Firing the gunpod in fighter mode-- dangerous?

[The Saint]

How exactly do you figure that? Why would an aircraft need to accommodate a gun operating at a level that is self-destructive and tactically impractical? "We've included a useless setting in our accessory to your vehicle, and we demand that you build the rest of your vehicle to accommodate that one setting that you're never going to use"?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Saint, AKA new kid, don't start arguing off the bat. It's not good for your reputation.

I can understand your points, but you don't have to pull this apeface motif.

MOVING ON:

T-80: Apparently you didn't understand. T-80 is a generic term used to describe Russian tanks. It's like Valkyrie to a VF. Not all are Valkyries, but it's enough to invoke the image of one. T-80 is enough to invoke the image of a Ruskie tank.

20mm doesn't shred armor: Uh-huh. And that's why an inefficient, somewhat expensive round is in place, right? The 20mm round, at one inch in diameter, is an armor shredder. This thing can literally blow a human head off, just out of sheer size and momentum. Aluminum and titanium armor on a plane will fare little better, considering how light the stuff is. 23 and 27 are better for it, but 20 is damn good.

30mm doesn't shred tank armor: Yup, that's why a STRAFE RUN at 100+ MPH can take out a tank in less than a second's firing. When you strafe someone, you don't have time to line up for the weakest point. You just aim in its general direction and hope your HUD was right. Tank armor is thicker all-around than any plane armor.

55mm: It's among the smaller classes of rounds on a ship's heavy cannons. These things are designed to take out gunboats and attackers. Futureweapons covered a 57mm Bofors cannon recently.

Real fighters: But, one must realize that the laws of physics still apply. This isn't Gundam where one can defy physics. Macross is rooted in those laws, as far as a good mecha anime can go. If I'm using real fighters as a basis, say an F-14 can destroy a Su-33D with 20mm rounds in seconds, and the same is true in reverse, and a 30mm cannon will destroy a TANK, then 35mm and 55mm will destroy a VF with ECA that toughens the armor to as strong as a TANK. Get it?

CIWS is not considered an autocannon. It's considered an antimissile and antifighter defense system. Autocannons are the heavy guns that don't fire as fast.

You've made some moot points, but this one is pretty bad:

RoF: Well, just because it's not ALWAYS set to the highest, it CAN BE set to the highest, and still operate. If it can't be set to its maximum setting and run, that's not its max. setting. The same goes for the vehicle you mount the equipment in. If it can't handle the side-effects of operating the equipment at its fullest, it's not going to be paired with it. It's symbiosis.

Anyway, Welcome to MacrossWorld, The Saint. Hope you have a nice stay. A bit of advice as to how to deal with me, I never mean anything personally. I don't try to offend, but I come off as a dick sometimes. I onlymean to offend in situations where people use the wrong info and say it's right. Especially if they continue to use it when more than one person is proving it wrong.

[David Hingtgen]

1/2 mod-warning, and 1/2 comment:

Sorry but I have to take Saint's side when it comes to T-80. That means T-80, not "russian tank". F-14 means F-14, not "fighter jet".

[SchizophrenicMC]

1/2 mod-warning, and 1/2 comment:

Sorry but I have to take Saint's side when it comes to T-80. That means T-80, not "russian tank". F-14 means F-14, not "fighter jet".

Well, when I say T-80, it invokes an image in your mind of a Russian tank, non? And if I say F-14, it invokes an American Fighter, right? It's all about the generalized view, which is why it's a Generic term.

Now, T-80, F-14, whatever, isn't important.

What is is the ability or lack thereof of a VF to shoot itself down in Fighter mode with its own gunpod.

The general consensus is no.

It works for me.

[anime52k8]

You're arguing a false point. While the M61A2 and the GAU-8 may not be fired at their highest rate of 6000 or 4600 rpm respectively, the fact remains that they can be. They were built to withstand it. And the aircraft they are built into, or built around as the case of the A-10, have to be built to withstand the recoil as well.

I'd just like to say this once again a little louder: THE GU-11'S RATE OF FIRE IS 1,200 ROUNDS PER MINUTE

that is the official number, so that's how fast it fires. 1200rpm is slow for a gatling type gun (even with only 3 barrels) in fact it's slower than many single barrel guns, (the BK-27 is around 1,700rpm and the GSh-30-1 is 1,500~1,700rpm)

T-80: Apparently you didn't understand. T-80 is a generic term used to describe Russian tanks. It's like Valkyrie to a VF. Not all are Valkyries, but it's enough to invoke the image of one. T-80 is enough to invoke the image of a Ruskie tank.

except that the T-80 is hardly the poster child for soviet tank's especially ones that have been largely exported. if you had said T-72 not only would you have been factually acurate, you'd also had made your point better since the T-72 is THE definitive russian tank.

20mm doesn't shred armor: Uh-huh. And that's why an inefficient, somewhat expensive round is in place, right? The 20mm round, at one inch in diameter, is an armor shredder. This thing can literally blow a human head off, just out of sheer size and momentum. Aluminum and titanium armor on a plane will fare little better, considering how light the stuff is. 23 and 27 are better for it, but 20 is damn good.

a human head is hardly a good measuring block as to how effective something is at penatrating armor. basically the 20mm round sucks, especially the PGU-28/B round they're currently using. even with the faster PGU-28 the balistic characteristics on the 20mm round are crap not to mention a high instance of catastrophic gun destroying premature detonations. the only good thing about the 20mm round is that you can carry an ass load of it on a plane. (an SU-27 with a GSh-30-1 carries 150 30mm rounds, the F-15 with an M61A1 carries 940 rounds). it's sort of like the F-86 with 6 .50 calibers vs the Mig-15 with 2 23mm and 1 37mm. the F-86 had a lot more ammo and threw out a lot more lead, but the Mig only needed a to make 2-3 hits with those big cannons to take an American jet down

the reason the US uses the M61A1 is because it's fast and has small ammo, you can usually carrie enough to kill a few planes but it will take a lot longer

30mm doesn't shred tank armor: Yup, that's why a STRAFE RUN at 100+ MPH can take out a tank in less than a second's firing. When you strafe someone, you don't have time to line up for the weakest point. You just aim in its general direction and hope your HUD was right. Tank armor is thicker all-around than any plane armor.

the very nature of shooting a tank from the air results in the plane shooting the weekest part of the tank (top side).

Anyway, Welcome to MacrossWorld, The Saint. Hope you have a nice stay. A bit of advice as to how to deal with me, I never mean anything personally. I don't try to offend, but I come off as a dick sometimes. I onlymean to offend in situations where people use the wrong info and say it's right. Especially if they continue to use it when more than one person is proving it wrong.

and I'd like to say welcome to MW as well, never take anything schizo says too seriously, he has a tendency to argue points to the grave. (for proof go look several pages back for the valk design thread)

[Killer Robot]

20mm doesn't shred armor: Uh-huh. And that's why an inefficient, somewhat expensive round is in place, right? The 20mm round, at one inch in diameter, is an armor shredder. This thing can literally blow a human head off, just out of sheer size and momentum. Aluminum and titanium armor on a plane will fare little better, considering how light the stuff is. 23 and 27 are better for it, but 20 is damn good.

Human heads are not armored. Neither are most military aircraft, not in the sense of "armor" as the word is used for anything on the ground or water. Even the A-10, an aircraft designed specifically to survive punishment from ground fire, does it mostly by means of an overengineered frame and lots of redundant systems. Armor in the sense of a hard coating meant to stop bullets is mainly just used for the "bathtub" around the pilot and some critical flight control components.

Why is the Vulcan still so popular? The US military has a love of standardization in many systems: not in all, but this is a classic case. In part, this is because the US doesn't prioritize guns on its fighters as much as some other militaries do. It's not as bad as when they decided guns were entirely obsolete in the 1960s so designed the original F-4 as a missile-only craft, but US fighter doctrine still gives its love to distance kills with missiles, so it's no wonder they're not rushing to replace it.

30mm doesn't shred tank armor: Yup, that's why a STRAFE RUN at 100+ MPH can take out a tank in less than a second's firing. When you strafe someone, you don't have time to line up for the weakest point. You just aim in its general direction and hope your HUD was right. Tank armor is thicker all-around than any plane armor.

That ignores the complexities both of how tank armor works, and how strafing works. Even the weak points of tank armor are stronger than the tough points of aircraft, that's true. That's why the GAU-8 is much heavier than smaller aircraft guns like the Vulcan, and has a higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity than even 25-30mm guns meant for air-to-air rather than air-to ground. But even then, it's a world smaller than the 105mm or larger rounds used in tank guns, or AC-130 gunships: penetration depends on the fact that tank armor is still much thinner from above or the side, and where the armor slope tanks rely on against ground attack can't help. It also depends on heavy clustering: strafing isn't a matter of dipping your nose down, pressing the button, and waiting for the explosions. It's a rather dangerous and difficult method of lining up a steady shot while flying rapidly through the air, sending 60 or so rounds at the target(that 'less than a second' you mentioned), and trying to land them in a tight cluster while knowing you make a good target in return. Of course it looks easy and flawless on Youtube: who posts the runs that don't do much?

Real fighters: But, one must realize that the laws of physics still apply. This isn't Gundam where one can defy physics. Macross is rooted in those laws, as far as a good mecha anime can go. If I'm using real fighters as a basis, say an F-14 can destroy a Su-33D with 20mm rounds in seconds, and the same is true in reverse, and a 30mm cannon will destroy a TANK, then 35mm and 55mm will destroy a VF with ECA that toughens the armor to as strong as a TANK. Get it?

It's not that physics is different, it's that the vehicles are different. You've made the important point right there: The VF with ECA has armor like a tank's. But since it's an aircraft with multiple configurations fighting in a high-speed three dimensional environment, it can't use the tricks tanks do with their armor: no easy loading on the front plate, no sloped armor, no way to only really need to be strong against heavy weapons from another tank in front of you. So either the VF is protected like the thin parts of a tank, which I don't think is what most people say when they mean "like a tank", or else it's protected like the strong parts of a tank, only in a much more all-over fashion. Further, it's a lot faster and more maneuverable than a tank: remember what I said about strafing and clustering? It may not be easy work, but it still relies on tanks being relatively slow and not able to accelerate and dodge like a VF does. This means that a 20mm M61 would be useless. It means a 30mm GAU-8 wouldn't be at its best even if you could get the VF to hold still while you put a whole burst in. It means, in short, you need a new gun.

This brings us to the 55mm VF-1 gunpod. Sure, it's half the diameter of a 105-125mm MBT gun, but if Mr. March's estimates of muzzle velocities over 3000 m/s are correct, its rounds are going much faster, and the 1200rpm rate of fire is well ahead of the 8-12rpm you might get out of conventional tanks, so really it sounds like about what you need to kill heavily armored supersonic vehicles. I suppose my basic point is, you're talking about futuristic weapons. Even if you don't want your OverTech flaunting the laws of physics too badly, applying modern examples is like applying WWI anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons design standards to what we have now.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Human heads are not armored. Neither are most military aircraft, not in the sense of "armor" as the word is used for anything on the ground or water. Even the A-10, an aircraft designed specifically to survive punishment from ground fire, does it mostly by means of an overengineered frame and lots of redundant systems. Armor in the sense of a hard coating meant to stop bullets is mainly just used for the "bathtub" around the pilot and some critical flight control components.

Why is the Vulcan still so popular? The US military has a love of standardization in many systems: not in all, but this is a classic case. In part, this is because the US doesn't prioritize guns on its fighters as much as some other militaries do. It's not as bad as when they decided guns were entirely obsolete in the 1960s so designed the original F-4 as a missile-only craft, but US fighter doctrine still gives its love to distance kills with missiles, so it's no wonder they're not rushing to replace it.

That ignores the complexities both of how tank armor works, and how strafing works. Even the weak points of tank armor are stronger than the tough points of aircraft, that's true. That's why the GAU-8 is much heavier than smaller aircraft guns like the Vulcan, and has a higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity than even 25-30mm guns meant for air-to-air rather than air-to ground. But even then, it's a world smaller than the 105mm or larger rounds used in tank guns, or AC-130 gunships: penetration depends on the fact that tank armor is still much thinner from above or the side, and where the armor slope tanks rely on against ground attack can't help. It also depends on heavy clustering: strafing isn't a matter of dipping your nose down, pressing the button, and waiting for the explosions. It's a rather dangerous and difficult method of lining up a steady shot while flying rapidly through the air, sending 60 or so rounds at the target(that 'less than a second' you mentioned), and trying to land them in a tight cluster while knowing you make a good target in return. Of course it looks easy and flawless on Youtube: who posts the runs that don't do much?

It's not that physics is different, it's that the vehicles are different. You've made the important point right there: The VF with ECA has armor like a tank's. But since it's an aircraft with multiple configurations fighting in a high-speed three dimensional environment, it can't use the tricks tanks do with their armor: no easy loading on the front plate, no sloped armor, no way to only really need to be strong against heavy weapons from another tank in front of you. So either the VF is protected like the thin parts of a tank, which I don't think is what most people say when they mean "like a tank", or else it's protected like the strong parts of a tank, only in a much more all-over fashion. Further, it's a lot faster and more maneuverable than a tank: remember what I said about strafing and clustering? It may not be easy work, but it still relies on tanks being relatively slow and not able to accelerate and dodge like a VF does. This means that a 20mm M61 would be useless. It means a 30mm GAU-8 wouldn't be at its best even if you could get the VF to hold still while you put a whole burst in. It means, in short, you need a new gun.

This brings us to the 55mm VF-1 gunpod. Sure, it's half the diameter of a 105-125mm MBT gun, but if Mr. March's estimates of muzzle velocities over 3000 m/s are correct, its rounds are going much faster, and the 1200rpm rate of fire is well ahead of the 8-12rpm you might get out of conventional tanks, so really it sounds like about what you need to kill heavily armored supersonic vehicles. I suppose my basic point is, you're talking about futuristic weapons. Even if you don't want your OverTech flaunting the laws of physics too badly, applying modern examples is like applying WWI anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons design standards to what we have now.

And all of this brings me back to my original point: 55mm is HUGE. So, how come it takes so many shots from a 55mm (or more, as caliber increases for some of the VFs. For example, the VF-25's was 58mm) to down an enemy? I mean, we all remember the Zentraedi Hikaru shot at towards the beginning of SDFM. He blew the entire ammo belt, 200 55mm rounds, into that Regult, and the pilot was still able to get out, not ripped to shreds. Is this anime magic? That's a small, ship cannon there.

[anime52k8]

And all of this brings me back to my original point: 55mm is HUGE. So, how come it takes so many shots from a 55mm (or more, as caliber increases for some of the VFs. For example, the VF-25's was 58mm) to down an enemy? I mean, we all remember the Zentraedi Hikaru shot at towards the beginning of SDFM. He blew the entire ammo belt, 200 55mm rounds, into that Regult, and the pilot was still able to get out, not ripped to shreds. Is this anime magic? That's a small, ship cannon there.

maybe Hikaru is just that bad of a shot that every round he fired missed hitting the Zent pilot in a vital spot.

[hobbes221]

maybe Hikaru is just that bad of a shot that every round he fired missed hitting the Zent pilot in a vital spot.

Or they were running low on gunpods with a combat loads and he got one of the ones loaded with cheap aluminum cored training rounds

[Morpheus]

Or they were running low on gunpods with a combat loads and he got one of the ones loaded with cheap aluminum cored training rounds

Well, he is using a VF-1D after all, maybe its all dummy AP ammo.

Other explanation, plotwise, it allow us the true horror of a Zentraedi as a giant.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Or they were running low on gunpods with a combat loads and he got one of the ones loaded with cheap aluminum cored training rounds

Even if he's using the trainer, the weapons team said he was good-to-go, AKA Combat-ready. That means he'd have live 55s loaded in the gp.

I don't think they'd be low on gunpods that early in the war. I just think it was a plot device, designed to expose the main character to his enemy.

Yes, I am high right now.

[hobbes221]

First off it was mainly a joke and second they were at what amounts to an airshow so I wonder just as to how long getting live ammo would have taken.

And is was a joke.

Oh the whole plot device thingy.

[ChronoReverse]

What exactly is being argued here anyway? Shouldn't it be clear that VF's are really tough and takes much more powerful weapons?

In any case, any gun designed for modern targets, whether it be aircraft (which don't have armor) or tanks, is utterly outclassed by the requirements of the Macross world. It very well could be that even a 55mm round at 3000m/s muzzle velocities is still mostly a pop-gun (of course, it could simply be something they didn't think of when they did that scene )

Edited February 19, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[anime52k8]

What exactly is being argued here anyway? Shouldn't it be clear that VF's are really tough and takes much more powerful weapons?

In any case, any gun designed for modern targets, whether it be aircraft (which don't have armor) or tanks, is utterly outclassed by the requirements of the Macross world. It very well could be that even a 55mm round at 3000m/s muzzle velocities is still mostly a pop-gun (of course, it could simply be something they didn't think of when they did that scene )

I think training loads and oversight are the best explanations for the scene.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I think training loads and oversight are the best explanations for the scene.

Except 200 55mm training rounds will still blow the hell out a lot of stuff, Regults included...

Again, plot device. This requires a touch of anime magic.

[blobness]

Even though Hikaru discharged practically his entire ammo load AT the Regult, I seem to recall only a few of the rounds actually making contact. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but the way I remember it he score somewhere on the order of four or five ACTUAL hits, which I think took off the main guns or something else that was vital. Plus, the pilot did look a little shredded when he got out, just not mortally wounded.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Even though Hikaru discharged practically his entire ammo load AT the Regult, I seem to recall only a few of the rounds actually making contact. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but the way I remember it he score somewhere on the order of four or five ACTUAL hits, which I think took off the main guns or something else that was vital. Plus, the pilot did look a little shredded when he got out, just not mortally wounded.

Given, there was a wide spray, but many more than 4 or 5 hit. Those were just highlighted to show the degradation of a Regult due to the effects of Lead rain.

It had to be along the lines of at least 100 point-blank hits.

[blobness]

Good point. I keep forgetting animators work in a time frame, and so cant be bothered drawing each individual impact. But it cant be denied that the Zentradi pilot stepped out of his pod looking extremely beat to hell.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Good point. I keep forgetting animators work in a time frame, and so cant be bothered drawing each individual impact. But it cant be denied that the Zentradi pilot stepped out of his pod looking extremely beat to hell.

Beat to hell, yes.

Holey-er than swiss cheese, no.