Currently watching Macross 7

[Keith]

Actually it's the fact tha Basara doesn't care for the lives of his compatriots that pisses me off, you can be against violence, but that doesn't prevent you from intercepting missiles and/or shielding allies.

Anyway

Gamlin FTW!

Basara refusing to use violence doesn't even remotely mean that he doesn't care about anybody. It's because he cares about "everyone" that he strives to resolve conflicts withou violence.

[Kamjin 639]

Basara refusing to use violence doesn't even remotely mean that he doesn't care about anybody. It's because he cares about "everyone" that he strives to resolve conflicts without violence.

I forsee the coming of a Gundam Wing-style philosophy-of-war debate...

Edited April 22, 2007 by Kamjin 639

[Garrick]

I arrived at that and i nothing wrong with it. I don't get why Basara often just keeps singing while UN Spacy pilots keep getting spiritia drained and/or shot down without being able to bail out while he could try to decoy the enemy or shield others, wich isn't exacly violent. With that some more pilots would have made it back home for sure.

[Valkyrie addict]

noone really knows why Basara sings, he doesn't sing to stop war, he doesn't sing to help other, he doesn't sing to stop the enemy, he just sings cause he wants to, only reason he did it in battle was because they gave him and indestructible valkyrie and everyone would listen to him since everyone would be wondering what he's doing and tragicly have the last thing they hear in their cannon fodder lives was Basara's stupid songs

[RDClip]

noone really knows why Basara sings, he doesn't sing to stop war, he doesn't sing to help other, he doesn't sing to stop the enemy, he just sings cause he wants to, only reason he did it in battle was because they gave him and indestructible valkyrie and everyone would listen to him since everyone would be wondering what he's doing and tragicly have the last thing they hear in their cannon fodder lives was Basara's stupid songs

Not True

Basara sings for himself

The only reason he ever gave was "I want to see how far my music will take me", kinda a selfish, stupid reason

[Keith]

I forsee the coming of a Gundam Wing-style philosophy-of-war debate...

7 was before Wing.

[Dio]

The only reason he ever gave was "I want to see how far my music will take me"

Didn't he want to move a mountain with his music?

i.e. he wanted his music so powerful, it could accomplish the impossible. A sort of "believe in yourself and follow your dreams" motif.

Unlike Gamlin, whose message seemed to be more "stay on the straight & narrow" in order to succeed at life (an equally valid message).

Did I just turn Mac7 into a morality play?

Edited April 25, 2007 by Dio

[RDClip]

Didn't he want to move a mountain with his music?

i.e. he wanted his music so powerful, it could accomplish the impossible. A sort of "believe in yourself and follow your dreams" motif.

Unlike Gamlin, whose message seemed to be more "stay on the straight & narrow" in order to succeed at life (an equally valid message).

Did I just turn Mac7 into a morality play?

To me the series always came back to Basara's arrogance. Everything he did was for his own self-righteous sense of satisfaction.

[Keith]

Everything everyone does is for their own selfrighteous satisfaction to a degree, just because Basara chooses to sing instead of shoot at people doesn't make him any more self righteous than anyone else, it just makes his methods different.

[Valkyrie addict]

the problem is that Basara never changes in the whole series/OAV/movie, he's always doing the same...

all the other character grew up in a way, and it's a bit hard (at least for me) to take that someone so arrogant and selfish is the only character who seems to be idolize in the whole series up to the point that he dies and comes back to life by people singing...talk about cheesy, hell, even the Protodevlin at the end realized what they could do and not sort to spiritia stealing, everyone in the series changed except the most annoying character?? it's nonesense

[Vic Mancini]

the problem is that Basara never changes in the whole series/OAV/movie, he's always doing the same...

all the other character grew up in a way, and it's a bit hard (at least for me) to take that someone so arrogant and selfish is the only character who seems to be idolize in the whole series up to the point that he dies and comes back to life by people singing...talk about cheesy, hell, even the Protodevlin at the end realized what they could do and not sort to spiritia stealing, everyone in the series changed except the most annoying character?? it's nonesense

First off I just want to say that I loathed Mac 7....especially dynamite.

It's my least favorite series by far, but I have to defend Basara's characther.

The core of Basara's character is his unwaivering conviction and commitment to what he believes in. He believes he can stop wars and even literally move mountains with his music. I don't think he was arrogant so much as he was just 1000% committed to what he was trying to achieve with his songs. He refused to settle, he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision. He was brutally honest, up-front, blunt and annoying, but I still didn't find him arrogant or hate his character. Nor do I think it would've been right for his character to change.

That's my take, anyway.

[RDClip]

First off I just want to say that I loathed Mac 7....especially dynamite.

It's my least favorite series by far, but I have to defend Basara's characther.

The core of Basara's character is his unwaivering conviction and commitment to what he believes in. He believes he can stop wars and even literally move mountains with his music. I don't think he was arrogant so much as he was just 1000% committed to what he was trying to achieve with his songs. He refused to settle, he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision. He was brutally honest, up-front, blunt and annoying, but I still didn't find him arrogant or hate his character. Nor do I think it would've been right for his character to change.

That's my take, anyway.

Therein lies the problem with him, it's always about himself. Look at the quote again: "I want to see how far MY music will take ME." Everything he did was for himself, he had no view of the bigger picture. The few times he tried to actually save people was when they where right in front of him, he never thought about the people that could've been suffering or dying because he was too damn stubborn.

[protodeviln]

Quote from Vic Mancini

"he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision"

the irony is...... if you call not carring or better yet showing complete indifference, about the citizens of macross 7 being sucked dry of spiritia ( his fans included) , or even showing up late or sometimes a no show, to his own shows - which is odd because he supposed to be 1000% committed to his music right? or even abandoning his fans and friends to go take some peyote and find his spiritia animal in the desert - then yes......he doesn't sweat the little things. Seems to me that Basara, is a good example of how the needs of the one, outweigh the needs of the many.

With that said - I do like M7 but not a big fan of Basara's quite shallow and self centered character. Just my 2 cents - got any change?

Edited April 25, 2007 by protodeviln

[Vic Mancini]

Quote from Vic Mancini

"he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision"

the irony is...... if you call not carring or better yet showing complete indifference, about the citizens of macross 7 being sucked dry of spiritia ( his fans included) , or even showing up late or sometimes a no show, to his own shows - which is odd because he supposed to be 1000% committed to his music right? or even abandoning his fans and friends to go take some peyote and find his spiritia animal in the desert - then yes......he doesn't sweat the little things. Seems to me that Basara, is a good example of how the needs of the one, outweigh the needs of the many.

With that said - I do like M7 but not a big fan of Basara's quite shallow and self centered character. Just my 2 cents - got any change?

Fans have nothing to do with music. Fame and committment to fans are trivial to Basara and should not necessarily go hand in hand with music. He's on his own wave length and does things only when his heart is in it because that's the only time the music is pure. That's not selfish behavior unless you expect different from others. I don't recall Basara ever busting chops the same way Mylene always ragged on him for being flakey. [i could be wrong, though. I've only watched Mac 7 once.]

Basara's whole character is based on being uncompromising. He's an idealist who does things on his terms. If he can't be a musician or a Soundforce pilot on his terms, he chooses not be a part of it at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, actually. ...maybe I'm crazy.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Zinjo]

Fans have nothing to do with music. Fame and committment to fans are trivial to Basara and should not necessarily go hand in hand with music. He's on his own wave length and does things only when his heart is in it because that's the only time the music is pure. That's not selfish behavior unless you expect different from others. I don't recall Basara ever busting chops the same way Mylene always ragged on him for being flakey. [i could be wrong, though. I've only watched Mac 7 once.]

If you sing a song and nobody listens is it still music?

Is that why he demanded that everyone "Listen to my song!"? It wasn't a choice by the listener or by winning over an unwilling audience like Minmay, but a demand, with intrusive speaker devices to boot.

Actually he did bust Mylene's chops on several occasions, just not over the same issues as she. She often ragged on him for being selfish, irresponsible, and rude (kind of ironic coming from her).

Basara's whole character is based on being uncompromising. He's an idealist who does things on his terms. If he can't be a musician or a Soundforce pilot on his terms, he chooses not be a part of it at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, actually. ...maybe I'm crazy.

Well nothing wrong except for an incredibly childish attitude. "If I don't get my way, I just won't play with you anymore..."*pout*

There is no question about his commitment to his ideals, however one can be commited and still show a measure of consideration to those around them or particularly those they are affecting (fighter pilots anyone?)

Is Basarh arrogant?:

Well one definition states:

"1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.

2. characterized by or proceeding from arrogance: arrogant claims."

He did display characteristics of an arrogant personality, some will justify and accept it, others will not.

[Valkyrie addict]

only reason Fire Bomber and Basara became famous was from what happened on the battlefield, 'cause people didn't really like their music at the start of the series, only after seeing what happened when Basara sang if that they started digging the damn thing

also, one of Basara's most selfish acts was when he totally forgot about everything and everyone and just kept singing to err...Syvil when she was sleeping on the woods for like half the series, while everyone still went to battle and knew they needed Basara to help them but he still didn't give a damn

and by the way, Basara didn't save the universe, it was Syvil at the end

"ANIMA SPIRITIA... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... !!" hahaha!

[Keith]

Again, fans are inconsequencial to music. If your'e playing music, and no one's there to hear it, there is definately still music.

-Sivil saved Basara, Basara saved everyone else.

-Basara did compromise on one thing, he eventually accepted the need for a military presence, i.e. Gamlin, and in return he only asked that the military not try to screw with what he was doing.

-Basara never put anyone at risk through what he did, fact of the matter is, the military were non-effective against the protodevelin. When he went off to ressesitate Sivil, he did so because awakening the percieved enemy was part of his purpose all along.

Basara/Sound Force was never a tool to be used by the military against the Protodevelin, had they been handled on those terms, it never would have worked, and they would have been just as useless ass the Jamming Birds.

[Sumdumgai]

I hated the jamming birds. I liked the heavier armored look of the VF-11D customs, but I hated the jamming birds a lot. Not as much as I hate Mylene though. I wished so much she would be sucked into the air intake of her valkyrie, or someone else's valkyrie.

[wldr]

I hated the jamming birds. I liked the heavier armored look of the VF-11D customs, but I hated the jamming birds a lot. Not as much as I hate Mylene though. I wished so much she would be sucked into the air intake of her valkyrie, or someone else's valkyrie.

If anyone in that show was going to get sucked into an air intake of a valkrie, it would have to be Mylene's just on the off chance that the absolutely hidious batroid form of that thing would never be seen again. I mean you never know, something as big as a person going threw the intake might destroy it, we could hope at least.

[Vic Mancini]

If you sing a song and nobody listens is it still music?

Yes, it is still definitely music, but in Basara's case no...you're right...it's not the same. Basara's whole purpose of making music is to touch the hearts of others, so people have to be listening. But in Basara's case, it doesn't matter if it's one person or 30,000. It's a bigger victory for him to touch the heart of Gigil, or Sivil, or even that biker chick, than to preach to the converted masses.

Also, I was talking more about the press junkets and arranged studio collaborations. That stuff definitely does not go hand in hand with music. That goes hand in hand with a music career which is not really what Basara was about. He was about the purity of music as a means of touching the soul. And if you're heart isn't into when you sing in that moment, it's definitely not music. Basara's heart being into it is a bigger priority than keeping a commitment to fans, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's an artist doing things on his own terms and it may be career suicide, but it's still his choice of when/where to sing, not the fans'.

Actually he did bust Mylene's chops on several occasions, just not over the same issues as she. She often ragged on him for being selfish, irresponsible, and rude (kind of ironic coming from her).

I remember him teasing her a lot, but that's different from what she was doing. She ragged on him for being late, no-showing to interviews, and not being more interested in making Fire Bomber a commercial success. It's been a while since I watched Mac 7, but I seem to remember Basara giving Mylene the "do whatever you want / makes no difference to me" attitude whenever she threatened to act aloofish like Basara.

And that's just my point. Basara's behavior isn't selfish unless he expects different from others. It's not like he's telling everyone to be on time, and to practice more, and to take things more seriously. I think he gives everyone the same freedom that he expects to be given in return.

Well nothing wrong except for an incredibly childish attitude. "If I don't get my way, I just won't play with you anymore..."*pout*

I don't think that's a childish attitude at all if you remove the *pout*. Basara had a clear vision of what he wanted to do. There's no reason to compromise your vision if you don't have to. If Mylene or the military have their own visions of what they want, then that's their thing, but Firebomber is Basara's vision and he wants to keep it pure.

He did display characteristics of an arrogant personality, some will justify and accept it, others will not.

I don't know...I think I still disagree. It's not like he thought he was above anyone else. It's not like he thought he was God's gift to the universe and went on bragging about how he was such a talented musician. He was just a free spirit that refused to compromise on his ideals. At least, that's how I percieved him. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Zinjo]

Yes, it is still definitely music, but in Basara's case no...you're right...it's not the same. Basara's whole purpose of making music is to touch the hearts of others, so people have to be listening. But in Basara's case, it doesn't matter if it's one person or 30,000. It's a bigger victory for him to touch the heart of Gigil, or Sivil, or even that biker chick, than to preach to the converted masses.

Ahhh, the old "Is it art if it isn't accessible" argument... I have this argument with my brother the "fine arts" graduate all the time...

If no one listens to the "music" (I've heard "artist's" vision of music and it was nothing short of caucafanous self inflated drivel!) then who is "touched" by it? If the singer must demand and audience to listen to their "music vision" and even force it upon them with speaker pods then exactly how does one "touch" another against their will? Isn't that called assault or rape?

I agree with Valkyrie addict who stated they were largly an unknown, barely heard group until Basara started interfering in military operations. Thus the method of his vision is either flawed or convoluded.

Also, I was talking more about the press junkets and arranged studio collaborations. That stuff definitely does not go hand in hand with music. That goes hand in hand with a music career which is not really what Basara was about. He was about the purity of music as a means of touching the soul. And if you're heart isn't into when you sing in that moment, it's definitely not music. Basara's heart being into it is a bigger priority than keeping a commitment to fans, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's an artist doing things on his own terms and it may be career suicide, but it's still his choice of when/where to sing, not the fans'.

Then why did he want a band? Equally questionable is why did the band members stay with him with his attitude? I won't even bother mentioning the question about him getting a state of the art VF-19 Kai to play with... I have no issue with anyone taking that type of attitude, however don't "expect" or "demand" anyone to listen to you or go out of your way to involve others to do follow this self indulgent quest.

And that's just my point. Basara's behavior isn't selfish unless he expects different from others. It's not like he's telling everyone to be on time, and to practice more, and to take things more seriously. I think he gives everyone the same freedom that he expects to be given in return.

Sure he is. He "expects" people and the Varuata to listen to him whether they want to or not and will force the Varuata if necessary. He expects the band to practice and take the music seriously. He doesn't care about those providing for him (the fans & the military) which makes the circumstances around his character rather fantastic in nature and without much thought to reality.

I don't think that's a childish attitude at all if you remove the *pout*. Basara had a clear vision of what he wanted to do. There's no reason to compromise your vision if you don't have to. If Mylene or the military have their own visions of what they want, then that's their thing, but Firebomber is Basara's vision and he wants to keep it pure.

I've seen plenty of kids do exactly that, so I stand by my statement.

I don't know...I think I still disagree. It's not like he thought he was above anyone else. It's not like he thought he was God's gift to the universe and went on bragging about how he was such a talented musician. He was just a free spirit that refused to compromise on his ideals. At least, that's how I percieved him. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

He was the opitome of the starving artist notion, except he was given an advanced variable fighter plane...

[protodeviln]

In the episode "Virgin Bomber"

Veffidas says to Maylene ( the one out of 2 or 3 times she actually speaks)

"There's no point in arguing with Basara. You can't try to be rational with him."

True - his attitude is quite inexplicable and irrational at times...many times......just because you have your own ideals and will not compromise on them, does not mean you have to be an a$$hole to those around you. Basara does come off like this in the series at times.

Even Gamlin asks Basara "don't be so reckless" after telling Basara, "I think the only hope we have against protodeviln is your singing."

Basara takes the compliment happily about this coment from Gamlin on his singing. Basara does promise Gamlin, that he will not be so reckless. Basara knows he's reckless, he interefered many times with Gamlin's duty as a soldier. In my opinion, putting Gamlin and the rest of Diamond Force into mortal danger.

Anyway....I think both Zinjo and Vic raise/make very valid points on/of Basara's character.

Come on guy's......power to the rainbow!?..............no?........damn......ok......

Edited April 27, 2007 by protodeviln

[Valkyrie addict]

I think the main problem here about Basara's character is that in the whole Macross 7 franschise we are never explained why he is the way he is, we just see a pathetic flashback of a little kid with a guitar trying to move a mountain (WTF?) and how err... the pink pecker black guy took care of him later

we get no insight into his character, one of the many things unresolved from 7 toguether with that weird love triangle and Max and Milia relationship

[Zinjo]

I think the main problem here about Basara's character is that in the whole Macross 7 franschise we are never explained why he is the way he is, we just see a pathetic flashback of a little kid with a guitar trying to move a mountain (WTF?) and how err... the pink pecker black guy took care of him later

we get no insight into his character, one of the many things unresolved from 7 toguether with that weird love triangle and Max and Milia relationship

Well essentially Basara was written like a super hero, immutable and ultimately with little growth.

It made him too fantastic to be believed and often irritating to watch because everyone else around him grew and we learned about them, but he barely did - if at all. He has been described on these boards as boring or more of an unxplained "event" rather than a character.

[NeoverseOmega]

Forgive the long rant, but I just have to respond to this.

I just finished watching Macross 7 myself. Valkyries with boobs and giant organic creatures flying through space against glowing singers did make me cringe, but at the same time, I found some elements pretty interesting. Heh, if nothing else I have to give props to any character that can provoke this much discussion and debate, that certainly makes him more "real" in some ways than most.

Just my take on Basara - he made me think of the concept of a koan (stories, often seemingly absurd, that attempt to teach a spiritual truth by asking the listenener to experience what the teller has). I think that the reason Basara was interesting enough to the writers to put together a lengthy series with him at its center is that Basara came across a spiritual truth (true at least within the confines of the show) in music. He doesn't want to just tell people "Hey, peace man - war, it's just like wrong and stuff. Let's go smoke this joint together". He thinks if he can force people to listen to music that has in its core the feeling that he's been clinging to, eventually they will not simply agree to his philosophy, they will change inside emotionally and spiritually. That's why when he approaches someone in the streets he doesn't say "Hey, I lead this great band, come and listen" - he SINGS like a crack-head in the shower.

Basara doesn't want people to agree with him intellectually or philosophically, he wants them to FEEL whatever it is that told him that passion and love is so important that nothing else - including flying missiles that could end his singing career in a heartbeat- is important. He believes that feeling will make people simply not want to hurt each other. I suspect that yes, the writers intended him to come off as a steadfast and dedicated pseudo-prophet. While I can see how it can be interpreted as selfish, I don't think that's the interpretation the creators were aiming at - although I think they'd be perfectly happy with the idea that he seems selfish until you get what he's up to.

Of course, you could also interpret what he's up to as woefully misguided - after all, this "spirituality" assumes that there is no such thing as a being that really is pure evil, or beyond the capacity for compassion or at least empathy. If the Macross universe wasn't in it's heart of hearts almost insanely optimistic, Basara would just be singing himself and a whole lot of other people into oblivion. I think a lot of people instinctively get that and have a feeling that if people absorbed Basara's attitude they'd just smile and sing while some genocidal maniac wipes out the planet. They will absolutely hate this character, no matter how much sense he makes in his own universe.

On the other hand there are people who really believe that if you can somehow make everyone feel compassion for each other, then maybe war and murder and all the man made terrors of the earth have a chance of vanishing. These people I think will instinctively like Basara, even if they don't quite get him.

As a bit of a writer myself, I'm interested in the intent of the character within the world that was made for him. He's flawed enough to be human, complicated enough to make you think about him later on, and I think he works very well as a vehicle for writers beliefs. Basara can only really be selfish if his understanding is WRONG. If it's RIGHT and everything he does is guided by the feelings that eventually manifest themselves in these funky spiritia weapons, its not that much different than a prophet being guided by whatever diety inspires him - and as long as he is true to that (I suspect THAT is supposed to be the feeling or "spirit" that underlies the music, not just the music itself, which is probably why he doesn't use traditional notation or need to practice around others. Basara needs, instead, to stay in tune with his "god" internally - which may require him to abandon everyone else for his forty days in the desert, again a very common prophetic trope) he may actually be seen as somewhat self-less.

Well, I'm done taking up space for now - does this seem like a fairly accurate analysis? (Heh, this is Macrossworld, I'm sure I'm inviting some pretty savage dissections which I'm sure will be interesting.)

[Vic Mancini]

(I've heard "artist's" vision of music and it was nothing short of caucafanous self inflated drivel!)

Hmmm...I'm detecting an axe to grind.

Ahhh, the old "Is it art if it isn't accessible" argument... I have this argument with my brother the "fine arts" graduate all the time...

Why did you put fine arts in quotations?

If no one listens to the "music" then who is "touched" by it?

In Basara's case, nobody. That's my point.

If the singer must demand and audience to listen to their "music vision" and even force it upon them with speaker pods then exactly how does one "touch" another against their will?

Ask Basara. He succeeded each and every time he repelled a battle with his music.

Is a political activist being selfish when he/she's picketing outside of a military/government building? Are their signs "raping" your eyes?

I think you're reaching with the spin you're trying to put on Basara. I don't see anyway you can actually find his actions selfish just because he forces the Varuata to listen to his music. He repells attacks again and again, and increases the risk on his own life by not resorting to the use of lethal force. He cares about the lives of the enemy almost more than his own. If anything he's selfless on the battlefield.

Thus the method of his vision is either flawed or convoluded.

His vision was to stop wars by touching the hearts of the soldiers fighting...both the enemy and the military. It only became convoluted when people tried to force expectations on him that go hand in hand with music careers and military obedience.

Equally questionable is why did the band members stay with him with his attitude?

Because Ray and the Zentran, [i forget her name], understood Basara's vision and supported it. Ray even gave him the Valk.

Mylene was the only one who had an issue with Basara 99% of the time, and that stemmed from her wanting to be in a commercially successful rock band and she thought that was what Fire Bomber was all about. It took her the course of the series to come around and figure out what the purpose of their music was. She was free to leave the band at any time if it wasn't her thing. Just like Basara is free to leave Soundforce or take a haiatus from his band.

Sure he is. He "expects" people and the Varuata to listen to him whether they want to or not and will force the Varuata if necessary.

I'm sure if the Varuata came with peaceful music instead of guns, Basara would happily listen to their songs. But instead they came with murder and spiritia-reaving. Basara had to do what was necessary to stop the fighting. ...Forcing people to listen to music is a small price to pay for the results it achieved.

He expects the band to practice and take the music seriously. He doesn't care about those providing for him (the fans & the military) which makes the circumstances around his character rather fantastic in nature and without much thought to reality.

He may not care about satisfying the military and his fans at the expense of the purity of his vision/music, but he certainly cares about their well-being. The well-being of the Mac 7 fleet, as well as the well-being of the Varuata and the Protodeviln, are very important to Basara. It's the whole reason he flies out into the middle of every battle and tries to stop the fighting with peaceful methods.

I've seen plenty of kids do exactly that, so I stand by my statement.

???

Adults make the same choice every day. I don't expect you to do things you don't want to do just like I expect you to allow me to make my own choices. Hypothetically, if I'm your boss and I require you to perform certain actions that you don't believe in, it's certainly your choice to leave and do your own thing. That's so far from being childish I don't even know where to begin.

Basara is not obligated to do anything he doesn't want to. It's his music.

He was the opitome of the starving artist notion, except he was given an advanced variable fighter plane...

He was more of a prophet archetype than a starving artist. He had a clear vision of the way things should be, and he was unwilling to compromise his vision just because other people put expectations on him that he didn't ask for.

Like I said in my last post, everyone interprets things differently, so you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I just never saw Basara as being arrogant or selfish. I don't even think Mylene did by the end of the series.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Keith]

Basara takes the compliment happily about this coment from Gamlin on his singing. Basara does promise Gamlin, that he will not be so reckless. Basara knows he's reckless, he interefered many times with Gamlin's duty as a soldier. In my opinion, putting Gamlin and the rest of Diamond Force into mortal danger.

The recklessness Gamlin was speaking of was in regards to Basara's safety. The only one who put Diamond Force in jeopardy was Gamlin, when he ignored orders to leave Basara be, and focus on his own objectives.

[wldr]

Both characters, Basara and Gamlin, do plenty of things that can be seen as reckless, however one most also look at the results of their actions. In the end their separate acts of recklessness turned out to be for the best. If they had not folowed their own personal codes and done what they each thought needed doing, the battle as a whole would more than likely ended quite differently. What would have occured if Gamlin hadn't risked getting busted for forcably giving Basara access to his fighter when he was being kept from it for "needed repairs"? If he had not taken that risk, Basara would have more than likely been excluded from that battle all together, and the fight would have gone much worse. Granted, Gamlin did not get into trouble for that action, but I would say that the only reason that he didn't is because of the end results of his actions. That is one of the few things that Basara and Gamlin have in common, the willingness to take personal risks in order to do what they think needs doing regardless of what someone else's opinion might be. Basara is just a bit more obvious about it.

Edited April 27, 2007 by wldr

[Zinjo]

Hmmm...I'm detecting an axe to grind.

Why did you put fine arts in quotations?

Because too often "artists" are looking for publically funded hand outs for what they deem as art, that I wouldn't put in front of a rabid dog.... Crap is crap, don't expect me to pay for it indirectly, is my position on such things. If an artist can make a living with their "art" great, otherwise get a part-time job....

Is a political activist being selfish when he/she's picketing outside of a military/government building? Are their signs "raping" your eyes?

If said activists are shoving their signs into my car that is considered assault and / or tresspass and both are just as illegal as rape. I didn't invite their slogans or wish to hear/read them so shoving them in my face against my will no matter how dedicated they are or noble they believe is their cause, is still an attack on me and mine.

I think you're reaching with the spin you're trying to put on Basara. I don't see anyway you can actually find his actions selfish just because he forces the Varuata to listen to his music. He repells attacks again and again, and increases the risk on his own life by not resorting to the use of lethal force. He cares about the lives of the enemy almost more than his own. If anything he's selfless on the battlefield.

OK, do you see what you wrote? Quote, "just because he forces the Varuata to listen to his music". If I forced myself into your car and proceeded to play music you hated or started doing whatever I wanted in the name of a "vision" or "cause" I personally believed in, would I be considered unselfish because I believed my efforts were "pure"? I don't believe I am shoehorning my position as much as you may be, my friend.

His vision was to stop wars by touching the hearts of the soldiers fighting...both the enemy and the military. It only became convoluted when people tried to force expectations on him that go hand in hand with music careers and military obedience.

On the contrary. The methods of his vision was no less violent in practice than the military's, the principle difference was the mortality rate. He didn't entreat any enemy to his music, but rather forced them to endure it. That isn't "touching" anyone, it's forcing your will upon another...

I'm sure if the Varuata came with peaceful music instead of guns, Basara would happily listen to their songs. But instead they came with murder and spiritia-reaving. Basara had to do what was necessary to stop the fighting. ...Forcing people to listen to music is a small price to pay for the results it achieved.

Well history has proven that mankind can justify just about everything so long as "their results" are acheived.

The ends do not always justify the means, which is one of my points.

He may not care about satisfying the military and his fans at the expense of the purity of his vision/music, but he certainly cares about their well-being. The well-being of the Mac 7 fleet, as well as the well-being of the Varuata and the Protodeviln, are very important to Basara.

His altruism is not in question. But his methods are...

It's the whole reason he flies out into the middle of every battle and tries to stop the fighting with peaceful methods.

They aren't peaceful, they are non-lethal, there is a difference.

Adults make the same choice every day. I don't expect you to do things you don't want to do just like I expect you to allow me to make my own choices. Hypothetically, if I'm your boss and I require you to perform certain actions that you don't believe in, it's certainly your choice to leave and do your own thing. That's so far from being childish I don't even know where to begin.

But does Basara leave "everything" behind? No, he manages to take a military owned aircraft with him everytime he leaves. He refuses to cooperate, yet doesn't leave, why? He is certainly free to leave and continue his vision on his own, but he doesn't and instead impedes others, why?

Basara is not obligated to do anything he doesn't want to. It's his music.

He was more of a prophet archetype than a starving artist. He had a clear vision of the way things should be, and he was unwilling to compromise his vision just because other people put expectations on him that he didn't ask for.

OK, now I am loosing respect for this debate when messianic delusions are beginning to be bandied about.

Like I said in my last post, everyone interprets things differently, so you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I just never saw Basara as being arrogant or selfish. I don't even think Mylene did by the end of the series.

True enough, that's what debates are all about....

[Vic Mancini]

If said activists are shoving their signs into my car that is considered assault and / or tresspass and both are just as illegal as rape. I didn't invite their slogans or wish to hear/read them so shoving them in my face against my will no matter how dedicated they are or noble they believe is their cause, is still an attack on me and mine.

The glaring difference with your example being that you'd be minding your own business which is very different from what the Protodeviln were doing.

Are you telling me that if you invaded my home in the middle of the night, turned my family into mindless vegetables, and started attacking me with weapons, and all I did was dodge your attacks and sing songs for you until chose to leave, that I'd be the selfish and inconsiderate one? I'd be guilty of assault/tresspass and equal to a rapist? Are you joking?

If you attacked me and got off with nothing but a song being sung at you, you'd be lucky. That's a microscopic toll to pay for your actions.

OK, now I am loosing respect for this debate when messianic delusions are beginning to be bandied about.

Mes·si·ah

1. also Mes·si·as (mĭ-sī'əs) The anticipated savior of the Jews.

2. also Messias Christianity Jesus.

3. messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.

A messiah is a liberator of slaves. The Varuata were the enslaved colonists of the Megaroad 13 and Basara was their savior. Did you miss the whole Anima Spiritia thing?

You called Basara the opitome[sic] of the starving artist notion, and that's inaccurate. He wasn't making music/art for music/art's sake. Even as a child he had bigger ambitions for his music than to make art. Music was simply Basara's vehicle for the spiritial liberation he was creating. It's evident that Basara was written and portrayed much more like a prophet/messiah in the body of a musician than he was an artist.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[NeoverseOmega]

Perhaps the problem is the choice of terms - but it is easy to see parallels to prophets in the desert and wandering brahmins to Basara. There is also a pretty big divide between what I think the writers intended for this character and how some audiences are taking it. For better or for worse Basara is a vehicle for a spiritual philosophy that turns out to be true within the universe he inhabits. Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations. So as a "prophet" with some pretty obvious allusions in the anime - whether his time in the desert or trying to make a mountain "uproot itself and be planted in the sea" Basara WILL be driven by his "deity" (so to speak) to behave in ways that other people not only will have problems understanding but may be threatened by. Heh, prophets are also notorious for being kind of forceful about their ideas, particularly in the western tradition. At least Basara doesn't seem to want to present destruction as the only alternative to listening to his singing (although some people might prefer it!).

Within the Universe that the writers constructed, Basara turns out to be right and his actions are vindicated, but that's the rather shockingly positive universe of Macross. After all, it has always hinged around hearts winning out over guns (especially if those hearts are willing to wield guns in their defense).

Unfortunately it's hard not to project that on our world and that will cause some pretty disparate reactions. If on some level you believe that there is some universal sense of compassion that can be tapped into that has the power to end war and murder than Basara's technique seems justified. On the other hand, if a person believes that there IS such a thing as real evil, or that some people or beings are just utterly incapable of compassion, then Basara is a starry eyed idiot that teaches his audience to sing and smile and let the genocidal maniacs just plow them over.

Heh, I had a pretty good rant on the page just before, but as always I was the last one so it disappeared. Oh well. I'll try not to bore you two gentleman too much. However, I have to admit, this IS an interesting discussion. The writers had to have done something right to create a character that is capable of sustaining this much controversy and debate.

[sketchley]

Agreed. In the last couple of pages, the debate has turned interesting and more or less relevant.

(...)

Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations.

(...)

That is not so much Eastern mysticism, but an actual teaching tool used in the classroom (at least here in Japan.) Teaching manuals* present a problem to the students, and notes for the teacher to give hints to the students to help them overcome the problem. However, by and large, the students are left to their own devices (usually in groups) to figure out not only the solution to the problem, but the means to reach the solution to the problem.

It kind of flies in the face of the assumption that Asian students are unquestioning drones, IMHO...

* This is mostly applicable to math related subjects (science, physics, etc..) Though with English lessons, we have a tendency to introduce the language, and at the end of the lesson, point out the page numbers with the actual grammatical-linguistic explanations.

Edited April 29, 2007 by sketchley

[NeoverseOmega]

I've read about that teaching technique - it makes so much sense. After all, I know enough about memory to realize that you are going to have a much easier time remembering a concept that you were involved in constructing - active learning tends to work much better than simple regurgitation. Besides, the more neural pathways that were used to engage a concept, the more easily it can be used and adjusted for different circumstances. If a concept is just given to you as a rule, it's harder to understand just how and where else that concept will be useful, particularly in situations that appear radically different.

Not to shoot to far onto a tangent though.

Really, I think it illustrates part of the difference between KNOWING something and really UNDERSTANDING it in a deeper sense. I was originally thinking of koans (hope that doesn't illustrate my "I know just enough about these things to put a foot in my mouth" stage of education), but that attitude does kind of explain why Basara doesn't just tell anyone "this is what I'm doing and why". If they don't "get it", then just talking at them probably isn't going to help. He wants them to "discover" whatever spiritual awakening he had. Not that I don't think Macross 7 handles some of this in an almost embarrassingly awkward fashion, but some of the underlying concepts are surprisingly ambitious.

Or perhaps it's just a reflection of why its acceptable for a hero to behave that way in a Japanese cartoon, whereas in the U.S. he would come of as a real wacko. Heh, you learn a lot about people in the way the react to his character too, which is probably one of the things I find most interesting about all of this.

That and I suspect that if the Sound Force Valks had avoided the Glam Rock look and the Protodeviln were portrayed in a way that was actually frightening, it would have been a lot easier to enjoy - but again, some of this might be cultural as well. The styles of modern American Rock have as a whole rejected that look, so what makes us cringe might have seemed like something a Rock and Roll Star would do with his personal plane in Japan. Haven't we had celebrities with bright pink limos with gold rims? I'd like to say the same might apply to the Protodeviln, but from what little I know of Japanese mythology and themes, they don't seem like they much apply.

It's funny how the more you look at a piece of another persons creation, you end up discovering elements of yourself in the interpretation. And elements of the other people discussing it of course.

[Zinjo]

The glaring difference with your example being that you'd be minding your own business which is very different from what the Protodeviln were doing.

Are you telling me that if you invaded my home in the middle of the night, turned my family into mindless vegetables, and started attacking me with weapons, and all I did was dodge your attacks and sing songs for you until chose to leave, that I'd be the selfish and inconsiderate one? I'd be guilty of assault/tresspass and equal to a rapist? Are you joking?

My comments are in direct response to your comment about picketing outside a military/government building. Now you are throwing in a totally different scenario to justify your position. Don't try to dismiss my point with a different example from what it addressed. If that was your point all along then you should have made it initially.

Mes·si·ah

1. also Mes·si·as (mĭ-sī'�™s) The anticipated savior of the Jews.

2. also Messias Christianity Jesus.

3. messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.

A messiah is a liberator of slaves. The Varuata were the enslaved colonists of the Megaroad 13 and Basara was their savior. Did you miss the whole Anima Spiritia thing?

He is a person with a unique ability identified by the PC as "Anima Spirita". Those with this ability enabled the PC to combat and ultimately imprison the PD, I don't recall anywhere where the PC called or considered their Anima Spiritia forces to be Messiahs in any way... This may be your interpretation of what he is, but in context with the story he is only one of two people recognized to possess this ability, Mylene is the other.

You called Basara the opitome[sic] of the starving artist notion, and that's inaccurate. He wasn't making music/art for music/art's sake.

Then where has his "pure music vision" you were talking about earlier now gone?? He was a starving artist for his music, I saw no job, or any means of income outside the gigs he performed. He lived in a "forgotten" slum of the colony ship where it was pretty evident most who lived there were likely squatters.

Even as a child he had bigger ambitions for his music than to make art. Music was simply Basara's vehicle for the spiritial liberation he was creating.

What liberation? How would he know they'd encounter the PD? How would he know they'd encounter brainwashed Megaroad 13 colonists? Who was he liberating and from what? I think you are giving this character far more depth than was originally there.

It's evident that Basara was written and portrayed much more like a prophet/messiah in the body of a musician than he was an artist.

He was one of the last two known people possessing the Anima Spritia ability described by the PC. That is all. He stumbled upon the fact that it was effective against these unknown attackers. There was no predetermination or fore knowledge of his abilities very often associated with those of the Messianic persuation. He was simply being an arrogant prig, disrupting military defensive formations while bellowing at targets. He fancied himself the 2040's version of Minmay (who inspired him) and in the process endangered the defensive forces as well as the colony fleet. When his abilities inadvertently triggered the withdrawl of the enemy forces, neither he or the military could really understand why it happened. It just did.

Perhaps the problem is the choice of terms - but it is easy to see parallels to prophets in the desert and wandering brahmins to Basara. There is also a pretty big divide between what I think the writers intended for this character and how some audiences are taking it. For better or for worse Basara is a vehicle for a spiritual philosophy that turns out to be true within the universe he inhabits. Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations. So as a "prophet" with some pretty obvious allusions in the anime - whether his time in the desert or trying to make a mountain "uproot itself and be planted in the sea" Basara WILL be driven by his "deity" (so to speak) to behave in ways that other people not only will have problems understanding but may be threatened by. Heh, prophets are also notorious for being kind of forceful about their ideas, particularly in the western tradition. At least Basara doesn't seem to want to present destruction as the only alternative to listening to his singing (although some people might prefer it!).

Within the Universe that the writers constructed, Basara turns out to be right and his actions are vindicated, but that's the rather shockingly positive universe of Macross. After all, it has always hinged around hearts winning out over guns (especially if those hearts are willing to wield guns in their defense).

Unfortunately it's hard not to project that on our world and that will cause some pretty disparate reactions. If on some level you believe that there is some universal sense of compassion that can be tapped into that has the power to end war and murder than Basara's technique seems justified. On the other hand, if a person believes that there IS such a thing as real evil, or that some people or beings are just utterly incapable of compassion, then Basara is a starry eyed idiot that teaches his audience to sing and smile and let the genocidal maniacs just plow them over.

Heh, I had a pretty good rant on the page just before, but as always I was the last one so it disappeared. Oh well. I'll try not to bore you two gentleman too much. However, I have to admit, this IS an interesting discussion. The writers had to have done something right to create a character that is capable of sustaining this much controversy and debate.

Damn fine points sir. I have little doubt some of the "spirit" of the character's motivations are likely lost in translation...

[NeoverseOmega]

Thanks! I tried to step away from my personal reaction to the character and think - hmmm, as a writer, why would I make him behave in this way? When I started thinking about what little I know of Japanese culture (and just mythic symbolism) it started to make a little more sense.

Basara is a very loaded character, and I think he's meant to be. The Anime itself supports him and the philosophy he represents. If you buy into the logic of the Anime he's pretty selfless (after all, if he really is "spiritually enlightened" then he doesn't HAVE to know that the protodeviln will show up. He just has to believe that if they encounter anything out there while exploring space, he will be able to move it's heart) if not, well he's a delusional prick. Not much wiggle room there. It definitely forces people to decide what they believe.