Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Valkyrie Vol. 1

[Roy Focker]

Yeah even the Names of the 14 ARMD Carriers in the book matches the names for them in the MAT book.

[sketchley]

MAT book?? Full name please and thank you.

On here? http://macross.anime.net/production/print/first/index.html

[Gubaba]

MAT book?? Full name please and thank you.

On here? http://macross.anime.net/production/print/first/index.html

It's unofficial, so it's not in the Compendium.

It's this one:

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/dou_mat3extra.htm

[Project Phoenix]

Does anyone know exactly how canon this publication is? I'm noticing a lot of little details that are "significantly different" from other published sources.

For example:

Pg 079-080: the VF-1 is indicated as having thermonuclear turbine engines that go from 0 to Mach 2.5, which change to thermonuclear ramjet engines that go from Mach 2.5 to 7.2, which change to thermonuclear scramjet engines that start at mach 7.2, and finally thermonuclear rocket engines for out-of-atmosphere use. - the larger speeds being in excess of the mach 3.87 at 30,000 m that the book itself states on pg 020!

Pg 094-095: ARMD 01 to 14 were produced. Other sources state only 8+2 were produced.

Pg 117: what I think reads as until the VF-4G, the VF-4 couldn't change to battroid or gerwalk!

It's called retconning. You should know by now no fictional world created by man ever escape this fate.

I'm accepting this book's info as canon because SK approved it. That is until a newer publication supersedes it.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Project Phoenix

[azrael]

It's unofficial, so it's not in the Compendium.

It's this one:

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/dou_mat3extra.htm

In fact, that book is listed as the reference for the Master File book. So I doubt the canon of the Master File.

It's called retconning. You should know by now no fictional world created by man ever escape this fate.

I'm accepting this book's info as canon because SK approved it. That is until a newer publication supersedes it.

I won't. This whole book is based on a doushinji. So.... (Really, does Kawamori even look at this stuff anymore)

[Project Phoenix]

In fact, that book is listed as the reference for the Master File book. So I doubt the canon of the Master File.

I won't. This whole book is based on a doushinji. So.... (Really, does Kawamori even look at this stuff anymore)

Suit yourself. *Shrugs* Over the years anime info/technical/guide books etc. published will often introduce new materials to retcon stuff to cater to a new generation of fans or meet the changing fan demographic. The case of the horde of Gundam books will attest to that.

It is after all a fictional technical book for fans who enjoys nit-picking over the shape of the VF-1s nosecones or whether or not it has the correct amount of bolts and nuts during assembly. It's a rivet-counter's wet dream come true.

Canon or not, it's up to the individual until the Supreme Macross Deity decides to issue a final judgment. Then again, I know some of you fans will cry out and complain anyway.

[sketchley]

It's called retconning. You should know by now no fictional world created by man ever escape this fate.

I do.

The reason why I'm asking is that a) it contradicts information contained within itself and b) it contradicts information published concurrently in a different publication.

Therefore, the question isn't "has it been retconned", but "why is it not consistant with other publications published at the same time?"

[Project Phoenix]

I do.

The reason why I'm asking is that a) it contradicts information contained within itself and b) it contradicts information published concurrently in a different publication.

Therefore, the question isn't "has it been retconned", but "why is it not consistant with other publications published at the same time?"

It's simple actually. A lot of anime made in the 80s don't have too much of an established source bible. Any new or additional info written and published by any number of writers may contradict each other because a) they may not have the same access to the source, b) there was no central authority to tell them what is correct or incorrect, or c) revisions were made based on newly revealed sources by the creator much later. Unlike other established fictional worlds like Lord of the Rings and Dune, Macross suffers from lack of a detailed background. What we know of the universe created by SK and gang are from later publications and I see the case of the contradicting info as a lack of foresight when authorizing the books.

But again, you already know all this.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Project Phoenix

[sketchley]

It's simple actually. (...)

You do realize that pointing out the obvious in a condescending manner while failing to answer the fundamental question destroys your intellectual credibility, right?

Gubaba and Azrael have done a lot more in clarifying the question. In summary: because it's based (wholesale copied?) on a 1984 Doujinshi that wasn't considered canon and despite having Kawamori-san's approval, it shouldn't be taken as canon at face value.

[Project Phoenix]

You do realize that pointing out the obvious in a condescending manner while failing to answer the fundamental question destroys your intellectual credibility, right?

Gubaba and Azrael have done a lot more in clarifying the question. In summary: because it's based (wholesale copied?) on a 1984 Doujinshi that wasn't considered canon and despite having Kawamori-san's approval, it shouldn't be taken as canon at face value.

Wow...and I thought here we're having an intelligent discussion. It seems to me rather than focusing on the topic, you decided to make personal attacks on me just because you failed to understand what I was trying to explain. You do realize by attacking me makes you a bully, right?

Condenscending? If attacking my intelligence makes you feel better then feel free. Don't mince words. If you want to call me an idiot just because I state the obvious, do it like a man. All I can say is that you are the one acting in an elitist manner just because you know Japanese, not me.

It seems to me you don't welcome debates or dissenting opinion in this thread. You seem to have THE final say in regards to the canonical status of the book. Therefore I shall not contribute anything further to this thread.

Enjoy.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Project Phoenix

[Roy Focker]

Um...yeah.

The VF-1 book got purdy pictures.

[Skull Leader]

You do realize that pointing out the obvious in a condescending manner while failing to answer the fundamental question destroys your intellectual credibility, right?

Gubaba and Azrael have done a lot more in clarifying the question. In summary: because it's based (wholesale copied?) on a 1984 Doujinshi that wasn't considered canon and despite having Kawamori-san's approval, it shouldn't be taken as canon at face value.

yeah, well... acting like a know-it-all and determining for everyone else what is canon and what is not doesn't help your disposition either, slugger. Only two parties have the right to determine what is canon and what is not. Those are Shoji Kawamori and Big West.... and you, my little bottle of sunshine, are NEITHER.

[edit:] Ok, to a lesser degree, Studio Nue has some say-so as well.

The bottom line is this: People have brought this book to us because no one else saw the need to. It's perfect for fans in almost every way and covers details that any aircraft enthusiast would readily want to know about their favorite jet. WHO CARES if it's canon or not? Big West hasn't shown any interest in releasing an "official" guide to refute it, and no one's forcing you to buy the book. Project Phoenix has gone through the trouble of donating his time to go through and translate some of what this book says (for those of us who speak very little japanese and read a damned sight less of it). Instead of shooting the messenger like you have, Sketchley, you could at least thank him for donating his time.

-Jeremy

(who can't believe he logged in just to jump into an internet argument)

Edited October 6, 2009 by Skull Leader

[Gubaba]

Um...yeah.

The VF-1 book got purdy pictures.

Yep. Real purdy.

[sketchley]

(...) Project Phoenix has gone through the trouble of donating his time to go through and translate some of what this book says (for those of us who speak very little japanese and read a damned sight less of it). (...)

彼だけですか？そうか・・・マクロス・クロニクルや色んな翻訳してるけど俺とグババなどのありがとうは・・・？

[Skull Leader]

彼だけですか？そうか・・・マクロス・クロニクルや色んな翻訳してるけど俺とグババなどのありがとうは・・・？

He's a forum member with the exact same standing as you, thats who. As for what he deserves? Well, I didn't see YOU posting up the translated book... this discussion isn't about the chronicles, it's about the VF-1 techincal book.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Skull Leader

[sketchley]

He's a forum member with the exact same standing as you, thats who. As for what he deserves? Well, I didn't see YOU posting up the translated book... this discussion isn't about the chronicles, it's about the VF-1 techincal book.

And has he? Is he planning to? What's your point other than further dilluting this topic into a pissing game? If you're going to demand thanks for time spent translating Macross related text from Japanese into English, you have to demand it be said to ALL who are doing it.

Lastly, I have http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=793765 and am planning to continue to do so, as soon as the publication's canonicity is clarified (thanks Gubaba and Azrael) and the other translation projects on my plate are cleaned up.

[Skull Leader]

And has he? Is he planning to? What's your point other than further dilluting this topic into a pissing game? If you're going to demand thanks for time spent translating Macross related text from Japanese into English, you have to demand it be said to ALL who are doing it.

Honestly? I don't think he will now. My point is were being a real jackass to him and all he was trying to do was translate something for you guys. You're acting all upset because he's butted in on your turf or something. As far as I'm concerned, there's enough to go around.

As for demanding thanks from EVERYONE? I don't think so. It sounds like you blow your own horn enough that I'm sure you have no issue getting praise when YOU think you deserve it. I don't praise douchebags.

I'm done with this. It was people like you that drove me to be just a lurker around here to begin with... but then, if lording your translation skills around an internet bulletin board is the best you can get out of life, knock yourself out man.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Skull Leader

[Roy Focker]

Mod Speak:

I had hope a friendly reminder about the purdy pictures in this book would have shifted the focus on this topic back to the book and not on the members involved in the topic. If members want to keep talking about each other they will be removed from taking part in this topic.

[Graham]

A little birdy told me that the second book in this series, which is in development now will not be about the VF-1.

Graham

[Gubaba]

A little birdy told me that the second book in this series, which is in development now will not be about the VF-1.

Graham

VF-25...? Or VF-19?

[sketchley]

Probably the VF-25... T.T

Though, I am hoping that they'd do something on the VF-11, and it'd have a little bit on the variable vehicles in the era leading up to it's development.

[azrael]

Probably the VF-25... T.T

Gotta keep up with the times. Why not have another anniversary book.

[Roy Focker]

The VF-1 book is under 130 pages. Next book would likely be the same size. What other mecha has enough information about it for them to expand to make that many pages? I'm guessing it will be dedicated to Groups of related Mecha rather than just 1. Like all about Destroids, Zentradi mecha, Mecha from M7 or MF. You could do that many pages on the SDF-1 maybe.

[sketchley]

Hmmm... in a way, the SDF-1 would make a lot of sense. It'd be in-line with the tail end of the first book (Prometheus, et al) and could also segway into an expansion of the VF-1 in space (or viceversa). Though, as that's been covered (perhaps not in great depth, but still in great breadth) in the first book, I doubt that'll be happening.

For example, Pg 124 has a squadron marking for the "Planet Eden New Edwards Base" VF-1...

[Talos]

Since I finally got my copy of the book today and have been tearing through it, I thought I should point out the next book of the series is for the VF-19 Excalibur and Amazon.co.jp is showing a release date of January 29th. I already preordered mine.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A1...id=14PDMDSTXZTW

Now to get back to going through it and my 1st volume of Macross the First, and soon Macross Ace #3 when it comes in sometime next week.

[Jasonc]

It's really quite an interesting book (WITH ALL THE PURDY PICTURES). Whether the book is canon or not on the speed, engine type and whatnot, is it more accurate in the Mac Chronicles?

I've been looking through this book more lately since I preordered two of the Yamato plain white VF-1s and 2 of the unbuilt VF-1s. I want to do customs with all 4, and while 2 of them will be the 2 MG variations, the other two I want to do in a custom that hasn't really been done yet. The various squadron markings and colors are quite cool. If the next book will look anything like this, I'll be very excited to get 2 copies of that book as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's really quite an interesting book (WITH ALL THE PURDY PICTURES). Whether the book is canon or not on the speed, engine type and whatnot, is it more accurate in the Mac Chronicles?

I only just ordered a copy of the Master File a little bit ago since I was kind of hesitant to purchase seemed to be just an updated version of the Sky Angels book, and only moved on it after a lengthy discussion of the book with Talos. I'd say, given the sheer number of contradictions with established canon (speed, armament, models, block variations, flightsuits, number of ARMDs) and the amount of stuff that is new and never-before-seen (ramjet/scramjet mode, some of the new variants like the VF-1G and VF-1N), and other perplexing goofs, that in terms of accuracy the Master File leaves something to be desired... particularly since in a few places in the development history section it seems to borrow from alternate universe sources pertaining to Macross II's backstory.

Is it a canon resource? No. Is it particularly accurate with respect to the established stats and history? No. Is it cool as hell? Yes. Enough that I was willing to plunk down my money for it and spring for EMS shipping, and I'm not the sort to normally go for non-canon sources.

[hulagu]

It's a renamed Funny Chinese.

Is that the weird mushroom headed ELINT VF-1?

[Seto Kaiba]

Is that the weird mushroom headed ELINT VF-1?

No... it's one of these, which only show up in Love Drifts Away (Super Dimension Fortress Macross ep27). If memory serves, the nickname "Funny Chinese" comes from the Macross Model Hobby Handbook.

[hulagu]

No... it's one of these, which only show up in Love Drifts Away (Super Dimension Fortress Macross ep27). If memory serves, the nickname "Funny Chinese" comes from the Macross Model Hobby Handbook.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of, on account of the radome on its head. I missed its appearance in the series (valkyrie only, I guess?) and have only ever seen it as an SD plastic model, so I was wondering if it was canon.

[sketchley]

Is it cool as hell? Yes.

I second this. Some of the pictures of the Prometheus, especially when semi-submerged are almost drool enducing.

There is a whole bunch of other stuff that is cool in the book - NATO weapons on the wings, technical specs, deployment numbers and quantities produced. It's a shame that the book has presented so much in contradiction to what has been established, that it blankets the new stuff in the shadow of doubt. Shame, really.

[Seto Kaiba]

I second this. Some of the pictures of the Prometheus, especially when semi-submerged are almost drool enducing.

Yeah, that was one of the things that really caught my attention when Talos showed me his copy, I'd always wondered exactly how far the semi-submersible Prometheus could submerge, and seeing it running with just the bridge tower above water for stealth purposes was wicked cool... though what really got my attention was, yes, the ramjet/scramjet diagrams and explanations from the book. Not exactly canon, but a great application of theory and so practical I found myself wondering why the show's creators hadn't thought of that back in the 80s.

There is a whole bunch of other stuff that is cool in the book - NATO weapons on the wings, technical specs, deployment numbers and quantities produced. It's a shame that the book has presented so much in contradiction to what has been established, that it blankets the new stuff in the shadow of doubt. Shame, really.

Yeah, though the various contradictions with the previously established, far more credible publications really kind of spoils that part for me, like retconning Hikaru's VF-1J into a Block 4 model (when it had previously been a Block 5) and making some of the later fighters Block 7 models despite their lack of the appropriate cockpit layout... it just doesn't make sense.

[sketchley]

(...) though what really got my attention was, yes, the ramjet/scramjet diagrams and explanations from the book. Not exactly canon, but a great application of theory and so practical I found myself wondering why the show's creators hadn't thought of that back in the 80s.

Nods. True. It's a logical extrapolation of how the air-breathing turbine jet engine becomes, essentially, a rocket engine.

To my understanding, the VF-4 also contains ramjets (or was it scramjets?), but they are seperate from the engine nacelle thermonuclear reaction turbine engines. Not to mention that it also has seperate rocket engines... anyhow, the point being - if the VF-1 could do it, why couldn't the VF-4 be able to. Ergo: despite the coolness factor, it just doesn't fit the technological chronology.

[Seto Kaiba]

Nods. True. It's a logical extrapolation of how the air-breathing turbine jet engine becomes, essentially, a rocket engine.

Y'know, if they hadn't ascribed velocities in excess of Mach 7.2 to it and just stuck to the old Mach 3.87 figure I could've totally seen it as being not only practical, but possibly canon. Instead, it just blows the old high-altitude figure out of the water entirely, which leaves me shaking my head. The hybrid engine concept has been around for ages, so it would make a great deal of sense.

To my understanding, the VF-4 also contains ramjets (or was it scramjets?), but they are seperate from the engine nacelle thermonuclear reaction turbine engines. Not to mention that it also has seperate rocket engines... anyhow, the point being - if the VF-1 could do it, why couldn't the VF-4 be able to. Ergo: despite the coolness factor, it just doesn't fit the technological chronology.

Apart from the stated speed, that's the other thing that spoils the VF-1 ramjet/scramjet thing for me... that the next-gen fighter (the VF-4) has separate ramjet systems built into the wing surface inboard of the nacelles... if they had the tech to build them right into the main reaction engines, why have a separate system? As for the rocket engines, I think Talos said it best in my chat with him when he said the VF-4 (a nominally space-specialized VF) is essentially a VF-1 Strike Valkyrie with all the external hardware built into the airframe instead.

[Talos]

I second this. Some of the pictures of the Prometheus, especially when semi-submerged are almost drool enducing.

There is a whole bunch of other stuff that is cool in the book - NATO weapons on the wings, technical specs, deployment numbers and quantities produced.

I agree completely. The shot of CVS-101 under the water like that was exactly as I had always imagined it since I first heard the Prometheus described as "semi-submersible". It's very much like old Monitors during the Civil War, when many were designed to be ballasted until their decks were awash to make a smaller target. During the Cold War there were studies to do the same thing with ships again for various reasons.

Then again, looking at the Prometheus and Daedalus' islands, they definitely fit that idea.

In an unrelated note to that, it was awesome seeing a line of Cat's Eyes on Prometheus' flight deck ahead of her island. That's the same place the new Gerald Ford will likely station her E-2Ds when she's commissioned.

As for the additional weapons for the VF-1, the AAM-3, ASM-1, and ASM-2 are all JASDF weapons (which the AIM-9L/M is used by also), while the rest are indeed NATO ones.

I thought the stores pylons arrangements were interesting. First the two-pylon one, then the three-pylon one, then the five-pylon one which I take to be a streamlined manufacturing item.

There was also a neat photo of the VF-1A carrying a boilerplate VF-1D cockpit area test article (complete with test markings) on the centerline gunpod pylon. Nice attention to detail!

Is it just me or are the rectangular engine exhausts retractable (the ones in the feet/nozzles)? The art in the book definitely looks like it. I don't have the technical Japanese language skills to read those sorts of parts yet.

I wonder what the import costs for the Zentradi language edition are?

Nods. True. It's a logical extrapolation of how the air-breathing turbine jet engine becomes, essentially, a rocket engine.

To my understanding, the VF-4 also contains ramjets (or was it scramjets?), but they are seperate from the engine nacelle thermonuclear reaction turbine engines. Not to mention that it also has seperate rocket engines... anyhow, the point being - if the VF-1 could do it, why couldn't the VF-4 be able to. Ergo: despite the coolness factor, it just doesn't fit the technological chronology.

Reading back over the thread, I meant to respond to this one earlier with my thoughts on it too. Anyone who's seen my work in the profiles thread knows that I have spent a LOT of time staring at the VF-4. The design's always called out to me as an interceptor, due to the huge engines and the tiny wing area. Likewise, like I had told Seto in a long discussion on the topic before, I see the VF-4 as basically integrating the Strike FAST pack and regular VF-1 weapons load in an aerodynamic package that can go anywhere. You got the beam cannons, rockets, and 10 AAM-1s all integrated into the plane without sacrificing atmospheric capability -or- using up any hardpoints. Sounds like quite an evolutionary follow-on to the Super and Strike VF-1 to me.

I hadn't thought much of the engines in relation to the new info of the VF-1's combo until yesterday, but I had some thoughts too. In some old lineart Kawamori did, he shows a VF-4 without the top rockets and beam cannons and the tails mounted down right above the wing. In another drawing he shows it with a large pair of boosters installed instead. If we consider them to basically be streamlined and integrated FAST backs, then that doesn't really disqualify the new VF-1 info as much. As for the Scram/Ramjets, a VF-4 wouldn't be able to do the same knee-bending move to take the nuclear turbines out of the airstream since there's four AAM-1s mounted right where it could break. The wing scramjets could take care of that.

In that thinking too, having them seperate would allow them to be used in conjunction. Imagine a VF-4 in high-speed atmospheric cruise on the (sc)ramjets, but needs more speed so they cut in the rocket boosters like a Super VF-1 could in space.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Talos