Currently watching Macross 7

[Zinjo]

[lecture mode]

Zinjo, I humbly recommend investing some of the plethora of energy, that you appear to have due to your tangents and extrapolations, into learning Japanese. No, I don't mean becoming fluent, but I mean getting to the point where you can understand the topic when none is specifically said (par for the course with Japanese.) I think it will improve both the arguements you present herein, as well as refine your tangents and extrapolations along lines more consistent with what has been specifically stated in Macross. It should also tone down the rudeness that you display towards non-Japanese who learn the language and by their grace, make the effort to translate it into English for the rest of us. Capiche?

[/lecture mode]

I feel like I'm at work dealing with a fractious student >.<

[Rebuttal Mode on]

Sketchley, I humbly recommend you step off your self inspired high horse and tone down the condescending attitude you have toward those of us on these forums, whether we communicate in Japanese or not. That sir is far more rude than anything you are imagining I display toward any member here.

For someone who appears to truly want to come across as some sort of "expert" you bandy about credentials much like an ostracized child looking for acceptance or to be awarded some sort of extraordinary reverence, which will never happen.

Are you THAT insecure that this is how you must communicate?

Trust me I am not the only one who has found you condescending, rude and often pompous in your attitude and communications toward members. If you wish to share knowledge then do so, but don't expect us to bow down and pay you homage for sharing, as that is the purpose of these forums.

Maybe that is the attitude you must take with your students, but these forums are filled with your peers not your students, you may wish to keep that in mind.

We appreciate the information. If we question it, then that is a cue to better explain yourself, not an opportunity to back handedly debase anyone.

The key here appears to be that arrogant attitude that you "grace" us with your very presence here and believe me when I say, you are the only one who has that opinion about you.

Like everyone, your opinions are to be respected and what you share is appreciated, just keep that in mind when communicating with other members here. I know I am not the only one on these forums who has pointed this out to you.

Please keep your "teacher" attitude in the classroom where it belongs. Do YOU Capiche?

[Rebuttal Mode off]

Edited October 6, 2007 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Uhm, excuse me Zinjo, but uhm if it's like not specifically stated, than it is nothing.

Yes, that doesn't rule out the possibility that extrapolations could be true, but where your extrapolation leads to an entire fleet of piloted AFOS, I see a one-of-a-kind biomechanical autonomus AI that relies on a spiritia power source.

You "assumed" I was describing a "fleet", I said nothing of the sort. I said that a possibility exists that the unit was not as unique as we might believe. Squadrons, perhaps.

Yes, I know I'm not 100% correct in part or whole, but that's not the point. The point is that we must stick to what is specifically stated, and leave ourselves open to further revisions at a later date that clarify if there are, or are not things in the Macross Universe. (In this specific case a fleet of Birdmen... or not.)

Why "must" we?

I am fully aware and would agree with anyone who stated that my extrapolations would be superceded by any new official revisions made by the Macross production team.

I see no point in simply sitting on my hands waiting 2 years before anything new is revealed, or worse dissecting the minutia of what is strictly revealed in produced shows and translated literature. That's like choosing to be the librarian as opposed to a commentary writer. One is necessary but awfully boring compared to the other.

[azrael]

If you wish to take your interpretations as fact, that will be your choice. But those will be your interpretations and we are to take it with a grain of salt as with everybody else who makes an interpretation about something which is written.

Now this thread is about M7 and that is what we need to be focused on, so no more outbursts. Capiche? Good.

[charger69]

But how can we relate Macross Zero to Macross 7? That's my question.

AFOS and Protodeviln...

Edited October 7, 2007 by charger69

[JB0]

But how can we relate Macross Zero to Macross 7? That's my question.

AFOS and Protodeviln...

And the magical mystical power of song!

[Sumdumgai]

I don't like the M7 TV series 19s. The giant wing roots, itty-bitty wings, and all the other changes make me go: "bleagh". While the 19kai is closer somewhat in appearance to the prototype, the head is a big turn-off and I hate the tiny shield. The speaker pod system, and bright colors go without saying. I do like the 19P from M7 Dynamite though. It has the best parts of the prototype and 19kai.

Best valkyries were the VF-14s, VF-17s, VF-22s, and VF-5000s.

[Mr March]

I don't like the M7 TV series 19s. The giant wing roots, itty-bitty wings, and all the other changes make me go: "bleagh". While the 19kai is closer somewhat in appearance to the prototype, the head is a big turn-off and I hate the tiny shield. The speaker pod system, and bright colors go without saying. I do like the 19P from M7 Dynamite though. It has the best parts of the prototype and 19kai.

Best valkyries were the VF-14s, VF-17s, VF-22s, and VF-5000s.

I feel almost exactly the same way about the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur. Why even bother with forward swept wings if there is so little forward sweep? Might as well just have the normal swept back wing. The ornamental changes are all terrible as well, especially the "spire" shoulders and those awful ankles in battroid mode. But much like you, I'd put up with all that over a head unit with a mouth any day. It's a shame the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur design didn't convert well from prototype to mass-production the same way the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II did.

Among all the later VF-19 variants, the VF-19A from the Macross VF-X2 video game is my favorite (since it's almost a direct copy of the YF-19, but with a nice blue hull). Of the VF-19 variants beyond the A, I like the VF-19F in the blue/silver colors the best. Granted, the VF-19F has all the failings of the later VF-19 models, but the head unit is pure old school sexiness and it has the best looking mecha colors in all of Macross 7, IMO (with the possible exception of the VF-17 and Gamlin's VF-22).

[chrono]

I've never really liked the designs in M7 mainly because they just because too Metran with all of the curves. Toss in the healthy resemblance to Gundams and not even the somewhat interesting, though still very Patlabor, design was very good(looks more like a cop than anything).

[sketchley]

I'm of the opposite opinion; I think the M7 VFs are some of Shoji Kawamori's best VF designs. Mind you, I'm looking at them in artistic terms, and not in other terms. By this I mean simplicity of line. Kawamori-san has been able to relay the same shapes and spatial dimensions with significantly less lines.

[Sumdumgai]

I'm with you on favoring the VFX2 Ravens VF-19A Excalibur over the 19F/S models.

Although I dislike the color scheme of the VF-19P, I think that it looks the best after the 19 Prototype and 19A.

I hated how the VF-11s weren't just cannon fodder, but were just exploding devices with wings. It was like the universe hating the VF-11 after seeing it be so awesome in the first episode of M+. And the Pink Peckers almost made me bust my gut from laughing with disbelief.

[Mr March]

Oh, I thank the gods for Macross Plus. The VF-11's only moment to shine was found in that OVA series. Without Isamu going all Dirty Harry, the VF-11 would go down as bar none the worst mass produced Valkyrie in the whole Macross franchise. Still, IMO the VF-11 does reign as the most abused Valkyrie design in Macross and it takes the Protect Armor system (along with the death of a supporting character) to give the mecha even the smallest shred of credibility in Macross 7. But true to form, that VF-11 blows up too! I suspect the VF-11 is the most destroyed Valkyrie ever animated

[vermillion01]

Personally, I love the '11' but its the ford Pinto of valkyries

look at a pinto = BOOM

fly past a VF-11 (mac7) = BOOM

Edited October 8, 2007 by vermillion01

[JB0]

Oh, I thank the gods for Macross Plus. The VF-11's only moment to shine was found in that OVA series. Without Isamu going all Dirty Harry, the VF-11 would go down as bar none the worst mass produced Valkyrie in the whole Macross franchise. Still, IMO the VF-11 does reign as the most abused Valkyrie design in Macross and it takes the Protect Armor system (along with the death of a supporting character) to give the mecha even the smallest shred of credibility in Macross 7. But true to form, that VF-11 blows up too! I suspect the VF-11 is the most destroyed Valkyrie ever animated

Nonsense.

They only blew up 3 VF-11s in the entire series.

....

They just blew the first 2 up a LOT.

Seriously, I think the VF-1 was blown up more. You just didn't see it quite as often.

'Sides, at least the eject button worked right on the 11.

[Roy Focker]

The VF-11B is great Variable Fighter. The VF-11C on the other hand armor is made out of paper. I think the real problem was the pilots. In one episode Gamlin has to pilot a VF-11C. He not only lived but managed to shoot down a few guys.

[Sumdumgai]

Gamlin sucked the piloting potential out of all the other pilots. He just bled it off of them.

[VFTF1]

The VF-11 will soon be everybody's favorite mass produced VF when Yamato come out with it in 1/60 scale

VFTF1

[Zinjo]

But how can we relate Macross Zero to Macross 7? That's my question.

AFOS and Protodeviln...

And the magical mystical power of song!

It appears that the connection is predominately with the bio-engineered AFOS and the PD sharing similar weapons systems. One could say that the AFOS was spiritia powered, but that strikes me as more an assumption/implication than openly stated. Considering the EVIL series were powered by SD energy sources.

The Nome DNA was shown to act like a key to the AFOS as opposed to a power source. The ability to levitate rock with song could be a correlation, however it could also be a means by which Sara was put into a telekinetic trance. That too is left ambiguous.

[Zinjo]

I feel almost exactly the same way about the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur. Why even bother with forward swept wings if there is so little forward sweep? Might as well just have the normal swept back wing. The ornamental changes are all terrible as well, especially the "spire" shoulders and those awful ankles in battroid mode. But much like you, I'd put up with all that over a head unit with a mouth any day. It's a shame the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur design didn't convert well from prototype to mass-production the same way the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II did.

Among all the later VF-19 variants, the VF-19A from the Macross VF-X2 video game is my favorite (since it's almost a direct copy of the YF-19, but with a nice blue hull). Of the VF-19 variants beyond the A, I like the VF-19F in the blue/silver colors the best. Granted, the VF-19F has all the failings of the later VF-19 models, but the head unit is pure old school sexiness and it has the best looking mecha colors in all of Macross 7, IMO (with the possible exception of the VF-17 and Gamlin's VF-22).

I am no great fan of the Mac 7 variable fighters either, however to be fair the VF-19A, K & P were all atmospheric optimized fighters, hence the canards and actual swing wing capabilities. The VF-19D & S's were space optimized fightes without atmospheric canards and fixed wings (which makes sense from a cost point of view).

As far as I am aware the VF-1A's are still in service in the Mac 7 universe, however they are not seen in the Mac 7 show. The only atmospheric VF-19s shown in the Mac 7 productions are the "K" and the "P".

[Mr March]

I know the reasons behind the changes. I'm just saying they look awful. And the forward sweep doesn't make sense to me even given the space-conversion explanation. Why bother designing such tiny FS wings if there is almost no FS? Seems silly, but I guess Kawamori just didn't want to lose what very little of the original YF-19 wing was left.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

Does anyone know if the clear dome under the shell is semi-permeable? In a lot of episodes, the Varauta, Valgo's pink things, Sivil, etc seem to fly into the City as if the dome wasn't there. In the first episode, exploding fighters in space seemed to disturb the atmosphere in the city. But the dome never seemed damaged. When the Varauta attacked other ships, they had that recycled scene where the Elgerzornes were shooting the windows.

[Zinjo]

Seems silly, but I guess Kawamori just didn't want to lose what very little of the original YF-19 wing was left.

You're prolly right...

Though, I may need to side by side compare, but doesn't the VF-19S have more of an MAXL aspect to the fuselage as opposed to the VF-19A, something SK was enamoured with at that time?

Edited October 9, 2007 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Does anyone know if the clear dome under the shell is semi-permeable? In a lot of episodes, the Varauta, Valgo's pink things, Sivil, etc seem to fly into the City as if the dome wasn't there. In the first episode, exploding fighters in space seemed to disturb the atmosphere in the city. But the dome never seemed damaged. When the Varauta attacked other ships, they had that recycled scene where the Elgerzornes were shooting the windows.

Doesn't Sivil and Valgo's "pink things" have the ability to self-fold?

[Mr March]

Does anyone know if the clear dome under the shell is semi-permeable? In a lot of episodes, the Varauta, Valgo's pink things, Sivil, etc seem to fly into the City as if the dome wasn't there. In the first episode, exploding fighters in space seemed to disturb the atmosphere in the city. But the dome never seemed damaged. When the Varauta attacked other ships, they had that recycled scene where the Elgerzornes were shooting the windows.

I don't think so. No indication is ever given that kind of technology exists in Macross. The Varauta, Sivil and others probably entered City 7 by force, like we've seen in all other Macross shows (SDFM, DYRL). I was under the impression the City 7 interior disturbances were due to small decompressions caused by minor hull breaches from the battles in the space around the ship.

[Sumdumgai]

Yikes if it were an energy field, thing of what would happen if the generator or whatever got shorted out. Instant city decompression.

[Mr March]

You're prolly right...

Though, I may need to side by side compare, but doesn't the VF-19S have more of an MAXL aspect to the fuselage as opposed to the VF-19A, something SK was enamoured with at that time?

Ack, my website is always just one update behind these questions

If by stretched along the long axis, then yes. This is why the YF-19 appears to have such a long "neck" in comparison to all the later VF-19 models. The VF-19 forward fuselage seems to be about the same width as the YF-19 at it's widest point (depending upon your definition of where the fuselage ends and the wing begins), but extends further forward and backward than the prototype and the VF-19A. Also, the forward/upper sections of the engine/leg units (as well as the intakes themselves) appear to be truncated, giving the impression of slightly more forward fuselage/wing surface area just ahead of the forward ventral intakes.

Correspondingly, the truncated engine/leg/intake is also why all the VF-19 Battroid modes appear to have short and fat legs. As you have no doubt guessed by this point, this is another thing I hate about the VF-19 design

Here's some comparison pictures, just for you Zinjoy

[Zinjo]

Ack, my website is always just one update behind these questions

Correspondingly, the truncated engine/leg/intake is also why all the VF-19 Battroid modes appear to have short and fat legs. As you have no doubt guessed by this point, this is another thing I hate about the VF-19 design

Here's some comparison pictures, just for you Zinjoy

Cool thanks!

Edited October 9, 2007 by Zinjo

[s001]

Man, the YF-19 looks far cooler than the VF-19's in that comparisons!

[Mr March]

Actually, for all the VF-19 gets wrong, there are a few design changes I think are actually improvements of the YF-19. I think the center dorsal section of the Fighter mode looks much better on the VF-19. Sadly, it does lead to those silly ornamental shoulders in Battroid mode, but the Fighter mode benefits from those smooth sections forward of the dorsal engine nacelles and the rear nose looks sleeker. I also have to say that while there's nothing wrong with the YF-19 head unit, I like VF-19S head unit just as much and I think the VF-19F head unit is better than both of them. Now, I would never deny my preference for muted colors on a mecha, but as far as unrealistic colors go on a military machine, I love the VF-19F colors. I'd take the Macross Plus colors any day, but if I had to go with the coloring book schemes of Macross 7, the VF-19F blue and silver looks great.

It's not all bad

[Warmaker]

Yeah, I love the longer, thinner look of the YF-19 over the regular VF-19.

By any chance, appearance-wise, did the initial production of the VF-19 look the same as the YF-19 flown by Dyson?

The reason I ask is I still have yet to build my Hase YF-19 but I don't want to do it in the traditional Macross Plus scheme, but want to make it belonging in a regular UN military unit, being one of the first to receive it. I also want to do it correctly with Macross canon if it's covered (and canon through the Macross Plus thru 7 is a weakpoint for me).

[Mr March]

According to the VF-X2 game, the VF-19A Excalibur looks like a blue colored YF-19. I don't know if it's canon, but that's what it is without a doubt. Tenjin Hidetaka's Art Works of Macross book features the blue YF-19 from VF-X2 and it's also called the VF-19A. All the design alterations don't happen until the VF-19F as far as I can tell.

[VFTF1]

Well, I just finished torrenting some of the episodes, and went ahead and watched them - albeit I am going from back to front, since 36-38 were the ones that I watched (others still downloading)...

And here's what I have to say....

Hm... not bad.

Probably because Bassra wasn't very prominent in the episodes I watched; in fact, Exodor was - which was cool.

Also, whenever Basra is pitted against the Vampire dude with the monocol, it takes away some of his steam.... and thus makes him more watchable.

I also believe that Monocol Vampie Dude sings better than Bassra; I liked it when he joined in the singing.

Gremlin - the biggest protodevilin, reminds me of Mucor...Munstor...oh - that Mucozord from Inhumanoids - Mu...Magma....urr...they look the same.

Exodor is kind of fun to watch.

Mylene has a really FLAT ASS! I don't know what Gam...G...the G-pilot dude...sees in her... and so totally understand why Bassra ignores her all the time. I'd ignore her too.

The MECHA....

I don't like it:(

Sad to say but the Fire Bomber VF looks like a bootleg of the YF-19.

It's not even the mouth, it's just the whole thing - it just looks like a second-class bootleg.

The Vampires have interesting valks. I like those Nightmares.

The VF-11Bs are also cool.

Myria and Max are completely unlike what I remember them as being - particularly Max.

Maybe it was just the episode I watched; but Max was always very noble in SDFM, and suddenly he treats Miria with a distance that I just can't quite understand.

Even if he's tired of his wife - I would remind everyone that Max was always a gentleman, and this had little to do with love. He could fall out of love with Miria, the passion could die out, but Max was always a gentleman - and I didn't find his exchange with Myria to be very...well...gentlemanly - it was more like a Military Leader blowing off a Civilian Leader... But then again - maybe I'm over-reacting... it's the whole conflict of interest thing...

Max vs Gloval ... the comparison had to be made - and ultimately Gloval comes out on top.

Why?

1) The pipe

2) Hitting his head on the door

3) The interaction with the bridge crew.

Maybe I'll see this in the entirety of the series - but the interaction with the bridge crew in M7 is kind of none-existant. I guess this is because the Fire Bomber Band is so important and everything kind of centers on them - but that's a pity...

Exodor as advisor and big green head is really exciting and a great idea. I don't quite understand why he's not a Miclone though... just for kicks or is there some reason - like maybe that his brain can't shrink without damage or something?

Hmm... what else?....

Power to the Universe! Power to the Lovers!

I liked that song

VFTF1

[s001]

Actually, for all the VF-19 gets wrong, there are a few design changes I think are actually improvements of the YF-19. I think the center dorsal section of the Fighter mode looks much better on the VF-19. Sadly, it does lead to those silly ornamental shoulders in Battroid mode, but the Fighter mode benefits from those smooth sections forward of the dorsal engine nacelles and the rear nose looks sleeker. I also have to say that while there's nothing wrong with the YF-19 head unit, I like VF-19S head unit just as much and I think the VF-19F head unit is better than both of them. Now, I would never deny my preference for muted colors on a mecha, but as far as unrealistic colors go on a military machine, I love the VF-19F colors. I'd take the Macross Plus colors any day, but if I had to go with the coloring book schemes of Macross 7, the VF-19F blue and silver looks great.

It's not all bad

Well I agree it's not all bad but I like the more realistic style of macross plus even when the M7 VF-19 looks sleeker than the YF-19 as you say.

[s001]

According to the VF-X2 game, the VF-19A Excalibur looks like a blue colored YF-19. I don't know if it's canon, but that's what it is without a doubt. Tenjin Hidetaka's Art Works of Macross book features the blue YF-19 from VF-X2 and it's also called the VF-19A. All the design alterations don't happen until the VF-19F as far as I can tell.

I think the VF-19F is the mass production version of VF-19. isn't it?

[Mr March]

I think the VF-19F is the mass production version of VF-19. isn't it?

The VF-19F is the one I posted on the previous page: My post on previous page, with colored line art

Technically the VF-19 is the mass production model of the YF-19. That means the VF-19A is a mass produced version as well. There's very little information, but I suspect the VF-19A was mass produced in the first four years of production, then the VF-19F, VF-19P and VF-19S came along some time later. So there's probably lots of VF-19As.

[Zinjo]

The VF-19F is the one I posted on the previous page: My post on previous page, with colored line art

Technically the VF-19 is the mass production model of the YF-19. That means the VF-19A is a mass produced version as well. There's very little information, but I suspect the VF-19A was mass produced in the first four years of production, then the VF-19F, VF-19P and VF-19S came along some time later. So there's probably lots of VF-19As.

I suspect you are right, because in VF-X2 the VF-19A is prominately shown as appearing nearly indentical to the YF-19 and that game takes place in 2050.

The VF-19K & P are probably the latest incarnation of the VF-19A, however whether the base model of those newer production fighters is still called the "A" isn't really mentioned.

The VF-19F & VF-19S "Blazer" fighters seem to be more recent models considering they have all the new avionics and are space optimized unlike the VF-19A, K & P's.

As for the VF-19's 2045 era, I agree that the K & P's were much more aerodynamic compared the the YF-19, which fits into the idea of being optimized for atmospheric flight. Particularly in the undercarriage where MAX Lift principles were utilized. I like the look of the YF-19, but the later production fuselages seem much more in line with the fighter's actual combat role (dispite the anklets they have. ) ...IMO.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Zinjo