just my statement

[Oihan]

Yesterday morning, I found that my thread was gone. It had not been deleted like miriya's apparently had been, but had been moved to the YouTube thread. I didn't get an explanation as to why it was moved by a mod or anyone else. But honestly, they didn't have to. It was rather self-explanatory as to why a YouTube clip had been moved to the appropriate thread. Also, these DYRL clips are extremely old news to long-time members and are actually something of a bore to them at this stage of the game. And I was told so in the YouTube thread. Did I get offended? Not one bit. Why? Because I understand that there are going to be tons of things on here---especially where the older series and movies are concerned---that I will discover for the first time...things that other members have known about literally for years. Does this breed a certain level of "elitism" as you've put it, Oihan? Well...sure it does. Anyone who considers themselves an "expert" on any given subject will naturally find themselves asking, "Where have you been? Living under a rock somewhere? EVERYONE already knows about INSERT SUBJECT HERE. Is this wrong? No, not really. Could some people brush up on their people skills when they convey their disdain for the 15th "new" post on DYRL? Of course. But honestly, in the grand scheme of Macross World, its neither a democracy nor is it dictatorship. It's more akin to a prison yard (bad analogy, I know...but bear with me here, I'm going somewhere with this). The "general population" is allowed to mix and intermingle in the forums as long as the rules of the site are followed. But as soon as someone starts posting something that is inappropriate or just completely out of left field...the prison guards (the mods) do their jobs and perform a "lock down". Do prison guards have to notify prisoners why they're doing what they're doing? Absolutely not. You do as you're told...and that's that. Otherwise, life goes on here on Macross World fairly regimented and without too much "drama" with the exception of a few occasional outbursts.

I used to be a moderator elsewhere, I'm well aware of how moderation works, thank you though. I never mentioned I wanted nor demanded an explanation as to why these threads were deleted. All I said and am saying was that there were some threads that I thought shouldn't have been deleted.

As for your elitism example. That is wrong if someone wishes to add to the discussion. I've seen people bring up old threads, to add to the discussion, only to see others "sighing" and saying things along the lines of "hasn't this been beaten to death?" Elitism like that is bad. Who cares if it has been beaten to death? If the person wants to add more to the discussion, LET THEM. If the topic was covered on the old forums and it's no longer available...and someone wants to bring that topic back up...why should they be scrutinized for making a new thread?

By no means am I saying MW is a prison!! Just want to go on the record by pointing that out. I'm merely saying that forum sites, especially ones with specific themes (hence MACROSS World), have to keep the forums policed to insure that there's a certain level of continuity...and the prison analogy was the best one I could think of. Just like eugimon said, cats and dogs have no place in a fish forum, even though they all belong to the general animal kingdom. If you really look at a broad cross-section of threads in the forums, the mods really do allow quite a bit of lee-way when it comes to going off-topic once in a while. And that may be because the members here do a pretty good job policing themselves. The most I've seen a topic go awry is MAYBE a page or two before getting refocused...usually by a member. The mods only crack down on issues that truly deserve their time and attention. And if some of them seem surly or sarcastic...you can't really blame them. Moderation is not another word for "babysitting." And even if they do lower the boom on someone, its always with good reason. But honestly, the most I've ever seen one of them do is what amounts to a slap on the wrist...and it was deserved. But I have heard of outright bannings and account deletions, but I certainly don't believe that they take such extreme measures just because they're abusing their power.

At its heart, Macross World is an international site...and therefore has members from all different cultures. A comment made by someone could roll off the back of one person or decimate another, depending on how they want to take it, language barriers, etc. I don't necessarily think you need to have skin a foot thick to participate as an active member here. But I do think we, as members, are expected to be civil to one another...and not take ourselves or others so seriously. EXO (who is a mod, mind you) has often reminded people that its "just the internet" and he's absolutely correct. Perhaps other anime forums are run with quite a bit less decorum than MW, and therefore may have a more casual flow in topic discussions. But I have to agree that forums like that are a nearly unsearchable mess if you are looking for specific information. I've been on sites where I've searched for info on UC-era Gundam series...only to find rambling discussions that, ironically, gravitate toward whatever Gundam series is currently popular (Gundam 00, for example). That's great...but tells me absolutely nothing about 08th MS Team or War In The Pocket. In contrast, you don't find that here on MW. If you're searching for DYRL info, you can usually find volumes of it with little effort. Need lineart from the TV series? You'll find specific threads on that too. And all because MW is run like a well-tuned Valkyrie.

...I don't know where some of this came from and why it's being directed towards me. I have not once mentioned or implied that any of the moderators have been abusing their powers...so I dunno why you're bringing that up. I'm also not against moderation all together. I don't want to be seeing advertisments like I do in Alt.Fan.Macross. I also don't want to be seeing OT stuff in a thread about Macross Plus or Macross DYRL?. I think you are missing what I'm trying to get across here.

Where the hell else am I going to find Macross fanatics? I'm the only Macross fan here in Reno as far as I know. Of all the people I've met here in Reno, no one can relate to me when it comes to my love of Macross. This is the only place I know of that I can come to and relate to other people when it comes to Macross. However, there's more than just Macross and Science Fiction that I would like to discuss with the other people here who love Macross as much as I do. I would like to be able to connect in other ways other than through Science Fiction. There are some threads out there like the the computer, console, electronic threads that are not entirely Science Fiction related...which are fantastic! I'm truly grateful for them...but that is it as far as leeway is concerned and that's where my problem lies. Hence why I'm all for less restrictions. ...And again there's only so much that can be said about Macross before other members start giving snide remarks...all because the topic was discussed before and is being rehashed or brought up again.

[EXO]

While I do agree with the sentiment that threads should live and die as they are needed, most member, no... let me rephrase, most vocal members of MW take it upon themselves to ruin a thread that would otherwise be unsuccessful or doesn't fit in with what MW would allow. As I stated in a thread I recently closed, A robotech thread is automatically attacked by members that feel they need to voice they're distaste for Robotech. But if those post weren't made then there would have only been about 5 to 6 posts on that thread that was on topic. Hence an useless old argument is beaten to death again... not because of the original poster, but because of the same attention chasers that used to run rampant on this site. But I can honestly say that those days are over. Some threads are closed because they do not fit in with MW standards, some stay open because they linger on the outskirts of what is acceptable. Some are closed, NOT because they are against the standards but they seem to attract a flame war or some conversations that would certainly be immature. Now that can be labeled as censorship, but I would disagree and I've seldom seen it happen anyway... I'm talking about an extremely rare occasion. Usually the mods wait for a thread to go down in flames before it gets closed... I don't know if that's to prove something or just to give the thread a chance.

As for modding... let me try to share my insight a little bit. When I first started moderating this site (and this site is the only one I'm familiar with... I frequent another site but it's just an extension of this one)... when I first started moderating this site, I told myself that I would always try to explain my actions, leave links to any thread that I moved, give warnings on threads that I'm about to close and make sure that all my actions were understood. Man, was that a huge epic failure... because now I left myself open to criticism. I get PMs both thanking me and PMs that disagree, but man... you should see the hate mails. I also get the blame for threads I didnt close, members that were banned, and of course the good old abuse of power accusation. Now I'm gonna be like the other guys, those guys got it right all along... silent moderation... this will probably be the last time I even try to explain my actions. Oh man... maybe that's where the whole Blame >EXO< thing came from... Still don't know where that started, but it's hella amusing.

Speaking of other sites... as stated before there are other sites that discuss Macross and off topic stuff. But MW attracts Macross fans because of the fact that it keeps things clean and mostly about the series. You mention Alt.Fan.Macross, but where is that at now? In fact how succesful are the other sites that is mostly Macross and discuss other topics openly? MW is not the most successful forum on the internet, but it ceratinly is a hub of all things Macross (in the English speaking world that is). Now you can see this as elitism but the fact is, it never pretends to be anything otherwise. People on other sites make fun of the fact that were dedicated to one show but it's how they found us and why most people stay. Let's talk about those other Robotech/Macross sites. Valkyrie Exchange had a forum, Twin Moons, Macross Nexxus, etc... Even the other site I frequent, Animepunch... we discuss everything there, but people refuse to go there even though it offers the freedom that members want because it's not Macrossworld.

I'll say it again, it's really the small number of people that are vocal that makes it seem like there's a need for us to expand, but the majority of people that aren't voicing out are the ones that matter, because they are satisfied at the way the forums are.

[David Hingtgen]

Oh man... maybe that's where the whole Blame >EXO< thing came from... Still don't know where that started, but it's hella amusing.

Actually I know *exactly* how that started. But that's not for this thread/topic.

[Oihan]

Speaking of other sites... as stated before there are other sites that discuss Macross and off topic stuff. But MW attracts Macross fans because of the fact that it keeps things clean and mostly about the series. You mention Alt.Fan.Macross, but where is that at now? In fact how succesful are the other sites that is mostly Macross and discuss other topics openly? MW is not the most successful forum on the internet, but it ceratinly is a hub of all things Macross. Now you can see this as elitism but the fact is, it never pretends to be anything otherwise. People on other sites make fun of the fact that were dedicated to one show but it's how they found us and why most people stay. Let's talk about those other Robotech/Macross sites. Valkyrie Exchange had a forum, Twin Moons, Macross Nexxus, etc... Even the other site I frequent, Animepunch... we discuss everything there, but people refuse to go there even though it offers the freedom that members want because it's not Macrossworld.

I don't think the reason why Alt.Fan.Macross died is because of the lack of moderation. MW popped up and everyone came here; I followed. AFM didn't used to always have advertisements...in fact I thought the newsgroup was pretty obscure. I honestly don't know of any other Macross site/forum other than MW...so I couldn't tell you how things have gone down with those sites/forums. Again, I'm not saying that I'm against moderation. I just wish there was another forum to use for things not related to Science Fiction or Macross. I'm not going to stop coming to MW because there isn't another forum on this message board...but it would be nice to have...that's all I'm trying to say and get across.

I'll say it again, it's really the small number of people that are vocal that makes it seem like there's a need for us to expand, but the majority of people that aren't voicing out are the ones that matter, because they are satisfied at the way the forums are.

So you're saying I don't matter? ='( I guess I'll go crawling back to AFM...never to return.

[EXO]

Not everything in that post was directed at you, just a general explanation of how the site is ran... again... explanations aren't always the best way to get things out I guess. But I think you did miss the whole point about Alt.fan... MW popped up and it took people here, you gotta ask yourself why. And I used the other sites as a counterbalance to that example, but if you have to take things personally so be it...

wow and people say I'm thin skinned on the boards.

[Mr March]

I get PMs both thanking me and PMs that disagree, but man... you should see the hate mails. I also get the blame for threads I didnt close, members that were banned, and of course the good old abuse of power accusation.

I don't think I've thanked any of the staff here at MW, except Graham and azrael for submissions and fact help. Perhaps it doesn't count since you've already brought it up, but for what it's worth, thanks to all the MW staff for moderating these forums. Better late than never, I hope

[Oihan]

Not everything in that post was directed at you, just a general explanation of how the site is ran... again... explanations aren't always the best way to get things out I guess. But I think you did miss the whole point about Alt.fan... MW popped up and it took people here, you gotta ask yourself why. And I used the other sites as a counterbalance to that example, but if you have to take things personally so be it...

wow and people say I'm thin skinned on the boards.

LOL...I was kidding...>EXO<. I guess emoticons aren't enough these days.

On a more serious note. About AFM...you asked where it is now. I honestly don't know why people left AFM for MW. I don't think it was because of the lack of moderation or the spam/advertisments. Back when Deja News was still around, I don't recall seeing any spam or advertisments to be honest...maybe my memory is fuzzy.... I think it was around the time MW popped up that I started to see/notice spam and advertisements. Not to say MW is at fault for AFM's down fall...just something I've noticed.

If I have missed the whole point about Alt.Fan.Macross...my apologies. Would you then please elaborate?

[eugimon]

Having come from aquarium boards... I have to say the level of elitism here approaches not at all what one could find at any number of reef boards, FW planted tank boards, photography boards, and some general topic boards.

I understand that the level of esoteric macross knowledge here can be daunting and not all members are friendly but if it means anything, I've seen far worse. And having been a mod myself and having to referee an online fight that devolved to the point where one member was being harassed across multiple boards and in real life... I have to say I've never seen anything here that go to such a level.

Could we be better? Sure... but I think most people here are actually happy to talk about topic X to the nth power as long as the OP is honest and sincere.

Edited March 19, 2009 by eugimon

[EXO]

LOL...I was kidding...>EXO<. I guess emoticons aren't enough these days.

On a more serious note. About AFM...you asked where it is now. I honestly don't know why people left AFM for MW. I don't think it was because of the lack of moderation or the spam/advertisments. Back when Deja News was still around, I don't recall seeing any spam or advertisments to be honest...maybe my memory is fuzzy.... I think it was around the time MW popped up that I started to see/notice spam and advertisements. Not to say MW is at fault for AFM's down fall...just something I've noticed.

If I have missed the whole point about Alt.Fan.Macross...my apologies. Would you then please elaborate?

my apologies... I actually do skip over smileys now, even though I try to use them myself sometimes.

All I'm saying was that if Alt.Fan worked so well (even without the spam and adverts), it'll still be around or something else like it would have taken over. Everything loses it's relevancy, as will MW someday. But MW's staying power is pretty good, (thanks to Shawn who still pays all the bills). But it's all the members whose support has kept it momentum pretty strong for a small community.

[David Hingtgen]

That final point does need to be re-iterated I think:

The full name of the place is *Shawn and Graham's* Macross World. Shawn pays for everyone's ability to post here out of his own pocket. It is run/moderated according to his wishes. Honestly he doesn't post much any more, but if he didn't care---he wouldn't keep paying the bills every month, or comb through session logs line-by-line when something goes wrong.

[Mog]

^^That is true.

We haven't had one of those annual "The MW Forums are down for maintenance" week (or weeks!!) in a long while now (knock on wood). So, we gotta give credit where credit is due.

Also, it's a pretty telling sign that this is generally my "go to" site when I'm gallavanting across the Internets.

Count me in as one of those silent majority folks that's satisfied with the current scope and breadth of the MW forums. A good chunk of my interest and hobbies are already covered by this forum.

And for those few times where MW doesn't cover my interests or go into enough depth on a certain topic (like say, sports or a more in-depth discussion/review on a TV show or episode), well, hell, there are other sites out there to cater to my other interests.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Mog

[m0n5t3r]

BIG THANKS Shawn!

[EXO]

Actually I know *exactly* how that started. But that's not for this thread/topic.

link me on PM!!!

[VFTF1]

On the subject of moderating - I would like to point out one interesting, IMO, thing.

Thus far, in my life on the net, I've been banned from two forums. Surprised? Want to know why? Because the moderators didn't moderate.

What do I mean?

Simple:

If there are no strict rules that are strictly enforced, or if the moderators are wishy washy in enforcement, and basically let "pals" off the hook while coming down hard on other people - then nobody knws what's ok and what isn't on a forum. Needless to say, I'm expert at stretching the bounds of good taste, interpreting rules etc etc. I'm the kind of forum member who needs moderators to know what their doing and why.

I authentically hate forums where the moderators are wishy washy and the rules aren't strict and simple because then stupid things develop and all decision are basically ad hoc.

Yeah, sure, it might sting for 5 seconds when a thread is locked on MW, but at least you know WHY and at least it happens to everyone (just about).

It would be much worse if things weren't as clear cut - because that's when people really legitamitely get upset because they had no clue when or wherer they crossed the line because no body ever bothered to draw those lines.

Pete

[miriya]

BIG THANKS Shawn!

Yes, BIG THANKS to Shawn for sure. This is the greatest forum.

...It would be much worse if things weren't as clear cut - because that's when people really legitamitely get upset because they had no clue when or wherer they crossed the line because no body ever bothered to draw those lines...

Exactly my point!!! I am still wondering what happend to the thread I created on March 13th that I mentioned earlier in this thread that was not only closed but dissapeared with no trace and posts removed with no explanation or warning or anything as if it never happened. I WANT TO KNOW IF I BROKE ANY RULES but I have not heard anything from any moderators. If I broke any rules I would want to know so that I do not do it again. If I did not break any rules then I would at least like an explanation of why the thread was pulverized. So in this case it is not so clear cut and is a bit wishy washy. Any Mods on this thread please feel free to let me know what happened and why. Thanks.

Edited March 19, 2009 by miriya

[EXO]

I'm gonna stick to my decision on silent modding... check out my sig. I believe I did my duty correctly because members were warned before actions were taken. Of course people think that they are way more important than they are so, they gotta make a stink... if not here then somewhere else. Roger was never banned from MW. To cry somewhere else about it is kinda, I don't know what word to even use... so insert word for me there... But then to lie about it and say that the owner of the site vindicated him, someone that would never take donations in order to not play favorites, someone that stays out of moderation decisions... to say that Shawn lifted his so called BAN? And accuse me of pulling some trigger that I never did... and in a place that they obviously hates us. It's funny because we're being accused of elitism and fraternizing... but that's all that thread really is. I guess they're way above us because they're beyond elitism... does that even make sense? And that dig about "go ahead and email Shawn" was making fun of the fact that he always threatens to email Shawn... it was taken out of context and it looked like some kind of threat on their thread... but then it turns out Roger did email Shawn... so again...

EXO... soon to be silent mod... I promise...

[sketchley]

Go with the silent mod. No one will know who did it, thus they'll only have the boards as a target, not a specific person/moderator. It'll save you a lot of grief, and headaches.

(Speaking as a moderator // administrator on another forum)

[Excillon]

Bah...I wouldn't worry, people like that have a way of filtering out, sometimes unfortunately they don't filter out as quick as they filter in. The problem is that people don't know how to debate and agree to disagree, people have to get nasty and name call, start flame wars and etc. EXO, I'd call Roger a f**king tool for you, except a tool is useful and he isn't. Don't get in a war with him, you're a good mod and he's not worth it.

While I agree that I wish there was some way to diversify the forums, I understand why they don't. It's too much of a headache. 18,000 different threads blasting the stimulus package? Ugh, I come here to get a way from that. Maybe a philosophy forum...call it the new age hippie crap forum. Or since all the great philosophers were from ancient Greece, the "Greek love" forum. At least if you named it that, no one would be caught dead posting in it. All in all, I think the Anime/Science fiction forum does fine for off-topic stuff. I get my Gundam fix, my Eva fix, and all else from there. Anyone who thinks this sucks head on over to a certain "botcon award winning TF website" out of Chicago, IL if you want to see a real mess. Immature mods and admins., lots of spamming idiot posters, and a Buy/Trade forum that's an absolute mess! This is the only site I post on, and there's a reason for that.

So, genuinely and without sucking up, thanks Graham, Shawn, and all the mods for making this my favorite site.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Excillon

[promethuem5]

I'm going avoid most of the moderating bombshells in this thread, (and the fact that I have NO idea how this thread stayed open for more than an hour), as I usually stay out of the shenanigans, but yeah, it definitely needs to be said more than I think most all of the community here is impossibly grateful for the continuing existence of this place. I've been here for a long time, but not forever, and even tho I hang out plenty of other places, I still consider MW my number 1 haunt.

Edited March 21, 2009 by promethuem5

[Oihan]

I'm gonna stick to my decision on silent modding... check out my sig. I believe I did my duty correctly because members were warned before actions were taken. Of course people think that they are way more important than they are so, they gotta make a stink... if not here then somewhere else. Roger was never banned from MW. To cry somewhere else about it is kinda, I don't know what word to even use... so insert word for me there... But then to lie about it and say that the owner of the site vindicated him, someone that would never take donations in order to not play favorites, someone that stays out of moderation decisions... to say that Shawn lifted his so called BAN? And accuse me of pulling some trigger that I never did... and in a place that they obviously hates us. It's funny because we're being accused of elitism and fraternizing... but that's all that thread really is. I guess they're way above us because they're beyond elitism... does that even make sense? And that dig about "go ahead and email" Shawn was making fun ofthe fact that he always threatens to email Shawn... it was taken out of context and it looked like some kind of threat on their thread... but then it turns out Roger did email Shawn... so again...

EXO... soon to be silent mod... I promise...

...Wow, that stinks. It's amazing how vindictive some people can be. ...By the way...when I say elitism...I'm referring to those who make snide remarks when they see something being rehashed or what have ya. I don't see MW, as a whole, as some kind of elitist community. I just wanted to throw that out there...cause I don't people to think that's how I see MW. Again, I don't know where else I'm going to find Macross fanatics like myself....

[Roy Focker]

In a perfect world you wouldn't even need Mods. No one would get insulted or offended because everyone would be nice. People would disagree but no one's ego would be assaulted. Every topic would be on topic. No one would be an attention seeking posting whore. One could post something about their religion or Political views without someone making a crack about them. Too bad this isn't a perfect world.

[yellowlightman]

Agent One and I are still waiting to hear back on our applications to be moderators. Any word on that?

[David Hingtgen]

How about you two just moderate each other?

[EXO]

This site, as a whole, moderates itself well. We pretty much just put the fires out.

[Roy Focker]

This site, as a whole, moderates itself well. We pretty much just put the fires out.

Yeah by Peeing on it.

[yellowlightman]

How about you two just moderate each other?

As tag-team partners in the Western States Arm Wrestling Semi-Pro League, I'm afraid it would be impossible for us to judge each others posts without bias. Such is the nature of semi-professional arm wrestling and the bonds formed therein. Not to mention that I struggle to find a single post bequeathed by either A1 or myself unto this board that is deserving of moderation.

[miriya]

Regarding the complaining that I did previously on this thread, 2 mods contacted me and explained the situation that I mentioned there and they were both very helpful and respectful and cleared up my questioning. Thanks mods! It is appreciated.

[VFTF1]

I just wanna get back on topic for a minute and also point out that, insofar as we members might sometimes be frustrated by mods modding us, imagine how frustrating it must be for mods and admin when members open topics like this with a salvo of allegations and then up and walk off without even waiting to see whether there will be some positive action or response taken to placate them?

I still find it funny that this topic is now 4 pages long and basically totally off-topic, because the original poster never followed up.

Pete

[Dangard Ace]

I just wanna get back on topic for a minute and also point out that, insofar as we members might sometimes be frustrated by mods modding us, imagine how frustrating it must be for mods and admin when members open topics like this with a salvo of allegations and then up and walk off without even waiting to see whether there will be some positive action or response taken to placate them?

I still find it funny that this topic is now 4 pages long and basically totally off-topic, because the original poster never followed up.

Pete

Not really.

[Agent ONE]

Yeah by Peeing on it.

Quoted for truth.

I agree, your attitude sucks. LOL

[Jasonc]

I agree, this topic seems to be dragging a bit, and the O/T discussion has been going for quite sometime. Something I wonder if the original starter of this thread is even watching it (doubt they have any cahones to write back, as demonstrated). Anyways, I smell lockage on the way shortly.