Macross Believer!

[VFTF1]

But I think Zinjo was just saying that he would have preffered it if the three seperate anime were brought over under the umbrela of Robotech. Him using the word "fact" was - I think - just a kind of manner of speech. Like when someone says "I hate apples, in fact, they are disgusting" - doesn't mean it's really a fact...

At least that's how I understood him.

Also, nobody is blaming Macek in the sense of "ooo conspiracy of evil!" I think they are just saying - or at least I'm just saying - it would have been better, preferable (all IMO of course) if they hadn't changed the source material.

That quote from Macek is in Robotech Art III, which I have and sounds pretty much as vapid as most of the other stuff he wrote. It basically can be interpretated as such:

"This Japanese anime is fantastic! You'll love Japanese anime! Really! Don't be scared of Japanese anime! No need to be scared! We've taken out all of the crazy stuff but there really is something golden in it which we've retained."

Now - the way I see it - a story is either great on its' own merits or it sucks. It's hard for me to fathom that a story can "retain" what makes it golden without all of its' other parts.

That would kind of be like saying that a floating nice ass is the perfect woman. Sure, she has no legs, no arms, no breasts, no main body, no hair, no face - but hey - she's got ONE HECK OF AN ASS

As for whether Robotech was mothballed/succesfull/not successful - I say it was a failure. Heck - I didn't even get it on TV in the 80s and I lived in the USA - but it didn't get shown everywhere. Nobody knows about it.

Maybe nobody knows about Macross either - but at least it's worth knowing about

Of course these are all opinions - all of us are somewhat talking out of our butts.

But for me - one of the best things about Macrossworld is that we can point fingers and laugh at Robotech all we want

neener neener neener

don't take it too personally

Pete

ps - I agree with Mr. March's thoughts posted above.

[Zinjo]

Sure robotech exists, right now it's called "The Shadow Chronicles," and if that's what that fanbase wants, more power to them. Meanwhile, I'll watch Frontier.

Amen brother, Amen!

[Zinjo]

If there's one thing I hate it is people who talk knowledgable about something they are not.

I smell a fanboy rant coming on....

Carl Macek did not make the decision to combine the three shows under one storyline. He was initially hired by HG because he was an expert in anime and had a background in film. He immediately told them that Macross was the hidden gem in their archive and so they moved forward to produce a translation. Macross was conceptualized by him as a direct to video release using translations provided by Tatsunuko. HG Marketing made the decision to combine the three shows.

To quote Carl Macek, "Robotech was born out of necessity. Initially, the concepts and details of this complex science fiction saga were extrapolated from existing animated footage in order to satisfy a particular aesthetic direction which John Rocknowski, President of Harmony Gold Marketing described as "the king of storytelling in which the audience knows from the beginning it will not be short-changed". Robotech owes much of its success to the original material produced by Tatsunuko Studios." -Carl Macek, 1988

Before getting your back up, be sure and read what is posted...

I said he didn't "have" to cobble the shows together based on market pressure, internal pressure was not touched on ~ deliberately!

It is just your opinion that a Robotech "umbrella" show would be better served to bring over other anime mecha shows. Its not a fact. Here's a fact: Robotech WAS successful as it was conceptualized and made HG a lot of money.

Not as much as you'd like to believe... In most markets it didn't run very long. In my market it ran one and a half times before it was pulled. Granted some markets probably did run it for 3 years and that likely included South America and parts of China after the initial release.

As for my opinion, the "fact" is that HG could have capitalized on bringing over more anime shows under an RT umbrella (something I do attribute a certain amount of forward thinking they did have with licensing Macross, Mospead and Southern Cross), something no one else was doing at the time. Thus bringing fresh new content to their market regularly and contributing to the establishment of anime in pop culture. Essentially they could have been the catalyst of this movement, but chose not to. They chose to dumb down the content of the shows, instead of giving their audience enough credit as distributors do now.

I've seen the pilot episode Macek did for SDFM and eventhough it wasn't completely true to the original it was much better than what RT turned it into. Thus the ability was there to market an anime show as it was, just not the will.

They walked away from a cash cow and their lack of imagination in business is still evident today.

The Robotech show was also not "mothballed" in the 90's. It went off the air in 1988 and continued in video tape releases well into the 90's. It also had a run on SciFi Channel and Cartoon Network.

Video tape releases do not mean success. Many anime programs were released on video (particularly OVAs and Movies) in the 90's not just RT.

Essentially the franchise was mothballed until about 1999 when they began agressively marketing the show again. The "reason" HG gives for not defending their alleged copyright when Mac Plus came out (they had none) in 1995 was that the franchise was shelved and they simply didn't notice the release. Considering how the talking heads at HG change their story on a monthly basis, I'm sure the excuse has now changed for their fanbase who will gladly eat it up like gospel...

If you're going to wax stupid about something you don't like, at least get your facts straight.

AAAAND...Fanboy-CONFIRMED!

Edited February 3, 2009 by Zinjo

[Dynaman]

Well, if it helps any - Misa didn't give Hikaru a second look for a long, long looong time. I'm interested, however, in your wife being "a lot like Misa"

My wife doesn't look anything like her, but shares many of her mental traits. Brusque at work, shy and retiring away from work, a stickler for doing things by the book...

As to your ex who called you just before your wedding - well - I (sadly) never had any Minmeys in my life. My ex-girlfriend was a psychotic lunatic that I regret ever meeting. Happily, we were only together for a year, half of which we didn't even see each other.

It would be nice to have someone like Minmey in my life.

Well - I respect your interpretation of this - and this really is a matter of personal interpretation I think, because we're talking about something fairly nuanced here...

But I don't fully agree that the "chauvinism" in Macross is a sign of its' "backwards" times. The show was very conscious of the problems ailing human nature.

I may not have come off correctly, going on the Animeigo release it seems they are handling it well. My only idea in raising the point is that from my own experience EVERY show from that time (US, Europe, Japan) seemed to be handling it in too heavy handed a fashion. The whole thing can be a real pain for a translator, because if it is done wrong the dialog is stilted (a DYRL translation is a good example, when Hikaru ignores Misa's order and flies into the ship in the first battle Misa gave some line about why he doesn't follow her orders because she is a woman, a different version had her say something more along the lines of "How dare he disobey my orders!". For all I know the first version is the more exact translation, but it is not the way an english speaker would say the line. "Male Chauvinist!" might even be a good way to say it too. (and as a tacked on bit, I have no idea what things were like in Japan at this time)

Well, I tend to ramble and I see I'm starting to do so here, and taking things off topic...

My last 3 disc Macross set arrived yesterday, so I'll be plowing through the remainder of the series in the next few days (once I plop in a DVD I pretty much watch all four episodes straight through). Even though I've seen the show before, these characters grabbed my attention, I don't know if it was a happy accident or a plan that made them come to life the way they do, but I'm happy for it.

[VFTF1]

hen Hikaru ignores Misa's order and flies into the ship in the first battle Misa gave some line about why he doesn't follow her orders because she is a woman, a different version had her say something more along the lines of "How dare he disobey my orders!". For all I know the first version is the more exact translation, but it is not the way an english speaker would say the line. "Male Chauvinist!" might even be a good way to say it too. (and as a tacked on bit, I have no idea what things were like in Japan at this time

Ahhh...so that's where the "chauvinist" line supposedly comes from.

The version of DYRL that I watched was subbed by Macrossworld's Hurin (who was elevated to God in my book when I saw the credits for that version as having him in it) and there wasn't any "chauvinist" - it was just "how dare he disobey my orders?!"

On that note - I never got the feeling Hikaru was disobeying her because she was a woman - he was disobeying her ordes for the same reason he disobeyed in SDFM TV when Kakizake's Valkyrie was damaged and he ordered a retreat: because he felt that saving lives was his job and some REMF bridge officer without a clue wasn't going to prevent him from doing that. In other words - he would have disobeyed even if it was a man giving the order.

Just to prove this point: notice that when he got caught in the VT with Minmey in DYRL, he wasn't all like "I'm a macho man! Yo go back to cooking! I'm not landing" - he apologized and obeyed - why? - because in general he IS obedient - especially when he's in the wrong. He just refuses to obey when he knows that the order is wrong.

But also - remember that in SDFM TV in the later episodes when Misa left the Macross for Alaska Base, Hikaru flew escort and told her that her work had saved everyone's lives countless times.

So - he didn't only love her as a woman. He also respected and acknowledged her competence as an officer. He just didn't like the idea of women being exposed to danger, which is very gentlemanly and chivalrous and great

Pete

[Dynaman]

The version of DYRL that I watched was subbed by Macrossworld's Hurin (who was elevated to God in my book when I saw the credits for that version as having him in it) and there wasn't any "chauvinist" - it was just "how dare he disobey my orders?!"

I think the version I currently have is that one, sounds like the exact quote. I'd love to get the exact translation of the line, the one I had before just seems too, ungainly, to have been mistakenly done that way - but the translator may have gotten hung up on the Japanese way of phrasing things - I also think that particular version got translated into Chinese first and then to English...

[Totoro242]

I smell a fanboy rant coming on....

AAAAND...Fanboy-CONFIRMED!

Hmmmmm... not sure how to take this coming from a guy with over 3,000 posts on an anime web forum, a sig with a reference to John Woo, and arguing his opinions regarding story changes made 23 years ago.

I guess its ironic and therefore humorous

Before getting your back up, be sure and read what is posted...

I said he didn't "have" to cobble the shows together based on market pressure, internal pressure was not touched on ~ deliberately!

Its easy to see what you were really saying. By trying to "skate" around the topic, you were still able to get your point across; somehow the blame still falls on Carl Macek's shoulders. This is what I responded to. It does not.

He was hired to do a job, that job apparently changed, he still did the job. I suppose you would say in hindsight that he should should have quit after investing all that time producing the VHS release because his boss changed the direction? That would be silly.

Not as much as you'd like to believe... In most markets it didn't run very long. In my market it ran one and a half times before it was pulled. Granted some markets probably did run it for 3 years and that likely included South America and parts of China after the initial release.

From what I've heard, HG paid "a song" for the Macross rights, spent 5 months producing the show on a tight budget, during which time they found a major toy sponsor, 2 dozen licensees, and made millions. Sounds pretty successful to me.

As for my opinion, the "fact" is that HG could have capitalized on bringing over more anime shows under an RT umbrella (something I do attribute a certain amount of forward thinking they did have with licensing Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross), something no one else was doing at the time. Thus bringing fresh new content to their market regularly and contributing to the establishment of anime in pop culture. Essentially they could have been the catalyst of this movement, but chose not to. They chose to dumb down the content of the shows, instead of giving their audience enough credit as distributors do now.

In your opinion. Thats better...

As far it being "fact" that they could have tried the "umbrella" approach, up to that point, the only example I know of where anime shows were combined similarly is Force Five. I would hardly call that the same level of success that Robotech was. If the idea did come up for the "umbrella" approach, I'm sure anyone in the industry would have brought up this show and shot the idea down. It didnt work on the level Robotech did.

Robotech's success must also be measured by the myriad of follow-up licenses such as the RPG's, comics, and novels. All of which continued far longer after the show aired and well into the 90's. Robotech kept growing and kept generating more revenue for HG.

I've seen the pilot episode Macek did for SDFM and eventhough it wasn't completely true to the original it was much better than what RT turned it into. Thus the ability was there to market an anime show as it was, just not the will.

They walked away from a cash cow and their lack of imagination in business is still evident today.

Again, your opinion. For what they paid for it, put into it, and what they reap still today; I beg to difer.

Video tape releases do not mean success. Many anime programs were released on video (particularly OVAs and Movies) in the 90's not just RT.

And I'd hardly call that "mothballed". I guess your definition of "mothballed" is different from mine? You also did not address the run on Sci Fi and Cartoon Network.

Essentially the franchise was mothballed until about 1999 when they began agressively marketing the show again. The "reason" HG gives for not defending their alleged copyright when Mac Plus came out (they had none) in 1995 was that the franchise was shelved and they simply didn't notice the release. Considering how the talking heads at HG change their story on a monthly basis, I'm sure the excuse has now changed for their fanbase who will gladly eat it up like gospel...

This is probably the only thing I will agree with you on. The usually stated is that "someone was asleep at the wheel" at HG. Really meaning that the management at the time had no idea of what rights they had claim to. Now the current management has decided to excersice those rights. And, like it or not, they apparently have the law on their side.

[Gubaba]

I think the version I currently have is that one, sounds like the exact quote. I'd love to get the exact translation of the line, the one I had before just seems too, ungainly, to have been mistakenly done that way - but the translator may have gotten hung up on the Japanese way of phrasing things - I also think that particular version got translated into Chinese first and then to English...

I went over the subs Hurin found, correcting little mistakes (like Millia being given English dialogue during her fight with Max, when in reality, she's speaking unsubtitled Zentradi, and the COMPLETELY screwed up final line of the movie: "Just a normal...love song," which those subs had as "Of course! It's a love song!"), and I found Misa's line to be one of the most dificult to render into English. More or less, what she says is, "A man or a woman, which one do you think is in charge here?"

As far as I can tell, there is NO WAY to present this line as-is and make it sound natural in English. That said, I think it's possibly THE most important line of dialogue in the first section of the film, because, as it turns out, the ENTIRE MOVIE is about a battle of the sexes on a grand scale, and how the power of a "love song" (standing in for love itself) can bridge the gap and bring them together. It's an early foreshadowing of the theme of the film, as well as setting up Hikaru and Misa as zstand-ins for the Zentradi and the Meltrandi. The relationship between the two main characters is like the entire war in miniature. (I told you all I was a lit major, right?)

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of this line or the themes of DYRL (cf. the "Fokker/Focker" debacle in the Mecha Thread), but hey...someone asked, so I figured I'd answer.

[Dynaman]

I went over the subs Hurin found, correcting little mistakes (like Millia being given English dialogue during her fight with Max, when in reality, she's speaking unsubtitled Zentradi, and the COMPLETELY screwed up final line of the movie: "Just a normal...love song," which those subs had as "Of course! It's a love song!"), and I found Misa's line to be one of the most dificult to render into English. More or less, what she says is, "A man or a woman, which one do you think is in charge here?"

That's what I thought, it's just one of those things that does not translate directly into english all that well. In order to make it sound like something natural it has to lose some part of it's meaning (or be turned into more then one sentence, which is not really an option).

Thanks for the information!

Edited February 4, 2009 by Dynaman

[VFTF1]

and I found Misa's line to be one of the most dificult to render into English. More or less, what she says is, "A man or a woman, which one do you think is in charge here?"

I wish that line had been used in the dub! It's sooo much better than "How dare you disobey my orders" precisely because of the allusions to the entire theme of DYRL? and the fact that it's laden with irony and Misa looks wonderfully sexy when she gets bad and tries to be a-sexually bossy

Pete

[Bri]

Robotech is bad, the dialogue is crap, I dare say the dialogue is sub thundercats, it's that freakikn' bad. And really, how anyone can favor mr exposition over Claudia's gentle narration I'll never understand, nor would I ever want to.

True, it's a shame the ADV dub, while having superior dialogue, has such horrible voice acting. Even Mari Ijima can't save the collective failure ofthe other VA's. Potential Robotech converts might end up going back if they listen to the dub instead of the sub (another reason for subs over dubs).

[Nexx Stalker]

True, it's a shame the ADV dub, while having superior dialogue, has such horrible voice acting. Even Mari Ijima can't save the collective failure ofthe other VA's. Potential Robotech converts might end up going back if they listen to the dub instead of the sub (another reason for subs over dubs).

Maybe this is true for American dubs. Fortunately, in Italy we have a long tradition of high-quality dubbing actors that make dubbed animes and cartoons much more enjoyable than subtitled ones. Macross (we were the first country in the world to have it dubbed) is one such example. I've listened to the ADV dub and, unfortunately, I have to agree with you. It's a huge step back from Robotech.

[SchizophrenicMC]

True, it's a shame the ADV dub, while having superior dialogue, has such horrible voice acting. Even Mari Ijima can't save the collective failure ofthe other VA's. Potential Robotech converts might end up going back if they listen to the dub instead of the sub (another reason for subs over dubs).

Even RT had better VAs... I can only kinda see Vic M as Hikaru, and I can never put Mari Ijima's accent with Minmay. Doesn't work for me.

On that note, the only good dub of Minmay I've ever heard was Cristina Vee's in Hikuro's Dub of DYRL?

ADV, YOU SUCK!

[Gubaba]

I can never put Mari Ijima's accent with Minmay.

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

[sketchley]

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

Me too!

[Killer Robot]

No need to make silly faces, a lot of people have said the same thing. In the original version of Macross, Mari Iijima was a native Japanese speaker among a cast of native Japanese speakers. In the ADV dub, she's the one person with a distinct accent among a bunch of native English voices: it makes her stand out and not for a good reason. If they'd tried to mimic the multicultural aspect of the Macross crew and passengers by giving others appropriate accents for example (admittedly, not easy to do well) it might have worked better.

Don't get me wrong: it was a really cool thing to get the original voice for an iconic character to do the dub. It's even better for a role so strongly tied to its songs. It's just that however much I appreciate this as a Macross fan, when it comes to actually watching and listening to the show it's somewhat odd too.

[Gubaba]

No need to make silly faces, a lot of people have said the same thing. In the original version of Macross, Mari Iijima was a native Japanese speaker among a cast of native Japanese speakers. In the ADV dub, she's the one person with a distinct accent among a bunch of native English voices: it makes her stand out and not for a good reason. If they'd tried to mimic the multicultural aspect of the Macross crew and passengers by giving others appropriate accents for example (admittedly, not easy to do well) it might have worked better.

Don't get me wrong: it was a really cool thing to get the original voice for an iconic character to do the dub. It's even better for a role so strongly tied to its songs. It's just that however much I appreciate this as a Macross fan, when it comes to actually watching and listening to the show it's somewhat odd too.

Okay, I admit it...although I have the first couple ADV volumes, I've only watched the dub of the first episode, and I tend to forget it exists.

So when someone says the Robotech VAs are better than the Macross VAs, I'm thinking of the original cast.

Still, if someone says (as someone has) that Reba West is a better Minmay than Mari Iijima, well, I don't care WHAT language Mari is speaking, that's just plain wrong.

Also...I've spoken with Mari on quite a few occasions over the years, and her accent really isn't very strong. Certainly no stronger than, say, Ken Watanabe's, for example.

[Keith]

Okay, I admit it...although I have the first couple ADV volumes, I've only watched the dub of the first episode, and I tend to forget it exists.

So when someone says the Robotech VAs are better than the Macross VAs, I'm thinking of the original cast.

Still, if someone says (as someone has) that Reba West is a better Minmay than Mari Iijima, well, I don't care WHAT language Mari is speaking, that's just plain wrong.

Also...I've spoken with Mari on quite a few occasions over the years, and her accent really isn't very strong. Certainly no stronger than, say, Ken Watanabe's, for example.

Mari actually sounds a lot like she did in the original recording, definately older, but the performance is similar. And hell, she's the only one who can pronunce any of the names correctly in the whole dub. With that said, what little I've watched of the Macross dub, it's bad, but not nearly as ham fisted as the original robotech dub.

[Zor Primus]

One observation as I saw the the last ep tonight...I kinda like how Rick and Lisa declared themselves in love after the SDF-1 got destroyed in RT more then a the general idea you get with Hikaru and Misa. On the flip side Global and the rest of the bridge crew weren't annouced dead either

Minmay turns out to be selfish in both versions though!

[Gubaba]

One observation as I saw the the last ep tonight...I kinda like how Rick and Lisa declared themselves in love after the SDF-1 got destroyed in RT more then a the general idea you get with Hikaru and Misa. On the flip side Global and the rest of the bridge crew weren't annouced dead either

That's because they're NOT dead in Macross...Shammy ends up getting married and having eleven kids, Vanessa gets married to Rori and has a generally hard life, and Kim retires to Eden (and stays single).

I don't know about Claudia and Global, though.

[dreamweaver13]

I don't know about Claudia and Global, though.

Wh-what?? They were an item? All this time....

I still count the "death" of the bridge crew as one of the biggest mindfracks committed by RT.

That's because they're NOT dead in Macross...Shammy ends up getting married and having eleven kids, Vanessa gets married to Rori and has a generally hard life, and Kim retires to Eden (and stays single).

It's really sad that Vanessa wasn't given a "happily ever after" ending. makes you think how much she's kicking herself now for not taking up Hikaru's offer for a date. commanding-officer-walking-out be damned.

Edited February 6, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[eugimon]

Wh-what?? They were an item? All this time....

yup, that's one of the biggest robotech re-writes.

[Gubaba]

Wh-what?? They were an item? All this time....

Well, if you've heard the interview with Ishiguro that was one of the easter eggs on the AnimEigo DVDs, you know that there was a "thing" between Misa and Global...so, Roy'ds dead, Misa gets married, Global and Claudia are both on the rebound...things happen, you know...

I still count the "death" of the bridge crew as one of the biggest mindfracks committed by RT.

Heh. My first ever thread on Macrossworld, back on the old boards, was posted right after I watched the AnimEigo DVDs for the first time in 2000, asking if the brdige crew was still alive or not.

Unsurprisingly, it devolved into a flame war with some people saying it was PERFECTLY OBVIOUS that they all survived and other people pointing out that the Macross looked pretty well trashed in the final scenes. After pages and pages of this, I poked my head back in, and got yelled at by someone for even asking the question in the first place.

So I don't know if it was the biggest mindfrack pulled by Robotech, but it was certainly my first mindfrack on MW.

[Einherjar]

I still count the "death" of the bridge crew as one of the biggest mindfracks committed by RT.

Guess the staff no longer had a use for them, but it's still a tragic way to end their roles in the series. I thought a bigger mindfrack was Rick becoming an admiral in the military, which I hope wasn't the reason why they all got killed off. He looked like a guy who would've been content staying a CAG or flyboy for the rest of his life. Lisa would've fit the role better.

[Dynaman]

Well, if you've heard the interview with Ishiguro that was one of the easter eggs on the AnimEigo DVDs, you know that there was a "thing" between Misa and Global...so, Roy'ds dead, Misa gets married, Global and Claudia are both on the rebound...things happen, you know...

How many Easter Eggs are on the DVDs, and how do I get to them? (Just bought the whole series last week) (Never mind, looked up how to find them on the ANimeago Website)

The idea of Misa and Global having a "thing" is kinda creepy, the guy is like her surrogate father...

Edited February 6, 2009 by Dynaman

[Dynaman]

Guess the staff no longer had a use for them, but it's still a tragic way to end their roles in the series. I thought a bigger mindfrack was Rick becoming an admiral in the military, which I hope wasn't the reason why they all got killed off. He looked like a guy who would've been content staying a CAG or flyboy for the rest of his life. Lisa would've fit the role better.

Lisa does end up an Admiral as well, one level of Rank above Rick.

[VFTF1]

that there was a "thing" between Misa and Global...

That was so obvious in the elevator scene at the Grand Cannon...

A very touching scene - and Global is the only other guy who got Misa to loosen up, smile and laugh.

Pete

[Dynaman]

That was so obvious in the elevator scene at the Grand Cannon...

A very touching scene - and Global is the only other guy who got Misa to loosen up, smile and laugh.

Funny enough, After watching each DVD I'm loaning them to a guy at work, He just watched that episode and said the exact same thing.

I guess having watched RT first I got thrown. (this might also explain some of the bridge banter in the first episode, where Misa points out that Claudia and Fokker came in late together) Now I'm dying to get home and listen to the commentaries...

[Hurin]

. . .and the COMPLETELY screwed up final line of the movie: "Just a normal...love song," which those subs had as "Of course! It's a love song!"

If you're going to claim that something is "COMPLETELY screwed up". . . please do me the courtesy of at least quoting the line correctly.

You misquote the final line in the subtitles (above) as being:

"of course! It's a love song!"

As though Misa is just realizing at the last moment of the movie that the song she translated herself is actually a love song. Which would indeed be idiotic were that really how the subtitle appears.

But the subtitle actually reads:

"Of course it was...a love song."

Which is not an expression of surprise or discovery, but a melancholy (re)statement of an already known fact. . . as one would say: "of course the gasoline caught fire before we could help." The "of course" is another way of saying: "and as we know. . ." In the context of that scene, the "of course" gives it a melancholy feel. Which I think is appropriate.

Now, according to you (and not being a Japanese speaker I have no way of confirming). . . the line should read: "Just a normal...love song."

Honestly, I'm not sure there's even a worthwhile difference between what is there in "my" subtitle and what you think it should be (especially given that the prior two subtitles establish that the sone was "ordinary" where you would have "normal"). I think what is there actually sounds more natural and fits the mood better than the (apparently) literally translated Japanese. But what I do know is that I don't really care for your mischaracterization of what the subtitle actually says and the way you then inflated that false portrayal of it into the "COMPLETE screwing up" of the last line of the movie. That just simply isn't the case.

There is a big difference between: "Of course! It's a love song!" and "Of course it was. . . a love song." Tense, tone, intent, and literal meaning are all very different between those two. So I have no clue how you got the former meaning (complete with made-up exclamation points) from the latter words as they actually appear. It's especially puzzling how that line could be misinterpreted so badly given all the cues provided by Misa's vocal tones and the mood of the scene as a whole. And the fact that the lines are in answer to Claudia's inquiry as to the nature of the song.

Edit: For a better sense of the context and how Misa is clearly not exclaiming in a eureka moment: "Of course! It's a love song!" as the movie fades to black. . . here's the preceding lines for context. This is actually how they appear on the DVD that I subtitled. Each line appears on its own on the screen as Misa speaks, responding to Claudia's question:

Just an ordinary song that was popular...

...in an alien city tens of thousands of years ago.

Of course it was...a love song.

The ellipses (. . .) preceding "a love song" coincide with a pause that Misa takes before saying those words in english. So if that's "COMPLETELY screwed up" to anyone. . . I'll know why I stopped coming here.

H

Edited February 19, 2009 by Hurin

[Gubaba]

If you're going to claim that something is "COMPLETELY screwed up". . . please do me the courtesy of at least quoting the line correctly.

You misquote the final line in the subtitles (above) as being:

"of course! It's a love song!"

As though Misa is just realizing at the last moment of the movie that the song she translated herself is actually a love song. Which would indeed be idiotic were that really how the subtitle appears.

But the subtitle actually reads:

"Of course it was...a love song."

Which is not an expression of surprise or discovery, but a melancholy (re)statement of an already known fact. . . as one would say: "of course the gasoline caught fire before we could help." The "of course" is another way of saying: "and as we know. . ." In the context of that scene, the "of course" gives it a melancholy feel. Which I think is appropriate.

Now, according to you (and not being a Japanese speaker I have no way of confirming). . . the line should read: "Just a normal...love song."

Honestly, I'm not sure there's even a worthwhile difference between what is there in "my" subtitle and what you think it should be (especially given that the prior two subtitles establish that the sone was "ordinary" where you would have "normal"). I think what is there actually sounds more natural and fits the mood better than the (apparently) literally translated Japanese. But what I do know is that I don't really care for your mischaracterization of what the subtitle actually says and the way you then inflated that false portrayal of it into the "COMPLETE screwing up" of the last line of the movie. That just simply isn't the case.

There is a big difference between: "Of course! It's a love song!" and "Of course it was. . . a love song." Tense, tone, intent, and literal meaning are all very different between those two. So I have no clue how you got the former meaning (complete with made-up exclamation points) from the latter words as they actually appear. It's especially puzzling how that line could be misinterpreted so badly given all the cues provided by Misa's vocal tones and the mood of the scene as a whole. And the fact that the lines are in answer to Claudia's inquiry as to the nature of the song.

Edit: For a better sense of the context and how Misa is clearly not exclaiming in a eureka moment: "Of course! It's a love song!" as the movie fades to black. . . here's the preceding lines for context. This is actually how they appear on the DVD that I subtitled. Each line appears on its own on the screen as Misa speaks, responding to Claudia's question:

Just an ordinary song that was popular...

...in an alien city tens of thousands of years ago.

Of course it was...a love song.

The ellipses (. . .) preceding "a love song" coincide with a pause that Misa takes before saying those words in english. So if that's "COMPLETELY screwed up" to anyone. . . I'll know why I stopped coming here.

H

It's been a while since I looked at those subs, to be honest...so I'm sorry I misquoted, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

I wasn't trying to start any arguments over this, and I certainly wasn't trying to drive you away from Macrossworld. If you think the meaning is the same, that's fine.

But yeah, I do think it's screwed up, in that it's a mistranslation of the line.

If you want to know my reasoning, let me know. Otherwise, I'd rather not burden the thread with grammar and linguistics.

[Hurin]

But yeah, I do think it's screwed up, in that it's a mistranslation of the line.

By that standard, I'm pretty sure the entire project is a mistranslation since a literal translation wasn't my goal. My goal was to take what the apparent meaning of the words was (based on a couple fan translations and the fx subs) and rework that into idiomatic, natural-sounding english.

But let's take a look at what you seem to think the line should be:

"

Just

a

normal

...

love song

."

Now, take a look at the subs as they appear. . .

Just

an

ordinary

song that was popular...

...in an alien city tens of thousands of years ago.

Of course it was...a

love song

.

Now, I don't know how you would have "translated" all the intervening language (about thousands of years and alien cities). . . but the meaning that you have said should be conveyed is conveyed. All the words you seem to think are so critical are there. I'm less concerned with "grammar and linguistics" than I am about the needs of the scene, the story, and the mood for an english-speaking audience. And so while you might be able to come up with a word-for-word literal translation that makes you happy, my goal was not to please those who understand Japanese language or culture. . . but to make the scenes, stories, and mood of the movie come across smoothly to the average english-speaking Macross fan. And to that end, those three lines appear to serve their purpose.

In a nutshell, you could almost certainly prove without a doubt via some pedantic, technical translation that the words "of course" are not there in the original Japanese and are technically not necessary. But if those additional english words with no Japanese corollary help to convey the message and/or mood of a scene to non-Japanese people, then. . . well, I don't really care.

Each time I reworded any of the lines I felt sounded stilted or just plain bizarre, I asked myself several questions regarding the changes I made:

"Does the scene sound natural?"

"Does the scene 'work?'"

"Is the apparent tone and mood of the scene respected?"

"Is the content of the scene respected?"

"Have I changed anything arbitrarily?"

To me, those are all more important questions than: Does x mean "ordinary" or "regular" or "normal?"

Though you say that you haven't seen the subtitles in years, I have to assume that you took that (unwarranted) meaning from them when you originally saw them. . . so I'm a bit perplexed how you so misjudged the tone of those lines and somehow got a "eureka-like" exclamation from Misa rather than a melancholy statement on her part. . . and I'm a bit unclear as to whether you still consider it to be "COMPLETELY screwed up" or if you can now at least concede that while it may not be as technically accurate as you would like, it doesn't really mangle the story. Your initial appraisal made it sound like the meaning of the final scene had been horribly distorted by the subtitles. And though you now say that you remembered the subtitles incorrectly, you don't quite retract that appraisal. Yet I would contend that if you feel the meaning of the movie's final scene is ruined by such a minor difference in word order, choice, or grammar, then there's not much to discuss.

To my mind, communication was established in a fashion that native engligh speakers would find readily accessible. That was my goal. A few words out of order or my failure to use the subjunctive, to my mind, doesn't constitute "COMPLETELY screwed up."

At that time I was spending a few hundred man-hours on this project. . . reading the scripts, jotting down the fx subs, rewording, researching, retiming, rewatching, nudging each subtitle, recompiling, reburning, rewatching, taking more notes, nuding the subtitles around, rewording a line that bothers me, etc. . . I posted several threads to these forums asking people's opinion on a few sticky areas and discussing "literal translation" vs "cultural accessibility." At that time, everyone seemed pretty happy with the idea that we'd have some natural-sounding english subtitles even if this or that word might not be perfectly, literally translated.

Finally. . . you didn't "drive me from MW". . . but the years of this very sort of stuff sure gets old after a while. The "internet forum culture" where self-styled experts feel it's just fine to crap all over someone's (very) hard work. . . often disingenuously or from a false premise (to misquote something, fundamentally misunderstand it, and then crap on it based on a faulty quotation/understanding of it), all within the "virtual earshot" of the person who worked hard on it in the first place? That's something that only happens on the internet. And I got tired of that sort of stuff a while back. In short, I'm too old for this sh*t.

I can't really help you if you still think that such a minor difference in wording ruins that final scene. This is the first time anyone has ever had a problem with it. And I think that should probably serve as an indicator that you're hung up on pedantic technicalities of linguistic nuance rather than asking yourself: "Did the scene work?"

H

Edited February 19, 2009 by Hurin

[Gubaba]

Hurin, I apologize. I was under the impression that you found the translation, not that you made it. I must have been wrong about that.

It was not my intention to belittle your work, which as always, is much appreciated.

[VFTF1]

Here Hurin -

If it helps; I only recently noticed that you were behind the subs on DYRL, which I recently (aka a month ago) managed to watch in a better, larger format than Youtube.

Let me put it this way:

I could care squat about minor arcane squibble/quibble points regarding translation - the first and only thing to come to my mind when - at the very beginning - the credits of Hurin/Macrossworld.com flashed before the screen was "AWESOME! HURIN DID THIS?! WOW! HE'S SO COOL!"

Becuase it was cool that I was able to watch and understand this and be moved by it rather than scratch my head thinking "gee - pretty pictures...wonder what they're saying?" or having to go find "Attack of the Bionoids."

So don't feel driven off.

People often forget, when critiquing fan translations, that it's not like the translator is paid, and it's not like we are "customers" who somehow are entitled (because we pay) to gripe and complain and get "customer service."

Ultimately, a fansub with the scope and magnitude of DYRL is a huge gift to those of us who don't speak japanese, and so please do not feel "driven away" ever. It would be utterly stupid if someone who contributed an entire translation of what is basically the seminal work in the Macross fandom felt slighted or driven away by that fandom.

Your work made me happy. Thank you for it.

Pete

[Hurin]

I was under the impression that you found the translation, not that you made it. I must have been wrong about that.

Well, as I've always been up front about, I actually didn't "translate" anything exactly. I depended upon the translation that Ali Sama posted so long ago (that I think he himself found and did not translate himself either). . . another one I found online somewhere. . . and the (horrible) fx DVD subtitles. Actually, all three were pretty terrible. When the subs weren't utter nonsense, they were stilted and jarring to the english-speaker's ear. So even the part's that (barely) made sense still tended to interrupt the viewer's "suspension of disbelief" and make them regularly aware that they were reading (poorly) translated dialog. In other words, watching DYRL and trying to actually appreciate the story felt like work and it was hard to "get into" the story on its merits.

But with those three sources in-hand, I went through the script/subs line-by-line (all three versions) with the goal of consolidating them into something reasonably accurate, and then rewording that "unified script" so that the average english-speaker could watch DYRL and just "get it" without constantly having to figure out what all these bizarre subtitles were trying to say. By the end of it, I really did feel like I had essentially reworded just about every major line of dialog. But I would never claim to have translated anything since I never laid eyes on a single word of Japanese.

I wanted the experience to be as good as watching your average French movie subtitled for American audiences. To that end, I think the project was a success as back when it was originally completed there were several posts from folks stating that they (and perhaps more importantly, their GFs and spouses) could finally sit down and just simply enjoy (and understand) the story as it unfolded with no need to decipher cryptic subtitles.

So anyways. . . guess I'll wander off now. . .

[Hurin]

Here Hurin -

If it helps; I only recently noticed that you were behind the subs on DYRL, which I recently (aka a month ago) managed to watch in a better, larger format than Youtube.

Let me put it this way:

I could care squat about minor arcane squibble/quibble points regarding translation - the first and only thing to come to my mind when - at the very beginning - the credits of Hurin/Macrossworld.com flashed before the screen was "AWESOME! HURIN DID THIS?! WOW! HE'S SO COOL!"

Becuase it was cool that I was able to watch and understand this and be moved by it rather than scratch my head thinking "gee - pretty pictures...wonder what they're saying?" or having to go find "Attack of the Bionoids."

So don't feel driven off.

People often forget, when critiquing fan translations, that it's not like the translator is paid, and it's not like we are "customers" who somehow are entitled (because we pay) to gripe and complain and get "customer service."

Ultimately, a fansub with the scope and magnitude of DYRL is a huge gift to those of us who don't speak japanese, and so please do not feel "driven away" ever. It would be utterly stupid if someone who contributed an entire translation of what is basically the seminal work in the Macross fandom felt slighted or driven away by that fandom.

Your work made me happy. Thank you for it.

Pete

Thanks for the kind words. Sorry that this thread has gotten so hijacked.

I have to ask though: In what format are people finding these subtitles now? The only way I ever disseminated them is via the two links in my signature where people can graft them onto their own DVDs (with no loss in video or audio quality). I never did get around to making a version of them for the remastered Region 2 DYRL re-release. But it sounds like someone did this and put my name on them? I actually never put any mention of myself or MW on the ones I created. Actually, the only thing that ever came close to a credits listing on mine was the "100% Pure Macross - Accept No Substitutes" banner that I had play just before the main menu. So if there is a DVD out there floating around with the subtitles I worked up and credited to me. . . that's news to me. I had heard brief asides about something being out there, but never looked into it.

And I haven't been nor will I be "driven off" by this or any other thread in particular. I just got older. I changed. MW changed. I didn't feel like being on staff anymore, and I just didn't find it as enjoyable to spend so much time here. Ya know. . . seven years is a long time.