Currently watching Macross 7

[Valkyrie addict]

I guess there really is no way to analize such a character like basara, Macross 7 just gave us Basara as he is and period, no why he is like he is and where he's headed, what everyones interprets of him it's up tp each one of us and our projections towards the show

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, getting a fresh new topic here, I'm not sure if this was discused before...

but, in Macross 7 there was a lot of cannon fodder VF-11 loses, only the much agile and abile fighters like the VF-17, VF-19 and unquestionably the VF-22 were able to put up a fight

so, a hypotetical question, if the X-9 Ghost project would not have gotten shut down and the fleet would had an X-9 squadron solely against the Varuate, since it's an unmanned vehicle with similar if not supeior abilites to the VF-19/VF-22, would you think the Varuata would had been on a disadvantage since they would had to deal with a extremely relentless oponent with no spiritia to drain?

[jenius]

so, a hypotetical question, if the X-9 Ghost project would not have gotten shut down and the fleet would had an X-9 squadron solely against the Varuate, since it's an unmanned vehicle with similar if not supeior abilites to the VF-19/VF-22, would you think the Varuata would had been on a disadvantage since they would had to deal with a extremely relentless oponent with no spiritia to drain?

Good question. Basara would still hop out and sing at the enemy though which would still result in the enemy infiltrating the ship. I'm thinking if the X-9 were present we would have just seen far less space battles in the first 20 eps and more chaos within the ship.

[Zinjo]

so, a hypotetical question, if the X-9 Ghost project would not have gotten shut down and the fleet would had an X-9 squadron solely against the Varuate, since it's an unmanned vehicle with similar if not supeior abilites to the VF-19/VF-22, would you think the Varuata would had been on a disadvantage since they would had to deal with a extremely relentless oponent with no spiritia to drain?

I thought the X-9 fighters were scaled back as opposed to shut down. In VF-X2 some 10 years after the Sharon Apple incident we still see them around.

As for the PD, I suspect the X-9 would be no match for Sivil and probably would only serve to accelerate the awakening process as opposed to the Spiritia Farm that Gilpenich was trying to build.

[Vic Mancini]

You entreated me to strip the "starving" part of the artist from my mind, as though it was a mistaken statement originally made by you. This was not the case. I was making a point about Basara being the "epitome of a starving artist" and you were rebutting it. Why would I abandon a point I was making?

You still aren't getting it. In fact, you're actually more confused than I originally thought.

I don't know how to explain myself any more clearly than I already have.

Well I guess the issue is, that I keep bringing you back to those original statements trying to assertain when he went from an artist who owed no one anything to a prophet????

I've already answered this many times.

In that we disagree.

The Basara character was inspired by the legend of Minmay from SW1 and determined within himself to do what she did. He didn't know how he was going to do it, but he was hell bent to accomplish his goal, which is why he "demanded" to be heard rather than allowed his music to "infect" the enemy forces as was the case with Minmay.

This is exactly why he is not the epitome of being a [starving or not] artist. I feel like I've said this a hundred times, but if Basara was the epitome of an artist archetype, he wouldn't be concerned with Minmay-style culture warfare or spiritial enlightenment. He'd be writing songs for the sake of making good music. Basara's goal from the very beginning was to do more with his music than to simply make art.

I'd love to debate the issues, so long as what is attributed to me is accurately recounted, otherwise I am forced to waste time establishing my positions over and over on the same topics.

If you're implying that I've inaccurately recounted what I'm attributing to you, then I have to say that's the pot calling the kettle black. If that was just a general statement about others you've debated with in the past, then never mind.

I can understand that, however without you right in front of me I am unable to go on anything but your words and the word choices you have made.

The problem is you're choosing to discount what I'm saying now in favor of words you think I said five or six posts ago. There has to be a reason why you're disregarding my most recent elaborations. It can't be that you're simply skimming over my posts too quickly. There's intent there. You seem to prefer holding me to something you see a possibility of fault in rather than listening to an explanation. This is probably why you're so confused about what I'm saying. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me if I'm understood, but the problem is you don't seem to want to understand me before you rebut.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Valkyrie addict]

I thought the X-9 fighters were scaled back as opposed to shut down. In VF-X2 some 10 years after the Sharon Apple incident we still see them around.

As for the PD, I suspect the X-9 would be no match for Sivil and probably would only serve to accelerate the awakening process as opposed to the Spiritia Farm that Gilpenich was trying to build.

I really don't know what happened to the X-9, I never played VFX-2 so I wouldn't know---

but, let's say if in their first encounter when teh Varuata engaged the Macross 7 fleet, they would had found only X-9 suqadrons, wouldn't that be like a turn down to the Varuata, since they found a fleet with aparently no spiritia to steal and Anima Spiritia (which they hated), would they just disregard and try and find another civilization to attack!?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah about the messiah thing: original when I brought it up, I mean it as only symbolic thing not a literal thing. (he does kinda save the universe you know. Nukes had no effect, humans had no defence, so the weapons were spiritual defenses more than phyiscal ones)

It's sorta like how people thought the movie aliens had themes of abortion in it, or how Ripley in alien 3 in order to prevent future deaths had to sacrifice herself in a messiah-like fashion and with her arms spread out, (like jesus on the cross?) sacrifice herself so others could live. (effectively bringing the alien impregnated in her body with her in the belief it will stop people from getting their hands on it and using it or risk it escaping and breeding)

I only meant it in the form of a self sacrifice, to save others: giving your life for no other reason so others can live. (millions and billions of of people from generation to generation who won't be extinct thanks to your efforts) A free gift. It's symbolic, it's not literal as in ripley really was a messiah to be worshipped and bowed to. I think people understand that. Symbols!

I could have just as easily used optimus prime from the transformers!

Optimus never actually wanted to kill megatron just "defend freedom for all living things". Rather than be like ultra magnus who is a soldier he wants the best for everyone. In many episodes he could have had megatron by the balls and taken him apart and killed him once and for all and bringing an end to the cybertronian war so that people could live in peace and be happy that the decepticons no longer threaten them. But noooooo...like basara he lets the bad guy go because he is a pacifist so megatron is free to continue doing bad things and potential bring ruin to more lives. But prime doesn't like war, isn't just a soldier who likes to use force, and doesn't necessarily want to harm his enemy unless it is necessary. It's more a means to an end to save lives, not the end goal. Bringing death is the bad guys style. If the hero is a ruthless killer, what difference is there between good and bad? Aren't they just the same thing fighting for their individual beliefs and being selfish?

Had prime been more like say wolverine, and played a tough guy who doesn't fool around; where he enjoys hurting the bad guy because he gets a kick out of seeing the enemy suffer as much as helping people, then maybe the war could have ended quicker and less lives lost?

I only want to show that there is many solutions to get the same result. You could have peace and prevent death by taking a tough decision like gamlin and just killing the enemy to stop them, (like hikaru in SDF:macross who at first couldn't understand why max only hits the regult in the weak spot to prevent the pilot from dying and instead only disabling the weapon to not upset his new zentradi girlfriend) but ever since max and milia got married to show two races could love, the show took a more alternate path: that maybe it is not necessary to take the "tough guy" stance anymore if you could convert the other to your culture or heal the enemy from itself. (in the case of mac7: a bunch of demonic type beings with supernatural powers who in a sense are sick like they are feeding off themselves and forced to farm humans in order to live. Just like zombies who need to eat brains from living people because they hunger for fresh food or vamps who need fresh blood on a constant basis)

The evil is really the thing resulting in "Death". Most things want to avoid Death and preserve Life. In the case of macross 7 the beings had no alternative but to take life force from people since they used it to feed the same way a vampire would use blood of a victim to live. It's a "perversion" or "sickness"; a "disease" if you will permit me to use the term, of what is natural since you have to hurt someone else in order to live. (in a way similar to humans who are forced to kill animal for meat. Maybe being forced to feed our stomachs is a form of punishment or curse because it means others things must die so we live?)

But to the PD we are the 'cattle' and don't want to suffer. The only solution is help the bad guy help themself and you eliminate this need to take another life to prevent death, and instead just give them life for free as a gift so they no longer need to steal from others and solving the problem.

If anima spiritua is the awakening from this "sickness" and you think of Basara as a type of spiritual "healer", then yeah I like to think he is a messiah type figure. It's only my own interpretation but that's how I like to see it. Because the enemies have these demonic powers and I think even exedol mentions that they are "like devils" or "like the Devil" to us humans. (but more that way for the zentradi and the PC's history who are obviously an older race than us humans and have a richer past stretching a long way back)

Anyway the bottom line is that I wanted to say that basara is more like a saviour but using the messiah as my symbol it helps people understand where I was going. Maybe he had not intended to be a messiah, (which is how I like to describe it since he gives life to people as a healer, with even episodes showing he can heal the plants, very similar to the girl in macross Zero) but the end result of his action is the saving of generations of people, making him more than just famous star like minmay, but a legendary hero who achieves things without bringing death. (loving the enemy the same way Max loved his alien GF)

The military is still needed for defences and buying time, but the main character is what saved humanity, not just the UN Spacy weapons themselves. (which proved useless against the monsters. Like trying to fight a ghost with a gun. Conventional weapons similarly are useless against vampires in lots of fiction, since they are supernatural beings. You need spiritual weapons to combat them. You can't kill a zombie either: they are already dead! Healing them may work though since if you had the power to ressurect something you bring it to life. No need to be violent. )

Now a point I want to bring up is that basara differs from the original anima spiritua guys in that basara doesn't just seal the monster like vampires in a coffin to be locked away forever. He actually solves their problem for them and heals them from their eternal hunger. Returning them to normal. That's a huge difference from just killing or harming them with music, or locking them away which only ignores the problem altogether, only leaving it for later generations to have to solve in the future. To the macross universe his efforts must be legendary. I mean for crying out loud he just fought these beings that have been responsible for probably millions of deaths and had been roaming around for a long time destroying the most advanced civilisation known. It's not a question of "did he save humans?", "did he save earth?", nope he ended up saving the enemy from itself along with many other civilisations. So the evil was really Death and sickness. And the cure was life. (which only resulted in the music which caused them to awaken their own inner power. Like how an avalanche might be triggered from a few small sudden shakes or something, or a small spark might ignite a flame or cause a fire in the right conditions)

So just think of it as the "healer" is the saviour, the death is the disease. Find the cure and determine the root cause of the problem, and you may be able to stop the disease from spreading further or making it a nonissue altogether, which is a better alternative than killing the patient (destroying a life with violent solution which won't work long term) to get to the disease. In a way optimus prime is like a pacifist for not wanting to kill people, and he just wants to find a way to stop deaths being idealistic for not just killing megatron when he could have and sticking to his noble beliefs. Ultra magnus on the other hand, is just a simple soldier like gamlin, and really only knows how to fight. But its the idealistic guy who wants to free people and protect innocent lives no matter how futile that is the making of the hero, not just a guy who can kill things. (killing makes you hard to distinguish from bad guys. The ideal of a saviour would be to try to preserve ALL life, including the enemy as well.) If max killed milia, would you have had long term peace? It was an important event to show that humans could actually save themselves by accepting the zentradi, (and then save the zentradi from thier mind control) rather than trying to kill them all off. The alternative solution of helping the enemy benefits both sides in the end.

As we all know from watching macross 7: Mylene was consequently born from the love of the two races, and her mixed blood allowed the ruins to reveal the history of the PC to a race that learned how to finally bring peace back through non-violent method. If you link this to Macross Zero: the bird thing asked Sara if humans were stilled making wars amoungst themselves? So the idea is at some point that on the condition we could become peaceful, and mature enough to not wipe ourselves out through wars which result in extinction, we could be granted a larger role in things in faith that we wouldn't abuse any priviliges. The evil is just as much within us, through our need to fight war and cause death as it is in an external neighbor like the PD. Solve the reoccuring sickness that leads to death, and you will be granted a method of preserving life for long term instead of needing to make weapons which only get turned against you by the opposing sides. (short term solution only)

Personally I like to think the AFOS in macross zero was expecting the events to happen where humans would just be like the PC, and build weapons and restart wars, but through the disarming of the vf shin understood at the last minute to not take violent action and chose to risk his life and risk being killed by the AFOS to allow sara to live. So it is symbolic of power hungry un spacy (shin and his weapon the valkyrie) vs the natives (peaceful but holding the keys to life or death for a whole race of people). Unless the former showed maturity they would never be allowed to take on a higher level of responsibility lest they bring thier disease (the death caused by thier reasurance of might = right) to other civilisations and restart the cycle again which is what led to the extinction of the first advanced alien race in the first place. (fighting from the wars, I imagine, eventually spreading out everywhere and bringing destruction to everything. A bit like the war in Lord of the rings which eventually endangered once-peaceful races who would rather not be involved in it)

Edited May 8, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[VFTF1]

Ah - here's the M7 thread...

I am donwloading the series - have watched two episodes so far -27 and 28 - on youtube just to get a flavor...

WHAT I LIKE:

1) Format - The format is great - the idea of the M7, the emigrants, Max as ship captain, the bridge, Macron Exoldor - all of these are conceptualy really great ideas.

2) Visuals of the City within the Ship - in SDF M we often had lots of white buildings with little detail - we were given the impression of a metropolis on a star ship - but in M7 the animation is better - the bricck building Fire Bomber live in is a good example.

3) Protodevilin, Anime Spiritia & Sound Force: Conceptually excellent ideas.

WHAT I HATE:

1) BaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSsssrrraaaaaaaAAAAAAA!

Seriously.

Step back for a moment and try telliung me that this skinny-manilly dweeb is anywhere near Minmei. His songs are all self-absorbed. Minmey had normal-person problems - her story was of a young girl with some musical talent who suddenly made it big and got caught up in the world of stardom to the detriment of her personal life - she was also a lovely clash of paradoxes - shallow on the one hand, womanly on the other (like when she decided to take care of Hikaru and give up music) - it was fun to watch her and the tension was realistic.

Bassra is a self-conscious GEEEENIUUSSS SINGER! YEEAAAAAHHH! No - he's WORSE.

Bassra KNOWS that his songs are the key to stopping the proto-devilin and in effect is so utterly disgustingly self-absorbed that he's more hideous than the Zendradii. There isn't a semblance of hunmanity in him - it's Bassra's ego trip - all the time - it's just his MUUUSSSIC on and on - as the Zendradi were with war - Bassra is with culture.

Bassra is a mockery of culture because he has no distance - no pathos of distance - he's a single minded...Culture Soldier.

That's not what Captain Gloval was talking about when he gave his stirring speech to Misa about preserving culture and spreading it to the stars.

Bassra's songs are tooo self-absorbed to be epiphanetic (sp?) for humanity - and I don't see how anyone who DOESN'T looik like a Proto-devilin would be entranced by listening to them.

Yuck.

I hate the way he dresses too - he has the aesthetic sense of a pimp crossed with poindexter - and just think how much smelly BO he emits from those open armpits when he get into his FireBasterdizzed VF-19....

Heck - if the guys who built the YF-19 knew what it would end up as....I think they would have voluntarily withdrawn from the project to protect it from falling in the hands of Basra.

And this is really what makes the whole thing so hard for me to like:

I like everything EXCEPT for the main character and his music, which are the main theme...

We'll see what else I think once I watch the series.

VFTF1

[RDClip]

WHAT I HATE:

1) BaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSsssrrraaaaaaaAAAAAAA!

Seriously.

Well then you, me, and sbout 99% of the macross fan community are in agreement.

But, i can ignore the stupidity of Basara and focus on one of the best and most popular characters from that series, Gamlin.

[VFTF1]

Agreed on Gamlin.

He's the underdog. In a series where PILOTING SKILLS and COURAGE were always the highest virtues, Gamlin has the terrible bad luck to find himself at the point in the series (M7) where being an egomaniacal jerk who sings bad music trumps years of discipline and training.

This makes Gamlin all the more admirable.

VFTF1

[Mr March]

I'm torrenting the entire series - although my first impression remains highly highly negative.

If I watch the entire series from start to finish will I change my mind?

Watch it for yourself and decide.

In my own personal opinion, the series never improves. I'm only about a dozen episodes from the end and it's still as awful as the first episode. I knew it would be, but I have other reasons for carefully going through the series (obviously). I know that's not inspiring, but that's my view for what it's worth.

On the plus side, there are some really cool mecha sprinkled throughout the series that act like military mehca. There are a few battles that are fun to watch. I also like the big UN Spacy warships of Macross 7, though the Varauta ships are fugly. Sadly, most of the ship battles are pants.

Well, best of luck.

[Zinjo]

On the plus side, there are some really cool mecha sprinkled throughout the series that act like military mehca. There are a few battles that are fun to watch. I also like the big UN Spacy warships of Macross 7, though the Varauta ships are fugly. Sadly, most of the ship battles are pants.

Yeah Miyataki did an amazing job on the Spacy capital ships (the main reason I own the "Mac 7 Animation Materials" book! Some of the PD cap ships are OK, like the mothership, but they were mostly designed to be "cool" as opposed to functional.

The same went with the VF-14 derivative fighters. The VF-14 is an angry looking ship to begin with, then all this crap was added, without any real thought to functionality... You can tell Kawamori's best efforts were being put into Macross Plus at the time...

[s001]

Agreed on Gamlin.

He's the underdog. In a series where PILOTING SKILLS and COURAGE were always the highest virtues, Gamlin has the terrible bad luck to find himself at the point in the series (M7) where being an egomaniacal jerk who sings bad music trumps years of discipline and training.

This makes Gamlin all the more admirable.

VFTF1

I don't like Gamlin either. I mean, he just drestroyed Miria's VF-1 in a very stupid way. If he were a good pilot he would be able to pilot every kind of ship just like Max does!

[Star Dragon]

It would have been nice if they had added more songs instead of rotating the 2-3 main ones all the time, it really got old. I now have almost every Fire Bomber Song made and some are really good.

I particularly got a kick out of Mylene doing some of the Minmay songs.

Project M (military source) found out about Basara and as he gained superstar status on the Galaxy Network Charts they approached Ray and provided the Valkyries. It was always hoped by them that if a similar situation arose in the future they could use him the same way. Not quite what they bargained for eh?

They never come out and say it but I would think Ray was capable of Spiritia generation with his keyboard because CHIBA quote says "Even Veffidas's drumming can produce it?!" because he can measure it on his scanner and was shocked.

So Basara while the star and longest playing generator of Anima Spiritia, is NOT the sole hope most people believe. He's got three backups, but he IS the best chance of the four.

I understand the Messiah angle, but I don't think it's rammed down your throat.

I believe Basara says in one episode basically WHY he sings. It's also one of the times he chews Mylene out or when he's complaining about the military I don't remember which.

1.) He IS singing for himself.

2.) He sings because he wants people to understand how he feels and hopes they will feel the same way.

3.) He never reveals anything else, but hints come from outside sources about his compulsion and the whole destiny thing "move the mountain".

Basara overloads the Protodevlin and also uses his feelings to cause them harm (that's why they reach a limit and have to flee, like a vampire to a cross or sunlight). At the very end he manages to break through to Gepelnitch and instead of destruction, causes the Lord to have spontaneous spiritia regeneration. Thus curing his need to drain others for sustenance.

When Sivil drained Basara so severely she gained the ability unknowingly until she started to sing a few lines and felt the power while imprisoned. If you kept watching alter you could see she still retained the ABILITY to drain and cause spiritia death attacks, but chose NOT to use them except against Gepelnitch.

You never ever see Basara use spiritia as an intentional "WEAPON". That's the realm of the MARDUK (M2) "The Song of War" & "Death".

Tangent:

I have been writing a fanfic in which I crossover many genres and also retconned M2 and M7 as the same universe.

Basara has to deal with Minmay from Robotech, The Marduk emulators, and me... In the next chapter he tries to teach me how to use Anima spiritia. Also he's kind of distracted by news reports that he is possibly "obsolete" now that footage of a musical attack destroyed a ship and cause the enemy to flee, a MILITARY unit (me). Dr Hell, SG-1, and Star Wars have yet to be touched upon...

It's up to Chapter 30 now so if anyone enjoys that sort of thing I'd appreciate it if you check it out and possibly make some comments on what I've done so far in that thread.

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=42590

Don't be confused, it STARTS with the REF about to come back to Earth and quickly all reality goes to hell.

I got the Argo/Yamato from Starblazers about to meet the TREK Federation. Basara will soon find out that hoping and singing for peace won't always stop people from getting killed. (A real kick in the reality ass he needs IMHO)

Edited October 4, 2007 by Star Dragon

[Ginrai]

I don't like Gamlin either. I mean, he just drestroyed Miria's VF-1 in a very stupid way. If he were a good pilot he would be able to pilot every kind of ship just like Max does!

Maybe you've forgotten how many Valkyries Hikaru destroyed or nearly destroyed.

[VF5SS]

GAMLIN KICK!

[Sumdumgai]

Max isn't the best pilot to compare a main character pilot to. Of course Gamlin isn't as good as Max, Max is a genius at flying, knocking up Miria, and staying looking young. Hikaru got shot down pretty often. Gamlin could kick the crap out of Hikaru in a valkyrie if we look at how many times both have been shot down.

Gamlin is a pretty able pilot, and one of Miria's former students at that. Being trained by Miria has to count for something.

I point out that Gamlin is the military representative main character, not THE MAIN character.

[JB0]

It would have been nice if they had added more songs instead of rotating the 2-3 main ones all the time, it really got old. I now have almost every Fire Bomber Song made and some are really good.

I DON'T have most of the Fire Bomber songs, but agree that more songs would have helped a LOT.

By the time they added the second in, I was sick to death of Planet Dance.

HEY EVERYBO-*mute*

They never come out and say it but I would think Ray was capable of Spiritia generation with his keyboard because CHIBA quote says "Even Veffidas's drumming can produce it?!" because he can measure it on his scanner and was shocked.

So Basara while the star and longest playing generator of Anima Spiritia, is NOT the sole hope most people believe. He's got three backups, but he IS the best chance of the four.

I think the entire fleet counts as backups.

The impression I got was that EVERYONE can do it, if they're passionate enough. Even poor tone-deaf Gamlin(who should be legally banned from singing in the presence of others).

Basara is just by far the best at it, with Mylene a distant second.

He's in a perpetual state of worked-up and doesn't NEED the impending death of himself, his family, his friends, his species, his galaxy, and his universe to push him on.

He just really really really REALLY wants people to LISTEN TO HIS SONG! and it'll touch their hearts if he puts everything he has into it. Even the heathens that don't like rock will be moved, if he can only convince them to LISTEN!.

In short, he's a super-robot pilot with a guitar.

[Keith]

Don't hate on Super Robot pilots, without burning passionate SR pilots, it'd be a boring world!

[Zinjo]

Basara is the "superman" character of the series, boring and annoying with almost no measurable personal growth unlike the real man o' steel.

Mylene and the rest of the cast were worth watching IMO.

I wouldn't put Mylene a "distant" second, though a second for sure. There were a few occasions where "super robot man" needed her help to deal with the PD because he wasn't powerful enough on his own, however combined they were powerful enough as "super friends"

[charger69]

I want to ask a question which is related to the Macross Zero and also Macross 7.

We know that Protoculture created "Evil" o beat the Zentraedi, and some bad spirits from another part of the galaxy, captured these Evils then they became Protodeviln.

So, at this point can we consider that AFOS was an Evil which was not captured by bad spirits/Protodeviln, but sent by Protoculture to the Earth to destroy the Earth if some sort of Zentraedi like creatures appears. I mean by "Zentraedi like", a culture which have weapons, war machines etc.

In fact AFOS and Protodeviln have the same abilities/characteristics:

- Can destroy a whole planet

- A projectile like power emission

- Controlled by an another sentient beeing (Sara Nome/Gavil)

Tell me wat do you think? (If this idea is already studied I apologize)

In my opinion this scenario really makes sense.

If this relation is real, we will probably see big monsters like AFOS in Macross Frontier too, in forms of pure Evil, not like Protodeviln.

Edited October 5, 2007 by charger69

[JB0]

Don't hate on Super Robot pilots, without burning passionate SR pilots, it'd be a boring world!

I wasn't hating. I fully respect super robot pilots and their endless amounts of courage and guts, as well as their abiltiy to turn impossible odds into absolute certainties with said courage and guts.

It just seemed to be the most accurate description of Basara's personality.

Basara is the "superman" character of the series, boring and annoying with almost no measurable personal growth unlike the real man o' steel.

Mylene and the rest of the cast were worth watching IMO.

Yeah. I think Mylene really should have been the focus of the show. Basically switch the Basara/Mylene ratio and it'd be much more entertaining.

I wouldn't put Mylene a "distant" second, though a second for sure. There were a few occasions where "super robot man" needed her help to deal with the PD because he wasn't powerful enough on his own, however combined they were powerful enough as "super friends"

It DID fluctuate from event to event. And if I recall, Mylene grew consistently more "powerful" as the series went on, while Basara stayed more or less static.

She was also good at stepping it up when more was needed.

I was thinking along the lines of the biggest gaps, early on. Which admittedly aren't representative of the whole.

I still find it hilarious that there's an episode entitled "Basara Dies!"

And we gripe when spoilers pop up OUTSIDE the show(though I guess it wasn't really a spoiler since he, you know, didn't).

[sketchley]

We know that Protoculture created "Evil" o beat the Zentraedi, and some bad spirits from another part of the galaxy, captured these Evils then they became Protodeviln.

From the Macross Compendium:

PC 2865

Development on powerful biological weapons based on the Zentradi, "Evil Series," begins. [Note: "Evil" pronounced as "Eh-vil."] Evil is the abbreviation of the Protoculture term for "advanced (Zentradi) all-enivron biological weapon."

Yes, there were most likely wars or fights or fueds being fought by proxy with the Zentraedi between rival groups in the Stellar Republic, but there is nothing that specifically states that the Evil Series was created to beat the Zentraedi per se.

So, at this point can we consider that AFOS was an Evil which was not captured by bad spirits/Protodeviln, but sent by Protoculture to the Earth to destroy the Earth if some sort of Zentraedi like creatures appears. I mean by "Zentraedi like", a culture which have weapons, war machines etc.

I think it's better to consider the Birdman to be a semi-AI controlled biological machine along similar lines to traditional Zentraedi weapons; especially the more biomechanical versions seen in DYRL. I don't think it's stated anywhere that the Birdman can destroy a whole planet - maybe vaporize everything on the surface over the span of a week or so.

- Controlled by an another sentient beeing (Sara Nome/Gavil)

I can't remember exactly, but the impression I have is that Gavil was more like a combined entity, and not so much one taking control of the other. I copuld be wrong of course.

If this relation is real, we will probably see big monsters like AFOS in Macross Frontier too, in forms of pure Evil, not like Protodeviln.

I agree that there will most probably be big space monsters in Macross Frontier, too. On the one hand, it's the direction that the series has been taking ever since the DYRL revisions to the SDF:M designs. On the other hand, it's a lot easier and more visceral for the uninitiated audience to understand the threat. A space monster is definitely a lot more threatening than a battlepod. (What? I thought it was a good-guy mecha!)

[Zinjo]

From the Macross Compendium:

Yes, there were most likely wars or fights or fueds being fought by proxy with the Zentraedi between rival groups in the Stellar Republic, but there is nothing that specifically states that the Evil Series was created to beat the Zentraedi per se.

I believe this was the time when the factions were using the Meltran and the Zentran to fight their battles, although that isn't officially recorded in the compendium. Actually the "internal conflicts" is what resurrected the EVIL series developement that had been suspended in PC2068, "The internal conflicts within the Stellar Republic revives the development of the "Evil Series."

I think it's better to consider the Birdman to be a semi-AI controlled biological machine along similar lines to traditional Zentraedi weapons; especially the more biomechanical versions seen in DYRL. I don't think it's stated anywhere that the Birdman can destroy a whole planet - maybe vaporize everything on the surface over the span of a week or so.

The AFOS units were in regular use by the year PC2870 and were most likely derivative units built/grown from the research that went into the EVIL series which had started 5 years prior. The principle differences being that the AFOS required a pilot for full functionality, whereas the EVIL series were designed to be fully autonomous units.

I can't remember exactly, but the impression I have is that Gavil was more like a combined entity, and not so much one taking control of the other. I copuld be wrong of course.

I believe Gavil was the "scout" for Galvil. The big monster was capable of independant actions, but would essentially lay waste anything in front of it as opposed to directed attacks. I suspect that Gavil served that purpose, like a laser designator used by ground troops for laser guided bombs.

I agree that there will most probably be big space monsters in Macross Frontier, too. On the one hand, it's the direction that the series has been taking ever since the DYRL revisions to the SDF:M designs. On the other hand, it's a lot easier and more visceral for the uninitiated audience to understand the threat. A space monster is definitely a lot more threatening than a battlepod. (What? I thought it was a good-guy mecha!)

Hard to say.

If they dumb it down again, then yes there will be "Space Monsters" per se. If they encounter the SA, there is a very real possibility there will be AFOS (we've only seen one type of unit thus far) units as well as PC based mecha likely more advanced than what was encountered with the Zentreadi.

[s001]

Maybe you've forgotten how many Valkyries Hikaru destroyed or nearly destroyed.

Yeah, fighting Breetai and quamzin krashvera for example!

[s001]

GAMLIN KICK!

Yeah his own a%s! Chasing Mylene around as a fool. Sorry I really don't like M7.

[Sumdumgai]

AFOS = not as powerful as EVIL series. AFOS got messed up by reaction warheads. EVIL series stuff doesn't get effected by reaction weaponry, and can shrug off Macross Cannon blasts.

[VFTF1]

I'm not really into the space monsters thing and I liked the fact that the Zendradi had their own mecha and that later there were rogue Zendradi and allied Zendradzi...

After all - the SV-51 was "rogue" human mecha - eh?

Space monsters are cliche.

VFTF1

[Zinjo]

AFOS = not as powerful as EVIL series. AFOS got messed up by reaction warheads. EVIL series stuff doesn't get effected by reaction weaponry, and can shrug off Macross Cannon blasts.

Well "super robot man" needs to fight super monsters doesn't he?...

However, the AFOS was not cutting edge technology like the EVIL series were.

It is entirely possible that the EVIL series was an attempt to combine the destructive power of an AFOS into an autonomous unit like the Zentreadi, but wasn't fully realized until they grew the Super Dimension "organs" to power them.

[Valkyrie addict]

It is entirely possible that the EVIL series was an attempt to combine the destructive power of an AFOS into an autonomous unit like the Zentreadi, but wasn't fully realized until they grew the Super Dimension "organs" to power them.

WTF???? try saying that in public with a straight face, hahahahahaha look whar Kawamori has reduced us to discuss? haha

Edited October 5, 2007 by Valkyrie addict

[sketchley]

I believe this was the time when the factions were using the Meltran and the Zentran to fight their battles, although that isn't officially recorded in the compendium. Actually the "internal conflicts" is what resurrected the EVIL series developement that had been suspended in PC2068, "The internal conflicts within the Stellar Republic revives the development of the "Evil Series."

As I said: there were most likely wars or fights or fueds being fought by proxy with the Zentraedi between rival groups in the Stellar Republic, but there is nothing that specifically states that the Evil Series was created to beat the Zentraedi per se.

The AFOS units were in regular use by the year PC2870

Where is this stated? I'm not saying your wrong, but that this is the first time I've heard this; thus where?

Edited October 6, 2007 by sketchley

[azrael]

Where is this stated? I'm not saying your wrong, but that this is the first time I've heard this; thus where?

And one other note...

The AFOS units were in regular use by the year PC2870

"units". How do you know there's more than one? Where is this stated?

[Zinjo]

Where is this stated? I'm not saying your wrong, but that this is the first time I've heard this; thus where?

It's an extrapolation based on available evidence. We are told in Mac Zero that the AFOS was left behind by the PC, who we are told in the Compendium visited Earth in PC2870.

It is a reasonable conclusion (not specifically stated) that these units may have been common equipment to PC fleets. We are told in the Zero that the unit belonged the the PC who stayed behind according to legend (IIRC), thus a certain amount of implication that it was not necessarily a unique piece of equipment to the PC.

The EVIL series (which came on line in PC2871) possessed similar weaponry to the AFOS unit, however from Mac Zero we understand that for the AFOS to be fully functional a pilot is required (Sara). Therefore, if the AFOS units were indeed common mecha to the PC, then making autonomous units with similar combat capabilities, like the EVIL series is a reasonable extension of that train of thought.

I may have presented the extrapolation as documented in the history of the universe submitted by the producers, which is not the case. It is an extrapolation based on what we know from the compendium and the produced shows.

[Ginrai]

Yeah, fighting Breetai and quamzin krashvera for example!

Yeah, or fighting Misa!

[sketchley]

[lecture mode]

Uhm, excuse me Zinjo, but uhm if it's like not specifically stated, than it is nothing.

Yes, that doesn't rule out the possibility that extrapolations could be true, but where your extrapolation leads to an entire fleet of piloted AFOS, I see a one-of-a-kind biomechanical autonomus AI that relies on a spiritia power source. Yes, I know I'm not 100% correct in part or whole, but that's not the point. The point is that we must stick to what is specifically stated, and leave ourselves open to further revisions at a later date that clarify if there are, or are not things in the Macross Universe. (In this specific case a fleet of Birdmen... or not.)

Zinjo, I humbly recommend investing some of the plethora of energy, that you appear to have due to your tangents and extrapolations, into learning Japanese. No, I don't mean becoming fluent, but I mean getting to the point where you can understand the topic when none is specifically said (par for the course with Japanese.) I think it will improve both the arguements you present herein, as well as refine your tangents and extrapolations along lines more consistent with what has been specifically stated in Macross. It should also tone down the rudeness that you display towards non-Japanese who learn the language and by their grace, make the effort to translate it into English for the rest of us. Capiche?

[/lecture mode]

I feel like I'm at work dealing with a fractious student >.<

Edited October 6, 2007 by sketchley

[s001]

Yeah, or fighting Misa!