Firing the gunpod in fighter mode-- dangerous?

[edwin3060]

You can Faraday cage electrical hardlines to eliminate interference. If you're using fibre optics (which they likely are), there's even less chance of outside interference.

Instead of magnetisim, why not some sort of unknown super dimensional science effect? Maybe it's the same science that's responsible for energy-converting armor. Inlay an energy grid in two opposing veritech surfaces that are meant to seat flush together in battroid mod. Channel power across the two and by the blessing of OverTech, they move towards each other and are held there by the same force that makes the armor stronger.

I'm not as worried about that as I am about how the hardlines route through all the actuators and moving parts. Besides, we already have a simple, elegant solution staring us in the face, why do things the hard way? (Pun intended ).

As to the second point, mainly because magnetism has been mentioned and that super dimensional effect has not. Besides, SK usually takes inspiration from real life and I see many robotics ideas incorporated into Mac F such as the Ex Gear system.

Edited February 15, 2009 by edwin3060

[The Saint]

I'm not as worried about that as I am about how the hardlines route through all the actuators and moving parts. Besides, we already have a simple, elegant solution staring us in the face, why do things the hard way? (Pun intended ).

Because wireless isn't a more elegant solution, it's a more vulnerable solution. Having a frequency-agile wireless system won't protect you against a broad spectrum jamming intended on overloading your all receivers.

In comparison, wiring through actuators and moving parts isn't that big a deal when you consider some of the stuff OverTech can do. The vulnerability of hard line to ECM compared to wireless is trivial, and you're not a giant EMCON headache.

As to the second point, mainly because magnetism has been mentioned and that super dimensional effect has not. Besides, SK usually takes inspiration from real life and I see many robotics ideas incorporated into Mac F such as the Ex Gear system.

You can't build veritechs based on real science at all, so I think super dimensional effects wins this contest. Seems like Macross takes more real life inspiration of how things look and feel, rather than how real science works.

[SchizophrenicMC]

EVERYONE, SHUT THE F*CK UP!

You all are WAY off topic, dammit. This is about danger of firing a gunpod in fighter mode, not transformation, mounting points, real-world weapons, or anything else! Goddamn it.

Now, can we just get a general concensus? Is it dangerous or not? I say not.

Not: 1

Is: 0

[Syngyne]

EVERYONE, SHUT THE F*CK UP!

You all are WAY off topic, dammit. This is about danger of firing a gunpod in fighter mode, not transformation, mounting points, real-world weapons, or anything else! Goddamn it.

Now, can we just get a general concensus? Is it dangerous or not? I say not.

Not: 1

Is: 0

Eh, the general consensus has been no. I don't think there's any harm if it goes a bit off-tangent from here.

[SchizophrenicMC]

It's not a BIT off-tangent. People are talking about the "linear actuators" used in transforming a VF-25. If you wanna talk about that, maybe do it in Valk Designs Thread or Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread. Not here, where the discussion is shooting yourself down. I don't wanna sound like "that guy" but I will do it to save this from itself.

[Syngyne]

It's not a BIT off-tangent. People are talking about the "linear actuators" used in transforming a VF-25. If you wanna talk about that, maybe do it in Valk Designs Thread or Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread. Not here, where the discussion is shooting yourself down. I don't wanna sound like "that guy" but I will do it to save this from itself.

If this were your own thread about the subject, I could understand getting miffed about it going off topic and wanting to rerail it. However, it's not, and I don't really see the need for you to police it, especially by telling everyone to shut the f*ck up. That's seriously inappropriate.

I think the answer was pretty well covered and I don't mind if the discussion evolves into something else. It's not a big deal.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Syngyne

[David Hingtgen]

I'd say we are way OT and this should be in the mecha/tech thread.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Problem is, no one likes an OT thread. I've seen good threads shut down getting that OT.

Now, I only told them to shut up to get the point across. If I had some other way of getting it across, I would've. However, telling people to stfu is extremely effective if you use it right.

Again, people, use the dedicated threads for this stuff. I don't like reading about how a VF-25 transforms when I'm supposed to be reading about how a gunpod could shoot you down.

No offense to anyone. I've covered this countless (ok, 3) times before. I'm a nice guy, but I sometimes come off as a dick.

[azrael]

Best way to not get off-topic is to not respond to an off-topic post. Now if you're not going to talk about the topic, then fine, this thread gets shut down and any offenders will take a vacation.

Now back to the topic. And I highly doubt linear actuators have anything to do with gun muzzle velocities.

[NapalmRiot]

We could also go as far as the A-10... but that's actually nose-mounted, so I'm posting for no reason.

[SchizophrenicMC]

We could also go as far as the A-10... but that's actually nose-mounted, so I'm posting for no reason.

And, on that note, the A-10's never shot itself down, and there's only been like 3 A-10 kills in all history.

[David Hingtgen]

On the A-10's best mission in Desert Storm, 2 guys got at least 4 between them with the gun. (tallying at least 2 each on the first 2 sorties, don't know how many on the third). I'd assume quite a few more occurred with other missions/days/sorties through the war.

[SchizophrenicMC]

On the A-10's best mission in Desert Storm, 2 guys got at least 4 between them with the gun. (tallying at least 2 each on the first 2 sorties, don't know how many on the third). I'd assume quite a few more occurred with other missions/days/sorties through the war.

I meant 3 A-10s shot down...

Those things killed every T-80 in Iraq...

[Shadow]

I meant 3 A-10s shot down...

Those things killed every T-80 in Iraq...

I didn't think the Iraqi army had any T-80s. Only T-55s through T-72s. The stories of the A-10 kills reminded me of one I heard of an A-10 that used its gun against an Iraqi Mi-8 Hip helicopter. Tore the thing in half.

On topic of the gunpods. The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target? Not to mention how quickly it'd go through ammo.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Shadow

[anime52k8]

I didn't think the Iraqi army had any T-80s. Only T-55s through T-72s. The stories of the A-10 kills reminded me of one I heard of an A-10 that used its gun against an Iraqi Mi-8 Hip helicopter. Tore the thing in half.

On topic of the gunpods. The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target? Not to mention how quickly it'd go through ammo.

well for one the VF-1's only has a 1,200RPM rate of fire, compared to the A-10's 3,900RPM rate of fire. also the 55mm round for the VF-1 is fat but also short looking.

the casing looks more like a pistol round than a rifle round

[edwin3060]

I suspect VFs gunpods are optimized more for short range and outright blast damage rather than long range and armour penetration. Taken together with the micromissiles, VF combat at a whole has been (deliberately, I think) made to happen at short range for dramatic effects.

[hobbes221]

If you want sometime to compare it to RW check out what rounds have been made to work with the AR-15/M-16s. In the pic there are, from left to right- 5.56x45mm NATO, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf and .499 LWR. the last three are designed to give a huge punch when compared to 5.56 round but the trade off is mainly in range (without looking it up IIRC these round are limited to about 200 meters) and magazine count (about 10 rounds in the space that 30 5.56mm would take up) So maybe in the Macross world they feel that close in stopping power is more important that range as edwin3060 says. And the range becomes less of a problem in space without drag to effect the rounds.

-can we please take this to the tech thread, I don't want an vakay from an admin

[edwin3060]

If you want sometime to compare it to RW check out what rounds have been made to work with the AR-15/M-16s. In the pic there are, from left to right- 5.56x45mm NATO, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf and .499 LWR. the last three are designed to give a huge punch when compared to 5.56 round but the trade off is mainly in range (without looking it up IIRC these round are limited to about 200 meters) and magazine count (about 10 rounds in the space that 30 5.56mm would take up) So maybe in the Macross world they feel that close in stopping power is more important that range as edwin3060 says. And the range becomes less of a problem in space without drag to effect the rounds.

-can we please take this to the tech thread, I don't want an vakay from an admin

Well this is gunpod related And no one seems to be throwing a tantrum cuz they lost an argument so I think we're fine. While absolute range is less of a problem due to drag, the important thing in space, I think, is velocity--the shorter, fatter rounds will generally have a lower exit velocity and thus have a lower effective range even in space.

[hobbes221]

I do agree that velocity is important but the mass of the round does count for sometime as well. if I can keep using the 5.56mm and .458 SOCOM rounds as examples, the 5.56 round leaves the gun at around 3,000 feet per second while the .458 round gets going at about 2,000 fps - yet the .458 hits with almost 3,000 foot pounds of energy when the 5.56 has only 1,300 foot pounds. As I am not quite sure (are any of us?) as to how the energy converting armor system of the VF's works maybe more mass is needed to overcome the armor than a lighter, faster round. - not saying that I'm right and you're wrong just tossing out a different idea.

I would love to have some hard info on the cannons of the Valkyries, we only got some solid data for the GU-11 as far as I can remember.

I do a far amount of shooting myself and can say that the higher the velocity does not mean the more powerful the round will be, it comes down to how well that energy is transferred to the target. So we really need to know more info as I said, but it sure is fun thinking of what it could be in the mean time.

[sketchley]

On topic of the gunpods. The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target? Not to mention how quickly it'd go through ammo.

Watch Eps 01 closely. You'll see that despite the dozens of bullets that Fokker fires, only 2 or 3 actually hit the Sv-51. The 1st or 2nd episode of MF also has a gun pod that bounces around quite a lot (Ozuma scores more on the asteroid than he does the Vajra).

[The Saint]

The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target?

A 55mm round isn't that big when you consider the size and strength of the big robot firing it, plus the mass of the gunpod itself.

[edwin3060]

I do agree that velocity is important but the mass of the round does count for sometime as well. if I can keep using the 5.56mm and .458 SOCOM rounds as examples, the 5.56 round leaves the gun at around 3,000 feet per second while the .458 round gets going at about 2,000 fps - yet the .458 hits with almost 3,000 foot pounds of energy when the 5.56 has only 1,300 foot pounds. As I am not quite sure (are any of us?) as to how the energy converting armor system of the VF's works maybe more mass is needed to overcome the armor than a lighter, faster round. - not saying that I'm right and you're wrong just tossing out a different idea.

I would love to have some hard info on the cannons of the Valkyries, we only got some solid data for the GU-11 as far as I can remember.

I do a far amount of shooting myself and can say that the higher the velocity does not mean the more powerful the round will be, it comes down to how well that energy is transferred to the target. So we really need to know more info as I said, but it sure is fun thinking of what it could be in the mean time.

Thats certainly true-- however when I'm talking about velocity in space I'm actually referring more to the travel time of the bullet and how it affects the effective range of the weapon-- bigger, slower bullets would take longer to travel a given distance, thus giving the enemy time to react and evade etc. Hence the gun would need to be fired at a shorter distance to reduce the reaction time of the enemy. There will be a direct relationship, so a bullet that travels 2/3s as fast will only be effective to 2/3s the distance.

The Saint: Actually the VFs are about the size of modern day fighters and about the same mass as well. Given how much the A-10 vibrates when firing the 30mm GAU-8, and comparing the difference in reaction to the 20mm M61A1 on other fighters, I'd say that 55mm is a very very big step up!

[azrael]

On topic of the gunpods. The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target? Not to mention how quickly it'd go through ammo.

The VF-0 uses a 35mm gunpod.

One standard Howard GPU-9 35 mm gatling gun pod with 550 rounds (AHEAD rounds available).

[taksraven]

Looking at the placement of the gunpods on VFs like the Valkyrie and Messiah, is there any danger of the pilot blowing his craft's nose off? If, say, the VF was in space, and the pilot pitched the craft's nose down violently while firing the gunpod, would the rounds clear the nose before it swung down into their path?

My VF has no nose. How does it smell??? Awful!!!!

ha.

Taksraven

[The Saint]

The Saint: Actually the VFs are about the size of modern day fighters and about the same mass as well. Given how much the A-10 vibrates when firing the 30mm GAU-8, and comparing the difference in reaction to the 20mm M61A1 on other fighters, I'd say that 55mm is a very very big step up!

I never said VFs are heavier than modern fighters, I was trying to say that in relation to the rest of the fighter, a VF holding a gunpod is about the proportions as a man holding a rifle. In addition, the strength of the VF must be taken into account, in addition to the stability of the gunpod itself derived from its mass. Considering that we don't have any technology close to duplicating the performance of actuator strength and structural integrity, I think saying that 55mm is too much more a VF is an underestimation of OverTech. Besides, they obviously have no problem on screen. Why struggle against canon in this case?

[Killer Robot]

Or to put it another way, if a VF is designed to handle several times the thrust that any real fighter its size can without burning up or shaking apart, I don't consider handling several times the firepower to be too much of a stretch.

As for the weight, a lot of later VFs are considerably lighter than modern fighters of comparable size. At least they don't have styrofoam densities and commonly end up sinking like stones in water like some series I've seen though, so I guess that's okay.

[anime52k8]

My VF has no nose. How does it smell??? Awful!!!!

ha.

Taksraven

[SchizophrenicMC]

I didn't think the Iraqi army had any T-80s. Only T-55s through T-72s. The stories of the A-10 kills reminded me of one I heard of an A-10 that used its gun against an Iraqi Mi-8 Hip helicopter. Tore the thing in half.

On topic of the gunpods. The VF-0 and VF-1 used a 55mm gunpod. Wouldn't have firing a gun of that caliber especially in gerwalk and battleoid mode make it very difficult to keep it on target? Not to mention how quickly it'd go through ammo.

T-80's a generic term used to describe a Russian-designed tank...

And the 0 had a 35 mm gunpod. They are both hard to keep on target (I will elaborate further on), and they both shoot faster than their ammo count, which equals Anime Magic in the amount of times they can fire...

well for one the VF-1's only has a 1,200RPM rate of fire, compared to the A-10's 3,900RPM rate of fire. also the 55mm round for the VF-1 is fat but also short looking.

the casing looks more like a pistol round than a rifle round

This is good example, though I thought the A-10 had 4600 RPM. I dunno.

A 55mm round isn't that big when you consider the size and strength of the big robot firing it, plus the mass of the gunpod itself.

Well, actually, 55mm is bigger than any round being fielded today(By fighters)... By a whole lot. (Even the A-10) The M-61 Vulcan (Which is the gun in use on most of the USAF/USN arsenal) fires 20mm rounds. These shred armor pretty damn fast. To put this into perspective, 20mm is about an inch. Therefore, the round is about an inch in width. 55mm is over two inches. This is huge. The A-10 fires 30mm rounds. This is just over an inch. 30mm shreds a tank.

55mm is actually closer to ship-grade autocannon caliber than anything.

So, even with only one or 2 hits, that SV-51 is definitely down.

So, why then, did a Regult take an entire belt before the pilot stepped out?

[Killer Robot]

Well, actually, 55mm is bigger than any round being fielded today(By fighters)... By a whole lot. (Even the A-10) The M-61 Vulcan (Which is the gun in use on most of the USAF/USN arsenal) fires 20mm rounds. These shred armor pretty damn fast. To put this into perspective, 20mm is about an inch. Therefore, the round is about an inch in width. 55mm is over two inches. This is huge. The A-10 fires 30mm rounds. This is just over an inch. 30mm shreds a tank.

55mm is actually closer to ship-grade autocannon caliber than anything.

So, even with only one or 2 hits, that SV-51 is definitely down.

So, why then, did a Regult take an entire belt before the pilot stepped out?

It's important to note that the GAU-8 on the A-10 is designed to kill tanks by hitting their much weaker top and side armor rather than on their front plate, and even then relies on its enormous rate of fire to cluster shots in small areas. It appears that OT mecha use armor, energy converting or otherwise, that is more comparable to modern tank front armor or beyond, and so guns designed against them would reasonably need greater mass, greater muzzle velocity, or other special characteristics. It's like how the move to iron and steel armoring in steam era naval combat required whole new classes of weaponry to defeat. As for Hikaru against that first Regult, his shots were all over the place: if Valkyrie gunpods similarly rely on clustered fire to punch through armor, no wonder it didn't blow up halfway through the clip. A trained pilot learns to hold the gun steady.

[anime52k8]

Well, actually, 55mm is bigger than any round being fielded today(By fighters)... By a whole lot. (Even the A-10) The M-61 Vulcan (Which is the gun in use on most of the USAF/USN arsenal) fires 20mm rounds. These shred armor pretty damn fast. To put this into perspective, 20mm is about an inch. Therefore, the round is about an inch in width. 55mm is over two inches. This is huge. The A-10 fires 30mm rounds. This is just over an inch. 30mm shreds a tank.

55mm is actually closer to ship-grade autocannon caliber than anything.

So, even with only one or 2 hits, that SV-51 is definitely down.

So, why then, did a Regult take an entire belt before the pilot stepped out?

55mm is in the range of Anti-Aircraft auto cannons (40mm bofors being a prime example) or even light field guns

a discussion of the largest guns mounted on airplanes

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0174.shtml

[The Saint]

T-80's a generic term used to describe a Russian-designed tank...

No, it is not. T-80 refers to a specific model of Russian tank. Try to at least Wiki something like this before answering.

Well, actually, 55mm is bigger than any round being fielded today(By fighters)... By a whole lot. (Even the A-10)

Fighters today also don't transform, though... You can't keep using modern fighters as a comparison for why it wouldn't work in a fictional world with fictional fighters....

The M-61 Vulcan (Which is the gun in use on most of the USAF/USN arsenal) fires 20mm rounds. These shred armor pretty damn fast. To put this into perspective, 20mm is about an inch. Therefore, the round is about an inch in width. 55mm is over two inches. This is huge. The A-10 fires 30mm rounds. This is just over an inch. 30mm shreds a tank.

As KB pointed out, GAU-8's killing power is derived from going for the soft spot. Most people watch youtube videos of A-10s firing and cream themselves, without understanding the complexity behind what they're watching. How thin tank roofs (and certain spots on certain runs of certain Russian turret castings) are. How A-10s are actually suppose to shoot Mavericks at enemy tanks before getting gun happy. How Soviet AD would've killed so very many A-10s trying to use their gun if the balloon had actually went up, simply from the necessary flight profile for an optimal gun run.

As for 20mm.... No, it does not shred armour very fast or particularly well. 20mm is a weak round, the Americans don't use it because it's the best, they use it because they've gotten used to it. Over in Europe, you're not likely to find a fighter gun under 23mm, with 27mm being very popular.

It's also worth noting that most IFV don't use 20mm. The standard is 25mm, with 20mm being the low end for autocannons. Current world trend is towards replacing 20mm due to mediocre effective range and projectile weight.

55mm is actually closer to ship-grade autocannon caliber than anything.

The world average for CIWS is between 25 and 30mm. The Americans skew it downwards with the Phalanx, everyone else is 25mm or higher. I don't think anyone has build a CIWS over 40mm.

Unless you mean shipboard heavy cannons. I guess those are also autocannons, but they're more commonly referred to as artillery.

Finally, a "55mm" round is missing an important set of number: "x ###mm". Without it, you can't tell how big the round actually is. Could be a stubby round for all we know.

[miles316]

As KB pointed out, GAU-8's killing power is derived from going for the soft spot. Most people watch youtube videos of A-10s firing and cream themselves, without understanding the complexity behind what they're watching. How thin tank roofs (and certain spots on certain runs of certain Russian turret castings) are. How A-10s are actually suppose to shoot Mavericks at enemy tanks before getting gun happy. How Soviet AD would've killed so very many A-10s trying to use their gun if the balloon had actually went up, simply from the necessary flight profile for an optimal gun run.

As for 20mm.... No, it does not shred armour very fast or particularly well. 20mm is a weak round, the Americans don't use it because it's the best, they use it because they've gotten used to it. Over in Europe, you're not likely to find a fighter gun under 23mm, with 27mm being very popular.

It's also worth noting that most IFV don't use 20mm. The standard is 25mm, with 20mm being the low end for autocannons. Current world trend is towards replacing 20mm due to mediocre effective range and projectile weight.

The world average for CIWS is between 25 and 30mm. The Americans skew it downwards with the Phalanx, everyone else is 25mm or higher. I don't think anyone has build a CIWS over 40mm.

Unless you mean shipboard heavy cannons. I guess those are also autocannons, but they're more commonly referred to as artillery.

Finally, a "55mm" round is missing an important set of number: "x ###mm". Without it, you can't tell how big the round actually is. Could be a stubby round for all we know.

Bofors of Sweden builds a 50 mm DP gun used for ships that can wreck havoc on small boats and buildings. Future Weapons did a story and it was a cool weapon system.

Edited February 18, 2009 by miles316

[edwin3060]

Fighters today also don't transform, though... You can't keep using modern fighters as a comparison for why it wouldn't work in a fictional world with fictional fighters....

No one is saying that it couldn't work-- I think we are just trying to get a grip on what the effect such a large caliber would have on the aircraft. It's true that armoured vehicles and European aircraft guns have calibers 25mm or greater--- the F-35 has a 25mm gatling as well. But regardless of whether you are talking about an armoured vehicle, or the Eurofighter, remember that those are all single barrel cannons. VF gunpods are multibarrel gatlings with a firing rate at least 3-4 times greater than what we have today-- looking at the nice link that was provided the closes analogy is the Mosquito's 57mm 6 pounder gun-- called the 6 pounder because its ammunition, naturally, weighed 6 pounds. Imagine firing a 6 pound round at ~1000-3000 rpm and you can understand the insane amount of recoil the VF has to handle.

[The Saint]

You're not going to get insane rate of fire from only 3 barrels, and the rate of fire can be mechanically or electronically moderated. In other words, just because it's a gatling-style cannon doesn't mean it has to fire at the highest possible ROF. Neither the M61 or GAU-8 are set for their highest ROF. Having multiple barrel isn't just for ROF perks, it's also about heat tolerance (a big issue in space).

A gunpod isn't useful if it's designed to fire all its ammo in 0.5s and melt its barrels in the process.

[edwin3060]

You're not going to get insane rate of fire from only 3 barrels, and the rate of fire can be mechanically or electronically moderated. In other words, just because it's a gatling-style cannon doesn't mean it has to fire at the highest possible ROF. Neither the M61 or GAU-8 are set for their highest ROF. Having multiple barrel isn't just for ROF perks, it's also about heat tolerance (a big issue in space).

A gunpod isn't useful if it's designed to fire all its ammo in 0.5s and melt its barrels in the process.

You're arguing a false point. While the M61A2 and the GAU-8 may not be fired at their highest rate of 6000 or 4600 rpm respectively, the fact remains that they can be. They were built to withstand it. And the aircraft they are built into, or built around as the case of the A-10, have to be built to withstand the recoil as well.