Macross Frontier and prior Macross mysteries

[Syngyne]

Since the Vajra are pretty much interconnected across the galaxy, and humans are now buddy-buddy with them, can't they ask the Vajra what happened to Megaroad-01?

[The Saint]

Maybe the Vajra didn't actually witness what happened. They're not everywhere.

[Syngyne]

Or maybe they ate it...

[Master Dex]

Or maybe everyone has come to terms with Megaroad-01 (or stopped caring) and don't think it is worth trying to figure out anymore. Perhaps that is best.

[VFTF1]

I highly doubt the Vajra are "everywhere" - I think that in Macross, the galaxy is kind of like Australia. Sure - everyone is there - but it takes a hell of a long time to go visit someone.

The notion that just because the Vajra are around therefore they know what happened to Megaroad 01 is kind of cheesy and I'm glad Macross doesn't come up with that as a plot point...

Pete

[azrael]

Or maybe everyone has come to terms with Megaroad-01 (or stopped caring) and don't think it is worth trying to figure out anymore. Perhaps that is best.

And we have a BINGO.

The universe is a big place just like this planet we all live on. I have no idea what goes on in Abakan, Russia (Yeh, it's just some random city I picked on Google maps)

[VF-25 Messiah]

Syngyne is Bilrer!

Bilrer too wanted to find out what happened to the Megaroad 01 (Minmay to be exact) and was hoping to find out through the Vajra. When he realizes he wont, he closes the the ring with her photograph in it with a symbolic sigh "Nope, not this time."

[eugimon]

the megaroad fell through a wormhole into an alternate dimension where their descendants became the people featured in Orguss.

[VFTF1]

azreal wrote:

I have no idea what goes on in Abakan, Russia

Mainly there are lots of really really hot chicks posing half naked for pictures and trying to get you to bring them to America for a couple thousand bucks:

http://www.city-of-brides.com/from/Abakan.shtml

Enjoy Abakan, Russia.

Pete

providing Macrossworld with truly important news 24/7

Edited February 10, 2009 by VFTF1

[Syngyne]

Bilrer too wanted to find out what happened to the Megaroad 01 (Minmay to be exact) and was hoping to find out through the Vajra. When he realizes he wont, he closes the the ring with her photograph in it with a symbolic sigh "Nope, not this time."

Is THAT who that was a picture of? I was wondering.

Also, people seem to be directing a disproportionate amount of ire towards a silly question.

[azrael]

Is THAT who that was a picture of? I was wondering.

[Mr March]

It's just the internet. Never take the "alleged" ire personally

Edited February 10, 2009 by Mr March

[AcroRay]

I was under the impression that the Vajra left their planet for 'parts unknown' after Frontier freed their queen from Grace and landed the planet. Ai-kun just stuck around with Ranka.

Wouldn't that be quite an upset to the 'status quo' of the whole colony-fleet thing, if the Macross universe suddenly developed instantaneous fold technology? That would make all the fleets moot, and would probably really eliminate a lot of story possibilities...

Edited February 11, 2009 by AcroRay

[Master Dex]

I was under the impression that the Vajra left their planet for 'parts unknown' after Frontier freed their queen from Grace and landed the planet. Ai-kun just stuck around with Ranka.

Wouldn't that be quite an upset to the 'status quo' of the whole colony-fleet thing, if the Macross universe suddenly developed instantaneous fold technology? That would make all the fleets moot, and would probably really eliminate a lot of story possibilities...

I don't see how living with the Vajra gives you instantaneous fold technology... the Vajra can't instantaneously fold.. they are just good at it. I also imagine with them as friends Frontier will no longer be harvesting fold quartz from their dead bodies... they might not like that... unless they don't mind it being done to those that died of natural causes.

[AcroRay]

If humanity makes friends with the Vajra, I picture larger Vajra - the Big Reds, carriers and the like - giving human ships a lift, or piggybacking them.

I do have the impression that we're to understand that the Vajra are capable of instantaneous - or near-instantaneous - folding. Hence their appearance simultaneously over the skies of Earth and at the faraway Macross II fleet during the concluding episodes of Frontier. My impression is that Mr. Briler also wanted to acquire that ability from the Vajra, so he could catch up to the Megaroad fleet and find Minmay.

[HannouHeiki]

I use to understand the physics of everything of special relativity, but I mainly remember the results.

With FTL travel, you get crazy things like time travel, where you arrive at a time before you left.

With FTL communication, you can also send messages to a time before you actually sent it.

Maybe Fold Tech in Macross circumvents these paradoxes somehow.

But when they were talking about the "Super Dimension" communications network, I was under the impression Birler wanted to use such a paradox to send messages back in time.

Anyone get a different in universe explanation?

[anime52k8]

If humanity makes friends with the Vajra, I picture larger Vajra - the Big Reds, carriers and the like - giving human ships a lift, or piggybacking them.

I do have the impression that we're to understand that the Vajra are capable of instantaneous - or near-instantaneous - folding. Hence their appearance simultaneously over the skies of Earth and at the faraway Macross II fleet during the concluding episodes of Frontier. My impression is that Mr. Briler also wanted to acquire that ability from the Vajra, so he could catch up to the Megaroad fleet and find Minmay.

the point of showing Vajra popping up around earth and the Mac 11 fleet, was to express the point that Grace now controlled all the Vajra everywhere and could and was sending them wherever she wanted to take out Spacy. within the rest of the show, the Vajra are only described as being able to fold naturally and more efficiently because they don't have to navigate around fold faults. Basically they can get from point A to point B faster because they go through fold space in a strait line nonstop instead of having to take roundabout roots avoiding fold faults.

much faster but not instantaneous.

also, It's still possible that even though humans aren't fighting the Vajra, the improved space fold technology may still be forthcoming. the new fold drives run on fold quartz, and it's possible that by studying the Vajra peacefully (like they were trying to do 11 years prior) they might figure out how to make fold quartz artificially.

and I don't see the improved fold technology eliminating the need for colony fleets. there may still be range limits to folds using the new systems. and a fleet has to know where it's going before it folds. It kind of seemed like the colonies operate by sending out scout parties to survey parts of space then fold the whole fleet there; they do this over and over until they find a planet that they can land on.

[Gubaba]

Also, people seem to be directing a disproportionate amount of ire towards a silly question.

Try to see it from our point of view...before Frontier began, we had a lot of people saying, "I bet they'll show the Megaroad-01!"

After the series started, a lot of people were saying, "I bet the Vajra got the Megaroad-01!"

When they showed the SDFN-04 Global, a lot of people said, "I bet it's connected to the Megaroad-01!"

As the series drew to a close, some people said, "They're going to the Vajra homeworld...I bet they'll find the Megaroad-01!"

Now, there are even people saying, "In the movie version, I bet they'll show the Megaroad-01!"

Naturally, we get a little testy at times about it...it's like hearing your kid saying "Are we there yet?" for the 500th time.

[Master Dex]

I use to understand the physics of everything of special relativity, but I mainly remember the results.

With FTL travel, you get crazy things like time travel, where you arrive at a time before you left.

With FTL communication, you can also send messages to a time before you actually sent it.

Maybe Fold Tech in Macross circumvents these paradoxes somehow.

But when they were talking about the "Super Dimension" communications network, I was under the impression Birler wanted to use such a paradox to send messages back in time.

Anyone get a different in universe explanation?

Don't get too confused thinking about all that stuff, trust me I think about that a lot. Most science fiction FTL drives work in such a way as to circumvent special relativity so you don't have to worry about that. As such Fold travel is treated like regular travel on a higher level. Whereas it would take many thousands of years to travel sub light to another star, now you can do it in hours or days.

You only deal with special relativity if you physically travel close to the speed of light (without the aid of some FTL system) and if you did that time would be slower on the traveling ship than outside so by the time you arrived it would actually be many hundreds of years later but it would seem only a short time for the traveling ship.

Communication is similar, if you send a normal signal to another star, it will take years to get there (assuming a radio-like wave that travels at the speed of light like radio waves we use now do). The Fold communications send messaged through space folds it seems so they get to their destination much faster with as little lag as possible.

Granted there are discrepancies in space fold technologies like the time dilation in fold vs. real space but I have the theory this is a result of fold faults as introduced in Frontier (where they wouldn't have known why that was the case before) but that is a completely different subject altogether so don't worry about it.

Space Folding should then have no relation to time travel (although I'm sure you could find some way of inducing time travel with a space fold just because of the unique effects of messing with extra dimensions, but I won't get into that).

In fact I'm not sure if we really know what Bilrer was trying to do besides trying to create a more efficient folding system to more closely tie the galaxy together.

[VFTF1]

I also imagine with them as friends Frontier will no longer be harvesting fold quartz from their dead bodies... they might not like that... unless they don't mind it being done to those that died of natural causes.

Actually - considering the policy with regard to the dead on Macross Frontier - they would probably try to convince the Vajra to allow for harvesting fold quartz. After all, on the Frontier, the human dead are all recycled into the eco-system.

Pete

[HannouHeiki]

Don't get too confused thinking about all that stuff, trust me I think about that a lot. Most science fiction FTL drives work in such a way as to circumvent special relativity so you don't have to worry about that. As such Fold travel is treated like regular travel on a higher level. Whereas it would take many thousands of years to travel sub light to another star, now you can do it in hours or days.

You only deal with special relativity if you physically travel close to the speed of light (without the aid of some FTL system) and if you did that time would be slower on the traveling ship than outside so by the time you arrived it would actually be many hundreds of years later but it would seem only a short time for the traveling ship.

Communication is similar, if you send a normal signal to another star, it will take years to get there (assuming a radio-like wave that travels at the speed of light like radio waves we use now do). The Fold communications send messaged through space folds it seems so they get to their destination much faster with as little lag as possible.

Granted there are discrepancies in space fold technologies like the time dilation in fold vs. real space but I have the theory this is a result of fold faults as introduced in Frontier (where they wouldn't have known why that was the case before) but that is a completely different subject altogether so don't worry about it.

Space Folding should then have no relation to time travel (although I'm sure you could find some way of inducing time travel with a space fold just because of the unique effects of messing with extra dimensions, but I won't get into that).

In fact I'm not sure if we really know what Bilrer was trying to do besides trying to create a more efficient folding system to more closely tie the galaxy together.

Here is some interesting reading if you have the spare time. I don't have it digested anymore (real life prevents me from pondering relativity all day, lol) it mentions how the paradoxes can occur, regardless of the method of FTL travel. Meaning the paradoxes happen no matter what. FTL in of itself violates causality. Only made up special rules get out of the problem.

[gladio]

the megaroad fell through a wormhole into an alternate dimension where their descendants became the people featured in Orguss.

...and they start to cultivate protoculturian ganja......roboLOLtech XD

[Macette]

Try to see it from our point of view...before Frontier began, we had a lot of people saying, "I bet they'll show the Megaroad-01!"

After the series started, a lot of people were saying, "I bet the Vajra got the Megaroad-01!"

When they showed the SDFN-04 Global, a lot of people said, "I bet it's connected to the Megaroad-01!"

As the series drew to a close, some people said, "They're going to the Vajra homeworld...I bet they'll find the Megaroad-01!"

Now, there are even people saying, "In the movie version, I bet they'll show the Megaroad-01!"

Naturally, we get a little testy at times about it...it's like hearing your kid saying "Are we there yet?" for the 500th time.

So about the Megaroad-01, has anyone seen it?

*prepares to get beaten*

[Master Dex]

Here is some interesting reading if you have the spare time. I don't have it digested anymore (real life prevents me from pondering relativity all day, lol) it mentions how the paradoxes can occur, regardless of the method of FTL travel. Meaning the paradoxes happen no matter what. FTL in of itself violates causality. Only made up special rules get out of the problem.

I don't ponder it all day, I just like to think about things like that a lot... I assume you meant to post a link.

Nonetheless, of course FTL violates causality, it is a plot device after all. However I like to study the details of how some FTLs are supposed to work in comparison to what physics (as we know it) allows. It can give very interesting insights sometimes. However when creating an FTL for a science fiction show you don't want to focus too much on reality or you will get lost trying to make it sound like it could actually work, no one wants that, they want to see a show. So you make up special rules that allow the FTL to work, regardless of whether they'd actually work.

Plot device my friend, plot device.

[Zinjo]

So about the Megaroad-01, has anyone seen it?

*prepares to get beaten*

Not officially. As in no published record or produced show has mentioned any sightings.

Mr.Brila believed the Vajra had seen it in their travels, which is why he covertly supported the Galaxy plan to use fold link technology to communicate across the galaxy.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Zinjo

[HannouHeiki]

I don't ponder it all day, I just like to think about things like that a lot... I assume you meant to post a link.

doh

http://stason.org/TULARC/education-books/s...d-FTL-Trav.html

[dreamweaver13]

So about the Megaroad-01, has anyone seen it?

*prepares to get beaten*

God has. If you believe Kawamori.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Strangely, the only FTL I can think of that's non-instantaneous is either A) Star Wars' Hyperdrive systems, or B ) Halo's Slipspace (Shaw-Fujikawa) Drive systems.

In a Hyperdrive, if a certain conduit is incorrectly connected or ruptures, you travel FORWARD in time. Such was the case of one man who travelled about 280 years while hyperspacing to Coruscant. When asked about returning to his homeworld, he said "I think I'll take a shuttle."

In a Slipspace drive, I can't think of any time distortion.

Then, of course, there's BSG's FTL which is instantaneous, as far as I can tell...

[Master Dex]

Strangely, the only FTL I can think of that's non-instantaneous is either A) Star Wars' Hyperdrive systems, or B ) Halo's Slipspace (Shaw-Fujikawa) Drive systems.

In a Hyperdrive, if a certain conduit is incorrectly connected or ruptures, you travel FORWARD in time. Such was the case of one man who travelled about 280 years while hyperspacing to Coruscant. When asked about returning to his homeworld, he said "I think I'll take a shuttle."

In a Slipspace drive, I can't think of any time distortion.

Then, of course, there's BSG's FTL which is instantaneous, as far as I can tell...

Warp drive from Star Trek is not instantaneous. Cancels out time dilation by having the ship not actually moving (space around the ship in moving with the ship 'going for the ride').

As for that hyperdrive thing you mentioned, the character in question had a malfunction in his ships hyperdrive that caused whatever it is that keeps time dilation as a result of special relativity from happening to stop working, as such much time passed during his short journey due to special relativity as if you traveled close to the speed of light physically. I don't read much into the Star Wars hyperdrive however as it, IMO, is the most plot deviced FTL in the many science fiction things I watch (I do really like Star Wars though, just saying).

[Mr March]

Are you kidding me? Star Wars hasn't had half the opportunities to mess with FTL continuity that Star Trek has already amassed. Not to mention Trek's impressive record of general scientific debasement

[Master Dex]

Are you kidding me? Star Wars hasn't had half the opportunities to mess with FTL continuity that Star Trek has already amassed. Not to mention Trek's impressive record of general scientific debasement

I wasn't including all the other FTLs of Star Trek (like transwarp conduits, quantum slipstream, and all those other fun things Voyager came up with), most of which make less sense than warp drive itself. Remember now, warp drive was given an actual FTL theory by Miguel Alcubierre, aka the Alcubierre drive.

Nonetheless I've told you before I treat the science in Star Trek as a science more advanced and above what we currently understand in modern physics. Science and Physics is always changing, 100 years ago many of the things we take for granted today were impossible then. Just because it sounds like totally made up stuff now (which is what most of the stuff in Star Trek is, I know) doesn't mean it will always be that way. We may find a new understanding some day that makes the concept of FTL seem simple, but now the way we understand things, FTL is something of an impossibility that many physicists believe could take 1000 years or more to fully find a way to achieve.

Also in a bit of off-topicness I like to suggest a good read called Physics of the Impossible by Michio Kaku. He is one of my favorite scientists and this book was just absolutely fascinating. He basically takes a lot of the concepts, most of which appear in science fiction, that are pretty much deemed impossible by today's standards and then works through how they supposedly work. Then he categorizes each 'impossibility' as a Class 1, 2, or 3 impossibility. Class 1 being something that he believes could be possible within 100 to 1000 years from now, Class II being something possible perhaps 1000 or more years from now, and Class III being something that wouldn't be possible until millions of years from now or are just not possible ever. For reference FTL is listed by him as a Class II impossibility, which is where I got my number in the above paragraph.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Master Dex

[Mr March]

Who cares about the theory behind it? Stating that Star Wars FTL is the most "plot-device" ruled FTL is laughable. Just because Trek writers technobabble FTL tech more than others, doesn't mean they haven't horribly abused FTL continuity (which they have). The handling of fold technology in Macross looks like a poster child for proper FTL continuity in comparison to Trek. And the number of times Trek has abused FTL for plot purposes is more than Star Wars could ever hope to accomplish.

[Dynaman]

Who cares about the theory behind it? Stating that Star Wars FTL is the most "plot-device" ruled FTL is laughable. Just because Trek writers technobabble FTL tech more than others, doesn't mean they haven't horribly abused FTL continuity (which they have). The handling of fold technology in Macross looks like a poster child for proper FTL continuity in comparison to Trek. And the number of times Trek has abused FTL for plot purposes is more than Star Wars could ever hope to accomplish.

Too be fair, Star Trek has had Many Many more oppurtunities to mess with the FTL continuity.

To be fair, the MOST Plot Device driven FTL in SciFi is from Babylon 5, JMS flatly states that the ships go "Speed of Plot" and asks for no forgiveness on the point.

[Master Dex]

Who cares about the theory behind it? Stating that Star Wars FTL is the most "plot-device" ruled FTL is laughable. Just because Trek writers technobabble FTL tech more than others, doesn't mean they haven't horribly abused FTL continuity (which they have). The handling of fold technology in Macross looks like a poster child for proper FTL continuity in comparison to Trek. And the number of times Trek has abused FTL for plot purposes is more than Star Wars could ever hope to accomplish.

I really don't care though. It is just an opinion of mine. I don't really like the hyperdrive from Star Wars, but it serves the purpose of the plot very well. At the end of the day every FTL from any science fiction must always be taken with a grain of salt, you can't really weigh any specific one more than another. Though I am curious how you can rate a proper FTL when no such thing exists currently.... In any case I actually agree that the Macross space fold makes the most sense out of a lot of science fiction type FTLs... it is in part (not completely) what I based one of my own made up FTLs for a novel I am writing.

Lets not fight now my fellow mecha loving friend .

[Mr March]

We don't need a perfect FTL system to compare. It's enough to know that Trek abuses FTL the most next to it's contemporaries

Though I will say this much; episodic television, by virtue of time allotted, will require more fudging than other media formats.