if I would have seen it weekly by episode like season 4.

True. I watch a lot of my shows week by week, though there have been series I watched en masse. SDFM was actually one of them. Though I watched it more in bursts than one go. It does sort of affect one's perception of a series. I find that compared to the focused one episode or more a day run back in my early fandom, watching a series as it airs allows for A LOT more introspection into individual episodes and their highlighted plot points. This can be a blessing or a curse. I often found discussing the shows affected my POV at times. I was watching this and Code Geass R2 at the same time. Discussing R2 elsewhere often improved my perception of it. Discussing MF, while I did so relatively rarely, seemed more balanced between good or bad depending on the discussion. I know the debates over Sheryl and Ranka did horrors to my perception of either character.

Gaps in viewing can have other affects. It also allows for one to get involved in other shows and rob one of the undivided attention it would otherwise get. I know the Deculture episode went a little ways in defining attitudes due to it's three month gap. I used to put off viewing last episodes out of a sort of desire to never let it end. This usually backfired as by the time I'd watch it, I wasn't as emotionally vested in the plot as I would have been. Nadesico taught me that.

On the flip side, watching in one go can cheapen any cliffhanger tension. A great example would be BSG, which would often leave viewers months to contemplate character fates and where the story was going. Finding out that XX was going to be fine minutes after seeing him shot in the last episode I would imagine is far less antagonizing than the months long wait I endured. Sure, it falls out of mind, but in the end, you're comparing a months (or even years) long relationship with a character over a days long one. The benefit though is that you get to digest the plot in larger bites, and little things that might annoy you on its own might not when put in the context of a later episode. Instead of waiting weeks to understand way A ticks a certain way, you have the answer in minutes. This can be good or bad depending on the value of it. Spending weeks thinking Grace was a throwaway character sort of made her reveal more satisfying for instance. Not that it wouldn't be otherwise. Though the truth is that you can only watch it the first time once, and can only guess how you'd react the other way.

Frontier might have worked better for me in a closer nit go. While R2 benefitted from fretting over the obviously apparent death of a beloved character, delving deeper into Frontier shed as much light on it's strengths as it also did it's follys. Picking the triangle apart one episode at a time improved it, though dealing with those whose minds were made up from the get go didn't. So it all depends on what you do wiuth the time I suppose. Watching in one go tends to be a bit more personal than otherwise. Your mileage may very on just where the conjecture takes you. It might improve it (I know the discussions salvaged a lot of the dreck of R2) or it may confuse you more.

I liked Frontier, but it definitely seemed to lack a certain quality to me. I've never been so entusiastic and apathetic at the same time. It's a fun world to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there. I'm still not even certain who may favorite characters are. ;;

I still say that the Ep. 27 of SDFM felt much more resolved than the last episode of Frontier. Just rewatched it actually, and it doesn't really leave things hanging near as much as say the RT version (which for a myriad of reasons is still the version i immediately think of when I remember the ep in my head.)

Frontier has the following to resolve:

The LT

Grace and the Galaxy

Dealing with the Vajra on their planet.

The next steps with fold quartz.

Leon.

Alto and his family.

and quite a few more minor things.

We still have yet to see how exactly a colonization actually happens, and with the new abundance of fold quartz that the Frontier fleet now has in their possession, humanity is on the cusp of being able to do exploration on a level that the SDFM crew could only have dreamed of. There is more than enough meat for a second season.

Hell, even a coda episode would have helped immensely, Tylor's final couple of episodes are a great example of what I'm talking about, or hell the last episode of Tenchi Muyo! TV would work as well.

I've always been in the camp that the post 27 episodes were really what sealed Macross as a loved show of mine. So many series do end right there because that's the logical solution. Macross had the gall to show us how everything doesn't really wrap up that neatly. It made things seem a lot more real.

Though I've always understood the mechanics of theatrical storytelling. The end merely neeeds to resolved the problem, ie the story being told. It's up to the director to decide that. In Frontier, it seems to be that the problem is the Vajra and Frontiers journey. Those are told. As much as I love the extra story in Macross, I will admit that it could end at 27 and be satisfying. I just think the remainders add more depth. Yet I always find it amusing just how many people seem to have to have everything spelled out for them, and particularly the need for a happy conclusion no matter how unfitting (thankfully not the case here though tragedies rarely get their due from modern audiences ).

Could they have continued with Frontier? Sure. Is it necessary? Nope. In the right hand it could be nice, but what we have works on enough levels. For all the problems I had with the show, the ending was never one of them. Macross could've ended there, but by not doing so it had a lot more interesting things to tell. Not just wrapping up existing storylines. What could be covered in an extended Frontier that would truly add to it? That's debatable. Let's work with your list.

The Love Triangle - Maybe I'm alone here, but I thought it ended precisely as it should of - vague and platonic. Why? Because that's how it was to me throughout. Alto's position never seemed to romantically teeter one way or another. To have him declare love for either at the end would've felt premature. Besides, there are plenty of ways to interpret things. I've read plenty of cockamaimy stories about how he actually choose anyway based solely on screentime with side girls and body language. If people can get their ending through reading that deeply into possibly meaningful, possibly meaningless gestures, doers it really need to be sealed with a kiss? I can understand the wants of it, but in my opinion, it was never built up to it. Hopefully Kawamori leaves it in the movie, though I'm betting he won't due to public demand. If he does change it, hopefully he'll build it up better, and not have it feel like the vastly changed storyline it actually is. So the LT is concluded - "You are BOTH my wings".

grace and Galaxy - Grace wanted control of the network the vajra and their queen granted. Simple enough. She's dead as well, so there's not much left to work with. I'll admit that Galaxy's situation is much vaguer than need be. What was the point of GA? Was Grace representing them, or working beyond them, or just plain IS them. Was this Galaxy's plan, since the attack seems a lie, or did GA take over. Does knowing any of this change anything? Probably not. A manga side story would befit this one.

The Vajra - I don't really see how this one is unresolved. With Ranka AND Sheryl capable of communicating with them, what's the problem?

Fold Quartz - We know what it does, where it comes from, and how it fits in. Anything more can be told elsewhere.

Leon - The truth about him is known, do we need to see his subsequent trail and conviction? His story's over.

Alto and family - this might have room for development, but his father's last line suggests he might understand his son better than implied. I'd say it's resolved to the point of it's importances to the plot.

Basically, most of the dropped plotlines seem more fodder for new series or spinoffs, rather than essentials to the ending. There's enough material here to keep Macross Ace occupied for years. Just as long as the leave the love triangle alone. At least until the time when the shippings died down enough to have a non-fan biased conclusion without bloody murder if someone else were to "win". Though I'll never get why it anyway has to be about "who frakking?" It works so much better as a non-romantic relationship anyway.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[VFTF1]

any attempt to lengthen the love story between these three might end up either being too comedic or too melodramatic

Or wonderfully pornographic and camp

You'd basically have to turn the series into a Romantic Comedy with lots of domestic-based plots. Alto hoging the bathroom mirror, Alto taking the longest time to do hist hair, Sheryl gets her first wrinkles and does everything possible to discourage Ranka away from femininity in order to remain the hot girl of the house despite her age (women are evil creatures so they will canabilize one another out of vanity), Ranka getting teased all the time in school for her "lesbian parents" ...

I can't see any other way of extending it.

Anything else would be fated to go the way of Sentinels - when Prick and Obease-a consumated their love with a dorky marriage and then went on to get lost in a black hole.

I'm surprised this thread is six pages long. I love Frontier. I can see the faults in it - but not enough to raise my hands and say that it's somehow bad or not perfect.

Perfection has faults too.

Pete

[MisaForever]

I can't believe this thread is still growing. Most people love Macross Frontier, DEAL

[Noyhauser]

I'm surprised this thread is six pages long. I love Frontier. I can see the faults in it - but not enough to raise my hands and say that it's somehow bad or not perfect.

Perfection has faults too.

Pete

Given you think Gurren Laggan is the greatest anime of all time and your rabid fanboyism, its not surprising why you don't have the perspective to see why alot of people are fairly meh about Frontier. It recycles themes from prior shows while dumbing it down, while having some serious execution issues. It was well animated and had some good parts, but it doesn't live up to the hype. All in all it was an okay series, but not deserving of any great praise in my mind.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Noyhauser

[Seto Kaiba]

*raises hand*

I know I'm late to the party, but Macross Frontier didn't thrill me either. I don't hate it, but it's a long way from being my favorite. From the start, it felt like a return to form, like they had decided to go back to the formula that had made Macross great. The story was pretty good, not fabulous... the core cast was pretty boring, the mecha was a mix of old, uninteresting designs and "new" designs made by haphazardly combining features from previous ones.

For the above-stated reason, the main character mecha (VF-25 and VF-27) did not thrill me. It was nice to see some of the minor character mecha, like the VF-171EX and VB-6 get some love though.

The core cast was a bore most of the time... Alto only really felt likable after he and Sheryl got together, Sheryl turned out to be easily the most likable cast member, and Ranka was every bit as pointless and offensive to the eye, ear, and most other senses as Basara was. Ozma was pretty awesome, though he got so little screen time that it was hard to think anything but "recycled footage time" whenever he got hurt. Bobby was, oddly, hilarious and awesome at the same time, and the bridge bunny banter was at least amusing. Really, the show could've been made a lot better with the excision of a single character... Ranka Lee. She was largely unnecessary to the plot, her role could've been easily filled by Sheryl, and the love triangle could've been Alto, Sheryl, and Brera.

The Vajra need to win an award for all-time lamest Macross villain. You can't really relate to them in any way, because they're personality-less bugs. What made Macross's villains great was that you COULD relate to them, and they weren't unambiguously evil people... many of them were just soldiers doing their jobs, or just trying to survive another day, and were otherwise genuinely good people (see Vrlitwhai, Feff, Gigile, Sivil, etc). Without a personality or even a visible central intelligence, it's hard to really even consider the Vajra a threat until the very end, when Grace takes over the queen.

On the whole, I think Macross Frontier had the seeds of true greatness. Everything necessary to make the show awesome WAS there, but it was buried in annoying characterization, pointless lolicon, and unnecessary side stories. As such, instead of being great, it's only "pretty good". A hell of a lot better than 7 was, but not nearly as good as the original series, DYRL, or even II.

[VFTF1]

The Vajra need to win an award for all-time lamest Macross villain. You can't really relate to them in any way, because they're personality-less bugs. What made Macross's villains great was that you COULD relate to them, and they weren't unambiguously evil people... many of them were just soldiers doing their jobs, or just trying to survive another day, and were otherwise genuinely good people (see Vrlitwhai, Feff, Gigile, Sivil, etc). Without a personality or even a visible central intelligence, it's hard to really even consider the Vajra a threat until the very end, when Grace takes over the queen.

Well - on the face of it - yes, you're right.

But

Couldn't it be argued that this is what made the Vajra a more compelling enemy? The very fact that you "can't really relate to them in any way" - not even the simple way that Hikaru related to the first Zendradi he shot (he was shocked and horrified - because he had killed what appeared to be a large human). Killing a large bug doesn't really shock you that much - it just satisfies you "ah - there - bug is dead."

But this is the whole point - making the enemy so alien as to almost make it inconcievable that the power of song could work on them.

Then again - it worked on galactic whales.

And that's the point - that no matter what the differences between species, whereever there is communication between beings, it is possible to come together.

In this sense, the Vajra were a great enemy because they revealed how little we know about others.

Pete

[Nexx Stalker]

the love triangle could've been Alto, Sheryl, and Brera.

If Kawamori had the guts, the real love triangle would have been Bobby-Ozma-Cathy

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Really, the show could've been made a lot better with the excision of a single character... Ranka Lee. She was largely unnecessary to the plot, her role could've been easily filled by Sheryl, and the love triangle could've been Alto, Sheryl, and Brera.

Ouch. Perhaps so, with the right prodding, though she'd hardly be the same. In fact, the same could be said about Sheryl, and it would be easier since she actually had next to no actual impact on the war itself. Heck, they're very similar characters in terms of development arcs, so they could be interchanged (probably because they squeezed Sheryl into some of Ranka's screentime from what I've heard). If Ranka was largely unnecessary, Sheryl was outright fanservice if we're talking solely about service to the plot. Frontier has quite possibly the least character driven story I've ever seen. I think Wilder drove more plot simply by stealing the Quarter than any of the leads did in whole episodes. It's mostly one big ride thanks to conspiracy.

" I can't believe this thread is still growing. dry.gif Most people love Macross Frontier, DEAL smile.gif"

Reading this thread doesn't really imply a problem there. I don't have an issue with Frontier's popularity as long as everything Macross does become Frontier only. So far the only issue I've had there is that it felt like they warped the Launch Ceremony to tie into Frontier, particularly Sheryl and Ranka's unnecessary poster appearance. It's all marketing though. Though the truth is that usually only the latest, not just the greatest, get their due. It's pure marketability and recognition.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[MilSpex]

I can't believe this thread is still growing. Most people love Macross Frontier, DEAL

Not me.

I think I consider pretty much everything post Flashback 2012 non canon anyway tho.

Your avatar gives away what kind of goofy anime you like. Macross Frontier was goofy. No surprise you like it.

[bishopcruz]

Well - on the face of it - yes, you're right.

But

Couldn't it be argued that this is what made the Vajra a more compelling enemy? The very fact that you "can't really relate to them in any way" - not even the simple way that Hikaru related to the first Zendradi he shot (he was shocked and horrified - because he had killed what appeared to be a large human). Killing a large bug doesn't really shock you that much - it just satisfies you "ah - there - bug is dead."

The argument could be made I suppose. I just tend to think that the argument woul be wrong.

The mystery and strangeness of the Vajra worked relatively well at first, wondering who and what they were and how they were so powerful drove the plot. It's just that after a while they were just kinda there, and by the en of the series, they were actively boring.

But this is the whole point - making the enemy so alien as to almost make it inconcievable that the power of song could work on them.

Then again - it worked on galactic whales.

But again, they weren't compelling. What they ended up being was essentially a mix of the Zerg and the Borg, with the personality strengths of neither. There was never a 'face' that the viewer could end up identifying with.

The base concept of the Inbit from Mospeada was the same as the Vajra, very alien creatures who eventually turned out to not be as evil as we thought, but where they succeeded and the Vajra did not was in that the viewer had a connection with the Regis and the human like Inbit.

Hell, even in the Alien series of movies, where again you had bug-like creatures that are portrayed as a major threat to the human race, they are eventually given a face in a very compelling design for the queen. There was also the added personal component to them that was basically, for each one that existed, another life form would have to die.

Then of course there is the general implausibility of the Vajra in and of themselves. Now if there was a race of creatures that could bend space time in a way that makes distance completely irrelevant, AND they had the capability to constanty and for all intents and purposes instantly evolve so as to be able to eventually render all attacks on them useless, there is really no reason at all that they haven't spread EVERYWHERE in the galaxy. They have been around for hundreds of millions of years, with absolutely nothing to threaten them, and the ability to move at will and nest where they please? Even their small nests produce essentially millions of Vajra? Their expansion across the galaxy should have been geometric.

In other words, Earth would have been a Vajra hive long ago.

Had Grace and the Galaxy cyborgs been better fleshed out, with the Vajra being shown as tools earlier and in a more compelling manner, then maybe it could have worked better. If the Vajra's power levels had been reduced somewhat, especially the quick evolution thing, then they might have been less boring. As it stood, no matter what the humans did it was pretty certain that there was never any real hope of success, not even the remote one in that existed against the Zentradi.

And let's not even get into the ridiculousness of their motivation, or Grace's.

And that's the point - that no matter what the differences between species, whereever there is communication between beings, it is possible to come together.

In this sense, the Vajra were a great enemy because they revealed how little we know about others.

Pete

The Vajra if handled better had the potential to be good, if not great antagonists. By the halfway point of the series though it was clear that all that humanity needed to do was give the bugs a psychic space hug and everything would be all right.

Ouch. Perhaps so, with the right prodding, though she'd hardly be the same. In fact, the same could be said about Sheryl, and it would be easier since she actually had next to no actual impact on the war itself. Heck, they're very similar characters in terms of development arcs, so they could be interchanged (probably because they squeezed Sheryl into some of Ranka's screentime from what I've heard). If Ranka was largely unnecessary, Sheryl was outright fanservice if we're talking solely about service to the plot. Frontier has quite possibly the least character driven story I've ever seen. I think Wilder drove more plot simply by stealing the Quarter than any of the leads did in whole episodes. It's mostly one big ride thanks to conspiracy.

I dunno how similar the arcs and such were between the two. Two singers involved with Alto, one is on her way up, the other on her way down. It was an interesting contrast, but I have to say that Ranka's storyline and characterization were for the most part boring as hell, she ended up being better than I thought she would, there was a good long time I avoided the show because of how she was in the pilot episode. But she rarely was more than the ultra-cute, ever so earnest, not quite perfect, but her flaws are endearing sterotype. I know many characters in this show were created to fit a very specific type, but the best ones, Sheryl, Klan, Monster Girl (can't remember her name), and to a lesser extent, Alto and Michel ended up being interesting in spite of their cliched origins.

With Ranka we are constantly being told, pretty much from the first episodes that she is PIVOTAL in the story, but to many, there was never all that much reason to care. Her importance to the story never seemed to flow organically from the character. She was in many ways a Mary Sue, able to rise to huge levels of fame, in a universe where singing is held as the highest art and competition must be fierce mind you, without ever so much as a singing lesson. Hell, as metoric as Minmay's rise was, at least she had been working on it for much of her life. When she became popular it was because she had a can do attitude along with the talents she had been developing.

Ranka OTOH captured the notice of everyone @Formo, got a backup band to start playing along in seconds, knocked her Film debut out of the park, even though she never acted a day in her life, and became the songstress of hope in what, a few WEEKS? It strained suspension of disbelief, and in a show like Macross, that's saying something. She was essentially an author made Mary Sue.

Now as to whether she could have been cut? I wouldn't say that, the role she played needed to be filled, but the choices made as the series progressed kept her all too often in the cliche "perfect pure girl" category. VERY rarely we saw glimpses of actual potential and growth and those were often the result of the points in the plot that she directly affected.

Cut out some of the worst bits of her character, her ridiculous amnesia (having her happy demeanor hide actual inner pain), her lack of initiative, her ridiculous naivete (a little is fine, but REALLY) and stop throwing everything in her lap, and she suddenly becomes a more interesting character, and one that no one would ask be cut.

" I can't believe this thread is still growing. dry.gif Most people love Macross Frontier, DEAL smile.gif"

Reading this thread doesn't really imply a problem there. I don't have an issue with Frontier's popularity as long as everything Macross does become Frontier only. So far the only issue I've had there is that it felt like they warped the Launch Ceremony to tie into Frontier, particularly Sheryl and Ranka's unnecessary poster appearance. It's all marketing though. Though the truth is that usually only the latest, not just the greatest, get their due. It's pure marketability and recognition.

As I said before, there are parts of this show I love, its flaws however are too hard to ignore. The High School setting was a gigantic mistake, many of the characters were underdeveloped, the villains were weak, the ending lacked satisfaction in many areas, though it knocked it out of the park in others.

Still it was an above average series, one that I think was hurt more by its reliance on tired tropes than anything else.

[MisaForever]

Not me.

I think I consider pretty much everything post Flashback 2012 non canon anyway tho.

Your avatar gives away what kind of goofy anime you like. Macross Frontier was goofy. No surprise you like it.

Yes, comedy is great. Is your life nothing but seriousness? Laugh!!!

[Einherjar]

Um, maybe we're all over analyzing the series too much. I forgot a lot of the small details about the franchise before Frontier started, years since I saw a Macross title actually, but it was still okay.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Einherjar

[MilSpex]

Yes, comedy is great. Is your life nothing but seriousness? Laugh!!!

I was actually thinking you were more into "moe" and underage looking girls than comedy.

Edited April 4, 2009 by MilSpex

[Noyhauser]

The Vajra if handled better had the potential to be good, if not great antagonists. By the halfway point of the series though it was clear that all that humanity needed to do was give the bugs a psychic space hug and everything would be all right.

I agree with almost all of your post, but this line must be Quoted for truth.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Um, maybe we're all over analyzing the series too much. I forgot a lot of the small details about the franchise before Frontier started, years since I saw a Macross title actually, but it was still okay.

Oh anything can turn to garbage if you think about it too much. I know that the hard way. Forums especially can do it when one has to restate opinion in new ways and back them up. Before you know it, a quirky observation becomes a serious flaw just because you have to dissect it because someone misinterpreted it.

Though it all comes down to differing opinions.

[Killer Robot]

Ouch. Perhaps so, with the right prodding, though she'd hardly be the same. In fact, the same could be said about Sheryl, and it would be easier since she actually had next to no actual impact on the war itself. Heck, they're very similar characters in terms of development arcs, so they could be interchanged (probably because they squeezed Sheryl into some of Ranka's screentime from what I've heard). If Ranka was largely unnecessary, Sheryl was outright fanservice if we're talking solely about service to the plot. Frontier has quite possibly the least character driven story I've ever seen. I think Wilder drove more plot simply by stealing the Quarter than any of the leads did in whole episodes. It's mostly one big ride thanks to conspiracy.

I always got the opposite impression, that it was very character driven plot: just a character-driven plot against an external background. Frontier, much like original Macross, is fundamentally about the story of characters who are caught up in an ongoing war, rather than being the Great Heroes that personally decide the origins, progress, and endings of the war. There were long arguments whether Alto was really a war hero. There were the same about Hikaru: even where people decided one was and one wasn't it was a close sort of thing.

As for just replacing Sheryl? I suppose you could have done Ranka's ascent without Sheryl being there. Just the upcoming Miss Macross competition could have done it. But on the one hand, that would have made her even more a simple repeat of Minmay, and on the other hand, Sheryl really didn't have the same development arc. Ranka was a straight rise from middle class schoolgirl to big star, Minmay style. Sheryl started off as a celebrity in her prime, having been guided to stardom while thinking it was all her own fighting spirit that did it, then she fell, then she had to struggle for herself and prove her strength: not something that had been shown in a Macross story before. I wonder what she thought of Ranka being called a "Cinderella" when she was the one who had struggled up from the dirt, as far as she knew. Not to speak against Ranka here: I just don't think any of the three were expendable roles. They were very different people and were each different than anyone else in the cast,

and I think a plot without any one of them would have been a much different series.

[edwin3060]

Oh anything can turn to garbage if you think about it too much. I know that the hard way. Forums especially can do it when one has to restate opinion in new ways and back them up. Before you know it, a quirky observation becomes a serious flaw just because you have to dissect it because someone misinterpreted it.

Though it all comes down to differing opinions.

Well said

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Note that I'm not saying either character should be cut, nor would I want it (though Sheryl was supposedly meant to leave early on, and it can seem fairly obvious). I was merely rebutting the point made that Ranka was expendable. If she is, then so is Sheryl, if not more so.

As for character or plot driven, you are describing a plot driven story, which Frontier mostly is. Most of the development is characters reacting to circumstances, and not so much influencing them. It is indeed about how they are affected by the war. A more character driven story would be one where the story progresses mostly due to character actions. Code Geass is a recent example of a more character driven storyline. Note that I'm talking about the overall storyline of Frontier. The character storyline are naturally more character driven, though even they tend ton bow to the greater events surrounding them. It's a story within a story, and the argument is which one affects the other. The character story is set against the war story, and here the war story is very much in charge of dictating where the overall plot goes. Outside of Rank and Alto shooting things, the main characters had very little impact on the main storyline of Frontier vs Vajra. Even the original series, it was balenced more where the character drama often directly influnced the war. Just look at Max and Milia. Note that being plot driven is not a bad thing. Neither is. I just found that Frontier seemed to always focus more on developing things by nudging the plot than it did those involved, having it shape them rather than the reverse. I think you're confusing an argument on story development with one on focus. You're actually agreeing with what I'm trying to say. Your second sentence outright says "this is a story driven plot." as you say, the characters are affected by the events around them. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sheryl and Ranka's development arcs are very similar, they're just in reverse. I sort of noticed a mild comparison to Kiminozo. Haruka and Mitsuki sort of switched places in that. Haruka started shy and meek, and ended stong and self sufficient. Mitsuki appeared confident and independent, but turned out to be very insecure and codependent. The same is sort of true in Frontier. Ranka rose as Sheryl Fell, creating a more confident/stronger willed (in some ways) Ranka, and a more fragile/weaker willed (in some ways) Sheryl at least on the outside. Their development and destinations are different, but their growth is largely the same. Though I'm apparently one of the few that actually though Ranka developed. ;;;

[Killer Robot]

Hmm. I see what you mean, yes - focus is a good term. What I'm after with this is that the main plot of Frontier is about the characters: it takes place during a war they are all caught in, and they have roles that end up being central, but fundamentally it's a story that starts with how Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl cross paths, builds into the complexities of their relationship amidst the building conflict, and ends with the three finding a more stable position to develop from as they help guide the war to its final resolution. There's political intrigue and mecha action aplenty, but it's not misdirection when they push the love triangle as a central feature of the show. Even including the rest of the cast, while external events push the storyline the focus of what happens is consistently not about the fate of humanity/the fleet or the progress of the war but about the relationships and development of the characters. Contrast this with Macross 7, where it felt much more like the major characters were going out and being the war heroes in every conflict and the major conflict shaped around them, even though they themselves were little changed and interacted mostly on sitcom-like levels. Or even to the main plot of SDFM, which was heavily about character interaction and development but just as centrally was a plot-focused sci-fi story about first contact and the ultimate future of humanity in a way that Frontier wasn't and didn't really try to be, at least not in such a central way. In that sense Frontier has a lot more in common with Macross Plus or the last few episodes of SDFM, where there's a bad guy to defeat but really the important part is resolving things between the major characters.

As for Ranka developing, I think she certainly did. She started out as an outwardly ordinary girl with a lot of repressed trauma, she grew into a budding star, got overwhelmed and manipulated, then finally came through into being a more assured young adult. I think she grew less than Sheryl, or perhaps just had further to grow, but she definitely ended the series a much different person than she began it.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

All very true, from a certain point of view. Though I think when it comes to comparing it to the original, SDFM did a much, much better job of balancing character influence. Both shows can essentially be broken down as two struggles happening against each other. The balance between the inner and outer affecting one another was strong in Macross, rather weak in Frontier. Arguably it's most interesting when the characters afffect the story as much as it affects them. You're dead on with "Or even to the main plot of SDFM, which was heavily about character interaction and development but just as centrally was a plot-focused sci-fi story about first contact and the ultimate future of humanity in a way that Frontier wasn't and didn't really try to be, at least not in such a central way." Though I feel that Frontier was just as much about it's conspiracy and encounters as it was about three fast friends. So I'm merely saying that F was driven more by it's plot than it's characters, as the outer affected the inner by a very high margin. That is, that while the focus is on Alto and crew, what they're doing is pretty much at the will of Grace's plot for the Vajra. After all, even Alto was blinded by the lies up until the last episode.

Macross Plus, I think, is actually the most character driven of them all. The entire story of Plus would never have happened if not for the relationship between Guld, Isamu and Myung as it was Myung's pent up feelings that drove Sharon.

Nice to know you think so. Maybe I'm just pertuirbed by the number of bloggers that seem to think she just stagnated. I actually think Ranka was developed just as much, maybe more so than Sheryl. The difference though was that Ranka's was much more subtle and introverted (though not as much as Alto's), whereas Sheryl's is so in your face that it's obvious. Heck, you could name entire episode arcs after whatever was happening with Sheryl. Not to mention the reading into (or refusal to do so) by fans. It also didn't help that they outright pissed on Ranka's development in 24, having her become a mere puppet. It's no wonder people ignored any strides she'd made (not to mention the vilifying of her leaving Frontier, which I'll never understand).

[Einherjar]

Oh anything can turn to garbage if you think about it too much. I know that the hard way. Forums especially can do it when one has to restate opinion in new ways and back them up. Before you know it, a quirky observation becomes a serious flaw just because you have to dissect it because someone misinterpreted it.

Though it all comes down to differing opinions.

From personal experience online, thinking too much about a series can drive people literally insane, and this is from stuff seen in other fandoms besides Macross and Robotech. Not a position I want to be in or be remembered for in some situations.

Anyway, I'm not raising my hand for this one. It's flawed, but represents the series well.

[MisaForever]

I was actually thinking you were more into "moe" and underage looking girls than comedy.

Oh!! No no no, Miyuki is from Lucky Star and I just happen to find that gif cute. Trust me, I'm actually the opposite of what you're thinking.

[Bri]

Lucky Star is about as good as comedy can get.

[Killer Robot]

Nice to know you think so. Maybe I'm just pertuirbed by the number of bloggers that seem to think she just stagnated. I actually think Ranka was developed just as much, maybe more so than Sheryl. The difference though was that Ranka's was much more subtle and introverted (though not as much as Alto's), whereas Sheryl's is so in your face that it's obvious. Heck, you could name entire episode arcs after whatever was happening with Sheryl. Not to mention the reading into (or refusal to do so) by fans. It also didn't help that they outright pissed on Ranka's development in 24, having her become a mere puppet. It's no wonder people ignored any strides she'd made (not to mention the vilifying of her leaving Frontier, which I'll never understand).

I don't think Ranka ending up briefly a puppet was so bad in itself: a protagonist being briefly maneuvered or controlled even to that extent isn't that unusual in anime/comics/fantastic genres in general, and it was really only for a matter of a few minutes of screentime...which got magnified by the cliffhanger ending having people wait for the next week to see her be freed. Still, it probably wouldn't have really made such an impact if not for that vilifying her leaving Frontier. That I understand as people having gotten too caught up in the "Vajra as faceless villains" thing. Clearly it was meant for the characters at that point to strongly and understandably think that they were facing off in a simple battle of survival against a mindless and irreconcilably alien enemy. I think viewers easily got into thinking of this as the objective rather than subjective truth and that the only way the series could end was a (rather unMacrosslike) straight-up beating down of the bad guys. They saw the human villains' role as being just trying to take personal advantage of a war that couldn't really be solved peacefully, while not noticing or dismissing how Ranka had been seeing something more complex in the enemy rather than just being fed up with how she was feeling manipulated. The cues were subtle and easy not to read as a viewer, compared to SDFM and Mac7 strongly telegraphing the (especially in the former) "really the aliens are people we can connect with" and (especially in the latter) "and even if we can it would be wrong to just slaughter them all while there's maybe a better way."

Granted, when it turned out that her attempt to reconcile things was another trap of the villains that added more complication. Still, all I don't understand is people who saw to the end and had it all explained, but still see it as a simple betrayal of humanity to genuine monsters. It's like if fans were still angry at Max for marrying Milia: "I can't believe he'd do that! Shacking up with one of the same squadron that killed Roy! Traitor!"

[Gubaba]

I don't think Ranka ending up briefly a puppet was so bad in itself: a protagonist being briefly maneuvered or controlled even to that extent isn't that unusual in anime/comics/fantastic genres in general, and it was really only for a matter of a few minutes of screentime...which got magnified by the cliffhanger ending having people wait for the next week to see her be freed. Still, it probably wouldn't have really made such an impact if not for that vilifying her leaving Frontier. That I understand as people having gotten too caught up in the "Vajra as faceless villains" thing. Clearly it was meant for the characters at that point to strongly and understandably think that they were facing off in a simple battle of survival against a mindless and irreconcilably alien enemy. I think viewers easily got into thinking of this as the objective rather than subjective truth and that the only way the series could end was a (rather unMacrosslike) straight-up beating down of the bad guys. They saw the human villains' role as being just trying to take personal advantage of a war that couldn't really be solved peacefully, while not noticing or dismissing how Ranka had been seeing something more complex in the enemy rather than just being fed up with how she was feeling manipulated. The cues were subtle and easy not to read as a viewer, compared to SDFM and Mac7 strongly telegraphing the (especially in the former) "really the aliens are people we can connect with" and (especially in the latter) "and even if we can it would be wrong to just slaughter them all while there's maybe a better way."

Granted, when it turned out that her attempt to reconcile things was another trap of the villains that added more complication. Still, all I don't understand is people who saw to the end and had it all explained, but still see it as a simple betrayal of humanity to genuine monsters. It's like if fans were still angry at Max for marrying Milia: "I can't believe he'd do that! Shacking up with one of the same squadron that killed Roy! Traitor!"

So, if the Vajra had been as hot as Millia, everyone would've accepted the ending, eh?

I agree with both you and Murcurial Morpheus. Ranka leaving Frontier never seemed to me like a traitorous act, rather a very heroic gesture on her part to take matters into her own hands and try to resolve the conflict. If she had said, "I'm leaving Frontier and going to Planet Banipal. Enjoy the tasty, lobster-cannon death that awaits you, suckers!" then yeah...it would've been running away. But she was going off the face the Vajra, not try to get away from them...and she had recovered enough of her memory to know the connection she had with them.

On the other hand, I do think Sheryl's story was handled better than Ranka's, mostly because Sheryl got all the really good scenes...hell, her generosity of spirit almost overshadowed Michael's death, and that was one of the best scenes in the show. Ranka's absence in the last few episodes also benefitted Sheryl in a way that Sheryl's infirmity didn't benefit Ranka earlier in the series.

But that's Sheryl. She's a real star, and it's part of her character that he has to overwhelm anything around her. As I said, I don't think Ranka's growth was handled as well, but I agree with you that it IS there.

But hey, why pay attention to subtle touches when I can get myself all hot and bothered by shouting about how the green-haired little wanko gets everything handed to her, and how Kawamori is a no-talent hack (and a 49-year-old virgin!) for liking her...?

[Agent ONE]

Only silly people.

...and there are many here.

[macross1979]

Yeah the Vajra were just too alien. The villains didn't really show up to the end. Yes Glasses girl and Stupid Hair cut guy (I can't remember either of their names) were acting suspicious and stuff but you didn't get to see the other side. There was no person(s) representing the bad guys through out the series for our heroes to battle each week. They spent most of the time thinking the Vajra were some mindless alien threat.

This is all so true...and the reason I was disappointed with MF. And I can't remember their damn names either....not really worth remembering.

You certainly can't please everyone.

QFT!

I blame Isaac Asimov.

I blame him too

But MF is still "Macross".

1) Valkyries

2) Love Triangle

3) Ppl singing

Those are the main elements that every Macross have.

Again....QFT!

Frankly, it's this way with any production. A lot cater to what is popular at the moment. It's why we had 3 CSI's, a dozen hospital/doctor shows. Lost, Heroes, Jericho, and many others filled that suspense-mystery drama category. And let's not get started on reality shows that pop up every season like clockwork. Macross is no less guilty than Gundam of catering to the "what's popular now" scene.

Seriously now....how can you NOT Quote this for TRUTH!

I liked Frontier better than Zero.

This I agree with. Even though you do get some frontal in Zero.

I can't believe this thread is still growing. Most people love Macross Frontier, DEAL

Me either mate.

...and there are many here.

If I quoe this for truth I will become one of those silly people...or will I.

[aerocombatpilot]

It's like if fans were still angry at Max for marrying Milia: "I can't believe he'd do that! Shacking up with one of the same squadron that killed Roy! Traitor!"

MY GOSH, in all these years of watching Macross I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!! Milia's squadron WAS responsible for Roy's death! Dang, how could I have missed that after all these years? Hot female Zentradi pilots can have that effect on one's memory!!

[Roy Focker]

Difference Between Classic Macross and Modern Macross?

Just look at the fan comics on ebay

This

http://cgi.ebay.com/MACROSS-DOUJINSHI-Hika...A1%7C240%3A1318

vs

That

http://cgi.ebay.com/Macross-Frontier-Douji...A1%7C240%3A1318

[Kronnang Dunn]

That

http://cgi.ebay.com/Macross-Frontier-Douji...A1%7C240%3A1318

Can't unsee...

[anime52k8]

MY GOSH, in all these years of watching Macross I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!! Milia's squadron WAS responsible for Roy's death! Dang, how could I have missed that after all these years? Hot female Zentradi pilots can have that effect on one's memory!!

Didn't milia kill kakizaki in DYRL??

[Kronnang Dunn]

Despite all the ecchi-moe-bishonen stuff I loved Frontier. Why? Because it had awesome designs, awesome sequences and because it was Macross...

If I could tolerate the little things I didn't like to enjoy the show, why can't you?