Currently watching Macross 7

[eight_car]

Polls that only show it when the viewer REALLY REALLY wants them to.

The BIG thing stopping M7(and most other Macross projects) is Harmony Gold, IMO. I'm pretty sure someone would've brought it over just to leech a bit off of the "sequel to the first half of Robotech" angle if they could've gotten away with it.

YES!

Planet Dance was okay once or twice. But it really got beat to death with the series as-is.

Well reading your post gave me an idea for a really wicked biased poll .....

Which do you hate most ...

1) Roblowtech

2) Mac7

haha

I won't really make that as it was a joke that popped into my head when I read your post and wold most likely just tick people off who hadn't read this thread.

[Zinjo]

I'll give you points for that creative interpretation. HOWEVER, in English, pop music is different from rock music, and even though rock music could become popular music (ergo pop-music in the most loose sense), it is generally and exclusively classified as rock music (often a sub-genre of it, and not the all-inclusive, general, interpretation of rock music.)

Therefore, the point stands: Macross 7, specifically the music of the main group, Firebomber, is J-rock, not J-pop.*

I could care less about people's opinions on it (kiddie, or otherwise,) just that they accurately or adequatly describe it.

*Of course, if you classify bands like L'Arc~en~Ciel and X Japan as J-pop, then feel free to classify Macross 7, specifically Firebomber's music, as J-pop. Nevermind the legions of rock fans that will be upset in the process.

Well in the 60s and 70s all popular music of the day was rock music and it was also pop music because there was no real distinctions or categories, with advent of labelization being "Disco" and there was no turning back after that. The 21st century has seen an obsessive compulsive need to categorize and compartmentalize everything, particulary music. So being a self professed music whore (I like what I like no matter what category it falls under), trying to distinguish between a popular rock song and a "pop" song (whatever that is supposed to be...) is irrelevant to me.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Not disagreeing. I don't think anyone really believes HG has what they say they have, but everyone believes they can make it too expensive to be worth their effort.

If I had the cash, I'd do it out of spite!

Not that I hate RT or HG so much, but more because I hate bullys and HG as been a bully to the Macross fans and importers for far too long.

They removed it totally? I wasn't following things too closely.

Last I'd heard, they were going to be using a redesigned lopsided kite.

Yep, at least in the movie they did.

The symbol is now a redesigned Mars Base insignia with what looks like the olympic rings on it for the REF logo.

They didn't use Macek's SDF-3, but went with a more Mospeada styled design. Looks boxy as hell, but it's what they apparently wanted.

It was kinda cool to have Chase Masterson in it, not only is she one hot cougar, but she can actually sing too!

[The Flying Monkey]

It was kinda cool to have Chase Masterson in it, not only is she one hot cougar, but she can actually sing too!

A hot cougar? In animation? She could have been voiced by Anne Ramsey for all that's worth.

Edited February 13, 2007 by The Flying Monkey

[Ginrai]

Macek version of the SDF-3? Macek didn't do the mecha design for Sentinels, Tatsunoko's Ammonite sister studio, the same who did the designs for Southern Cross.

[s001]

I believe that if mac7 had not been created with the intention that was it, all fans we would love it.

just my two cents.

[danth]

I'm currently watching the original Macross (I've only seen the Robotech version until now), and I noticed many hints about the Protoculture's powers that foreshadow what happens in Macross 7 (which I've already seen).

The hints occur in conversation between Exsedol and Britai. They were talking about the power of song being related to the Protoculture, and thought it had something to do with the Macross's force field barrier. They also mention the Protoculture's ability to sap their enemies' fighting spirit. This is exactly what happens in Macross 7 -- Firebomber sings to create an energy barrier, which completely blocks the Protodeviln attacks. And of course Basara's songs sap the enemies' will to fight.

This is all the more reason to like Macross 7. It makes total sense after watching the original series, so I'm not sure why people have such a problem with it. It carries on the true theme of Macross: Defeating a more powerful enemy by winning them over.

Edited February 21, 2007 by danth

[Lonewolf]

I'm currently watching the original Macross (I've only seen the Robotech version until now), and I noticed many hints about the Protoculture's powers that foreshadow what happens in Macross 7 (which I've already seen).

The hints occur in conversation between Exsedol and Britai. They were talking about the power of song being related to the Protoculture, and thought it had something to do with the Macross's force field barrier. They also mention the Protoculture's ability to sap their enemies' fighting spirit. This is exactly what happens in Macross 7 -- Firebomber sings to create an energy barrier, which completely blocks the Protodeviln attacks. And of course Basara's songs sap the enemies' will to fight.

This is all the more reason to like Macross 7. It makes total sense after watching the original series, so I'm not sure why people have such a problem with it. It carries on the true theme of Macross: Defeating a more powerful enemy by winning them over.

The problem with Macross 7 IMHO is that the first episodes are all very redundant. Fire Bomber start a concert, the Varuta attack, Basara goes out in his vf-19, bickering with Gamlin during the battle and the Varuta leave after collecting some spiritia.

[kung flu]

The problem with Macross 7 IMHO is that the first episodes are all very redundant. Fire Bomber start a concert, the Varuta attack, Basara goes out in his vf-19, bickering with Gamlin during the battle and the Varuta leave after collecting some spiritia.

Yeah, the first half of the show was mostly all that, but in the second half, i thought it got better and because of that, i don't totally hate the show except for most of the singing, the story improved.

[Lonewolf]

I don't hate it either. I had a lot of fun watching it. I just thought that the 1st half of the show was to repetitive.

[Valkyrie addict]

Basara's songs saps my will to go on too, seriously!

[myk]

After all of these years I tried, I really TRIED to watch it, but I couldn't get past episode 9. Sorry '7 fans, you don't win a supporter here...

[Keith]

I'm currently watching the original Macross (I've only seen the Robotech version until now), and I noticed many hints about the Protoculture's powers that foreshadow what happens in Macross 7 (which I've already seen).

The hints occur in conversation between Exsedol and Britai. They were talking about the power of song being related to the Protoculture, and thought it had something to do with the Macross's force field barrier. They also mention the Protoculture's ability to sap their enemies' fighting spirit. This is exactly what happens in Macross 7 -- Firebomber sings to create an energy barrier, which completely blocks the Protodeviln attacks. And of course Basara's songs sap the enemies' will to fight.

This is all the more reason to like Macross 7. It makes total sense after watching the original series, so I'm not sure why people have such a problem with it. It carries on the true theme of Macross: Defeating a more powerful enemy by winning them over.

Don't forget Bodolza's reaction to seeing the "Shao Pai Lone" footage, recognizing Kaifun's powers in the film.

[kung flu]

After all of these years I tried, I really TRIED to watch it, but I couldn't get past episode 9. Sorry '7 fans, you don't win a supporter here...

When i first started watching it, i was put off by the characters, the singing and the whole spiritia thing. But when i start watching a series, i tend to finish it. In this case i practically forced my self to keep watching to the finish and ended up liking the show, but not all that much.

[danth]

The problem with Macross 7 IMHO is that the first episodes are all very redundant. Fire Bomber start a concert, the Varuta attack, Basara goes out in his vf-19, bickering with Gamlin during the battle and the Varuta leave after collecting some spiritia.

I can't disagree. Crap, I still can't believe they squeezed 50 episodes out of that story.

[Lonewolf]

I can't disagree. Crap, I still can't believe they squeezed 50 episodes out of that story.

Well around episode 20 or so things do get better and the story deepens a bit.

[jenius]

This is all the more reason to like Macross 7. It makes total sense after watching the original series, so I'm not sure why people have such a problem with it. It carries on the true theme of Macross: Defeating a more powerful enemy by winning them over.

It takes more than a carried over theme to make something good or likeable. Finding a quote in the original series that supports the fact the Protoculture had the ability to weaken the Zents does nothing to make Mac7 good. No one is arguing that Mac7 isn't part of the Macross universe... we all agree that it is (I think). What some of us disagree on is how much it sucks. That quote from the original series does not make Basara believable or likeable, it doesn't make the notion of valks with faces and guitar controls plausible/reasonable/good, it doesn't make sailor moon reject character designs good, etc. etc.

Edited February 22, 2007 by jenius

[Zinjo]

Personally I believe it is mostly coincidence, considering SK was a junior member of the team and only wrote the outlines of the episodes as well as the storyboards.

The details were filled in by the script writers, with input from the director.

I seriously doubt Kawamori gave it THAT much thought as he was just starting out and was eager to prove himself in the industry, hence why he divorced himself from the franchise for a decade after DYRL and was only drawn back in by a deal do do his test pilot story as a Macross title.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Zinjo

[danth]

It takes more than a carried over theme to make something good or likeable. Finding a quote in the original series that supports the fact the Protoculture had the ability to weaken the Zents does nothing to make Mac7 good. No one is arguing that Mac7 isn't part of the Macross universe... we all agree that it is (I think). What some of us disagree on is how much it sucks. That quote from the original series does not make Basara believable or likeable, it doesn't make the notion of valks with faces and guitar controls plausible/reasonable/good, it doesn't make sailor moon reject character designs good, etc. etc.

You got me there.

I should have been more careful and said, "I don't see why some Macross fans have a problem with spiritia in general or the tactic of singing at an enemy to defeat them." The complaints you listed are totally valid...but maybe you can explain the "sailor moon reject" bit to me.

[Keith]

You got me there.

I should have been more careful and said, "I don't see why some Macross fans have a problem with spiritia in general or the tactic of singing at an enemy to defeat them." The complaints you listed are totally valid...but maybe you can explain the "sailor moon reject" bit to me.

It occurs to me that either A: these people haven't seen sailor moon, or B: they're just taking pot shots.

[sketchley]

I think it's all of the above. The character designs by Mikimoto in Macross 7 are some of his best - simple, clear, and cute. Though, I do agree that some of them are less than desirable (Basara.) But we should keep in mind that Mikimoto is essentially a freelancer to this job, and he only produced what he was told to do.

I think his work should be judged more along the lines of 'look what he created given his limitations' as opposed to 'man, he was solely responsible for the characters in Macross 7.'

Anyhow, Jenius, you may think that Macross 7 sucks, but not everyone does. Boiling the arguement down to 'how much it sucks' isn't a good summation of the debate, as it completely ignores the opinions of those who don't think it sucks, though don't necessarily think that it is a great anime either.

[jenius]

The complaints you listed are totally valid...but maybe you can explain the "sailor moon reject" bit to me.

I've said I'm no fan of Mac7 before but in this instance I was just writing a rambling list of the things people tend to bash Mac7 for, I don't really want to argue the points (I don't want to be considered an M7 bashing troll, I just wanted to point out that the statement made didn't make logical sense to me). If you think I'm trying to cop out or something let me know and I'll deliver another surmon on the suckitude of M7 .

Boiling the arguement down to 'how much it sucks' isn't a good summation of the debate, as it completely ignores the opinions of those who don't think it sucks, though don't necessarily think that it is a great anime either.

There is my opinion, which is right, and your opinion, which sucks. Nah, just kidding, but yes, I did choose the rhetoric I did to make it clear where I stood on the matter. I think the people aware of how much it sucks can probably have a healthy intelligent debate on quantifying the level of suck. People who refuse to acknowledge how terrible it is are just a lost cause. Yes, i'm still kidding... but yes, I'd still write it exactly the same way if I had to do it over again.

[danth]

I think it's all of the above. The character designs by Mikimoto in Macross 7 are some of his best - simple, clear, and cute. Though, I do agree that some of them are less than desirable (Basara.) But we should keep in mind that Mikimoto is essentially a freelancer to this job, and he only produced what he was told to do.

I think his work should be judged more along the lines of 'look what he created given his limitations' as opposed to 'man, he was solely responsible for the characters in Macross 7.'

Mikimoto only did the original designs. Some other guy cleaned them up for animation (i.e. made them simpler and faster to draw to save money).

[Zinjo]

I should have been more careful and said, "I don't see why some Macross fans have a problem with spiritia in general or the tactic of singing at an enemy to defeat them." The complaints you listed are totally valid...but maybe you can explain the "sailor moon reject" bit to me.

Those expecting a more mature story in the veins of SDFM, DYRL and Mac Plus tend to have issues with the idea that Spiritia is SK's version of a "magic battery" (to compare it to RT).

It was a rainbow sunshine ray that made everyone / everything better. Capable of shielding pilots from the destructive power of a buster cannon blast as well as other physical properties that stretched the idea of "suspended disbelief" to it's very limit.

Now as a kiddie show that works for the target audience in mind, but to those who prefer the more mature yarns told by Kawamori, Mac 7 tends to grate on us.

The fairly "cartoonish" (in a Hanna Barbera sense) designs of the PD also take away from the perseption of their malevolence and actual threat to the galaxy, but that would be my personal opinion in that regard.

[jenius]

And I would say all of that was very well said Zinjo.

[Dampiel]

I still say it's better than Robotech... Before anyone starts in on me keep in mind that I actually like Robotech.

[jenius]

I still say it's better than Robotech... Before anyone starts in on me keep in mind that I actually like Robotech.

In some respects it's definitely better than Robotech. In many respects it definitely is not. I appreciate Robotech's limiting its version of protoculture to a resource but the haphazard way it's been employed is less than ideal. Still, a resource plays very well to today's society whereas the whole spiritia thing and the increasing level of spirituality just is not my cup of tea. I would gladly rather re-watch Shadow Chronicles than the first three or four episodes of Mac7.

[Dampiel]

See that's one of the things that has always bothered me about Robotech. Even as a king the whole Proto-Culture as an energy source just seemed odd. I do agree that Kawamori has gotten too spiritual with Macross Zero but 7 never came off that way for me.I can see how the first five or six episodes would get on some people's nerves.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Dampiel

[jenius]

LOL, Robotech does a terrible job with Protoculture in the original series and it's no joke, even the young kings <sic> of the world can tell something ain't right with it. It's supposed to be a MacGuffin that doesn't really matter but it's too integral, mysterious, and nebulous to work that way. By the time New Gen ends it seems to have a clear definition as a clean and potent power source derived from a flower. The Invid being creatures that are capable of harnessing that power through biological means whereas all other races do it via technology (and that seems to be a theme carried by Shadow Chronicles). Trying to take that back from New Gen through The Masters and then through The Macross Saga just doesn't seem to work. So yeah, Robotech has nothing but issues there.

Macross7, on the other hand, removing Basara and the silliness employed, does have quite a coherent plot that could actually have been excellent if portrayed differently (with different characters and individual events). The exploration of the Protoculture's history, their puppet war, a weapon of tremendous power that gets out of hand, that's all good stuff. I think this refers back to what Danth pointed out, there is a good basis within the original Macross for a later story covering the ground Macross7 does and it can all be unified nicely (unlike Robotech).

Where Mac7 then goes on to fail is its ultimately silly portrayal of all the events that transpire right down to the silly look of some of the protodevlin themselves. Many of the characters are best described as entirely silly (and don't get me wrong, I'm all for one or two silly characters as comic relief). So now you have all these silly characters flying around using a silly super power to defend the universe against the only guy in anime that I think is a hot chick. Erm... yeah, I guess I just wanted Macross to grow up with me... not get more childish as I got older (and that's not to say I don't understand the business decision, just a personal preference thing).

Edited February 24, 2007 by jenius

[Zinjo]

Well the new direction RT is taking is very refreshing and much more respectable than how the show started. Hijacking other series' and rewriting them into something different is not respectable IMO.

I don't hate RT, but I resent HG's retardation of the Macross franchise in the West. Instead of milking it they chose to sit on it and not let anyone else see the real show until they needed capital to fund their own projects.

[s001]

I think it's all of the above. The character designs by Mikimoto in Macross 7 are some of his best - simple, clear, and cute. Though, I do agree that some of them are less than desirable (Basara.) But we should keep in mind that Mikimoto is essentially a freelancer to this job, and he only produced what he was told to do.

I think his work should be judged more along the lines of 'look what he created given his limitations' as opposed to 'man, he was solely responsible for the characters in Macross 7.'

Anyhow, Jenius, you may think that Macross 7 sucks, but not everyone does. Boiling the arguement down to 'how much it sucks' isn't a good summation of the debate, as it completely ignores the opinions of those who don't think it sucks, though don't necessarily think that it is a great anime either.

I agree with that, the character designs are cool, Mikimoto is one of the best character designers in anime, but the mac7 character's personalities are just annoying.

I agree with your last comment too, We don't have to ignore what the mac7 fans think; but I dare you to watch the macross 7 movie finale and tell me that mac7 don't sucks!

[Lonewolf]

...snip...

I agree with your last comment too, We don't have to ignore what the mac7 fans think; but I dare you to watch the macross 7 movie finale and tell me that mac7 don't sucks!

I'm a macross fan periode. Meaning I love all of the macross shows. Some are better than others, but IMHO none suck.

[Star Dragon]

While I'll agree that it's probably the worst Macross series, to me it did have an interesting outtake with the whole spiritia concept (think the Macross version of the Force). Of course the characters were way too shallow to justify the episode count, the little plus sequences were nice but simply not enough.

They really needed to flesh out the character's backgrounds more. Not only would this have given deeper meaning to their actions, but it would have better reattached fans to the legacy characters and bonded us more to the new ones. Sadly they missed the mark.

Overall I like Macross7 in a fluff way (I really like the music, I have probably every M7 song known to man, but GOD the English album sucks ass!)

Edited February 28, 2007 by Star Dragon

[Keith]

What are you talking about? Macross 7 was 100% pure fleshed out character stories & background, aside from Basara, who is left intentionally a mystery.

[chrono]

Ok after not actively ignoring M7, other stuff needed watching, I finally got around to watching the first disc's worth. Sweet animation work and nice OP(why is it that Macross has some of the best 3D still lol!), but damned are the characters out right annoying! However there are moments when the secondary character shine with mature writing. I swear that the drummer has more character then Basara, who really comes off as the typical male storyteller in a H-game.

M&M fighting like any older couple would is somewhat refreshing because it not only adds some realism but also gives homage to the internal debates that Macross Saga had.

I do have a question though.... Does it get any better or does it still stumble along?