LOL Macross Sizes

[RedWolf]

M:II Valkyries at the corner.

No Variable Glaug or VF-XX Zentran Valkyrie.

[taksraven]

M:II Valkyries at the corner.

No Variable Glaug or VF-XX Zentran Valkyrie.

Where is the mystery fighter from the end of Frontier ep 6??

Taksraven

[sketchley]

M:II Valkyries at the corner.

No Variable Glaug or VF-XX Zentran Valkyrie.

The VA-3 should be earlier - possible the same block as the VF-5000/9

Given the size of the cockpit, the VF-14 is out of scale compared to the other VFs.

VF-11 MAXL KAI (as opposed to the mention, but never seen VF-11 MAXL) is too small - should be the same size as the VF-11.

[RedWolf]

Where is the mystery fighter from the end of Frontier ep 6??

Taksraven

We don't know if it is a VF or a fighter like the F203 Dragon II.

F203 Dragon II

[anime52k8]

The VA-3 should be earlier - possible the same block as the VF-5000/9

Given the size of the cockpit, the VF-14 is out of scale compared to the other VFs.

VF-11 MAXL KAI (as opposed to the mention, but never seen VF-11 MAXL) is too small - should be the same size as the VF-11.

first the MAXL kai is supposed to be smaller. more than a meter and a half shorter.

and as for the VF-14, the cockpit on it isn't visible anyways, but I think the valk still looks about right. the VF-14 is a BIG plane. and the it looks like for the chart the guy based the size of the VF-14 on the dimensions of the Fz-109.

[sketchley]

Re: VF-11 MAXL Kai: the prime difference is the lack of a head laser. The chart has it at more than 4 red lines (4 m?) less height than the VF-11, with head laser included.

Re: VF-14 the cockpit is visible on the back: http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossga/vf-1...ttroid-rear.gif

The Fz-109 (if the VF-14 is indeed of the same height) is: 17.11 m. The VF-11 (which this image places the VF-14 next to) is 12.92 m; giving a difference of approximately 4 m. This chart has a height difference of 7.5 m (if the red lines are spaced 1 m apart.) Therefore, the VF-11 should be looking at the VF-14's upper chest/neck, and not the groin.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Where is the mystery fighter from the end of Frontier ep 6??

Taksraven

Second from the end

[Cyclone Trooper]

Going back to the Macross Cannon...

The information I have on these ships is that they're only 488 meters in length, making them not much bigger than the Macross Quarter. It seems a tad off that these ships would dwarf even the Vrhitwai Command ships by 2000m...

[MDP310]

Going back to the Macross Cannon...

The information I have on these ships is that they're only 488 meters in length, making them not much bigger than the Macross Quarter. It seems a tad off that these ships would dwarf even the Vrhitwai Command ships by 2000m...

Really? My first thought when I saw the Macross cannon was "holy crap, that thing has command ships for ARMS, how rediculously huge is that"

[RedWolf]

Going back to the Macross Cannon...

The information I have on these ships is that they're only 488 meters in length, making them not much bigger than the Macross Quarter. It seems a tad off that these ships would dwarf even the Vrhitwai Command ships by 2000m...

Copy Pasta

Using the old Paladin rpg Macross II figures, if they are proportioned which I doubt, I calculated the approximate size of the Macross Cannon in Attacker mode.

245 m (soldier mode) x 6000 m (Macross Cannon length) / 488 m (prone mode) = 3012 meters tall (Macross Cannon Attacker mode)

[Cyclone Trooper]

Copy Pasta

...3012 meters tall (Macross Cannon Attacker mode)

That's still nearly 3 times larger than even the Megaroad Class! Granted, we're talking about an alternate universe here, but still!

Edited March 8, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[RedWolf]

Well Macross Chronicle established the Megaroad class as 1600 meters in length.

[Mr March]

Even Kawamori must bow to canon. If he wants Han Solo firing second, he has to change it. Otherwise, he's stuck with it

If the Factory Satellite were parked at a Lagrange point (as stated in the SDF Macross series) and were 5-500 km in size, the Factory Satellite wouldn't be identifiable from the surface of Earth as anything other than a prominent point of light in the sky. That's the only reliable, in-context scaling of the Factory Satellite in the entire SDF Macross series. The closest Lagrange point is 1.5 million kilometers away from Earth (roughly four times as far as the Moon is to the Earth). Since the Factory Satellite is shown as a significant portion of the size of the Moon and as a distinctly identifiable object clearly discerned from Earth's surface by the naked eye, there are two options:

a) the Factory Satellite is 5-500 km in size and WAS NOT parked at a Lagrange Point, in contradiction of the anime. A 5-500 km Factory Satellite would need to be parked at some point much closer than the Moon is to the Earth if it were to be visibly identifiable from the planet's surface (depending upon the size chosen between the 5-500 km range).

b) the Factory Satellite is 3,000 km in size and IS parked much farther out than the Moon at one of the Lagrange Points, just as the anime stated. Since the Factory Satellite is nearly as large as the Moon but is much farther away from Earth, the Factory Satellite appears significantly smaller to the naked eye, just as is shown in the anime.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Mr March

[SchizophrenicMC]

Even Kawamori must bow to canon. If he wants Han Solo firing second, he has to change it. Otherwise, he's stuck with it

If the Factory Satellite were parked at a Lagrange point (as stated in the SDF Macross series) and were 5-500 km in size, the Factory Satellite wouldn't be identifiable from the surface of Earth as anything other than a prominent point of light in the sky. That's the only reliable, in-context scaling of the Factory Satellite in the entire SDF Macross series. The closest Lagrange point is 1.5 million kilometers away from Earth (roughly four times as far as the Moon is to the Earth). Since the Factory Satellite is shown as a significant portion of the size of the Moon and as a distinctly identifiable object clearly discerned from Earth's surface by the naked eye, there are two options:

a) the Factory Satellite is 5-500 km in size and WAS NOT parked at a Lagrange Point, in contradiction of the anime. A 5-500 km Factory Satellite would need to be parked at some point much closer than the Moon is to the Earth if it were to be visibly identifiable from the planet's surface (depending upon the size chosen between the 5-500 km range).

b) the Factory Satellite is 3,000 km in size and IS parked much farther out than the Moon at one of the Lagrange Points, just as the anime stated. Since the Factory Satellite is nearly as large as the Moon but is much farther away from Earth, the Factory Satellite appears significantly smaller to the naked eye, just as is shown in the anime.

Is it explicitly stated it's a Sun-Earth L-point? What if it's an Earth-Moon Lagrangian Point?

[Bri]

Is it specified that canon refers to the sun-earth Lagrange points? Any 3-body system can have langrange points if the smallest mass is negligible compare to the other two. A 5-500 km Factory satelite could be parked in one of the earth-moon Lagrange-points without going against canon. Those points would be closer to the earth then the sun-earth ones.

-edit- ignore this post, SchizophrenicMC beat me to it.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Bri

[anime52k8]

Re: VF-11 MAXL Kai: the prime difference is the lack of a head laser. The chart has it at more than 4 red lines (4 m?) less height than the VF-11, with head laser included.

Re: VF-14 the cockpit is visible on the back: http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossga/vf-1...ttroid-rear.gif

The Fz-109 (if the VF-14 is indeed of the same height) is: 17.11 m. The VF-11 (which this image places the VF-14 next to) is 12.92 m; giving a difference of approximately 4 m. This chart has a height difference of 7.5 m (if the red lines are spaced 1 m apart.) Therefore, the VF-11 should be looking at the VF-14's upper chest/neck, and not the groin.

I know where the cockpit is. Either way, the VF-14 isn't more than a meter off. If we're going by cockpit size, the visible cockpit on the VF-11 isn't that much smaller than how big the cockpit on the VF-14 is if you could see it.

anyways; regarding the MAXL: the prime difference is the MAXL is flat out smaller. the approximately 13 meter battroid height on the VF-11 is to the top of the head, not the top of the head laser. if it was to the top of the head laser it would be shorter than a VF-1.

the MAXL Kai is listed as 11.24 meters there about. making it close to 1 and 3/4 meters shorter than the VF-11 (not including big phallic head laser). so the guy has it right.

anyways, because your so adamant, here's the chart again with your numbers.

also I realized I made the other ships a little big in the last chart, so here it is again.

[Mr March]

There's no way a 500 km Factory Satellite can be considered a "negligible body" in an Earth-Moon lagrange system. But no, the anime is not specific as to a Sun-Earth lagrange system, it merely shows a lagrange point somewhere in the vicinity of Earth and some unidentified point in the top right hand corner sitting on the same orbit.

However, let's use a little context here. Misa and the UN Spacy crew aboard Britai's ship spoke of their amazement at the Factory Satellite's size, even commenting; "It's huge! The Protoculture must have been incredibly powerful to build something like [the Factory Satellite]." Since Misa and Co. had all encountered the 1,400 km tall (or 890 km tall) Fulbtzs-Berrentz Class Mothership (big blue) twice before, their reactions to the Factory Satellite would make absolutely no sense if it were a mere 5-500 km long (half or less the size of the FB mothership).

Basically, it comes down to asking what the heck was wrong with the 3,000 km figure for the Factory Satellite? For that matter, what was wrong with the 1,400 km figure for the FB Mothership? I'm all for the Chronicle adding new information or adjusting figures that don't make sense (should they choose to adjust the VF-4 Lightning length vs. width, the VF-11 Thunderbolt length, etc). As long as nothing in the anime itself contradicts their figures, the Chronicle writers can even over rule line art (such as the 1,700 meter long Megaroad-01 figure). I'll take all their changes and adjust my information accordingly, even if it contradicts my long held assumptions about the Macross universe. After all, my website is just a messenger.

But the FB and Factory Satellite are two instances in which the given sizes did not require alteration, worked well within canon events of the series, and were already clearly stated in definitive Macross publications 25 years ago (see Macross Perfect Memory). Someone was smoking something when they wrote that Chronicle page and their sizes for the Factory Satellite are nothing like it was presented in SDF Macross series. A 500 km Factory Satellite clearly contradicts the reaction from Misa and Co and a figure clearly stated in Macross Perfect Memory. A 3,000 km Factory Satellite works perfectly within canon events and does not require the assumption of ANY additional unknown factors on the part of the audience.

For my part, both sets of size figures for the Factory Satellite will be posted on my website. Macross fans can decide for themselves which set of figures they think makes sense.

Attached a picture of a 5 km long Factory Satellite (accounting for the missing section on the left), just for fun

Edited March 8, 2009 by Mr March

[sketchley]

I know where the cockpit is. Either way, the VF-14 isn't more than a meter off. If we're going by cockpit size, the visible cockpit on the VF-11 isn't that much smaller than how big the cockpit on the VF-14 is if you could see it.

anyways; regarding the MAXL: the prime difference is the MAXL is flat out smaller. the approximately 13 meter battroid height on the VF-11 is to the top of the head, not the top of the head laser. if it was to the top of the head laser it would be shorter than a VF-1.

the MAXL Kai is listed as 11.24 meters there about. making it close to 1 and 3/4 meters shorter than the VF-11 (not including big phallic head laser). so the guy has it right.

anyways, because your so adamant, here's the chart again with your numbers.

also I realized I made the other ships a little big in the last chart, so here it is again.

Look, if you're going to be an ass about it, who's going to want to keep talking to you?

The numbers are not mine. Stop trying to shoot the reporter, and do what Mr.March is doing - shoot the creator.

[sketchley]

However, let's use a little context here. Misa and the UN Spacy crew aboard Britai's ship spoke of their amazement at the Factory Satellite's size, even commenting; "It's huge! The Protoculture must have been incredibly powerful to build something like [the Factory Satellite]." Since Misa and Co. had all encountered the 1,400 km tall (or 890 km tall) Fulbtzs-Berrentz Class Mothership (big blue) twice before, their reactions to the Factory Satellite would make absolutely no sense if it were a mere 5-500 km long (half or less the size of the FB mothership).

How much time has passed between their seeing the FB mothership and the Factory Satellite? Were they expecting something much smaller? Was their reactions added just for dramatic effect to emphasis the size of the thing?

Putting things into perspective: the Zentraedi ships are huge. Anything bigger than a Zentraedi ship would be mind boggling huge - it doesn't matter if it is 500, or 3,000 Km.

But the FB and Factory Satellite are two instances in which the given sizes did not require alteration, worked well within canon events of the series, and were already clearly stated in definitive Macross publications 25 years ago (see Macross Perfect Memory). Someone was smoking something when they wrote that Chronicle page and their sizes for the Factory Satellite are nothing like it was presented in SDF Macross series. A 500 km Factory Satellite clearly contradicts the reaction from Misa and Co and a figure clearly stated in Macross Perfect Memory. A 3,000 km Factory Satellite works perfectly within canon events and does not require the assumption of ANY additional unknown factors on the part of the audience.

I don't see it so much as revisions, but more as refinements. If you take the two new figures for the FB mothership, you arrive at the same figure as in Perfect Memory. The main difference between the old and the new, that we know of, is that Kawamori-san is directly involved (even if it's only in a supervisory capacity) with the creation of Macross Chronicle. Can the same be said for other Macross related publications?

Other things to consider: was there a typo? Could the original be stemming from a miscommunication?

Attached a picture of a 5 km long Factory Satellite (accounting for the missing section on the left), just for fun

As the Factory Satellite has never been described as a one factory makes all Zentraedi equipment, I'm of the opinion that the 5 Km size ones (which may just be the size of one of the small pods around the main body) are for the creation of something other than Regults and the repair of Zentraedi ships - perhaps for the cloning of Zentraedi?

[Mr March]

We could just as easily question the assumptions of the new figures. Was the 500 km figure a misinterpretation by a writer who saw the Factory Satellite de-fold scene in episode 30 and concluded it was clearly way smaller than the Moon? Did Kawamori forget, as he recently stated he does in his interview in Otona Anime #9? Did Miyatake size the FB and Factory Satellites, which Kawamori and Co. are now attempting to change without Miyatake's input? Was the 1,400 km figure correct to begin with? Is the Mobile Fortress also up for "refinement"? Is it at all likely that EVERY megastructure was somehow incorrectly sized 25 years ago and needs correction now? No, not likely at all

The salient point is such questioning is an analysis without end. If we go down this "path of the most unknowns" we question it all and can never know anything for sure. If we throw out everything except the Macross Chronicle (including the official series bibles, created during the optimum time for publishing official fact some 25 years ago, when ALL the original creative staff were involved) that already raises it's own set of problems.

Besides, the Macross Chronicle actually states a Factory Satellite exists that builds Motherships, not something else. The 3,000 km Factory Satellite worked perfectly within canon for 25 years. If some fans want to interpret it as a 5-500 km Factory Satellite, they're welcome to do so. But this is one instance where the Chronicle is reaching beyond it's grasp. It's a rare occurrence for the franchise and hopefully it doesn't happen again. The only option is to let the fans decide for themselves.

[taksraven]

also I realized I made the other ships a little big in the last chart, so here it is again.

Stop it. That picture makes me giggle incessantly. (I do like it though)

I guess that the next thing would be to compare the factory satellite to the Earth, or maybe just a continent.

It kinda reminds me of The Mekon's head. (Hows that for obscure) Really big and impractical but its still there anyway.

Actually, the Grand Cannon is missing off the scale chart as well. Thats a big piece of hardware.

[RedWolf]

Now Anon is doing a station ship size chart.

[taksraven]

Now Anon is doing a station ship size chart.

Makes you wonder. Even with a race of giants, how long would it take to build a structure of that size and where would you get the resources from? It would be easier to hollow out a planetoid. (or is that what its supposed to be?)

Actually, thats an idea that has fallen out of fashion in SF but used to be a great concept. Asteroid Spaceships!

Taksraven

[anime52k8]

Makes you wonder. Even with a race of giants, how long would it take to build a structure of that size and where would you get the resources from? It would be easier to hollow out a planetoid. (or is that what its supposed to be?)

Actually, thats an idea that has fallen out of fashion in SF but used to be a great concept. Asteroid Spaceships!

Taksraven

my senior english teach talked about how you would make one of those in class once. (I was taking scifi lit). interesting stuff. anyways, the really important question is, how do you get around a ship that big?

[sketchley]

The definitive size of the factory satellite? Not much bigger than a Battle Class ship. See:

[RedWolf]

The definitive size of the factory satellite? Not much bigger than a Battle Class ship. See:

Which reminds me of the Factory Satellite in Macross II. Not very big that it has Macross Cannons docked to it.

[sketchley]

We could just as easily question the assumptions of the new figures. (...)

Yes, we could. Or we could just live out the rest of our lives in peace knowing that this latest revision revises the super silly big figures into something that's just silly big.

Besides, the Macross Chronicle actually states a Factory Satellite exists that builds Motherships, not something else. The 3,000 km Factory Satellite worked perfectly within canon for 25 years. If some fans want to interpret it as a 5-500 km Factory Satellite, they're welcome to do so. But this is one instance where the Chronicle is reaching beyond it's grasp. It's a rare occurrence for the franchise and hopefully it doesn't happen again. The only option is to let the fans decide for themselves.

I'm curious where it actually states that. I just scanned, and rescanned both articles, and neither mentions the other, nor that one produces the other.

Nevertheless, I'm also curious where the line of reasoning that all Zentradi ships must be produced at a Factory Satellite? As it begs the question: what makes the Factory Satellite in the first place? Another Factory Satellite? Macross has shipyards (Oberth), why couldn't the same hold true for Factory Satellites and FB Mobile Bases? - especially as they don't need to be massed produced to the same extent as things such as Regults and Destroyers?

I think a fan interpreting the creators statements as in error, is a fan that is in error. Having both sizes (hopefully with a reference to the source and it's publication date) is probably the best way to get around the issue.

Nevertheless, if one decides that one datum is wrong, that puts all the rest of the data from the same source into questionable light. So, by claiming that this datum is in error, will the Macross Mecha Manual put all of the other information from Chronicles in the same dubious catagory, thereby reducing its effectiveness?

Edited March 9, 2009 by sketchley

[Mr March]

I fail to see how an 890 km tall ship isn't within the same category of ridiculousness as a 1,400 km tall ship. Is this new 890 km figure supposed to offset the far greater absurdity of a space fleet of 4,795,122 ships? Are planet-eating MDE bombs and the planet-engulfing Vajra Ring in Macross Frontier also attempts to "reduce" Macross absurdity? Seems to me that's going in the wrong direction.

The line about the Factory Satellite building Motherships is on the new Macross Compendium, so I just assumed it came from the Chronicle. Perhaps it came from liner notes in the video releases of Frontier. At any rate, it's there. As for who built it, the Protoculture did that, not the Zentradi. The Protoculture set up everything the Zentradi needed. From that base line, the Zentradi have never progressed, only expanded. So we don't have to worry about how the Protoculture built the Factory Satellites (or whether they are self-building) because it's irrelevant in what was once a clear, linear food chain of Zentradi materiel.

As for analysis, I think a fan arbitrarily declaring Macross Perfect Memory is superseded by the Macross Chronicle is a fan in error. Unified theory is the only method that works. If unified theory demands we acknowledge those rare instances where a contradiction exists without a final answer, then that's what we do. As much as fans may love the Chronicle, it's just a fallible as any other source (arguably even more so, after 25 years).

Lastly, the Factory Satellite and Fulbtzs-Berrentz Mothership do no represent a slippery slope that calls into question everything in the Chronicle. Nearly everything the Chronicle has published only enhances the Macross universe, not alters it. The Megaroad-01, the Oberth, the Macross 7 fleet; these are all things that did not exist before. Right or wrong, if MPM says 1,400 km and the Chronicle says 890 km, we fans don't get the honor of arbitrary fan decree proclaiming one as right and one as wrong. Unification of facts demands that until such time as the contradiction is resolved, both figures must be recognized.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Mr March

[SchizophrenicMC]

Dammit, who cares? It still not even a speck, compared to the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann...

[sketchley]

(...) Unification of facts demands that until such time as the contradiction is resolved, both figures must be recognized.

I fail to see your logic. Macross Chronicle is providing a "unification of facts", in that all of the facts published within it are unified with each other. By calling into question one stat, you've questioned the entire set of stats presented by the publication. One either accepts them all, as is, or rejects them all, as is.

Revisions happen. Moving along.

[Morpheus]

Wow, seeing those scales especially the size of the Factory Satellite makes me wonder, does those factory also mass produced mobile fortress which could mass produced zentraedi fleets?

If Char is in Macross Universe, he would happy to see the Factory Satellite and make a "factory drop" which will destroy Earth instantly.

So based on "Anon" chart:

- Biggest space faring vessel -> Island Cluster type ultra-long-distance colony ship.

- Biggest space installation -> Protoculture factory satellite

[RedWolf]

Anon's new one taking account contradicting scales.

Factory Satellite looks ridiculously huge. No wonder Zentradi who prefer to be big live there.

On the megaship scale Mardook mothership looks like shrimp. Given it has a 100,000 ships it's a tiny fleet compared to a Bodol fleet.

edit:

Now with Island 3.

Say anybody have the stats for Island 3?

Edited March 10, 2009 by RedWolf

[taksraven]

Anon's new one taking account contradicting scales.

Factory Satellite looks ridiculously huge. No wonder Zentradi who prefer to be big live there.

On the megaship scale Mardook mothership looks like shrimp. Given it has a 100,000 ships it's a tiny fleet compared to a Bodol fleet.

So how would the Factory Satellite on the 3000km tall scale compare to, lets say, a place like Earth??

Taksraven

[RedWolf]

So how would the Factory Satellite on the 3000km tall scale compare to, lets say, a place like Earth??

Taksraven

The moon is 1/4 the diameter of Earth. So more or less that scale.

Edited March 10, 2009 by RedWolf

[Mr March]

I fail to see your logic. Macross Chronicle is providing a "unification of facts", in that all of the facts published within it are unified with each other. By calling into question one stat, you've questioned the entire set of stats presented by the publication. One either accepts them all, as is, or rejects them all, as is.

Revisions happen. Moving along.

Again, my last post stands. This is no slippery slope and it is a unification of facts.

Nonetheless, we'll go back to the thread.