sketchley Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Ironically that's the usual argument used to dismiss Macross II - it was a corporate made sequel made to cash in on DYRL. But I think there isn't a lot of new ground to cover on Macross 7. If you have not watched then go watch it. It has it's own groove and you either buy in and go for the ride or you don't. None of this should be taken too seriously. We're talking about cartoons with giant robots here! Fully agreed. If one hasn't seen the series in it's entirety (excluding the movie, encore episodes, and OVA series), one can't really comment (beyond the "from the few episodes I've seen..." point of view, and not "the story in it's entirety" point of view.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Mylene grows a lot in Macross 7. Her bust didn't. Ba dum chi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Never accept juice from strangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Her bust didn't. Ba dum chi. If Emilia is any indication, then they will! As for 7 being coorperate, I'd say it's far from it. It breaks from the norms of the genre, was at its time one of the biggest musically driven shows, and even today, remains to be up there, and reflects Kawamori's concepts far more than anything a coorperation would churn out. While it could be argued that 7 fans just try to justify criticism with "theories," it could just as easily be argued that detractor's simply don't like it because of its out of the box pacifist nature, & 100% ready to go hero, who isn't screwed up in some way or another. I will concede that 7 is a super robot show, in a mecha candy coating, but given I love both genre's, I've no problem with that. Each Macross series afterall does take a different tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 So now Macross 7 isn't really like everything else after all? Haven't seen this many circles since geometry class Nonetheless, this is all variation on the same old theme (or theory, as it were) and a failure to listen. But as I wrote, fortunately it's only some Macross 7 fans. Most seem to genuinely accept the criticisms, but are able to enjoy Macross 7 without character assassination of the critics. That respect is really all that can be asked to result from a difference of opinion. I will say this for Macross 7; in spite of poor product in general, the show does enjoy the honor of some good mecha design. The VF-17 is a lot of fun, the VF-11C Protect Armor was great, the VF-11D sans-sound tech is very nice, the VF-22 rocks and last but not least, some of the spaceship designs are very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 So now Macross 7 isn't really like everything else after all? Haven't seen this many circles since geometry class Nonetheless, this is all variation on the same old theme (or theory, as it were) and a failure to listen. But as I wrote, fortunately it's only some Macross 7 fans. Most seem to genuinely accept the criticisms, but are able to enjoy Macross 7 without character assassination of the critics. That respect is really all that can be asked to result from a difference of opinion. I will say this for Macross 7; in spite of poor product in general, the show does enjoy the honor of some good mecha design. The VF-17 is a lot of fun, the VF-11C Protect Armor was great, the VF-11D sans-sound tech is very nice, the VF-22 rocks and last but not least, some of the spaceship designs are very cool. Whatever, I big enough to let you think you're right if that's what you insist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 This isn't a playoff game. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a contest. My logic is sound and if your theories are faulty, others can't be blamed for stating the obvious contradictions. The supposedly intolerable M7 bashing days are long gone from these forums, so maybe it's time to stop treating every difference of opinion like you're in a pissing contest. A little courtesy for the members you're in "discussion" with would serve you better than tooth-and-nail attempts to win "arguments" or trying to patronize your "opponents." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 This isn't a playoff game. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a contest. My logic is sound and if your theories are faulty, others can't be blamed for stating the obvious contradictions. The supposedly intolerable M7 bashing days are long gone from these forums, so maybe it's time to stop treating every difference of opinion like you're in a pissing contest. A little courtesy for the members you're in "discussion" with would serve you better than tooth-and-nail attempts to win "arguments" or trying to patronize your "opponents." We should adopt the motto of some Gundam forums: "It's all Macross. It's all good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Ironically that's the usual argument used to dismiss Macross II - it was a corporate made sequel made to cash in on DYRL. But I think there isn't a lot of new ground to cover on Macross 7. If you have not watched then go watch it. It has it's own groove and you either buy in and go for the ride or you don't. None of this should be taken too seriously. We're talking about cartoons with giant robots here! There is no argument that Mac II was a corporate attempt to cash in on the persistent Macross fanbase, because it was. Artistically it stayed within the established Macross universe of the day (with a few exceptions) as well as the established tone of SDFM and DYRL. Unfortunately it didn't have the same caliber of complex storytellers found in the Studio Nue stables. The writers of that show failed to engage the audience at the beginning and frequently dropped the ball throughout, which ultimately killed the show's popularity. Mac 7, was indeed Victor's vehicle to sell Yoshiki Fukuyama and Chie Kajiura music and it worked very well. As I've already stated, SK's story could have been told in a regular 26 episode season if all the repetitive music was removed and condensed to the same levels that Mari Ijima's music was in SDFM. I suspect SK only wrote 26 outlines for the series, not 49. The "corporate" aspect is how much the sponsors interfered in the show, as in wanting more music featured to sell more albums of their contracted artists. After the obligatory number of music episodes were reached the producers could get back to SK's outlined story. This is often where the show would get interesting again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 We should adopt the motto of some Gundam forums: "It's all Macross. It's all good." Is that before or after we get in a circle and sing Kumbaya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 We should adopt the motto of some Gundam forums: "It's all Macross. It's all good." I can't believe anyone who's see "all" of the gundam shows could ever say that with a straight face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 This isn't a playoff game. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a contest. My logic is sound and if your theories are faulty, others can't be blamed for stating the obvious contradictions. The supposedly intolerable M7 bashing days are long gone from these forums, so maybe it's time to stop treating every difference of opinion like you're in a pissing contest. A little courtesy for the members you're in "discussion" with would serve you better than tooth-and-nail attempts to win "arguments" or trying to patronize your "opponents." This is one of the rare instances of me being nice, so enjoy it. I could get into your somewhat blatant habbit of calling your argument "logic," & mine "theories," but nothing you've said has interested me enough to get into it with you. Base point being that your argument stems specifically from your dislike of the show, and though you may consider your "opinions" on the matter as logic, they still stem from a highly biased stance. And to the contrary I posed a "question," asking how many of you guys actually watch a bulk amount of anime, since damn near every complaint given about 7 stems from things which are long standing anime tradition. You took this as an opportunity to get into another one of your not so cleverly veiled attempts at demeaning pro-7 arguments. But like I said, I'm not terribly interested in getting into this iwth you, as nothing you've said on the matter has been of any real importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 (edited) You know full well the statment about "logic" was referring specifically to YOUR arguement, NOT opinion of Macross 7. You stated Macross 7 is like every other show, only to contradict yourself in your very next post. Don't blame the Macross 7 critics for your own faulty arguements. But by all means, keep trying to confuse the issue and we might not notice you're currently caught in your own contradictions. It's also a blatant lie that you don't want to "get into this with me", since it was MY criticism of Macross 7 on page 18 that has apparently prompted your latest round of personal attacks at Macross 7 critics and their credibility. And it doesn't look like you're going to stop or show the least bit of courtesy to anyone for posting an opinion different than yours. But again, keep treating everyone here like AgentOne and we might not notice the grudge you still carry from years of bitter flame wars with him. You don't want to carry on a proper discussion about the criticims of Macross 7 because you're not "winning" the "contest." So you're going to get mad and hope the moderators step in to quell this heated debate. You've done this before whenever one of your faulty arguements has been countered and you're doing it again because it's the only way you choose to deal with criticism. Make a scene, leave the moderators no choice but to enforce an end to the arguement and what was once a calm, rational discussion about Macross 7 is ruined for everyone involved. Good job, Keith. Edited November 6, 2007 by Mr March Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Not to worry Marching to the Beat of a Different Drum, the mods are pretty good about such things for the most part, so long as both parties are not flaming, they tend to let the debate burn itself out. The only exception I've seen recently was the Macross Ethnicity thread which was locked because the mod didn't appear to like it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 You know full well the statment about "logic" was referring specifically to YOUR arguement, NOT opinion of Macross 7. You stated Macross 7 is like every other show, only to contradict yourself in your very next post. Don't blame the Macross 7 critics for your own faulty arguements. But by all means, keep trying to confuse the issue and we might not notice you're currently caught in your own contradictions. Uh huh, suuure.... It's also a blatant lie that you don't want to "get into this with me", since it was MY criticism of Macross 7 on page 18 that has apparently prompted your latest round of personal attacks at Macross 7 critics and their credibility. And it doesn't look like you're going to stop or show the least bit of courtesy to anyone for posting an opinion different than yours. But again, keep treating everyone here like AgentOne and we might not notice the grudge you still carry from years of bitter flame wars with him. Latest round? You keep trying to drag me into something I never got into in the first place. If I wanted to waste the time systematically dissecting your "opinion" I would have, but like I said, there was nothing there worth bothing with. As for AgentOne, there was never any grudge with him, ask him yourself, he at least knew hot to discuss things, and aside form that topic, we were cool. Hardly anything that would be considered "bitter flame wars." If it's your intention to become the next A1 however, you're quite wasting your time. You don't want to carry on a proper discussion about the criticims of Macross 7 because you're not "winning" the "contest." So you're going to get mad and hope the moderators step in to quell this heated debate. You've done this before whenever one of your faulty arguements has been countered and you're doing it again because it's the only way you choose to deal with criticism. Make a scene, leave the moderators no choice but to enforce an end to the arguement and what was once a calm, rational discussion about Macross 7 is ruined for everyone involved. Good job, Keith. Not winning, or not badgering? You're not carrying on a discussion period, which is why I don't care to get into this with you. I'd also hardly call myself the one "getting mad," when you're the one drifting into the personal arena chief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 (edited) Your reply following my criticism was all personal attack against credibility and hasn't stopped since. You've been given every opportunity to get on point and actually discuss the opinion, but failed every time. As I've stated, variation on a theme and no consideration was given to the opinion itself. You've already admitted ignoring eveything I say means nothing to you, so live by your own creed and stop replying like it does before you get caught in another lie... Too late Edited November 6, 2007 by Mr March Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Not to worry Marching to the Beat of a Different Drum, the mods are pretty good about such things for the most part, so long as both parties are not flaming, they tend to let the debate burn itself out. Fair enough. Sadly, there is no discussion going on about the actual opinion stated, so there's nothing to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Fair enough. Sadly, there is no discussion going on about the actual opinion stated, so there's nothing to talk about. Oh yeah? Well you're bald and your eyes glow blue... There, I said it... Why don't we make up wild and baseless accusations about Macross 7? Oh wait then that'd be like a debate with keith over Macross II.... Nope, that won't do either.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Oh yeah? Well you're bald and your eyes glow blue... There, I said it... Why don't we make up wild and baseless accusations about Macross 7? Oh wait then that'd be like a debate with keith over Macross II.... Nope, that won't do either.... LOL You big meanie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Mr March, "don't taze me bro!" Or are you Barney posing as a guard? Ooooooh! I hated the clown VF-1 in M7. Probably the worst scheme I've ever seen. bleagh. M7 is great because it gave us Miria with short hair, Max and Miria in VF-22s, the VF-17, VF-14, VF-22, and Emilia. All the cheese and corn is forgiven for Emilia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Electro shocks...hmmm, very tempting Well there was Milia The President on Episode 44. "And check out this body!" Hottest granny in the galaxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Your reply following my criticism was all personal attack against credibility and hasn't stopped since. You've been given every opportunity to get on point and actually discuss the opinion, but failed every time. As I've stated, variation on a theme and no consideration was given to the opinion itself. You've already admitted ignoring eveything I say means nothing to you, so live by your own creed and stop replying like it does before you get caught in another lie... Too late Fabricate much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 The VF-11B is great Variable Fighter. The VF-11C on the other hand armor is made out of paper. I think the real problem was the pilots. In one episode Gamlin has to pilot a VF-11C. He not only lived but managed to shoot down a few guys. Gamlin kicked ass in a VF-11C in episode # 7 to be exact. Don't blame the mecha, blame the generally crap pilots in the M7 fleet. I'd take a VF-11 into combat over a VF-1 any day. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Gamlin kicked ass in a VF-11C in episode # 7 to be exact. Don't blame the mecha, blame the generally crap pilots in the M7 fleet. I'd take a VF-11 into combat over a VF-1 any day. Graham Not that there was any fighting shown, but don't forget Milia's VF-11 team in the Top Gamlin M7 Plus short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Not that there was any fighting shown, but don't forget Milia's VF-11 team in the Top Gamlin M7 Plus short. To be fair, Millia could turn a dented tuna can into a deadly space fighter if you gave her a can of red paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Fabricate much? Your post is baiting and nothing more. It doesn't help your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 (edited) ...VF-22s, the VF-17, VF-14, VF-22, and Emilia. All the cheese and corn is forgiven for Emilia. VF-22? Yes, dispite the silly bubble canopy.... VF-17S Millia Red Battroid? Yes Vf-14? Meh... Emilia? Yes, but as hot as she was, not hot enough to forgive them for Basara... I'd take a VF-11 into combat over a VF-1 any day. Graham Noooo, don't make me choose!!!! Edited November 7, 2007 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF5SS Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hottest granny in the galaxy Oh she'd kill you for that. And since when is she a grannie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Oh she'd kill you for that. And since when is she a grannie? I could take her I was just joking about her age, I don't think Max and Milia have grand children...yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I'd take a VF-11 over a VF-1 any day. Sure you lose a forward facing laser in fighter, but you can shoot down stuff behind and above you. It's got almost all the same add-ons as the VF-1 too. Fast packs, protect armor, two-seat version, and a radar version. All it lacks are command versions (J/S) and strike packs. Plus it has the ballistic shield and reloadable gunpod. I will risk the pitchforks and torches to proclaim that I think the VF-11 design is more beautiful than the classic VF-1. I know, "heresy", but it must be said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I'd take a VF-11 over a VF-1 any day. Sure you lose a forward facing laser in fighter Wasn't that an animation error? It's got almost all the same add-ons as the VF-1 too. Fast packs, protect armor, two-seat version, and a radar version. All it lacks are command versions (J/S) and strike packs. Well we really don't know if there are command variants of the VF-11, neither Mac Plus or Mac 7's stories required them to be shown. In both cases all that was necessary were the VF-11B for Dyson and the VF-11C CF's for Mac 7. They'd be "F" and "S" versions if the version code conventions were to be followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Wasn't that an animation error? I think he was referring to the head laser of the VF-1 which was pointing forward in fighter mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 The VF-1 looks cooler therefore it is the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichterX Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I think he was referring to the head laser of the VF-1 which was pointing forward in fighter mode. and it can turn around and shoot things on the side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 and it can turn around and shoot things on the side True, the combat effectiveness of the head laser was featured in Macross Zero. Sadly it took SK 20 years to conclude this and it wasn't shown in SDFM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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