Raise your hand

[Roy Focker]

To make this clear I don't hate Macross F with all of my heart. I just don't love it with all of my loins. I've watched it all the way through. I just haven't had the desire to re-watch it or run out and buy Macross F related merchandise. I know I can't be alone.

Name your fetish. Macross F delivers. There's the adolescent sex objects. Nothing new in anime or Macross. When I look back at Macross Past, not all the babes of Macross were adults. They were Britney Spears level jail bait. With Macross F you got a few Dakota Fanning characters. You can't claim she said she was 18 with the Macross F characters. No one would believe you. There is also the Alto & Micheal stuff. Official and non official art work that show cases some of the fetishes. Seems to be more Macross Fan art and cosplay then then was of the other stuff.

Macross F nods to former Macross series but I see it as just catering to modern anime taste. It caters to the lowest common denominator. I didn't care much about Macross Zero after it ended. At least with Macross Zero Kawamori seemed to have did what he wanted. Macross F it seemed they took at look at what popular, did that and then try to cover every type of fan service possible. I do see a good story in Macross F but there's just so much fan service or pointless filler. I haven't been keeping up on Macross F news. Like that Movie. Is it suppose to be a condensed version? Macross F could benefit from being a shorter movie form. I don't think Macross F is the anti-christ I'm just not a fan. It sucks because Macross F is so popular. I want Macross to continue but I want it to be "Macross" not just "what's popular now' with Valkyries.

[kanedaestes]

This isn't the first time though. Macross 7 could also be said that he was going for what was popular at the time. Actually most of his series tend to be what is popular at the time. I feel though he may have wanted to do something a little different this was overall great for the franchise and helps keep it alive after 25 years later. It's like the exchange in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back between Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. You have to do the safe stuff then do the artistic stuff. A show like Macross could easily fade away but he tends to bring it back to the fore front at just the right times. One could say Macross Plus and Macross Zero were more artistic hence why they were OVAs but the actual series are safe spots. Look at Gundam. They just rehash the same themes over and over but change them to reflect what's hot and popular or current with today's times and that's how it survives.

I do like your opinion, it is good to see it from different views, I just feel I understand why he does things like the ones you mention and think it is a good idea. Now we are guaranteed to have more Macross for years to come.

[Cyclone Trooper]

I have to agree with you here. Macross F is fan-catering at its most blatant. Now I can understand that its supposed to be a string of nods to the original Macross with the VERY similar character types (Michel/Max; Ranka/Minmay, etc.), the Miclone/Meltran love-hate thing between Michel and Klan (Max & Milia, anyone?), the DYRL-style SDF ship, the Britai, Kamjin, and Exedol clones...the list goes on. Then there were the ever slick reminders that we're watching a 25th anniversary homage to Macross by adding "25" to the SMS uniform sleeves, a split-second eye-catch outside the concert arena (the place with the two big dragons on the roof) where all the signs outside the building were displaying "Macross 25th." Alto emulating Isamu's hand gestures, the DYRL rehash scene where Alto saves Ranka in midair, etc. Again...I could waste time listing more examples, but we all know what they are.

While I also didn't think it was the worst thing I've ever seen, I can honestly say that I, too, was left feeling a bit more like I was watching softcore hentai than something that I'd be proud to include in my mind's vision of what "Macross" is supposed to be. I may be skirting disaster here by bringing this parallel up, but I simply found the whole war with the Vajra idea to be way too much like MOSPEADA, and the fact that Valkyrie pilots now have augmented flying armor that they can wear outside of their mecha only cements my MOSPEADA opinion even more. Let's see...a hive-mind xenological enemy with various "stages" of evolution controlled by a "queen" all across the cosmos. Yep, seen it before...in MOSPEADA.

Now as I said, its not the worst thing ever made. The writing was actually quite good, IF the subbing was accurate. For the most part, I enjoyed the battle scenes and most of the witty banter between the core cast. But the fact that there were so many characters who were designed to be instantly recognizable as anagrams of original Macross "celebrities" just got old after a while. Hmmm...how many drew the glaring parallel between Cathy Glass and Misa Hayase? A show of hands please?

The only tip-of-the-hat that I really enjoyed was the Zentraedi Battalion that was having its own little private war amongst the ranks. It was cool to see a mix of TV-style Zentran troops along with DYRL-style shock troopers...led by a Kamjin clone. Again, this was sort of a remake of the episode in SDFM where Kamjin's forces attempt to steal a miclone chamber...reworked a tad, but cool nonetheless.

Would I sit through all 25 episodes again? Probably not. I'd file this away in the "been there, done that, moving on" folder right along with Macross 7.

And I don't really feel the need to add a VF-25 to my list of "must-have" mecha either...but that's an opinion I'll expand upon in the Toys forum.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[Roy Focker]

Macross Plus actually had some popularity over here. Nothing as huge as Macross F has. Frontier likely bought in more new fans. I see these new fans more as fans of what is "in" now. Than what "is" Macross.

[Roy Focker]

Yeah the Vajra were just too alien. The villains didn't really show up to the end. Yes Glasses girl and Stupid Hair cut guy (I can't remember either of their names) were acting suspicious and stuff but you didn't get to see the other side. There was no person(s) representing the bad guys through out the series for our heroes to battle each week. They spent most of the time thinking the Vajra were some mindless alien threat.

[kanedaestes]

I do feel that we never do see or even understand the real threat in the show. It was never the Vajra but their are tons of questions about Galaxy and their side of things. Honestly the only people we know or see from galaxy is Brera, Grace, and Sheryl.

[jenius]

You certainly can't please everyone. I thought Mac F was a lot better than other stuff out there. I really don't think there's any valid way someone can say "softcore hentai" in respect to this show... it has some guilty fan service moments but you're watching terrible softcore if this reminded you of it (and really, there are so many better things you could be doing with your time). The first seven episodes laid the correlations to past episodes a little thick for my liking but you also have to realize that the vast majority of the audience isn't as versed in Macross as the people on these boards so they didn't feel like they were being bludgeoned by the references as much as we did. I really appreciated the subtle nods (the dragons, the hand gestures, certain camera angles during mech action) but I was pretty put off by the early plot re-hashes from other series and I'm glad that didn't persist much beyond the first quarter of the show. The Vajra comparison the the Inbit has its points but Mospeada was about a band of freedom fighters and their trek across the world... not about human in-fighting over alien technologies. Mac F has a whole heck of a lot more to it than Mospeada (full disclosure: I am a big Mospeada fan).

The only tip-of-the-hat that I really enjoyed was the Zentraedi Battalion that was having its own little private war amongst the ranks. It was cool to see a mix of TV-style Zentran troops along with DYRL-style shock troopers...led by a Kamjin clone. Again, this was sort of a remake of the episode in SDFM where Kamjin's forces attempt to steal a miclone chamber...reworked a tad, but cool nonetheless.

I thought that episode was easily amongst the weakest in the "lets cram as much Macross (original) and Macross7 in one episode as we can."

So, while I'd say I really enjoyed Mac F I did have some issues. For one thing, I think the writers tried WAY too hard to create mystery and muddled the plot up in the process. A little mystery over who is after what is fine but between Leon/Glass/Grace/Grace's voices in her head/Brera/Biler/Vajra/Galaxy/Global I kind of gave up caring and just started thinking of Grace as the pure evil substitute and that's not very fun. There were a few other aspects I felt could have been better but overall I liked the show enough to easily recommend it and so far I haven't heard anyone truly unhappy with it... usually I got rather rapid requests for more DVDs.

[Roy Focker]

I don't think there is soft core hentai in the show. They just provide plenty of characters, situations for you to run off and create your own. If you've got a fanboy fetish for A, B or C. Macross Frontier is guilty of just capitalizing on it by providing fan service after fan service.

[taksraven]

This thread really seems to be stating the obvious.

Macross Frontier was flawed? Of course it was. Not many productions are perfect.

Macross Frontier pandered to the fans of Macross and anime in general? Yes it did, we know that too.

Macross Frontier depicted material to appeal to various fetishes? Well duh!

Macross Frontier was made in such a way to court popularity with the public? Yes, but since when has that been a crime?

In my mind, Macross Frontier was made to be a fun and enjoyable experience for the fans. A bit of a love-letter to the fans, yes that too. BUT, it was also designed to include elements that would attract new fans.

Just a little reality check for hardcore fans. This program was not made to keep you happy. It was made to make money.

Thats a simple commercial reality that a lot of people fail to grasp. If it looked like this show would not have made money, it would not have been produced, or it would have been made with a much lower budget. Simple as that.

My best advice to people who don't like it, don't watch it.

Taksraven

And BTW, why do people get so hung up about portrayals of sex and sexuality in SF? People carry on like it has no place in it.

Edited March 21, 2009 by taksraven

[Gubaba]

This thread really seems to be stating the obvious.

Macross Frontier was flawed? Of course it was. Not many productions are perfect.

Macross Frontier pandered to the fans of Macross and anime in general? Yes it did, we know that too.

Macross Frontier depicted material to appeal to various fetishes? Well duh!

Macross Frontier was made in such a way to court popularity with the public? Yes, but since when has that been a crime?

In my mind, Macross Frontier was made to be a fun and enjoyable experience for the fans. A bit of a love-letter to the fans, yes that too. BUT, it was also designed to include elements that would attract new fans.

Just a little reality check for hardcore fans. This program was not made to keep you happy. It was made to make money.

Thats a simple commercial reality that a lot of people fail to grasp. If it looked like this show would not have made money, it would not have been produced, or it would have been made with a much lower budget. Simple as that.

My best advice to people who don't like it, don't watch it.

Taksraven

Hear, hear! To people who don't like Frontier, I advise a "Make-Your-Own-Macross" approach, which is what I do with Gundam. I watch the Gundam shows I like and ignore the ones I don't.

And BTW, why do people get so hung up about portrayals of sex and sexuality in SF? People carry on like it has no place in it.

I blame Isaac Asimov.

[MisaForever]

I watch the Gundam shows I like and ignore the ones I don't.

I didn't know Gundam had any shows that anyone would like.

BTW Roy, when you say it was popular "here", where are you talking about? Where are you exactly?

[REbirth]

My best advice to people who don't like it, don't watch it.

Taksraven

This.

Otherwise, I find no problem with Macross F being popular, duh, it's Macross, the biggest mecha franchise second only to Gundam, of course it's going to be popular and be able attract more new fans. Same deal with SDF Macross and Macross 7 (Macross 7 was too damn popular back in the 90s).

But the popularity isn't going to last long though, because the 5,6 years gap between each Macross, we won't have Kawamori/Satelight spawning new Macross series every 2 years.

I find no problem with fanservice, since mecha anime (and Macross) have existed with fanservice for quite a long time.

[Gubaba]

I didn't know Gundam had any shows that anyone would like.

That's because you've never actually sat down and WATCHED any of them.

[MisaForever]

That's because you've never actually sat down and WATCHED any of them.

True. Someday maybe...... someday.

[akt_m]

But MF is still "Macross".

1) Valkyries

2) Love Triangle

3) Ppl singing

Those are the main elements that every Macross have.

[Gubaba]

But MF is still "Macross".

1) Valkyries

2) Love Triangle

3) Ppl singing

Those are the main elements that every Macross have.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Macross F isn't really Macross. You could have a series with crappy Valkyries, a lame love triangle, and people singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"* and it could legitimately be called Macross...no one would watch it however.

Frontier "worked" for a lot of people. It also didn't pass muster for many. I think Roy Focker was fearing that future macross stories would take their cues from Frontier rather than from the original series, not saying that Frontier was not a "real" Macross series.

*Specific song added to fend off "clever" replies like, "Just like Macross 7!" or "That's Macross II in a nutshell!"

Edited March 21, 2009 by Gubaba

[anime52k8]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Macross F isn't really Macross. You could have a series with crappy Valkyries, a lame love triangle, and people singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"* and it could legitimately be called Macross...no one would watch it however.

*Specific song added to fend off "clever" replies like, "Just like Macross 7!" or "That's Macross II in a nutshell!"

that still sounds like Macross II in a nutshell actually.

[taksraven]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Macross F isn't really Macross. You could have a series with crappy Valkyries, a lame love triangle, and people singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"* and it could legitimately be called Macross...no one would watch it however.

Frontier "worked" for a lot of people. It also didn't pass muster for many. I think Roy Focker was fearing that future macross stories would take their cues from Frontier rather than from the original series, not saying that Frontier was not a "real" Macross series.

*Specific song added to fend off "clever" replies like, "Just like Macross 7!" or "That's Macross II in a nutshell!"

"Row, Row, Row Your Boat"

Sounds like Star Trek V in a nutshell actually!!! A-hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Taksraven

Edited March 21, 2009 by taksraven

[The Saint]

I've certainly got plenty of personal gripes about Frontier, but I think you're being a tad bit harsh, Roy.

You can't claim she said she was 18 with the Macross F characters. No one would believe you.

Not quite sure what the age of majority in North America has to do with the appropriate age for teenage relationships (none of which went beyond minimalist kissing) within in a fictional work from an Asian culture whose age of majority is 20. And age of consent is 13.

There is also the Alto & Micheal stuff. Official and non official art work that show cases some of the fetishes. Seems to be more Macross Fan art and cosplay then then was of the other stuff.

That's an issue with modern anime fan culture and technology, not the show itself. That's like blaming Star Trek for Picard/Riker slash fiction on the internet.

If SDFM wasn't so dated, you can expect plenty of Roy/Hikaru slash, too. Go, scary fangirls.

I do see a good story in Macross F but there's just so much fan service or pointless filler.

Most of Minmei (Ugh, impromptu shower) and Mylene for in-your-face fanservice, and 50% of Macross 7 for pointless fillers? Maybe now I'm being overly harsh.

[Roy Focker]

Ah but neither Picard or Rikker looked or dressed like a girl. That requires your own imagination to even come with the idea of them being together. Frontier gives you all the building blocks. There was fanservice before in Macross but not as much nor did it flirt with every taboo. What ever your thing, is Macross F(an Service) got you covered.

[VF5SS]

Oh noes, my anime space opera has to appeal to people other than cranky 30-something westerners. What ever will we do.

[Zinjo]

This thread really seems to be stating the obvious.

Macross Frontier was flawed? Of course it was. Not many productions are perfect.

Macross Frontier pandered to the fans of Macross and anime in general? Yes it did, we know that too.

Macross Frontier depicted material to appeal to various fetishes? Well duh!

Macross Frontier was made in such a way to court popularity with the public? Yes, but since when has that been a crime?

In my mind, Macross Frontier was made to be a fun and enjoyable experience for the fans. A bit of a love-letter to the fans, yes that too. BUT, it was also designed to include elements that would attract new fans.

Just a little reality check for hardcore fans. This program was not made to keep you happy. It was made to make money.

Thats a simple commercial reality that a lot of people fail to grasp. If it looked like this show would not have made money, it would not have been produced, or it would have been made with a much lower budget. Simple as that.

My best advice to people who don't like it, don't watch it.

Taksraven

And BTW, why do people get so hung up about portrayals of sex and sexuality in SF? People carry on like it has no place in it.

Yep!

The real accomplishment is that it still managed to tell a coherent and progressive story for the universe despite all the pressure it was getting from its sponsors. Mac 7 didn't do so well in that area.

With the anemia that is currently being experienced in anime productions these days, getting talented, seasoned writers for a show cannot be easy. The writers of Frontier did an admirable job but if it hadn't been for some experienced blood showing up halfway through, I suspect we would have been much more disappointed. The show displayed little character drama and was seriously at risk of becoming more of a documentary piece than an engaging character drama (which is what all great SF ultimately is!).

Keep in mind this show was aimed at teenagers, not old school fans. Granted some may have watched the show in secret (anime is not something a Japanese adult wants to openly admit watching), but the show's purpose was to sell merchandise, toys and music to be specific, and from what we've seen in the Japanese market, it has succeeded for it's sponsors.

As already stated, the show was far from perfect and because entertainment is so subjective, it probably could never be perfect for some.

Compared to what I was initially expecting (based on the last Macross TV series) and what we got, I am satisfied that the show honored it's heritage. It isn't on the same level as SDFM, but then again few sequel productions have been.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Zinjo

[Agent ONE]

As much as I wanted to love it, I really don't.. It was just ok.

I still think SDFM is awesome, and DYRL is one of the greatest movies of all time.

Really, all other Macross shows are only good in respect that they please me as they remind me of DYRL/SDFM. Except 7 of course, there is nothing good about 7.

[taksraven]

Except 7 of course, there is nothing good about 7.

*Yawn*

[Mr March]

Hear, hear! To people who don't like Frontier, I advise a "Make-Your-Own-Macross" approach, which is what I do with Gundam. I watch the Gundam shows I like and ignore the ones I don't.

Likely one of the most intelligent posts ever made on Macross World. So true for ANY franchise, Macross, Gundam or otherwise.

[Bri]

I guess this why the site is called Macross World. No one needs to like all the series to join in on the discussion. Would get boring if everyone liked every part of the franchise.

[Ishimaru]

I see Macross Frontier as Shoji Kawomari's answer to fans to grab a mainstream audience, thus it has to appeal to everyone not just us hardcore peeps.

Edit: It did fail at that though, sort of.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Ishimaru

[bandit29]

Macross Frontier's pandering to every anime cliche/fetish doesn't bother me too much. This show is mainly intended for Japanese teens, not us old schoolers lol. I get that.

My main "issue" is with the character animation. It's all over the place. Sometimes its looks great, other times its cringe worthy..

Also most of the cast is rather forgettable. I really didn't care what they did or what happened to most of them. They weren't developed enough.

For obvious reasons, most of the budget went to the mech porn and soundtrack.

Overall I liked Macross Frontier. It won't top DYRL? Macross Plus or Zero though.

Edited March 22, 2009 by bandit29

[sketchley]

I'm just curious where the impression comes from that the show is aimed for Japanese teens, let alone that Japanese teens have the free time to watch it? Haven't you guys heard of examination hell?

As a long time resident, who teaches Japanese teens on a daily basis, I can say that the vast majority haven't heard of the show, let alone have interest in either watching anime or staying up late at night to watch TV.

Therefore, it's a fairly safe bet to state that the show is aimed at the university student/just started working crowd/20-something generation.

Edited March 22, 2009 by sketchley

[UN Spacy]

Oh noes, my anime space opera has to appeal to people other than cranky 30-something westerners. What ever will we do.

LOL. Best reply.

[taksraven]

...... or staying up late at night to watch TV.

Evidently no method available to record TV programs in Japan. (joke)

If your argument is correct, then who has been purchasing the Macross Frontier soundtracks and singles that have apparently been so popular? Just interested to know.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

My main "issue" is with the character animation. It's all over the place. Sometimes its looks great, other times its cringe worthy..

Just thought I would point out, that despite a few weaker moments, there was no bad animation in MacrossF that really compared to some of the bad outsourced animation from the original SDF:M. I use that as a benchmark and if it had ever gotten *that* bad I might be more inclined to agree with you.

And please don't post up that notoriously badly animated shot of Ranka. ;)

Taksraven

[MilSpex]

This isn't the first time though. Macross 7 could also be said that he was going for what was popular at the time. Actually most of his series tend to be what is popular at the time.

This hit the nail on the head for me. At the time of the original Macross gritty space operas inspired by Gundam were the trend. Not only is this much more appealing to me but it was also in my time, when I was young. This just isn`t my time and I failed to feel any connection to Macross Frontier. I guess its impossible to recreate the feeling of the original Macross in current times if you want it to make money and have mass appeal with today`s generation.

[azrael]

This hit the nail on the head for me. At the time of the original Macross gritty space operas inspired by Gundam were the trend. Not only is this much more appealing to me but it was also in my time, when I was young. This just isn`t my time and I failed to feel any connection to Macross Frontier. I guess its impossible to recreate the feeling of the original Macross in current times if you want it to make money and have mass appeal with today`s generation.

Frankly, it's this way with any production. A lot cater to what is popular at the moment. It's why we had 3 CSI's, a dozen hospital/doctor shows. Lost, Heroes, Jericho, and many others filled that suspense-mystery drama category. And let's not get started on reality shows that pop up every season like clockwork. Macross is no less guilty than Gundam of catering to the "what's popular now" scene.

[Gubaba]

This hit the nail on the head for me. At the time of the original Macross gritty space operas inspired by Gundam were the trend. Not only is this much more appealing to me but it was also in my time, when I was young. This just isn`t my time and I failed to feel any connection to Macross Frontier. I guess its impossible to recreate the feeling of the original Macross in current times if you want it to make money and have mass appeal with today`s generation.

You sound like an old man (which is weird, because if you were a kid in the '80s, then we must be around the same age). Both Kawamori and Ohnogi had a big hand in Frontier, and both of them are older than we are. It's impossible for us to (at least, it's impossible for ME) to recapture the sense of adventure and exitement I got from watching RT when I was eleven or so...but that's simply because the story seemed so REAL to me...when Vermillion Team and Misa were captured by the Zentradi, I quite honestly thought they might never make it back; when Roy died, it was a punch in the gut. I also thought it was a realistic, gritty space opera.

It was something of a revelation when, in college, I started getting the Robotech Perfect Collections, and found myself laughing out loud in the first few episodes because of the sheer amount of bad luck attended the launch of the Macross. I thought I was going to end up...not hating the series exactly, but afraid that it would lose its magic. Instead, I found myself won over by the exuberance and joy of the storytelling, the quality of the Japanese voice acting, the still-great design work, the lovely character design, and the pure sense of fun (not without its dark and tragic moments, however) in the series.

Which is exactly what I like about Frontier, as well.