Raise your hand

[sketchley]

If your argument is correct, then who has been purchasing the Macross Frontier soundtracks and singles that have apparently been so popular? Just interested to know.

(...)

You're question is intriguing. As it shows more about yourself than about questioning my arguement. It basically states that you are assuming that a foreign culture and lifestyle is exactly the same as your native culture. Please do a little research* before asking, thank you.

In answer to your question: obviously people who work for a living have a lot more money available to spend than people in junior high school who don't have jobs.**

*Recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_...ior_high_school

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juku (education isn't cheap. These kids don't have part-time jobs. Nor do they tend to have the free time to do anything but school - club (usually sports, esp. baseball) - juku - homework. It's actually "normal" for junior high school teenagers to study until 4 AM, getting up at 7 or 7:30 AM the next day. This is especially true come exam time. It's quite alarming. Mind you, the Grade 3 or 4 student I have who makes the same statement is generally agreed to be not normal; by both peers and adults.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_...ndary_education (the "examination hell" paragraph)

**Caveat: yes, not everyone in Japan who finishes junior high school continues on to high school; and of those, not as many continue on to higher education. However, once finished school (junior high school, or otherwise), the person joins the workforce - which I included with my original post ("just started working crowd"); which is inclusive of Freeters and NEATs/NEETs. Yes, some of them could be classified as teenagers, but as they are not persuing the typical teenage lifestyle (see exam hell lifestyle), it is more realistic to classify them as part of the workforce.

Edited March 22, 2009 by sketchley

[Killer Robot]

This hit the nail on the head for me. At the time of the original Macross gritty space operas inspired by Gundam were the trend. Not only is this much more appealing to me but it was also in my time, when I was young. This just isn`t my time and I failed to feel any connection to Macross Frontier. I guess its impossible to recreate the feeling of the original Macross in current times if you want it to make money and have mass appeal with today`s generation.

On the contrary, I much enjoy Macross for how it took how gritty Gundam space opera was the big new thing and often did a lot of things that would be expected there, but then just as much turned them around into something new or at least opposite the mold. I got much the same feel from Frontier, in classic or current cliches being recognized but then twisted around and subverted somehow.

I grant, sometimes Frontier felt like it was playing too much on the fanservice laden cliches of the 2000s teen anime it is an example of, but no more than Macross 7 played on the super mecha cliches of the 1990s kids' anime it was an example of, or for what I can tell of the original and how it fit into the cliches of its eras. I never saw any of them as a young and impressionable child though, so I don't have that level of pure nostalgia for new stuff to not measure up to either.

[taksraven]

You're question is intriguing. As it shows more about yourself than about questioning my arguement. It basically states that you are assuming that a foreign culture and lifestyle is exactly the same as your native culture.

No, you word it like I said that teenagers must be buying the soundtrack CD's. Thats not what I said. With your mention of university students in your original post I suspected what your answer would be. I just didn't expect to be talked to like I was a caveman who had just fallen out of his tree. And please, never *ever* assume that I am assuming anything.

Please do a little research* before asking, thank you.

Well, you are the one who bragged about living there. Whatever.

In answer to your question: obviously people who work for a living have a lot more money available to spend than people in junior high school who don't have jobs.**

*Recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_...ior_high_school

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juku (education isn't cheap. These kids don't have part-time jobs. Nor do they tend to have the free time to do anything but school - club (usually sports, esp. baseball) - juku - homework. It's actually "normal" for junior high school teenagers to study until 4 AM, getting up at 7 or 7:30 AM the next day. This is especially true come exam time. It's quite alarming. Mind you, the Grade 3 or 4 student I have who makes the same statement is generally agreed to be not normal; by both peers and adults.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_...ndary_education (the "examination hell" paragraph)

**Caveat: yes, not everyone in Japan who finishes junior high school continues on to high school; and of those, not as many continue on to higher education. However, once finished school (junior high school, or otherwise), the person joins the workforce - which I included with my original post ("just started working crowd"); which is inclusive of Freeters and NEATs/NEETs. Yes, some of them could be classified as teenagers, but as they are not persuing the typical teenage lifestyle (see exam hell lifestyle), it is more realistic to classify them as part of the workforce.

This quote right above, its all you had to say. As a fellow teacher, you should know that if a student asks you a question, you don't begin your answer with "Well, aren't you an idiot for not knowing.........." or "Your question proves what a dummy you are."

Thanks for trying to teach me, sorry I'm such a rotten student.

Taksraven

[sketchley]

No, you word it like I said that teenagers must be buying the soundtrack CD's. Thats not what I said. With your mention of university students in your original post I suspected what your answer would be. I just didn't expect to be talked to like I was a caveman who had just fallen out of his tree. And please, never *ever* assume that I am assuming anything.

Ah, apologies for that. Though, Mr. Caveman, your question could have been phrased better to differentiate it from the topic of Macross F not being produced for the Japanese teen.

Well, you are the one who bragged about living there. Whatever.

The point still stands that people from outside of Japan should not automatically assume that Japan (or any other country, nation, or culture) is exactly the same as their own.

Though I find it odd that you claim that I'm bragging that I live here (Japan). Wouldn't bragging have been: "I've lived in Japan a long time, and you don't, ha ha! U sux!" instead of the "As a long time resident, who teaches Japanese teens on a daily basis," that I wrote, which is a fact added to confirm that I have first hand experience with the subject of the arguement?

Edited March 22, 2009 by sketchley

[MisaForever]

Ah, apologies for that. Though, Mr. Caveman, your question could have been phrased better to differentiate it from the topic of Macross F not being produced for the Japanese teen.

The point still stands that people from outside of Japan should not automatically assume that Japan (or any other country, nation, or culture) is exactly the same as their own.

Though I find it odd that you claim that I'm bragging that I live here (Japan). Wouldn't bragging have been: "I've lived in Japan a long time, and you don't, ha ha! U sux!" instead of the "As a long time resident, who teaches Japanese teens on a daily basis," that I wrote, which is a fact added to confirm that I have first hand experience with the subject of the arguement?

You know what? Who cares where you live and what you think. This is a Macross board so I think we should discuss Macross.

[sketchley]

You know what? Who cares where you live and what you think. This is a Macross board so I think we should discuss Macross.

Oh how silly of me. I guess defending one's arguement in a discussion about the target audience of Macross F is not discussing Macross.

Pfft. Whatever.

[Gubaba]

You know what? Who cares where you live and what you think. This is a Macross board so I think we should discuss Macross.

That's it! No soup translations for you!

And your avatar talks too much.

[Jasonc]

It seems to me, that many people here have a sense of entitlement when it comes to what Macross should be. Because Macross F wasn't exactly what they expected, they won't accept it, or like it. While there are some things that definitely aren't going to appeal to the hardcore original fans (we are a bit older now), Macross F did exactly what the creator wanted it to do, it made money, created tons of merchandise profits, and made more fans of the series, even if short term fans. I think this series appeals to the general demographic of anime viewers, wether here or in Japan. What's good about it is that even with the complaints that we all have, some more than others, we are all here, have seen it, and are still talking about it.

I guess my biggest complaint of the show was the ambiguous ending that leaves that "WTF" question. For the other complaints, I've watched enough modern anime to have a good concept of what's popular and what sells in anime. A lot of that is what is in Macross F. While it doesn't appeal to most here, it's there, it is what it is, and I don't think they detract from the depth of the show enough to have serious complaints. The show still has it's complexities, and definitely enough mecha to drool at. I've realized after Macross Zero that you can't compare all shows afterward to the original. If you do that, you'll always find something to gripe at. I'd rather just enjoy each series in the Macross franchise for what it is, and tie the stories together afterward.

If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine, these are just my thoughts on all of it. We're all gonna have our different takes on this subject, so I don't expect all to nod their head in agreement at me.

[aerocombatpilot]

It seems to me, that many people here have a sense of entitlement when it comes to what Macross should be. Because Macross F wasn't exactly what they expected, they won't accept it, or like it. While there are some things that definitely aren't going to appeal to the hardcore original fans (we are a bit older now), Macross F did exactly what the creator wanted it to do, it made money, created tons of merchandise profits, and made more fans of the series, even if short term fans. I think this series appeals to the general demographic of anime viewers, wether here or in Japan. What's good about it is that even with the complaints that we all have, some more than others, we are all here, have seen it, and are still talking about it.

I guess my biggest complaint of the show was the ambiguous ending that leaves that "WTF" question. For the other complaints, I've watched enough modern anime to have a good concept of what's popular and what sells in anime. A lot of that is what is in Macross F. While it doesn't appeal to most here, it's there, it is what it is, and I don't think they detract from the depth of the show enough to have serious complaints. The show still has it's complexities, and definitely enough mecha to drool at. I've realized after Macross Zero that you can't compare all shows afterward to the original. If you do that, you'll always find something to gripe at. I'd rather just enjoy each series in the Macross franchise for what it is, and tie the stories together afterward.

If anyone disagrees with me, that's fine, these are just my thoughts on all of it. We're all gonna have our different takes on this subject, so I don't expect all to nod their head in agreement at me.

I believe you're right when you say we should enjoy each Macross series for what they are, not what we would want them to be. As I watch now watch Macross 7 again (don't tell Gubaba), I find that I can enjoy it by not comparing it to the original Macross. When it first aired, I wanted it to resemble SDFM, and when that never happened; I hated it! Well, after

several years have passed, I think I've grown out of the "I want my Macross sequel" mindset. I think that after Macross F,

I come to accept the fact that "My Macross" will never be made, and I must resign myself to whatever Macross incarnation Mr. Kawamori comes up with next. As far as my complaint with Macross F has always been the design of the characters.

I think Mikimoto would have done a much better job on them. Besides that, well there isn't anything else I could really complain about.

[Gubaba]

I believe you're right when you say we should enjoy each Macross series for what they are, not what we would want them to be. As I watch now watch Macross 7 again (don't tell Gubaba), I find that I can enjoy it by not comparing it to the original Macross. When it first aired, I wanted it to resemble SDFM, and when that never happened; I hated it! Well, after

several years have passed, I think I've grown out of the "I want my Macross sequel" mindset. I think that after Macross F,

I come to accept the fact that "My Macross" will never be made, and I must resign myself to whatever Macross incarnation Mr. Kawamori comes up with next. As far as my complaint with Macross F has always been the design of the characters.

I think Mikimoto would have done a much better job on them. Besides that, well there isn't anything else I could really complain about.

Cripes, can I tell you how much I wanted to like Macross 7 the first time I saw it? And I just...couldn't. Of course, it doesn't help that pretty much everything I read about it made it sound like "The Further Adventures of Max and Millia." It seemed to fail on so many counts (based on my perceptions of what I wanted it to be), that it was a long time before I watched it a second time. Lo and behold, when I did...I liked it. I didn't adore it, and I still don't, but it's perfectly adequate IMO.

Fonrtier, on the other hand, I loved from the get-go, and loved all the way through it. So having people say that it only exists to cater to the perversions of high school boys (Okay, that's an exaggeration, I admit) rankles me a bit. I liked the story, I liked the characters, I liked the mecha. It wasn't perfect, but wit all the things it could have been, I'm exceedingly glad that it ended up being a fun, exciting show with some innovative filming and storytelling techniques. And that's good enough for me.

[dizman]

It's kinda funny that I enjoyed Mac7 quite a bit but I didn't love Mac F, I barely even liked it. The only thing that saved the series from being bad for me was the final episode. So many steryotypes in so little time and most of the characters we never got to know or care about (was I supposed to care about Klan's sister dying?). I also found most of the dog fights boring.

[MisaForever]

Oh how silly of me. I guess defending one's arguement in a discussion about the target audience of Macross F is not discussing Macross.

Pfft. Whatever.

ACK, sorry Sketchley, I meant to aim that at BOTH of you, not just you. Sorry about that.

[MisaForever]

That's it! No soup translations for you!

And your avatar talks too much.

But she's telling you something important!

[Renato]

I thought the first episode was OK, and the second was fantastic. Then when I saw the 7th episode I was like "woah, this is gonna be amazing! Whose is that purple valk?? Is it piloted by a protoculture kid? There's so much more intrigue to be revealed!" And then it just went downhill. I never cared about any of the characters, which is the main factor in whether I enjoy the show or not. It's the reason I like Patlabor, Cowboy Bebop, Macross 7, etc... Without interesting characters, this show is totally empty to me. Ooh, the drama of Alto and his whole frickin' family. Who cares. Two girls in love with an uncharismatic hermaphrodite. Why?? The action was good, but I might as well just watch an AMV on Youtube to get the lean meat without the extra fat.

I re-watched the first few episodes as they aired a couple of times to pick out the details, but after a while I lost interest, so I have seen the whole show, but just once, on a crappy small-screen TV with a cheap VHS recording. I'm not in a hurry to watch it again.

[ff95gj]

Fonrtier, on the other hand, I loved from the get-go, and loved all the way through it. So having people say that it only exists to cater to the perversions of high school boys (Okay, that's an exaggeration, I admit) rankles me a bit. I liked the story, I liked the characters, I liked the mecha. It wasn't perfect, but wit all the things it could have been, I'm exceedingly glad that it ended up being a fun, exciting show with some innovative filming and storytelling techniques. And that's good enough for me.

Pretty much the same thought here... I am in mid-thirties, and I watched the original Macross around 10. At that time, Macross was something new, something innovative (just like Star Wars IV).

After a quarter of a century, there is another Macross. What do we want from it to be "Macross" and up-to-date?

I believe every person has his/her ideas. And to me, Macross Frontier has done a good job to revive the elements and told a new story successfully.

Again, there is no right or wrong in liking the show or not. Personally, I like the characters in MF. Some people complain about the depth of the characters; but in my perception they have done better in MF than in DYRL (too short to do much), M0 (even Shin has no character), and M7 (whatever).

I didn't really like the VF-25s until after the show. The design is good, but I wasn't thrilled. Until I know the characters, I start to like their vehicles. And then I want them badly. So it's the characters that lead me to the mechas.

And in terms of the story... I rank it the 2nd best in the Macross universe (haven't watched M2). Never liked the M0 bird god idea, wasn't satisifed with the M+ storyline (AI rebels... seen too many times), and I don't know what to say about M7. While this is not new, MF carries the message that human beings are so isolated owing to bad communications. And many wars come with mis-understanding and/ or different cultures.

Edited March 23, 2009 by ff95gj

[sketchley]

(...) As far as my complaint with Macross F has always been the design of the characters.

I think Mikimoto would have done a much better job on them. Besides that, well there isn't anything else I could really complain about.

I think I can agree with this. There's nothing wrong with the characters per se, just the abnormally large breast sizes of some of the female characters. It is the one thing that actually prevents me from recommending the series to other (non-anime fan) people. What a turn off...

@ MisaForever: next time, ignore the tangental discussions. By drawing attention to them, you're more than likely to increase their presence in the thread, thus defeating the purpose of your post(s).

[taksraven]

@ MisaForever: next time, ignore the tangental discussions. By drawing attention to them, you're more than likely to increase their presence in the thread, thus defeating the purpose of your post(s).

What he said. To quote Han Solo, "Boring conversation anyway".

I will agree on the matter of breasts, with certain characters and their portrayals certainly making it a bit more difficult to recommend it to others.

Would we go so far as to call it sexism, I don't know.

Taksraven

(Now I'll probably get jumped on for calling it sexism when its probably just some Japanase cultural tradition. I am probably saying too much about myself and my cultural prejudices.)

[azrael]

Mod Warning

How about a certain few people decide to take their nonsense conversation about Japanese culture to PM before I decide to give them an extended to permanent vacation. No apologies, replies, witty comebacks, or whatnot. Don't post if you have nothing to contribute to the topic. And that will be the last thing anyone has to say on the matter or else.

-------------

Now back to the topic...

Everyone has their own ideas about what Macross should be and how it should feel to them. But in this day and age of remakes, reboots, and multi-part franchises, I've given it all a big "meh". We have Michael Bay giving us his interpretations of Transformers, Stephen Sommers giving us G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, Scott Derickson behind The Day the Earth Stood Still from last year, and the list goes on. Now I may not like it, but even I enjoy a bit Michael Bay's Robot Explosions, even if it's not MY view of what Transformers should be.

[dreamweaver13]

My hands are definitely not raised.

I loved MF. I noticed that some (or much) of the criticism is that MF failed to live up to the holy grail that is SDFM. But for me, that's beside the point. MF has not replaced SDFM's position in my heart. The fact is that I never expected it to. As a part of the Macross franchise, i enjoyed MF thoroughly. And i'm just glad that the franchise lives on.

MF has its weaknesses, it has its downsides, but they weren't enough to ruin the whole series for me. And for me, as a person who has watched his fair share of anime over the years -- the good, the bad and the utterly horrendous -- i feel that the fan services employes in MF are very very tame. In fact, I hardly noticed them at all. It could be a case of me being desensitized over such things already, or it may be a case of me not making such a big deal out of those things. i think it's the latter...

[DeX-kun]

From my perspective, I think it's difficult to really judge the series for the simple fact that most people here are the more old school fans of the series. What I'm trying to say is that at the age of 10 or any young age (6-12) for that matter, we are more easily impressed with certain series but as we grow older, we tend to raise the bar so-to-speak because our expectations kind of ruin what the series is actually trying to portray. I for one am a big fan of MF but it's mostly because I'm a sucker for romance related anime and the Love Triangle was a big part of the story. Maybe some were turned off by all the focus on the romance and it didn't include all the action they were expecting but I enjoyed the series through my first run because I couldn't wait to see the next episode. When a series makes me impatient to watch the next episode, I think it's a pretty good anime overall but with all the "nods" to past Macross series in my opinion, did MF good in the long run, because it makes people that are new to Macross want to jump back in time and watch some more Macross which in the end leads to more money which is the major goal.

I do feel bad for those that felt MF didn't live up to their expectations but maybe you should ask yourself this; What if you watched MF at the same age that you watched your first Macross series? Maybe you'll be surprised to find out that you would have liked it the same, if not more than the original. Everyone has different tastes and it's just a matter of preferences. Now I'm not saying MF was perfect but I don't believe that they were wrong in the homages, especially considering they changed up the outcomes on quite a few occasions, Ozma's near death experience being one of the main examples.

Edited March 23, 2009 by DeX-kun

[Graham]

Those who didn't like or love MF, we have your names now and our operatives will be coming for you soon to escort you do the mandatory re-education camps. Do not try to flee. Resistance is futile.

[Morpheus]

Those who didn't like or love MF, we have your names now and our operatives will be coming for you soon to escort you do the mandatory re-education camps. Do not try to flee. Resistance is futile.

Graham, the Man in Black Valkyrie (MiBV)

[taksraven]

Everyone has their own ideas about what Macross should be and how it should feel to them. But in this day and age of remakes, reboots, and multi-part franchises, I've given it all a big "meh". We have Michael Bay giving us his interpretations of Transformers, Stephen Sommers giving us G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, Scott Derickson behind The Day the Earth Stood Still from last year, and the list goes on. Now I may not like it, but even I enjoy a bit Michael Bay's Robot Explosions, even if it's not MY view of what Transformers should be.

I think its terrible that we do live in the age of total remake meltdown. I can cope with some more than others, especially if the original left a lot to be desired. (BSG being a fine example)

But so many times they have gone back and done remakes when its a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Thats one of the things that I do like best about Macross, because it generally is moving forward and trying to be innovative and different each time.(apart from Zero of course, but even that was ok).

The alternatives are either spinning off a new series or OAV set in an alternate universe or, like I said before, no Macross at all.

Taksraven

[Nexx Stalker]

While I did enjoy the show, I don't think it deserves more than a 6 (and only because there are Valkyrie and, YES, Fire Bomber music in some episodes!). The aliens were "meh", too much plotholes and interesting ideas/characters undeveloped, huge amounts of fanservice, Klan and, most of alla Ranka did somehow ruin it for me. Maybe part of the "ruin it" thing is that this is the first Macross show I got the chance to see "as it happenes", so waiting a week after each episode raised my expectations maybe a bit too high for what was coming next. There were great episodes (1,2, 4, 10, 17 and 25), but that's it. Add to this that I hink Kanno did a subpar work on frontier (compared to her past masterpiece, I mean) and you know why I raise my hand.

Wait, I hear someone knocking at my door. Graham? What are you and your friends doing here... [the message ends abruptly]

Edited March 23, 2009 by Nexx Stalker

[Renato]

Kinda OT... To the admin member or mod who bestowed upon me such a charming custom member description in response to my comments above... Erm, it would be "funnier" if you had actually spelled "hermaphrodite" correctly. And for some reason my signature has been screwed up.

[REbirth]

A bit OT, but should it be "crossdresser" instead of "hermaphrodite"? At least Alto didn't have a big pair of breast

[MisaForever]

A bit OT, but should it be "crossdresser" instead of "hermaphrodite"? At least Alto didn't have a big pair of breast

Thank goodness for that!! He's one person that SHOULDN'T have had them.

[shiroikaze]

Thank goodness for that!! He's one person that SHOULDN'T have had them.

Alto as a DFC?

Actually, I'm more intrigued that I haven't seen any gender bending done on Alto yet...

Anyway, I say let's just live with the series, we all wish it could be better in some way but it's one of the better animes out there this time around. Also, I guess the trend for this generation of anime is about being over-the-top?

Edited March 23, 2009 by shiroikaze

[mr.chogokin]

No real man in his right mind would cross dress, regardless if it's for mandatory tradition or money's sake. Physically, he may have a pen1s, mentally, Alto has breasts bigger than Nanase's and a holy grail of younger sister's pussy that can never be attained, enjoyed or violated by fanboys, no matter how many Frontier merchandize of Alto are purchased. So, yes. Alto is a hermaphrodite. No amount of time in the gym or hormone injection can change that because he's been damaged as a child.

Edited March 23, 2009 by mr.chogokin

[azrael]

You know, we have a section called "Feedback". Consider using it for things dealing with your accounts.

I loved MF. I noticed that some (or much) of the criticism is that MF failed to live up to the holy grail that is SDFM. But for me, that's beside the point. MF has not replaced SDFM's position in my heart. The fact is that I never expected it to. As a part of the Macross franchise, i enjoyed MF thoroughly. And i'm just glad that the franchise lives on.

No one said MF was suppose to replace SDFM. It's a sequel, not a re-imaging, not a reboot, or any of that. It's just another story inside that big Macross world (pun intended).

Maybe part of the "ruin it" thing is that this is the first Macross show I got the chance to see "as it happenes", so waiting a week after each episode raised my expectations maybe a bit too high for what was coming next. There were great episodes (1,2, 4, 10, 17 and 25), but that's it. Add to this that I hink Kanno did a subpar work on frontier (compared to her past masterpiece, I mean) and you know why I raise my hand.

And there's no problem with that. I had issues with it. In light of some of the post-series interviews with it, I probably have a few more which lowers my view of the series.

And here's a question I'm going to throw at everyone else. Let's say we didn't watch this series on a week-by-week basis. Let's say someone gave us or let us borrow the "entire season DVD set" and we watched it all at once. Would that have any impact on how you would view the series? Just like if someone gave you an entire season of Battlestar Galactica (either the original or RDM's re-image), or Firefly, or Star Trek. Would watching it in bulk affect how you view the series as opposed to watching it on a week-by-week basis? Would you be harsher or feel less hype?

[Mr March]

This thread is all win

Macross Frontier worked for me. I got that giddy kid-in-me feeling when Alto jumped into the VF-25 GERWALK and opened fire in episode one. The feeling carried through the show and ended on a very high note. That's more of a benchmark than a thousand reviews and pretty much the whole reason for watching something like Macross in the first place.

There was quit e a bit about Macross Frontier that impressed me. In particular, I enjoyed how Frontier subverted the rather ridiculous character design of Alto. It was a real pleasure watching Alto fume as the punchline to every princess/girl/ma'am joke. It gave us permission to like the character and served as a way for the audience to relate to him rather than being resentfully forced to tolerate him, like the yaoi bait in virtually every other modern anime. The character design and personality of Alto also created a very credible link between Alto and Sheryl, since they both suffer from a certain alienation in society due to their looks and talent. It was a key ingredient that's often missing from so many other anime series that force us to accept a relationship between characters just because the plot demands it. And speaking of subverting, I loved how Macross Frontier played with the expectations of old school fans. While watching Macross Frontier, there were so many times I figured I knew what was going to happen because the story was playing out like past Macross tales. But then the rug would be pulled out from underneath us and something unexpected would happen. I remain surprised Macross Frontier was so popular with younger crowds because several aspects of the show felt tailor-made for old school fans.

To consider the things that bothered me about Frontier, I felt the "Cybernetic Conspiracy" with Grace and the Macross Galaxy were underwritten. This sub plot felt like a blatant attempt to emulate the mysterious and unexplained atmosphere of anime such as Neon Genesis Evangelion. It was also a shame that the writers mishandled Alto's family problems in the latter part of the series. The tension between Alto and his family was dramatically engaging for the first half of the series, but because the sub plot was underwritten into irrelevance later in the story, it became mostly extraneous at end of the series. Probably more than anything else, these weaker sub-plots hurt the pacing and flow of the last third of the series (ironically, a somewhat similar case of weak pace and narrative flow that happened in the last third of the original SDF Macross series). Some fan service excess and the odd weak episode bothered me, but my complaints never went much beyond that. For an anime, it was certainly a strong series and the finale was nothing short of a mecha series at it's finest.

[Bri]

And here's a question I'm going to throw at everyone else. Let's say we didn't watch this series on a week-by-week basis. Let's say someone gave us or let us borrow the "entire season DVD set" and we watched it all at once. Would that have any impact on how you would view the series? Just like if someone gave you an entire season of Battlestar Galactica (either the original or RDM's re-image), or Firefly, or Star Trek. Would watching it in bulk affect how you view the series as opposed to watching it on a week-by-week basis? Would you be harsher or feel less hype?

Most of the time watching a series in bulk helps me to apreciate it more. I was more positive then most about series like Gundam Seed Destiny, Xam'd and Macross 7. These all had some pacing issues or were somewhat repatative. Being able to skip the credits or the recpa episode helps a lot instead of having to wait another week.

An exception was BSG season 3, it was very similar and dark so I got a bit saturated at some point and didn't apreciate it as much as if I would have seen it weekly by episode like season 4.

[sharky]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Macross F isn't really Macross. You could have a series with crappy Valkyries, a lame love triangle, and people singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"* and it could legitimately be called Macross...no one would watch it however.

Frontier "worked" for a lot of people. It also didn't pass muster for many. I think Roy Focker was fearing that future macross stories would take their cues from Frontier rather than from the original series, not saying that Frontier was not a "real" Macross series.

*Specific song added to fend off "clever" replies like, "Just like Macross 7!" or "That's Macross II in a nutshell!"

One thing I think about when I watch SDF-M, is how dated it all is. The way stories are written, the pace of a series, fan service, etc has come a long way since the 80s. I am a huge Macross fan, but when I watch some episodes of SDF-M I kind of fall asleep. Actually, I probably would have been disappointed if Macross F was too much like SDF-M. Things must evolve, and I personally enjoyed what Macross F brought to the table.

I'm just glad MF was not like Macross 7. I still haven't seen all of Macross 7 yet. It just has never held my interest. I think Kawamori and company wrote a Macross story in a manner that is consistent with what is popular and the norm now just like SDF-M was written in a similar manner in the 80s. I don't even know what the hell happened during the M7 years.

Gubaba, your "crappy Valkyries, row row row your boat, lame love triangle" analogy kind of brings thoughts of M7 to mind. No disrespect to any M7 fans out there. Just my opinion.

[Killer Robot]

I really agree with Mr. March on this one. I had some annoyances with the playing up of cliches both ancient and modern at the start, but more often I found myself pleased by how they were flipped or subverted. Alto's girlish looks being called out in setting for one. The pineapple twist too, and the even greater joke on the audience that really Ozma was never a Roy tribute storywise in the first place: the story had a womanizing, overbearing, teasing senior to the protagonist from day one and everyone had just been thrown by the glasses and blue paint. The lolicon Klan look bugged me, but they at least managed to steer it into character development rather than just have someone look like a little girl for no apparent reason.

The Evangelion thing is one I noticed, and was watching for as I watched the series: it's the first Macross TV series since Evangelion and I expected to see some influence. There certainly was: on the down side, it did play heavy into the secret conspiracy thing. On the up side, I liked the secret conspiracy to some level because this is the first time I recall in a Macross series where a villain or antagonist wasn't clearly so on first meeting and where there was meaningful speculation over who the bad guys were. It added a fresh dimension to the series, though it wasn't done perfectly. What also felt borrowed from Evangelion was the theme of people only able to find their real strength through connection with others - the big difference of course being that Evangelion was a dark story about people who failed at that, and Frontier a more optimistic one about those who in the end succeeded. All in all, it wasn't an Evangelion clone like many mecha series of the past ten years have been, though: Frontier just is something made in a genre shaped by Evangelion just like SDFM was made in a genre shaped by Mobile Suit Gundam.

Dropped or unexplored plotlines too: this one I think is simpler to explain, though. Frontier was shorter than it needed to be. There was some stuff that can be called filler, but no more than some of SDFM and certainly less than much of Mac7: giving the whole plotline as written a full treatment would have been much easier if it had 5-10 more episodes to work with.

To answer azrael, it's a big difference going between watching a series marathon style and having to wait week by week: for example with BSG I started watching mostly through season 2, so watched a lot in quick succession, then was caught up so had to start waiting. Waiting is weird: depending on just how the plotline is going I might let things go a few weeks then catch up, or I might hang on things week by week. In Frontier's case, I started with the first 6 episodes and had fun. After that I'd watch them in no big hurry as they came out, sometimes waiting a week and catching up two episodes at a time. I still enjoyed it, but it wasn't urgently paced. Then for the last six episodes or so I was getting hooked, hurrying to download the next one the moment I could find a subbed torrent, to see what was coming next.

As for SDFM: it is dated. Don't get me wrong: I never saw it until 5-6 years ago, and I rewatched the whole thing last year, so it's still something I can easily enjoy. But not just the animation but also the storytelling mold is something now somewhat archaic and strange to see these days. On the flip side of that, it being an older piece today makes other things come out differently: Macross has lots and lots of early 80s anime stereotypical looks, cliches, fanservice approaches, and so on. It has a lot of truly original and innovative approaches, but if there had been mecha web forums when it came out I'm sure we'd see a lot of archived posts about how "That new Macross show is all a bunch of tired cliches and fanservice! Did you see the shower scene they tossed in with the 15 year old girl for no reason? And geez, all the pilots and crew are total mecha show stereotypes, except where they filled the bridge with a bunch of girls to cater to the horny fanboys," etc. To say nothing of how the archives here would look if this forum had been up when Macross 7 came out.

[Mr March]

And here's a question I'm going to throw at everyone else. Let's say we didn't watch this series on a week-by-week basis. Let's say someone gave us or let us borrow the "entire season DVD set" and we watched it all at once. Would that have any impact on how you would view the series? Just like if someone gave you an entire season of Battlestar Galactica (either the original or RDM's re-image), or Firefly, or Star Trek. Would watching it in bulk affect how you view the series as opposed to watching it on a week-by-week basis? Would you be harsher or feel less hype?

I don't watch television and I can't stand most commercials. If I'm at a friend's with the TV on, I have to mute the television when the adverts appear.

So, the only way I get to watch the odd TV series I actually want to see, it has to be on the internet or on DVD. If I have to watch a series on a specific schedule with commercials, that's a TV series I won't be watching. I don't know how other people do it, but I've never been able to schedule my life around television. I always end up missing episodes. A friend made me promise to try watching broadcast TV back during the 2nd season of 24. I lasted two episodes. So broadcast negatively impacts my enjoyment of any show.

I don't miss broadcast TV all that much. I miss some of the water cooler conversation and the odd Simpsons/Family Guy joke, but overall I gain more than I lose. When I do see something worth watching, like The Wire, Battlestar Galactica or Macross Frontier, I watch them when I want, commercial free, all at once or as they become available. I prefer watching entire seasons over a week or two or sometimes in a few days if I'm really hooked. I watch it, enjoy it and then I'm free to do whatever else. IMO, watching series in weekly installments is archaic. But I recognize that I'm the rare exception and not the rule

EDIT Oh, and as a side note, the horrible release schedule of Macross Zero did contribute to my annoyance with it. Granted, if it had been to my liking in the end, all would have been forgiven. But the stupid delays between episodes only made a bad story worse.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Mr March