Hiroshi Ohnogi and Macross Frontier

[Xeros]

Actually, I must say that I really enjoyed watching Macross Frontier during broadcast and interacting on the forums, warts and all. Yes, you get a lot of hating and silly debates, but you also get a lot of positive feedback and shared enjoyment. Since I almost never watch anime with anyone in my social circles, it was nice to be "among fans" when Macross Frontier was airing. Plus, the forums gave me access to all kind of information for my website and was thus I could use that information to help other fans stay up to speed. All in all, it was a rather enjoyable and unique experience. I'd never followed a new anime series like this before.

I'm totally agree with you on that, the interaction you got on the weekly basis broadcast is a very good thing, I'm still remember the WTF-1 for example

On the other hand you got the thing I do two weeks after the show ends, I put all the episodes on a laptop, bring a data show from the office an saw all the show on a weekend, but then you know when press the fast forward button

[Killer Robot]

Actually, I must say that I really enjoyed watching Macross Frontier during broadcast and interacting on the forums, warts and all. Yes, you get a lot of hating and silly debates, but you also get a lot of positive feedback and shared enjoyment. Since I almost never watch anime with anyone in my social circles, it was nice to be "among fans" when Macross Frontier was airing. Plus, the forums gave me access to all kind of information for my website and was thus I could use that information to help other fans stay up to speed. All in all, it was a rather enjoyable and unique experience. I'd never followed a new anime series like this before.

Oh, I got some of that. Just from a more limited sort of forum, leading to a bit more signal/noise ratio. And after the show aired and I came here I caught up on all the old and new discussion threads, learning a lot more perspectives and things I needed to go back and look at again. I've had some experiences where I've followed an ongoing story, if not an anime, blow by blow on a dedicated fandom board and read the detailed speculation and commentary as it developed: all in all, I've found it an interesting and revealing but in many ways negative approach that surrounds me with overly passionate opinions and unfulfilled predictions about a half-finished story. I think I'm happier having done my real time reading about Frontier on one thread of a non-Macross board rather than on somewhere more focused about it, then come here for the in depth after the end.

[Gubaba]

Oh, I got some of that. Just from a more limited sort of forum, leading to a bit more signal/noise ratio. And after the show aired and I came here I caught up on all the old and new discussion threads, learning a lot more perspectives and things I needed to go back and look at again. I've had some experiences where I've followed an ongoing story, if not an anime, blow by blow on a dedicated fandom board and read the detailed speculation and commentary as it developed: all in all, I've found it an interesting and revealing but in many ways negative approach that surrounds me with overly passionate opinions and unfulfilled predictions about a half-finished story. I think I'm happier having done my real time reading about Frontier on one thread of a non-Macross board rather than on somewhere more focused about it, then come here for the in depth after the end.

I can see that...like Mr. March, this was the first time I'd ever followed a series in this way (I kinda/sorta did it with MacZero here, but I had dial-up at that time and couldn't download any of the episodes, so I was going with HK bootlegs, which came out a few weeks after the episode's release. As such, I was already way behind the thread by the time I got the DVD).

In a way, it was nice, because none of my friends in real life were following the series, so at least I could talk about with others, and in a lot of ways it did help build my enthusiasm.

A lot of the overly negative people bugged me at the time, and a lot of the more "out-there" theories had me shaking my head (Remember when a few people were saying that they saw a human figure inside the Vajra that reawakened in Episode 5...?).

But once the shipping wars spilled over into MW, I found myself wanting more and more to watch the series by myself. But I kept coming back, because I wanted to hear what people were saying, and share what I was thinking.

All in all, it was interesting...but I'm not sure I'd want to go through it all again.

[Nexx Stalker]

I can see that...like Mr. March, this was the first time I'd ever followed a series in this way (I kinda/sorta did it with MacZero here, but I had dial-up at that time and couldn't download any of the episodes, so I was going with HK bootlegs, which came out a few weeks after the episode's release. As such, I was already way behind the thread by the time I got the DVD).

In a way, it was nice, because none of my friends in real life were following the series, so at least I could talk about with others, and in a lot of ways it did help build my enthusiasm.

A lot of the overly negative people bugged me at the time, and a lot of the more "out-there" theories had me shaking my head (Remember when a few people were saying that they saw a human figure inside the Vajra that reawakened in Episode 5...?).

But once the shipping wars spilled over into MW, I found myself wanting more and more to watch the series by myself. But I kept coming back, because I wanted to hear what people were saying, and share what I was thinking.

All in all, it was interesting...but I'm not sure I'd want to go through it all again.

Same here. It was the first time I watched an original series as it happened, and I could'nt help coming here just after every episode. It was strange, fun and frustrating at the same time. An unusual expereince, but I won't do it again, I think.

On a side note, having to wait a week or so between episodes made my mind conjure up theories and expectations that in most cases were frustrated in the next episodes, so I think that watching the series when all the episodes are already released could be a much more satisfying experience.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Having watched a lot of shows as they air or at least with gaps in between episodes, i can definitely say that it changes things. It gives time to reflect on things, ponder where they're going, and even lose interest for a time. As I've said elsewhere, I'm sure the people that watch certain things in rapid succession never knew the torment a cliffhanger ending with a 4 month conclusion wait can do to stir things up. In a way, it's better to watch in one go, and it's better not to in others. One seems to develop a more intrinsic relationship with a series watched over a few months and discussed with other people. Though I'm sort of sure some problems I have with Frontier wouldn't exist had I not had a week or more to contemplate them and hear fans describe characters that actually didn't exist.

Though I rarely get to marathon much, and even then I usually only watch a few at a time, so I guess I'm a "watch in real time" sort of person. It's all a crap shoot really, highly dependant on what you do with the time and who you talk to. I'm not that huge on Frontier now as when airing, but talking in these threads, seeing cosplay, and listening to the occasional song keeps it going. Doing those things while the series was airing, learning a little more each go probably attached me more to the show than simply marathoning it and moving on might have.

[Swampstorm]

Well, the "Ohnogi question" will be settled once and for all soon. But putting it aside for a moment, he seems to be, thanks to Shaloom's notes, a convenient place to focus whatever feelings you have about Sheryl or Ranka, and how they ended up.

More specifically, Ohnogi and Kawamori have been reduced to symbols of Sheryl and Ranka, respectively. A part of me is curious about how the tone of this piece would change if Kawamori and Ohnogi's roles were switched.

Anyway, my point is that external factors can alter your view of any story. With Frontier, I was enjoying Sheryl's character the best, until some particularly obnoxious Sheryl fans showed up here, hurling insults at anyone who disagreed with them that Ranka was worthless. Immediately, I became more of a Ranka fan, and didn't WANT Alto and Sheryl to end up together, simply because I don't like the idea of internet tough guys getting what they want.

That's a fairly accurate picture, but there's a slight difference here. In the example you provide, you describe how external factors frame your viewing of the series. This thread is an example of the reverse: we're looking at how a viewing of the series can frame your perception of external content (in this case, the interview). This reading of the interview, with Ohnogi and Kawamori framed in terms of the OP's perceptions of Sheryl and Ranka, is what turns it into a character rant.

On an unrelated note: there's nothing inherently wrong with shipping, so long as you take it with a grain of salt. This applies to the onlookers who get frustrated with it as much as it does the people who actively participate in it.

Just a quick note, Mary Sues, while have been given a name as a result of fan fiction are in no way shape or form limited to that format. They existed long before, and shall exist long after, I remember reading years back about the purported first Mary Sue, I think it was a novel wherin a cute little six year old girl helped a village, could do no wrong, was loved by all, and eventually dies of a disease, to be mourned forevermore by those she left behind. It was original work, yet the character had most of the trappings of the Mary Sue trope.

Actually, the first Mary Sue was an ACC published as part of a Star Trek fanzine in the 70s. It's not a novel, but rather a very short fanfic: at best it's a 30 second read. The point being parodied is not that the character is perfect (she ultimately dies in the end, after all), but rather the way in which the character is sold to the reader (when she dies, she's mourned by all). This is where the talk of authenticity comes in: the ACC, an unofficial, fan created character, is elevated above the official (and by extension, authentic) characters in the series.

While this concept has been simpified down along the lines of "an annoyingly perfect character" courtesy of sites such as Wikipedia and TvTropes (since when was deconstruction defined as "subverting a genre"?) it still carries that theme of authenticity with it. It's hardly surprising, then, that the OP makes reference to Ohnogi with phrases such as "A fan that knows the director is like a computer programmer with a screwdriver," or describing his writing as "bad fanfiction"; the association with fandom is used here too in order to imply that the latter half of the story was somehow unauthentic. This, in turn, leads the OP to suggest how things "ought" to have turned out. Why not fight fanfiction with fanfiction?

It is rather premature to heap blame on someone without much known. The criticism may have disingenuous origins, but a lot of keen observations can still be culled from it. I also wouldn't write some of FV's "mary sue" bits as simply being bitter at how some characters wound up. It might not be to that level, but a lot of characters wound up having far less impact than they should've, particularly Alto. Heck, Michel sort of got reduced to a mere plot device in the end.

To be sure, which is why the criticisms heaped on Ohnogi stood out as unusual from the outset.

While I'm not in a position to analyse any potential deception in the source material, I was referring more to the way in which even that source material was misrepresented. I don't think that the term "observation" applies here, as it seems to connote an objectivity that nobody in this thread actually has.

That being said, I wonder: who gets to decide how much importance a character "should" really have? Perhaps someone who's objective?

[bishopcruz]

Actually, the first Mary Sue was an ACC published as part of a Star Trek fanzine in the 70s. It's not a novel, but rather a very short fanfic: at best it's a 30 second read. The point being parodied is not that the character is perfect (she ultimately dies in the end, after all), but rather the way in which the character is sold to the reader (when she dies, she's mourned by all). This is where the talk of authenticity comes in: the ACC, an unofficial, fan created character, is elevated above the official (and by extension, authentic) characters in the series.

While this concept has been simpified down along the lines of "an annoyingly perfect character" courtesy of sites such as Wikipedia and TvTropes (since when was deconstruction defined as "subverting a genre"?) it still carries that theme of authenticity with it. It's hardly surprising, then, that the OP makes reference to Ohnogi with phrases such as "A fan that knows the director is like a computer programmer with a screwdriver," or describing his writing as "bad fanfiction"; the association with fandom is used here too in order to imply that the latter half of the story was somehow unauthentic. This, in turn, leads the OP to suggest how things "ought" to have turned out. Why not fight fanfiction with fanfiction?

Mmm... yes I know that's where the character type originally got its name, as well as its definition, but the character type had existed before, this paper talks about 19th century Mary-Sues. Remember the original ACC Mary Sue from that story was a parody of characters that had existed before.

It's also a fairly convenient way to get across an image of a character type as well. Someone who is just a little 'too' special for the universe in which they exist. Since the author creates the universe, its far harder to have characters that seem out of place among the cast, but it does happen.

If you'd like to discuss this more, PM me, as I don't want to derail the thread further.

Not much else to disagree on though, can't say that i agreed much with the OP.

[Gubaba]

That's a fairly accurate picture, but there's a slight difference here. In the example you provide, you describe how external factors frame your viewing of the series. This thread is an example of the reverse: we're looking at how a viewing of the series can frame your perception of external content (in this case, the interview). This reading of the interview, with Ohnogi and Kawamori framed in terms of the OP's perceptions of Sheryl and Ranka, is what turns it into a character rant.

We're getting into strange chicken-and-egg questions with this...I suspect that the interview *MAY* have been fabricated (or at least tweaked) in order to diss Ranka and her fans. Obviously, I can't prove that...at least, not yet.

On an unrelated note: there's nothing inherently wrong with shipping, so long as you take it with a grain of salt. This applies to the onlookers who get frustrated with it as much as it does the people who actively participate in it.

You're absolutely right, I know. But I can only be insulted so many times ("You're on drugs. " "You don't understand adult relationships. " "You clearly won't listen to anyone else's viewpoints. " And this was the response to my trying to be NEUTRAL!) before I start to dislike the person insulting me. And then I want them to be unhappy with the outcome of the series just so they'll stop being obnoxious and just GO AWAY (which, as it turns out, is exactly what happened, minus a little bit of whining and crying and bitching and "Alto was saluting Sheryl ONLY" and "WORST ENDING EVER!" nonsense).

*whew* Can you tell I'm still a mite annoyed by this?

[Mercurial Morpheus]

To be sure, which is why the criticisms heaped on Ohnogi stood out as unusual from the outset.

While I'm not in a position to analyse any potential deception in the source material, I was referring more to the way in which even that source material was misrepresented. I don't think that the term "observation" applies here, as it seems to connote an objectivity that nobody in this thread actually has.

That being said, I wonder: who gets to decide how much importance a character "should" really have? Perhaps someone who's objective?

I was mostly referring to his character analysis, which wasn't just influenced by his views on Ohnogi, mostly because I'm inclined to agree with some of them. You also can't fault an opinion for not being objective. There's really no such thing as an objective opinion, as they're bias by default. Oh sure, one can view things from multiple angles, but stated opinions and observations are still innately limited by one's own point of view and experience.

As for the last line, I was agreeing with his views on Alto mainly. Last I checked, he was the male lead. Does one have to be part of the production staff to be of the opinion that maybe he didn't play the role the male lead usually does at the end? I could see you waving that argument if he were discussing Klan or Michel, but the male lead? Come on. I think you can cut a little slack there.

I side with Gubaba on just why shipping can get out of hand. Though might I add the idealizing and villianizing as well. I saw both girls being described as characters that I certainly didn't see on screen. I could not stand the concept of loving a character that didn't actually exist. Not to mention the opus I read on how body language called the victor in a love triangle that is canon stalemated. talk about rose colored glasses. There's nothing inharently wrong with thatr though, as long as it's not stated as fact, which it sadly often is. Your girl can do no wrong in a shippers eyes, criticizing one for flaws the other had as well. It cheapens both characters immensely. Sheryl being aggressive would by Ranka being selfish, Ranka being determined would be Sheryl being a bitch and so on. Hell, I loved how some people changed why they loved Sheryl as she progressed from her strength to being sympathetic. it's one thing to love a character, it's another to idealized her just to win arguments and make the other look stupid for not loving her.

[Gubaba]

I side with Gubaba on just why shipping can get out of hand. Though might I add the idealizing and villianizing as well. I saw both girls being described as characters that I certainly didn't see on screen. I could not stand the concept of loving a character that didn't actually exist. Not to mention the opus I read on how body language called the victor in a love triangle that is canon stalemated. talk about rose colored glasses. There's nothing inharently wrong with thatr though, as long as it's not stated as fact, which it sadly often is. Your girl can do no wrong in a shippers eyes, criticizing one for flaws the other had as well. It cheapens both characters immensely. Sheryl being aggressive would by Ranka being selfish, Ranka being determined would be Sheryl being a bitch and so on. Hell, I loved how some people changed why they loved Sheryl as she progressed from her strength to being sympathetic. it's one thing to love a character, it's another to idealized her just to win arguments and make the other look stupid for not loving her.

I think you're being too fair over all...from personal experience, on MW, I never saw any Ranka shippers get anywhere near as obnoxious as their Sheryl counterparts. Pulling little details out of their rears that "prove" Alto chose Ranka? Yes. Insulting Sheryl and anyone who liked her? No.

Makes me glad I chose early on to be a Nanase fan...

Anyway, since we're getting all meta and talking about mirrors reflecting mirrors, I've been reading "Dreaming Prelude~My Fair Minmay" and the first story in it is by, yep, Hiroshi Ohnogi.

And all while translating it, I've been wondering what Final Vegeta would think as he read it, and I think it would bolster his claims. He keeps Hikaru and Minmay separate (excpet for a brief phone call, where she cancels a date with him - which itself is from the show) and ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE in Minmay's school nominates her for the Miss Macross Contest...even her teacher. I think Ohnogi's trying to provide a rationale for how Minmay beat Jamis...but accusations of Mary Sue-ism could easily be thrown at that scene.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I think you're being too fair over all...from personal experience, on MW, I never saw any Ranka shippers get anywhere near as obnoxious as their Sheryl counterparts. Pulling little details out of their rears that "prove" Alto chose Ranka? Yes. Insulting Sheryl and anyone who liked her? No.

Actually, that's still a by product of it all. I'm merely trying to not show a bias (though is it really a bias to merely state what one has seen if it really is that slanted?). Old habits die hard. I've mostly seen Sheryl shippers, but I know if I merely say Sheryl this and Sheryl that that it would just cause me more pain. Quite simply I'd just get labeled as Ranka biased, because that's apparently a bad thing whereas having a Sheryl bias is perfectly acceptable because she's just so win and awesome. Though to be honest, I can't really say I like Ranka all that much over Sheryl, I just don't think she's the awful character she's made out as (I will NEVER understand the whole traitor moniker, you just can't come to that conclusion out of anything but bias or really stringent loyalty to thinking inside the box), and actually a lot more consistently written that Sheryl was. You have no idea how hard it was to pull out a Ranka-ist example. Not because I was for Ranka, but because I simply rarely saw them as most Ranka fans just retreat into a corner (Sheryl finds have no problem providing examples). Though there were plenty of insults thrown to Sheryl, at least according to her fans (namely the bitch description). Sheryl just seems to attract that kind of person. It's rather telling when at Asuki the Sheryl thread is just full of people going gaga over how good "Sheryl Saotome" sounds, while the Ranka thread is full over people describing her as stagnant and annoying. Thankfully, my main connection to Asuki at this point is that I apparently started the official DYRL thread. Go me. Oh, and how everyone loves her except the non-true macross fans (no really, someone stated that apparently Ranka is more popular out of the fandom and that only we know better). Did you know that the Chinese love Sheryl and despise Ranka?

So yeah, I've basically seen Sheryl described as little miss perfect, Kawamori's gift to anime, THE reason to watch Frontier (she makes the show), and Alto's obvious true love (after all he saluted her and showed concern over her health and career, he merely put his life on the line for Ranka. All the signs are there, that touch, that look, that kiss she often forced on him). I've often seen her praised for having qualities that Ranka was derided for. It's all fine to love a character, but it usually included cuts to Ranka to make Sheryl look even more perfect, which is messed up. "Ranka's selfish". So is Sheryl. "Ranka's immature" So is Sheryl. On the flip side, Sheryl's a bitch. So is Ranka in about as many actual times. Personally, I don't hate Sheryl. She's a somewhat fun, if somewhat inconsistent character for me. She's pretty much on par with the rest of the cast and is in no way the great character she's often touted as. She's fairly generic if you ask me, and like TV Alucard, I just don't get why she's so hailed (though she's got him beat in being an actual character). People act like they've never seen a high and mighty character brought down a notch (boy do I remember what happened when I said I wasn't all that moved by her breakdown scene, as byproduct of my early issues with her, I'm sure). On a side note, I sometimes wonder how much chara design plays into things. Of course it should be pointed out that not all Sheryl fans are like this (I shouldn't have to point that out, but I know I should anyway). A lot just like her for some reason, and that's fine by me. Hell, I know one that cosplays as RANKA. Wrap your mind around that one.

On a side note, where does one find theories of how Ranka "won"? That line was almost expressly in reference to a blog I'd read where apparently body language counts for more than actual dialogue. Basically the whole screen time argument. I'm mildly curious to hear the reverse.

There, you happy Gubaba? I'm probably blackmarked now for being blind to Queen Sheryl's Godliness. I'm sure my Asuki account is being firebombed with hate mail, or being deactivated out right. My opinions have ceased validity because I don't drool over her strawberry-blond, ball-breaking hotness. Happy now?!!! Huh!? HUH!?

Maybe I should just join David at the Church of Grace (I like how that sounds actually). I'm technically a charter member anyway, just not as devout.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Gubaba]

There, you happy Gubaba? I'm probably blackmarked now for being blind to Queen Sheryl's Godliness. I'm sure my Asuki account is being firebombed with hate mail, or being deactivated out right. My opinions have ceased validity because I don't drool over her strawberry-blond, ball-breaking hotness. Happy now?!!! Huh!? HUH!?

It's a first step. Now I just have to browbeat you into submission for not loving Nanase above all else.

And yes, as you say, not all (I'd even go with "most") Sheryl fans aren't like that. Hell, I think Sheryl's awesome, personally, especially in Episode 20. And her path to find purpose in the second half of the show (in the face of impending death) was quite compelling.

I've seen very little "proof" for a supposed Ranka Ending...mostly a couple of people saying that they think Ranka and Alto hit it off better. It was only a couple of people, though.

But it's kind of funny that some of the more rabid Sheryl fanatics were saying that the ending of the show changed because all the Ranka fans would go apesh*t...but then they say that the Ranka fans are so small in number...

[bishopcruz]

Sheryl fan here who can admit that the others are pretty much batshit crazy at times. I never did understand the whole traitor angle, either, it seems really odd. What I did end up liking about Sheryl more from about her first appearance was the fact that she actually seemed to be a competent, professional singer, who was good at what she did, and didn't take much guff. That in and of itself was can be a rarity in anime. What cemented her was the jotting down lyrics on those panties. That was a nice, realistic touch, a LOT of writers and singers carry a pad around for just such a reason.

Ranka, again, to be fair, I had it in for since episode 1 as well. I really, really hate uber Moe for moe's sake, and I felt that that was what she was. Going by archetypes, it really is one of the harder ones to pull off and have me in any way like the character, so props all around to the writing staff for not having me hating her by the end of the series. But the problems I found with her I think were inherent in her character type, and that was one of the big stumbling blocks for the writers.

Of the female teens, only Nanase (Sorry Gubaba) had a less compelling characterization. Klan who I expected to also loathe, got very compelling by the end, and well, Sheryl has been discussed to death. The problem is, the moe archetype had very few places to go before it becomes something else. Ranka couldn't significantly mature because if she ceases being child-like she's out of her specific character trope. Not to mention, I can't ever think of an anime where when there was a cute childlike character paired with a self assured, guarded one (think Hikaru/Madoka, or hell even Minmay/Misa) that the more compelling characterization has come from the former. Minmay didn't become REALLY interesting until she was able to leave her airheaded and naive side behind. Sadly for Ranka, she never really had the chance.

I think that's why a lot of the Ohnogi "interviews" rang so true with a lot of fans. If I were to read an interview that said hey, y'know, we really wanted the Alto/Ranka thing to work out better, but couldn't make it happen during production, I'd probably buy it, because there are sign of it there, just as there were signs of the sidlining of Ranka, should you choose to see it that way.

As for the shipping, I think there is ample, mainly visual language cues that very much hinted that Alto would have ended with her. I was pretty much in dread of it for a good portion of the series, chiefly because a) on the rare occasions I do ship, I tend to lose and b) Many of Sheryl's scenes in the final episodes were written, IMO, very ambiguously. Of course, had it ended up in a Ranka ending, I would have been a little cheezed because, while the visual cues were there, and might I add in spades in certain episodes, the story cues were simply not.

As far as majority on a forum jumping on a minority and calling them idiots, not exclusive to shipping, or hell any other forum. You want to see it at its worst, find a politics thread in the off topic section of any anime or gaming related board, drop an opinion that is not just to the left of Mao, and see how quickly you get jumped on. I think penny arcade once had a comic about it, it was an equation like opinion + anonymity = apeface or something like that.

[Gubaba]

Of the female teens, only Nanase (Sorry Gubaba) had a less compelling characterization.

'Sokay. I don't like her for her, as you call it, "characterization."

After all, she spent the last six episodes in a coma, and I still adored her...

As far as majority on a forum jumping on a minority and calling them idiots, not exclusive to shipping, or hell any other forum. You want to see it at its worst, find a politics thread in the off topic section of any anime or gaming related board, drop an opinion that is not just to the left of Mao, and see how quickly you get jumped on. I think penny arcade once had a comic about it, it was an equation like opinion + anonymity = apeface or something like that.

Why do think MacrossWorld has a "no politics" rule?

Still...THAT, I can understand. Politics is important. Things like the economy and health care are burning issues. "Which Macross girl is hotter?" doesn't even come close...

[bishopcruz]

'Sokay. I don't like her for her, as you call it, "characterization."

After all, she spent the last six episodes in a coma, and I still adored her...

And here I was expecting you to defend her very large er... characterization.

Why do think MacrossWorld has a "no politics" rule?

Still...THAT, I can understand. Politics is important. Things like the economy and health care are burning issues. "Which Macross girl is hotter?" doesn't even come close...

Clearly you aren't a real anime fan then. I mean if you can't understand that Alto's love life trumps everything, you may as well turn in your card.

[mike_s_6]

But it's kind of funny that some of the more rabid Sheryl fanatics were saying that the ending of the show changed because all the Ranka fans would go apesh*t...but then they say that the Ranka fans are so small in number...

I actually kind of see where this impression is coming from. In Japan, Ranka is more popular, but in foreign forums, based on polls and the like, Sheryl is usually the more loved character. I've asked around Chinese forums too (well just out of curiosity since I was in contact with some of their English speakers...), and they said that the fans like Sheryl more. So, the question those shippers are asking is, does the staff want to please the Japanese, who undeniably are a very important group of fans, or please the foreigners? Not that I believe this affected anything, nor would I defend it. It's only a personal an observation, and I'm also very much weirded out how people make conclusions out of it. On both sides of the ship! It was interesting though watching the shipping happen, I was in Animesuki when it happened

Edited April 29, 2009 by mike_s_6

[Sir Galahad®]

Not really, Japanese Magazines such as newtype rate Sheryl as one of the top female leads in Anime. Also there was a popularity poll on who is the top female in MF. Sheryl topped that two, with ranka, alto (hehe) and bobby next. Times have changed I guess. They are moving from the damsel in distress to the independent woman stereotype. Also Homosexuality, which was frowned upon in Japan a few years back have been slowly gaining acceptance.

[bishopcruz]

Actually I'm pretty sure that Sheryl is still more popular in Japan, she is still in the Newtype top 10 character polls, Ranka is not. Now I think that people over here end up HATING Ranka more than the Japanese, but there are many reasons for that, shipping being the primary one. That being said, had SDFM ended at episode 25 (sans the recaps) as it was intended to, we would have been left in much the same boat as MacF. It could just be that Kawamori doesn't like a lot of resolution to couples, at least in Macross. I mean, hell, we've actually only gotten a real romantic resolution that doesn't involve the death, in SDFM. I think the endings work to the series' detriment, others disagree.

Again, it's just hard for me to imagine him going gung ho for a Sheryl OR Ranka ending, and then changing it at the last minute to please fans. Likely the ending had probably been set in stone for a while, it was just poor execution on the relationship angle that left a lot of people going WTF?

BTW the Mac7 ending kinda had similar issues with me, so it could easily be a trend that Kawamori has.

Edit: Damn you Galahad, beat me to a lot of it.

Anyway quick note:

Also Homosexuality, which was frowned upon in Japan a few years back have been slowly gaining acceptance.

Um what exactly do you mean by that? Homosexuality has generally had a fairly tacit acceptance in Japanese culture for quite some time, but it's place in pop culture tends to less than nuanced. I mean, currently in anime you have the Male as female-stand ins that are the bread and butter of Shonen-Ai, and then you have the 'Gay is funny!' characters. Bobby was awesome, but his homosexuality was played entirely for laughs, his inclusion as one of the 'girls' in the polls kinda shows this same bias. Bobby is a joke, and meant to be taken as such.

That's not particularly new either, hell, I can't think of a non Shojo story wherein the gay character hasn't more or less been played for laughs.

Edited April 29, 2009 by bishopcruz

[Sir Galahad®]

I heard somewhere that the supposed ending for Chou jikku yousai Macross was Hikaru Flying in his Valkyrie with the two females on the ground.... Sounds familiar....

I guess they do that for more sequels....

But sometimes the story needs completion for everybody to be at least satisfied, especially when there are lots of character development. Simply defeating the enemy isn't enough.

Macross plus had it's relationships resolved as well...

I guess they wanted to milk the M7 stories that's why they had an open ending.... I mean they had the encore, and the dynamite seven after...

[Sir Galahad®]

Um what exactly do you mean by that? Homosexuality has generally had a fairly tacit acceptance in Japanese culture for quite some time, but it's place in pop culture tends to less than nuanced. I mean, currently in anime you have the Male as female-stand ins that are the bread and butter of Shonen-Ai, and then you have the 'Gay is funny!' characters. Bobby was awesome, but his homosexuality was played entirely for laughs, his inclusion as one of the 'girls' in the polls kinda shows this same bias. Bobby is a joke, and meant to be taken as such.

That's not particularly new either, hell, I can't think of a non Shojo story wherein the gay character hasn't more or less been played for laughs.

Maybe that was just my experience at the workplace when I was assigned there (I'm in I.T.) a few years back. When I was there they don't tend to be taken seriously that time.

Going back to Macross F... I think the series was a bit rushed... 5 additional episodes would have helped... I guess they wanted everything to be 25.

[Gubaba]

I heard somewhere that the supposed ending for Chou jikku yousai Macross was Hikaru Flying in his Valkyrie with the two females on the ground.... Sounds familiar....

:blink:

Where did you hear that?

[bishopcruz]

I've heard that too, though to be fair I can't remember if ti was a credible source or not. I thought there was some stuff other than the liner notes that mentioned that the ending of Love Drifts Away was what was originally intended. Though I think some of the more embellished stories of that are in Shaloom's liner notes.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Bishopcruz, Love Drifts Away was never meant to be the original ending. SDF Macross was not written as a 25 episode series initially. I think you're a touch confused on it's history. The show was set to end at Love Drifts Away once, but that was a compromise when the series had it's episode count extremely cut. It was going to be longer then 36 (49?). Then it got cut to 27 (which is why they added the recaps, and why LDF seems so final), so they cut the postwar stuff and some other things during SW1. About halfway through, their ratings skyrocketed, and the show was extended to 36 episodes, allowing them to reinsert some of what was initially cut, namely the aftermath. I've heard rumors that Macross 7 has some of the other ideas that didn't make it (like Max and Milia's breakup I suppose), though I don't know if it's true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to take DYRL as proof that Macross was always meant to end at Space War 1. Oh, and Sheryl my be in the top 10 on Newtype, but have you seen the rest of the list? It's not exactly a complete who's who of fantastic characters most of the time. Feldt Grace is at 10, and she wasn't even an actual character for just about the entire season. With voters like that, It's basically tantamount to her winning a beauty contest. Ranka tends to stay close in other polls.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[VF5SS]

My only problem with Ohnogi's involvement that he should have come up with a better way for Sheryl to cheat death. Especially since they spent so much time establishing that she was going to die.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Supposedly that was Kawmori's plan. Ohnogi wanted her cured a lot sooner. Though that's from FV's post.

I was even saying from the moment she left that Ranka would return with the cure. I also find it amusing that the haters never even gave her credit for that one.

[bishopcruz]

Bishopcruz, Love Drifts Away was never meant to be the original ending. SDF Macross was not written as a 25 episode series initially. I think you're a touch confused on it's history. The show was set to end at Love Drifts Away once, but that was a compromise when the series had it's episode count extremely cut. It was going to be longer then 36 (49?). Then it got cut to 27 (which is why they added the recaps, and why LDF seems so final), so they cut the postwar stuff and some other things during SW1. About halfway through, their ratings skyrocketed, and the show was extended to 36 episodes, allowing them to reinsert some of what was initially cut, namely the aftermath. I've heard rumors that Macross 7 has some of the other ideas that didn't make it (like Max and Milia's breakup I suppose), though I don't know if it's true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to take DYRL as proof that Macross was always meant to end at Space War 1. Oh, and Sheryl my be in the top 10 on Newtype, but have you seen the rest of the list? It's not exactly a complete who's who of fantastic characters most of the time. Feldt Grace is at 10, and she wasn't even an actual character for just about the entire season. With voters like that, It's basically tantamount to her winning a beauty contest. Ranka tends to stay close in other polls.

I'm not saying that Ranka isn't popular in Japan, just again, Sheryl does seem to be top of the heap. It's also kinda odd to imply that the lists where Sheryl is ahead of Ranka are not as good as other ones because they're more superficial or what have you. She really is the most popular character from the show.

Ok, from what you're saying about the original SDFM kinda contradicts everything I have heard as far as how things were once production started. The way they were plotting the for a while pretty much set up 25 to be the finale, I think the show was stronger due to the fact that it WASN'T, as I've said before. It got to 27 when they added Global Report and Phantasm, becaue by that time they knew they were going to have to churn out 9 more episodes, and they weren't ready for them. Or at least, again, that was my understanding.

I had also heard (and it's plain to see), that the Max and Milia thing was rushed, though in the end I think it added to the charm of the two of them being frakken crazy, and teenagers.

Edit: Also, I know that there's a lot of info in the Ohnogi interviews, but its probably best to kill speculation about the hows and whys revealed in them until they're confirmed one way or the other, which will be soon.

Edited April 29, 2009 by bishopcruz

[Gubaba]

Bishopcruz, Love Drifts Away was never meant to be the original ending. SDF Macross was not written as a 25 episode series initially. I think you're a touch confused on it's history. The show was set to end at Love Drifts Away once, but that was a compromise when the series had it's episode count extremely cut. It was going to be longer then 36 (49?). Then it got cut to 27 (which is why they added the recaps, and why LDF seems so final), so they cut the postwar stuff and some other things during SW1. About halfway through, their ratings skyrocketed, and the show was extended to 36 episodes, allowing them to reinsert some of what was initially cut, namely the aftermath. I've heard rumors that Macross 7 has some of the other ideas that didn't make it (like Max and Milia's breakup I suppose), though I don't know if it's true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to take DYRL as proof that Macross was always meant to end at Space War 1. Oh, and Sheryl my be in the top 10 on Newtype, but have you seen the rest of the list? It's not exactly a complete who's who of fantastic characters most of the time. Feldt Grace is at 10, and she wasn't even an actual character for just about the entire season. With voters like that, It's basically tantamount to her winning a beauty contest. Ranka tends to stay close in other polls.

Ok, from what you're saying about the original SDFM kinda contradicts everything I have heard as far as how things were once production started. The way they were plotting the for a while pretty much set up 25 to be the finale, I think the show was stronger due to the fact that it WASN'T, as I've said before. It got to 27 when they added Global Report and Phantasm, becaue by that time they knew they were going to have to churn out 9 more episodes, and they weren't ready for them. Or at least, again, that was my understanding.

I had also heard (and it's plain to see), that the Max and Milia thing was rushed, though in the end I think it added to the charm of the two of them being frakken crazy, and teenagers.

Both of you are kinda right...

From the AnimEigo liner notes for Ep. 23:

When Macross finally debuted after over two years of preproduction, the staffers only planned for 23 episodes. Two months after the premiere, the sponsors greenlighted an extension to 36 episodes. (This episode would have aired earlier in the original plan since several filler episodes were inserted into the series after the extension was approved.)

And for Ep. 27:

When the series premiered, the staff planned this episode as the final of 23 episodes, the result of budget cuts during preproduction. However, the series surprised the sponsor with its success during the first two months, and the sponsor approved an extension to a full 36 episodes. This episode moved from number 23 to 27 by extending the storyline and adding two episodes of recycled footage.

Now, IIRC, the Robotech Art 1 (which may or may not be the most reliable source) said that the series was originally going to be 39 episodes, and then was cut down, and the story was crammed to fit. When the series was extended, the creators had already mapped out the story as a shorter series. They extended some of the episodes (and added the two clip shows), but the decision to do the Post-SWI episodes was defnitely an afterthought.

I may be wrong about some of that, since I haven't looked at Robotech Art 1 for about twenty years, but I'm pretty sure that that was the gist of it.

[mike_s_6]

Actually I'm pretty sure that Sheryl is still more popular in Japan, she is still in the Newtype top 10 character polls, Ranka is not.

Those are the current Newtype polls. Those when the series was still airing painted a different picture, and that was when those "Ranka is more popular in Japan!" comments came up. And well I, was taken by surprise when Sheryl got on top after the series aired. That was frankly, something I did not expect.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I'm not saying that Ranka isn't popular in Japan, just again, Sheryl does seem to be top of the heap. It's also kinda odd to imply that the lists where Sheryl is ahead of Ranka are not as good as other ones because they're more superficial or what have you. She really is the most popular character from the show.

I didn't say lists with her on top are superficial, you make it sound like I'm trying to discredit her. My bip on Ranka was in response to yours about how she didn't place here (which is actually dead wrong as she was number three with CC separating them in the March poll), and I had remembered her always close behind on the one's I'd seen. I only looked it back up after the post. It was never to imply that polls with her losing were of lesser value and you insult me for impling that I do. I think they all are rather stupid. I just think that these lists should be taken with a grain of salt, and are essentially beauty contests, not gauges of great character. It's a flavor of the month poll, nothing more. Hence my example of how a pretty much awful character like Feldt is in the top ten despite doing next to NOTHING for twenty five straight episodes. She's likeable,even I like her, but it gives a clue as to just what kind of poll it is. Wow, Sheryl beat her. Big whoop. So yes, its a gauge that Sheryl's popular, but with whom, and why should we care?

Thanks for the clarification, Gubaba. It was simply my understanding that LDF was only made the end after they had the series cut down. I'm sure the last nine weren't what was intended, but obviously they had to adapt something, and I still think the series is stronger for it. I'm all for ending the narrative at the proper high watermark, but if a story is still there, why not?

Edited May 1, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Renato]

I remember Macross Perfect Memory has several pages devoted to the original scenario and episode run-down for "Battle Fortress Megaroad" which was over 50 episodes or something, and I vaguely seem to remember that it did end at the "Love flows away" episode. I do not have the book with me, but I have the CBR file.... somewhere. Maybe someone with easier access can check it?

Both of you are kinda right...

From the AnimEigo liner notes for Ep. 23:

And for Ep. 27:

Now, IIRC, the Robotech Art 1 (which may or may not be the most reliable source) said that the series was originally going to be 39 episodes, and then was cut down, and the story was crammed to fit. When the series was extended, the creators had already mapped out the story as a shorter series. They extended some of the episodes (and added the two clip shows), but the decision to do the Post-SWI episodes was defnitely an afterthought.

I may be wrong about some of that, since I haven't looked at Robotech Art 1 for about twenty years, but I'm pretty sure that that was the gist of it.

[Gubaba]

I remember Macross Perfect Memory has several pages devoted to the original scenario and episode run-down for "Battle Fortress Megaroad" which was over 50 episodes or something, and I vaguely seem to remember that it did end at the "Love flows away" episode. I do not have the book with me, but I have the CBR file.... somewhere. Maybe someone with easier access can check it?

I only have the CBR file, as well, which is too small to read any kanji more complicated than six or seven strokes...but yeah, they give the 52 episode breakdown (very brief notes), the 48 episode breakdown (ditto), and the 39 episode breakdown (which is fuller). I can't quite tell what's going on in the first two, but the 39-Episode version has Max and Millia getting married in Episode 38, and the big battle in the final episode. After the big battle, it jumps forward fifteen years for I guess some kind of epilogue or something.

[bishopcruz]

Ok, been gone for a bit, RL and all.

I didn't say lists with her on top are superficial, you make it sound like I'm trying to discredit her. My bip on Ranka was in response to yours about how she didn't place here (which is actually dead wrong as she was number three with CC separating them in the March poll), and I had remembered her always close behind on the one's I'd seen. I only looked it back up after the post. It was never to imply that polls with her losing were of lesser value and you insult me for impling that I do. I think they all are rather stupid. I just think that these lists should be taken with a grain of salt, and are essentially beauty contests, not gauges of great character. It's a flavor of the month poll, nothing more. Hence my example of how a pretty much awful character like Feldt is in the top ten despite doing next to NOTHING for twenty five straight episodes. She's likeable,even I like her, but it gives a clue as to just what kind of poll it is. Wow, Sheryl beat her. Big whoop. So yes, its a gauge that Sheryl's popular, but with whom, and why should we care?

Ok, relax no real intent to offend, but the main argument that you were putting forth against the NT polls was that a lot of the characters on it sucked, which very well could be true, but they are POPULAR, which was my point. I'm not saying that Ranka isn't popular, she is, but in every poll I have seen since the end of the series, Sheryl is more popular. That's it, no real deep meaning or anything like that. Also, the March Poll had them close, but in April the gap widened, and Ranka did not place in the May poll at all, which is what I was talking about when I said Ranka didn't place. My wording was a little unclear, so I apologize. And again, that was my whole argument, and it was in response to a comment that basically said: "Ranka is more popular than Sheryl in Japan." This might have been the case in the past, but it isn't now, at least from every poll of the type I have seen.

And you can say you didn't mean to imply that the Newtype poll wasn't worth as much as other polls but this line speaks for itself:

With voters like that, It's basically tantamount to her winning a beauty contest. Ranka tends to stay close in other polls.

It just seems like you are downplaying some of Sheryl's popularity because you don't like her that much, as you have said yourself.

The beauty contest thing doesn't really work either, because if you look at say, the may 2009 poll, we have at least 5 moe character types that are there. Hell, C.C. from Code Geass (which I haven't seen) is often towards the top, and she is a young looking, green haired girl. We also have the main from Lucky Star, Haruhi and Yuku from Haruhi Suzumiya, and Furukawa from Clannad. It's not like the design type that is Ranka is discriminated against.

What do these polls say about the characters? Not much, other than popularity at any particular time, it fluctuates, as these things are wont to do. But it's probably the best we have to go by when it comes to which characters fans like more. Popularity is a fickle bitch, that's for damn sure, but again, the only reason we can, or should care as you put it is because the point came up in the discussion.

Unpopular characters can be more compelling than popular ones, and I wasn't trying to make the argument that Sheryl was a better character simply because she was popular. I stated the reasons I liked her better early on, and I'm not going to go over them again, but they are my taste. But again, the polls were only brought up to challenge the idea of Ranka being more popular than Sheryl in Japan, that's it.

Thanks for the clarification, Gubaba. It was simply my understanding that LDF was only made the end after they had the series cut down. I'm sure the last nine weren't what was intended, but obviously they had to adapt something, and I still think the series is stronger for it. I'm all for ending the narrative at the proper high watermark, but if a story is still there, why not?

Agree with you here. Though honestly I thought it was the time-skip that really helped. I do have a thing for series that actually progress over years. Also to the earlier points, I would have LOVED to have seen a longer courtship between Max and Miria, though I suppose it would have lost the whole Max is pretty much insane angle that I loved from SDFM.

Maybe Macross: The First will expand on it.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

No offense truly taken. Again that line was in response to your post saying she wasn't on it, and my memory of her usually always tagging along. I'd only seen the March poll, and hadn't even rechecked it at the time I responded. I wasn't even comparing the Newtype poll outright to others actually. Most of the ones I've seen people talk about ARE different Newtype polls. Pardon me for not looking up the latest before checking. So please take it with a grain of salt. ;;.

Also note that "beauty contest" doesn't always mean looks. I meant that they're simply like you put, popularity contests based on mostly superficial means. If we have a non character like Feldt in there, it's pretty much a given that as many people are voting for characters based on a quirk, personality type, or design, as much as they are actually giving thought to the process. Ranka actually was put down here quite a bit for being the "loli character" by the way. So any poll has to be taken with a grain of salt. It could be easily argued that Sheryl fans are just more likely to participate in them. After all, I've seen it argued that only Macross fans prefer Sheryl over Ranka, yet I personally have never seen it. That's not to say it's not true in that persons experience. Like I said, i don't really care who comes out on top, might've even argued it with the situation reversed, and a lot of the placed characters I myself love, but I mostly see these brought up as a "Look guys, the character we love other people love, that makes us better". So it irks me a bit. I ewas never trying to imply that that was your stance though. I don't mean to downplay Sheryl's popularity, I'm not delusional, but I am bewildered by it at times, particularly at the level some fans take it. I have mentioned that I wasn't wild about Ranka for a while too. Neither are really favorite characters of mine, though I'd probably pick Ranka if forced to choose as I felt she was handled better. It's actually quite unlike me as I usually swoon for characters like Sheryl, and basically illustrates how the story handling and fanbase can affect things personally.

As for the Macross notes, what pages are they on? I might be able to make some bigger scans if anyone wants a crack at them (provided I can do so without damaging the book).

Edited May 9, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Gubaba]

I remember Macross Perfect Memory has several pages devoted to the original scenario and episode run-down for "Battle Fortress Megaroad" which was over 50 episodes or something, and I vaguely seem to remember that it did end at the "Love flows away" episode. I do not have the book with me, but I have the CBR file.... somewhere. Maybe someone with easier access can check it?

As for the Macross notes, what pages are they on? I might be able to make some bigger scans if anyone wants a crack at them (provided I can do so without damaging the book).

No need...I finally broke down and bought the damn thing on Ebay last week (it's the US version from Books Nippan -no, it' not in English- and I got it for $21.50, which seemed fine to me).

And yes, the 39-Episode plan ends with "Love Drifts Away, but has an epilogue as they go into space, fifteen years later. But Max and Millia's sbplot seems like it would've gotten more development. They fall in love in episode 35, but wait until episode 38 to get married.

Oh, and the omnidirectional barrier destroys the Moon in episode 30.

[Nexx Stalker]

No need...I finally broke down and bought the damn thing on Ebay last week (it's the US version from Books Nippan -no, it' not in English- and I got it for $21.50, which seemed fine to me).

And yes, the 39-Episode plan ends with "Love Drifts Away, but has an epilogue as they go into space, fifteen years later. But Max and Millia's sbplot seems like it would've gotten more development. They fall in love in episode 35, but wait until episode 38 to get married.

Oh, and the omnidirectional barrier destroys the Moon in episode 30.

Does the 15 years later epilogue say something of interest? I'm curious!