Macross Believer!

[Dynaman]

Well, it is incredibly stupid, and at the bottom of the show's mythos. I mean, come on! A rock band piloting transforming giant robots with guitar like controls is bad enough, but then, its only weapon is to shoot speakers at the enemy and sing them into submission. Except they don't scream "Yakk Deculture!"

I gave the show a break for that - although I didn't like the idea it's not what ruined it. What ruined it for me was that not much actually happened, unlike SDFM the characters we had at the start of the show were pretty much the exact same as the end, I could watch regular TV for that kind of character development.

As for the Robotech announcer - if they could get rid of him and a certain singing voice it would have been much better, two of the main reasons the RT novels are so much better.

On a seperate note, I've just watched up to episode 8 with the Animeigo subtitled episodes, and it was great to go back and see the character development that takes place right from the start. It had been awhile and I had it in my head that the first few episodes were more about setting up the plot then the characters, I'm looking forward to going through the whole series again.

[Gubaba]

I, personally, like that announcer better than the uber-annoying one in Macross. If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right.

I really want the Robotech narrator to shut up occasionally and quit treating me like an unobservant buffoon. "In front of earth, millions of Zentraedi warships are defolding..." "Yes, Mr. Incessant Narrator, I can see that. Now stop talking! I'm trying to watch the show, here!"

As least Claudia/Narrator in Macross talks to me like I have a brain.

lolwut? Your friends are idiots if they think that!

Erm, you DO know that Macross started life as a parody of Yamato (among other things), don't you? There are quite a few similarities in both story and design.

Well, it is incredibly stupid, and at the bottom of the show's mythos. I mean, come on! A rock band piloting transforming giant robots with guitar like controls is bad enough, but then, its only weapon is to shoot speakers at the enemy and sing them into submission. Except they don't scream "Yakk Deculture!"

Yes, it's ridiculous. It's also a hell of a lot of fun!

BOMBAA!!

[VFTF1]

You kinda have to slowly open the window a crack to equalize pressure before you can open the door, and if you don't, you'll regret it as the door doesn't open and you're sinking into the lake, cursing A) your own stupidity and B) The poor construction of the bridge you were on a few seconds ago.

Wait...

How did you go from "a door" and "a window" to a lake and a bridge? This analogy makes no sense in and of its' self - let alone as reference to what you're talking about.

I think this notion of "incremental" change and "baby steps" is just wishy-washy and doesn't take into account that change only comes about with a sledge hammer and not "baby steps." I'm a revolutionary at heart, and I just don't see incremental steps as having any beneficial aspect to them.

Heck - even Gubaba admits that some of the love of anime that came after Robotech was a REACTION (aka against) Robotech - it was a yearning to be totally free of the patronizing attempts at "westernizing" the story.

If you think about it - nobody tried to "westernize" Dostoyevski or Kafka. Sure, there are often attempts to make great books and plays and movies more "modern" - but these are often CONSCIOUS and generally openly known attempts. Everybody knows about "the original" and that they are watching a "modern take" or something.

What Harmony Gold and Macek did was patronizing to their audience and had just as slim a chance of success as if they'd decided to subtitle the Macross series.

Again: if they had failed after making a full on attempt to just bring over Macross - heroes.

But they raped Macross and then failed - loosers.

As for the analogy -

It doesn't matter if you fall in the lake. Just swim the heck out of it.

Although I don't understand how you'll end up falling in a lake if you don't open the window in order to equalize pressure...on the bridge?

Now see - there's an ENGLISH LANGUAGE analogy and I DON'T GET IT (this comment is made for all those people who argued in the Translation thread that we must take Japanese analogies/sayings and translate them into an english equivalent even if it's not accurate to what is being said)...

Well, it is incredibly stupid, and at the bottom of the show's mythos. I mean, come on! A rock band piloting transforming giant robots with guitar like controls is bad enough, but then, its only weapon is to shoot speakers at the enemy and sing them into submission.

Why is this incredibly stupid?

I think it's incredibly cool.

What's incredible stupid is 99% of cartoons and anime shows in which the hero has a 50 foot robot armed with nuclear bombs and death rays and the only way they know of in terms of confronting ANY problem is to launch their bombs and death rays.

As weak as the M7 movies are (for other reasons) - I can't help but being bowled over every time I consider that scene at the beginning of Dynamite, where Bassara witnesses how the poachers are stealing a Mecha, the police show up - a shoot out begins - and Basara grabs his guitar and stars singing. A police officer points a gun to his back - he turns around and sings.

That's not stupid.

That's brilliant television. Brilliant story telling.

Pete

[SchizophrenicMC]

Wait...

How did you go from "a door" and "a window" to a lake and a bridge? This analogy makes no sense in and of its' self - let alone as reference to what you're talking about.

Idiot crashes his car over a bridge into a lake. You've got to slowly open the window to equalize pressure before you can open the door. If you just don't open the window, the door won't open, and if you open the window too quickly, the water will rush in and drown you.

I think this notion of "incremental" change and "baby steps" is just wishy-washy and doesn't take into account that change only comes about with a sledge hammer and not "baby steps." I'm a revolutionary at heart, and I just don't see incremental steps as having any beneficial aspect to them.

Heck - even Gubaba admits that some of the love of anime that came after Robotech was a REACTION (aka against) Robotech - it was a yearning to be totally free of the patronizing attempts at "westernizing" the story.

If you think about it - nobody tried to "westernize" Dostoyevski or Kafka. Sure, there are often attempts to make great books and plays and movies more "modern" - but these are often CONSCIOUS and generally openly known attempts. Everybody knows about "the original" and that they are watching a "modern take" or something.

What Harmony Gold and Macek did was patronizing to their audience and had just as slim a chance of success as if they'd decided to subtitle the Macross series.

Again: if they had failed after making a full on attempt to just bring over Macross - heroes.

But they raped Macross and then failed - loosers.

As for the analogy -

It doesn't matter if you fall in the lake. Just swim the heck out of it.

Although I don't understand how you'll end up falling in a lake if you don't open the window in order to equalize pressure...on the bridge?

Now see - there's an ENGLISH LANGUAGE analogy and I DON'T GET IT (this comment is made for all those people who argued in the Translation thread that we must take Japanese analogies/sayings and translate them into an english equivalent even if it's not accurate to what is being said)...

Why is this incredibly stupid?

I think it's incredibly cool.

What's incredible stupid is 99% of cartoons and anime shows in which the hero has a 50 foot robot armed with nuclear bombs and death rays and the only way they know of in terms of confronting ANY problem is to launch their bombs and death rays.

As weak as the M7 movies are (for other reasons) - I can't help but being bowled over every time I consider that scene at the beginning of Dynamite, where Bassara witnesses how the poachers are stealing a Mecha, the police show up - a shoot out begins - and Basara grabs his guitar and stars singing. A police officer points a gun to his back - he turns around and sings.

That's not stupid.

That's brilliant television. Brilliant story telling.

Pete

No, it's a drug trip. It lacks any sense of realism, even going so far as a mecha anime can get. Again, piloting a giant robot that transforms into a fighter jet with a guitar and having a gun that shoots speakers that somehow survive impacting the shell of the enemy mech and broadcasting a song through them, which in all honesty shouldn't work because you've just vented the atmosphere and the pilot's in a soundproof suit, anyway to kill them with a song is stupid.

I like the RT announcer's voice. Not the Pokemon dialogue.

RT ain't that damn bad, VFTF1. Watch it. Do like the thread starter. Have an open mind. Macross is better, but RT is still good.

And what's with you and your rape fetish? It wasn't raped! And, TBH, if you've raped something, you've succeeded. You're self-contradictory.

Harumph!,

Schizo

[Einherjar]

About the RT narrator, I did not like getting spoon fed information, especially when they spoil important information to be revealed naturally later. I wouldn't mind if I was still a kid, but it's awkward watching it as an adult. One big offense I remember recently is at the end of ep. 7, Bye-Bye Mars, we're told that Rick is developing feelings towards Lisa way before that actually happens. He's more likely pissed about risking his life saving her butt in a war zone by the end of the episode. Way to be subtle omnipresent voice over guy.

Either the narrator was an early example of a shipper or Macek really hated Minmay from day one.

[SchizophrenicMC]

About the RT narrator, I did not like getting spoon fed information, especially when they spoil important information to be revealed naturally later. I wouldn't mind if I was still a kid, but it's awkward watching it as an adult. One big offense I remember recently is at the end of ep. 7, Bye-Bye Mars, we're told that Rick is developing feelings towards Lisa way before that actually happens. He's more likely pissed about risking his life saving her butt in a war zone by the end of the episode. Way to be subtle omnipresent voice over guy.

Either the narrator was an early example of a shipper or Macek really hated Minmay from day one.

Like I said: Voice, not dialogue

However, I think it's obvious that all of HG hates Minmay. They had a chick named REBA play her, gave her a bitchy persona, and shipped RickXLisa.

On that note: Minmay's a Bitch!

Based on RT Minmay, not SDFM Minmay... It's misspelled. RT Minmay was Minmei, full time whereas SDFM Minmay was Minmei half the time.

[dreamweaver13]

I think this notion of "incremental" change and "baby steps" is just wishy-washy and doesn't take into account that change only comes about with a sledge hammer and not "baby steps." I'm a revolutionary at heart, and I just don't see incremental steps as having any beneficial aspect to them.

Heck - even Gubaba admits that some of the love of anime that came after Robotech was a REACTION (aka against) Robotech - it was a yearning to be totally free of the patronizing attempts at "westernizing" the story.

If you think about it - nobody tried to "westernize" Dostoyevski or Kafka. Sure, there are often attempts to make great books and plays and movies more "modern" - but these are often CONSCIOUS and generally openly known attempts. Everybody knows about "the original" and that they are watching a "modern take" or something.

What Harmony Gold and Macek did was patronizing to their audience and had just as slim a chance of success as if they'd decided to subtitle the Macross series.

Again: if they had failed after making a full on attempt to just bring over Macross - heroes.

But they raped Macross and then failed - loosers.

It's a slippery slope (just to take it away from the windows, lake and the bridge ). I hate the patronizing attitude that came with "adjusting" a storyline just so a specific community can appreciate it. relatively, i'm a purist, so i sincerely believe in showing an artform/creation as it is, and letting the target community see it as it was originally intended. That is the true essence of "sharing culture". But then again, I also appreciate the nuances of financial viability and marketing. What good is a "pure and unadulterated" product if no one is there to see it?

I cannot begin to imagine what it would have been like if Macek/HG insisted on showing Macross as it is (albeit dubbed), and what effect it would have had. for all we know, that early, anime could have REALLY broken through. the Macross product itself may have been good enough to shift perceptions. and the acceptance of anime in western culture could have happened way back in the 1980s, as it did (arguably) in the late 90s/2000s.

But then again, it might not have. it might have failed miserably, and only 1/4 of us would be in this Forum right now, discussing this obscure anime mecha series that was a hit in Japan but didn't really fly with the rest of the world.

Sometimes, revolution is indeed baby steps. But sometimes, it just takes one big fracking sledgeghammer. like GITS. like Evangelion. I can understand what Pete is saying in the sense that I have this nagging regret: what IF Macross could have been that Sledgehammer that would have TRULY opened the floodgates, instead of a mere rockhammer that started digging that long tunnel out of Shawshank? What if Macek/HG didn't succumb (assuming they put up any fight at all, in the first place) to the standard of the times, and refused to take the easy way out?

I'm not denying Macek/HG's place in history. I'm just saying that in a world where they had more balls, their place in history could have been much MUCH bigger, and undisputed.

[VFTF1]

Idiot crashes his car over a bridge into a lake. You've got to slowly open the window to equalize pressure before you can open the door. If you just don't open the window, the door won't open, and if you open the window too quickly, the water will rush in and drown you.

So, you're saying that the way Macek brought Macross over to the USA was the same as the way an idiot crashed his car over a bridge into a lake - and you are praising Macek/the idiot for making Robotech/equalizing pressure INSTEAD of blaming him for Robotech/driving his car over a bridge into a lake?

by the way - they both drowned anyways

No, it's a drug trip. It lacks any sense of realism, even going so far as a mecha anime can get. Again, piloting a giant robot that transforms into a fighter jet with a guitar and having a gun that shoots speakers that somehow survive impacting the shell of the enemy mech and broadcasting a song through them, which in all honesty shouldn't work because you've just vented the atmosphere and the pilot's in a soundproof suit, anyway to kill them with a song is stupid.

How does the basic plot of Macross 7 (music defeating violence) lack realism? The idea of music, art and culture as counter-measures for barbarism are as old as civilization itself. The idea that peaceful, non-violent activities - including music - can change hearts and minds and bring about vast transformative changes in society are also not new, and there are many instances where it has been shown to have had a real impact on politics and society.

For example - in Poland, there was almost a revolution against the communist government after a theatre performance roused people's emotions against the government - just to give one example. So - Macross 7's basic plot is very realistic.

As for the idea of the speaker pod shell "venting the atmosphere" - no - it doesn't. The animation VERY CLEARLY shows that upon entering the enemy craft, the pod immediately releases a kind of "bubble" material that secures whatever severence to the hull it might have made - so if pressure/atmosphere is lost - it is only for a fraction of a second at best.

RT ain't that damn bad, VFTF1. Watch it. Do like the thread starter. Have an open mind.

I agree. Robotech ain't that damn bad - it is just plain aweful. I've seen a few of the Robotech episodes on Youtube and cringed. I've also seen all of Shadow Chronicles. I was very satisfied at the end when Janice reminded everyone of one of the primary reasons Robotech sucks: "Fight la la la destiny is what you make it...la la la...grab the day just take it...la la la...we will win! la la la" (yeah, I'm paraphrasing - but you get the drift).

And what's with you and your rape fetish? It wasn't raped! And, TBH, if you've raped something, you've succeeded. You're self-contradictory.

Yes - if you rape something/someone - then you've succeeded. But succeeded in what? In VIOLATING something/someone. So, the analogy - unlike door/car/window/lake - actually makes sense, and is not contradictory. Macek raped Macross - aka - he succeeded in violating it

Pete (no longer PMS'ing )

ps: This post is on topic because Schyz and me are also discussing whether or not M7 is stupid/realistic/unrealistic/smart

[Keith]

Robotech is bad, the dialogue is crap, I dare say the dialogue is sub thundercats, it's that freakikn' bad. And really, how anyone can favor mr exposition over Claudia's gentle narration I'll never understand, nor would I ever want to.

[anime52k8]

How does the basic plot of Macross 7 (music defeating violence) lack realism? The idea of music, art and culture as counter-measures for barbarism are as old as civilization itself. The idea that peaceful, non-violent activities - including music - can change hearts and minds and bring about vast transformative changes in society are also not new, and there are many instances where it has been shown to have had a real impact on politics and society.

For example - in Poland, there was almost a revolution against the communist government after a theatre performance roused people's emotions against the government - just to give one example. So - Macross 7's basic plot is very realistic.

no, no it's not. the plot of Mac7 is by far the most ridiculous. the overall message (i.e. that art and culture can inspire positive social change and action; and that differences can be solved through peaceful means) is a valid concept, whether or not you agree with it is a different matter. but those ideas aren't the plot, the plot of Mac7 is basically "J-pop front-man/mecha pilot flies his Guitar controlled super robot into the middle of a combat zone so he can defeat super aliens that feed on people's spiritual energy by using the power of how hard he rocks out."

If that sounds good to you thats fine, but that is NOT a realistic plot.

personally I Just can't get into mac7 for a number of reasons: first off I have a hard time getting into that kind of story. music and the power of song/culture/love in a space military epic is cool, but leave the singing to the singers and the mech fights to the pilots. beyond that though, I found the mech designs at the time unappealing (bright colored mechs with faces = little to super robot for me) and the actual animation of the show was lacking. the animation was consistent, but it was average, and the action scenes were lacking in action.

also I dislike Basra and everyone else just weren't interesting to me.

What's incredible stupid is 99% of cartoons and anime shows in which the hero has a 50 foot robot armed with nuclear bombs and death rays and the only way they know of in terms of confronting ANY problem is to launch their bombs and death rays.

that's not stupid, that's being pragmatic. this isn't some fun-time kiddy happy hour where we all sit around and talk about our feelings, this is war. there's no negotiating or reasoning with each other, the enemy is dead set on wiping every last human out and there not going to stop until either we're all dead or they are. So you can either lay down and die or you can fight with bombs and guns and sharp sticks. NOW COME ON YOU APES! YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER?!?

maybe I should put this copy of starship troopers away now.

[VFTF1]

I found the mech designs at the time unappealing (bright colored mechs with faces = little to super robot for me) and the actual animation of the show was lacking. the animation was consistent, but it was average, and the action scenes were lacking in action

This much I'll agree with you on. I think in general that the concept behind Macross 7 was great. The execution had lots of problems - the bad animation you mentioned, and the Valk design (it's not so much the bright colors that bother me as their unimaginative use. Just "you're red and you're pink and you're green"... custom Valks used by rock musicians would be a bit more inspired in their deco)... Also - the pacing is bad - things drag out too much...the opening episodes are monotonous etc etce etc.

I think I would not be so radical in my defense of M7 if people just mainly complained about how badly executed it was - but I can't agree that the concept is stupid, or that Bassara is a bad character because you - or everybody else - doesn't like him.

Not all main characters are meant to be likable - sometimes it's worthwhile to have a main character who nobody likes.

NOW COME ON YOU APES! YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER?!?

Yeah - Starship troopers was cool. But notice that they NEVER tried singing in Starship troopers.

Why?

Because Human society in Starship troopers is totally fascist and - really - there's no reason to prefer the humans (as they are) to the goopy alien bug creatures. Both species are regimented, unthinkingly dedicated to violence, and war-like. On Earth, culture - if it's not tabloid/trash culture - is no where to be seen in Starship troopers. As for the bugs - we don't know if they produce any either.

Macross does not deny that human nature is violent and prone to warfare. It does however deny that human beings are meant for this kind of life - and it does everything possible to culture humans just as much as it cultures Zendradi or other aliens.

Finally - leaving the singing to the singers and the fighting to the pilots sets up a paradigm that someone like Bassara is out to smash: He wants to radicalize what Minmey did. Not just a psychological attack that stalls people so you can blow them up - but - as he says -"a sound that is more powerful than missiles" - something that will literally just make everyone throw down their weapons and love eachother.

Again - I don't see this plot as unrealistic. Badly executed with poor animation and often poor directing - yes. Bad plot? No.

Pete

[edwin3060]

....where Bassara witnesses how the poachers are stealing a Mecha, the police show up - a shoot out begins - and Basara grabs his guitar and stars singing. A police officer points a gun to his back - he turns around and sings...

*cough*hippie*cough*

[Zinjo]

Few actually. Other than booby trapping gunships.

The Supervision Army according to Macross 7 mythos are the brainwashed forces of the Protodevlin comprised of both Zentradi and Protoculture.

That is why the ASS-1 or Macross can accomodate both.

The order not to harm Protoculture was taken off because of the situation of having Protoculture in SA forces.

In the first episode the Varauta forces' , the new Protodevlin minions, VFs seemed familliar to Exsedol but he dimissed it because they were the wrong size accomodating human sized pilots.

From this we can infer the Supervision Army uses a similar paint job and its fighters are giants like Zentradi.

Other than that we don't know what generally happened to them after the defeat of the Protodevlin.

We're they released from mind control or not? There are still fleets of SA out there fighting Zentradi. Which explains the records of Quamzin, Millia and Chlore.

Red sums it up pretty well.

We don't know what the current strength or status of the SA is. Judging by the fact that humanity hasn't run accross them in the 50 years its been travelling the galaxy implies that their forces are not as extensive as the Zentreadi. Some like to "assume" this means they are wiped out, but that is not officially supported in any official publication (yet-anyway).

The biggest question for me is "What is their current state of mind?" If one assumes the mind control of the PD (not brain washing as some have stated) can be broken through anima spiritia song, then why didn't the PC employ their Anima Spiritia forces to free the SA armies of their mind control?

If they did, then the next questions are: "Did it work?" and "If it worked, then why are they still fighting?"

My belief (with respect to the second question) is that the SA may essentially be fighting for their lives against a superior rogue force with no way to order them to stand down (the PC took the inhibitor, to not attack micrones, away from their giants to beat the PD and then were able to reinstitute it on only a fraction of their total Zentreadi forces).

If the reawakening of the SA was a success, it may well have contributed to the ultimate demise of the PC civilization. The PC worlds would have aided the SA forces as actual repatriated allies and this would have been seen by the rogue Zentreadi as an act of treason. Thus, if they defeated the SA forces they'd also wipe out the world that came to their enemy's aid.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

For example - in Poland, there was almost a revolution against the communist government after a theatre performance roused people's emotions against the government - just to give one example. So - Macross 7's basic plot is very realistic.

I don't think this example really fits your argument. It wasn't the play that "created" the anti-government sentiment, only motivated the people to act on existing dis-satisfaction.

M7 portrays the music as having the affect of creating the change, which is stretching reality IMO. There has to be an initial desire for the change to begin with.

The music breaking the mind control is less of a stretch compared to changing hearts and minds. Sivil is the best example in the series of music finishing a change that started internally beforehand.

As for show execution, I have to agree that the execution was poor. Bandai gave them a budget for 2 seasons and Kawamori wrote outlines for 1 season! "Crap! How do we stretch this out?"

As I've said before, if the show were condensed down to one season, I probably would have enjoyed it far more...

Edited February 2, 2009 by Zinjo

[SchizophrenicMC]

So, you're saying that the way Macek brought Macross over to the USA was the same as the way an idiot crashed his car over a bridge into a lake - and you are praising Macek/the idiot for making Robotech/equalizing pressure INSTEAD of blaming him for Robotech/driving his car over a bridge into a lake?

by the way - they both drowned anyways

Ok, I'm starting to dislike you more and more, pete...

How does the basic plot of Macross 7 (music defeating violence) lack realism? The idea of music, art and culture as counter-measures for barbarism are as old as civilization itself. The idea that peaceful, non-violent activities - including music - can change hearts and minds and bring about vast transformative changes in society are also not new, and there are many instances where it has been shown to have had a real impact on politics and society.

It's not the concept that makes it stupid, but the details.

For example - in Poland, there was almost a revolution against the communist government after a theatre performance roused people's emotions against the government - just to give one example. So - Macross 7's basic plot is very realistic.

As for the idea of the speaker pod shell "venting the atmosphere" - no - it doesn't. The animation VERY CLEARLY shows that upon entering the enemy craft, the pod immediately releases a kind of "bubble" material that secures whatever severence to the hull it might have made - so if pressure/atmosphere is lost - it is only for a fraction of a second at best.

Um.. "wearing a sound proof suit, anyway" means nothing?

I agree. Robotech ain't that damn bad - it is just plain aweful. I've seen a few of the Robotech episodes on Youtube and cringed. I've also seen all of Shadow Chronicles. I was very satisfied at the end when Janice reminded everyone of one of the primary reasons Robotech sucks: "Fight la la la destiny is what you make it...la la la...grab the day just take it...la la la...we will win! la la la" (yeah, I'm paraphrasing - but you get the drift).

OK, THAT'S IT. You've never watched it, Petey-boy. You can't say whether or not it's bad. You don't get the right to knock something until you've tried it, and with an anime, that means the whole, damn series.

Yes - if you rape something/someone - then you've succeeded. But succeeded in what? In VIOLATING something/someone. So, the analogy - unlike door/car/window/lake - actually makes sense, and is not contradictory. Macek raped Macross - aka - he succeeded in violating it

Pete (no longer PMS'ing )

ps: This post is on topic because Schyz and me are also discussing whether or not M7 is stupid/realistic/unrealistic/smart

You yourself said he failed at violating it, then. What's so contradictory about my analogy?

Robotech is bad, the dialogue is crap, I dare say the dialogue is sub thundercats, it's that freakikn' bad. And really, how anyone can favor mr exposition over Claudia's gentle narration I'll never understand, nor would I ever want to.

1: First off, who started this thread to rip Robotech? It's saying that Robotech is OK, and Macross is Win. DON'T RIP! There's always someone who likes "X". Ask Mr March.

2: Wow... He just compared it to Thundercats... The dialog, like all of it, is sub-Macross, but that bad.

3: LIKE I SAID: VOICE, NOT DIALOG ON THAT ONE.

Will the involved parties learn to not rip on it on a thread about not ripping on it? Please?

Pete, I've lost a lot of respect for you.

[Mr March]

There's always someone who likes "X". Ask Mr March.

Me? What did I do?

*cue scantily clad women in some arty, overexposed photo shoot*

"Introducing "X", the provocative new fragrance from M. March.

When you want to hit the spot...

*random hot babe suggestively exhales*

...try "X"

Available wherever fine fragrances are sold"

[Zinjo]

Me? What did I do?

*cue scantily clad women in some arty, overexposed photo shoot*

"Introducing "X", the provocative new fragrance from M. March.

When you want to hit the spot...

*random hot babe suggestively exhales*

...try "X"

Available wherever fine fragrances are sold"

Hey I got that stuff and it smelled like cat spray!!!!

I'm calling my lawyer!!!

[Mr March]

It helps if you shower first, Zinjolfactoryfarce

[VFTF1]

QUOTE (VFTF1 @ Feb 2 2009, 01:00 AM) *

So, you're saying that the way Macek brought Macross over to the USA was the same as the way an idiot crashed his car over a bridge into a lake - and you are praising Macek/the idiot for making Robotech/equalizing pressure INSTEAD of blaming him for Robotech/driving his car over a bridge into a lake?

by the way - they both drowned anyways wink.gif

Ok, I'm starting to dislike you more and more, pete... dry.gif

Solid, logical and well-reasoned arguments have a tendency of generating that kind of reaction Too bad I don't have my Bassara avatar any more. It would make more sense for you not to like me if I still had my Bassara avatar - but, given that I have Minmey's butt in my Avatar - what's not to like?

OK, THAT'S IT. You've never watched it, Petey-boy. You can't say whether or not it's bad. You don't get the right to knock something until you've tried it, and with an anime, that means the whole, damn series.

In general, it is true that you don't get the right to know something until you've tried it - however, this doesn't apply in two cases:

a) Isamu Dyson and sour apples

b) Robotech

Why?

Because by definition - sour apples are sour. If you KNOW you don't like sour tastes and you have a reasonable understanding of what "sour" is like as a taste, then you actually don't have to try sour apples in order to know you don't like them. By analogy: do you really need to stick your hand in the fire to "know" that it's hot? To put it bluntly: I think the empiricist argument is blatantly false; a prior knowledge is possible and deductive reasoning is able to bring us knowledge without having to experience something. The best example to show why this is so? Murder. Do you REALLY need to kill someone in order to figure out whether or not it's immoral to do so? Do you need to steal, lie, rob, cheat, keep your head under water for 35 minutes, jump off a cliff, cut yourself with a knife etc etc etc to "know" that these are not beneficial or moral things to do? No.

Robotech doesn't even exist. To say that you can't criticize Robotech unless you see it is like saying you can't criticize Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet until you see the Leonardo DiCaprio version of it. At best, Robotech is a twisted and weak interpretation of Macross as it was in the original. I think I've been fair to Robotech, acknowledging the constraints under which it was developed - but those constraints no longer apply. It was one big artificial construct - and all of the reasons why it needed to be presented that way are now dead and gone. The original Macross can be shown by itself and there is absolutely no need to keep Robotech alive - because there actually is no such thing as Robotech. This is the most fundamental criticism of Robotech and the main reason why you actually don't have to subject yourself to it in order to criticize it.

You yourself said he failed at violating it, then. smile.gif What's so contradictory about my analogy?

No, I didn't. I said he violated it and still failed, not that he failed at violating it. Big difference. He violated Macross because he figured it was necessary in order to bring it over to the West and therefore cobbled together Robotech. Robotech basically failed anyways.

My point was to say that if the REASON why he violated Macross was to "save it" - aka - to be able to bring it over to the West in the hopes that some of its' initial brilliance would shine through - then he failed in saving it.

If the choice is between bringing original Macross over and seeing it fail, or violating Macross, making Robotech, and seeing that fail - then I believe it would have been better had he just brought over Macross, Macross failed, and he would be lauded as a hero for trying to bring Macross over to the west.

Nothing contradictory I can see in this point of view.

First off, who started this thread to rip Robotech? It's saying that Robotech is OK, and Macross is Win. DON'T RIP!

The thread is about a guy who watched Robotech and finally got around to watching Macross and shared his impressions with us, and then other members chime in with their opinions. No where does it say we can't rip Robotech.

Wow... He just compared it to Thundercats... The dialog, like all of it, is sub-Macross, but that bad.

I actually think Kieth made an unfair comparisson too - but for a different reason: Thunder-Cats was fun and the diaologue was on the whole much better than Robotech...so his comparisson is unfair...to Thundercats

Me? What did I do? smile.gif

You? Clearly you forgot to add Veritech fighters to the Macross Manual. After all, Robotech is Ok. It's not win - but it's ok. Get to work

I don't think this example really fits your argument. It wasn't the play that "created" the anti-government sentiment, only motivated the people to act on existing dis-satisfaction.

M7 portrays the music as having the affect of creating the change, which is stretching reality IMO. There has to be an initial desire for the change to begin with.

Fair enough.

Although - it is arguable that the Protodevilin did yearn for change and were dissatisfied. I mean; notice that the only reason they sucked other people's spiritia was because they were convinced that they couldn't produce any on their own. Bassara wanted to show them - through his music- that in fact they COULD; that they didn't need to steal other people's spiritia; that they could generate their own.

The Protodevilin's despair is evident in their entire venture; as is its' futility - since they hate Bassara, but they also need him to generate Spiritia in their Spiritia farm.

So, in a way, they did yearn for change - Bassara was the catalyst for it. Gamlin and the other soldiers could never have been.

Pete

[Zinjo]

An addition to VFTF1's assertion, is that in reality, Macek didn't "have" to cobble together the other shows to make RT. At the time Anthology series were all the rage and there was no compelling market pressure for him not to make RT an anime anthology show.

As a matter of fact it, would have better served the source material and provided a vehicle for the brand name to bring over any number of mecha anime series under the RT umbrella.

It is quite probable that an RT anthology show could still be running even to today and HG would not have mothballed the RT brand for nearly a decade as it did in the 90s.

[dreamweaver13]

Yeah - Starship troopers was cool. But notice that they NEVER tried singing in Starship troopers.

Ah. obviously you haven't seen the third starship troopers movie.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Ach, I give up. You're never gonna get it through your skull...

I have figured out why you've got Minmay's ass in your avatar, though: You're a complete ass yourself!

On a final note pertaining to our arguement: Sour Apples are sour apples. No doubt. However, it's not as simple a generalization with an anime. If everyone used the first episodes of M7 to generalize it, it'd never have made it past 3 episodes. Yet it did. That's because people decided to watch it.

Now think of this: Robotech had people that watched it. Robotech, as an entity, still exists today. (Don't give me that "Robotech doesn't exist!" bull. It's its own entity at this point; an amalgamation of 3 separate ones.) Therefore, Robotech must have had and still has fans. That's because people were willing to keep watching. Hell, for some, it was the first exposure to anime, or anything Japanese, for that matter. Such is the case with my father.

Moving on: 5 more days until THE DAY!

[VF5SS]

Robotech is just like smearing a ring sh*t on the Mona Lisa. Sure we might be able to still see the good parts of the painting, but you've still smeared a ring of sh*t on it.

[VFTF1]

Now think of this: Robotech had people that watched it. Robotech, as an entity, still exists today. (Don't give me that "Robotech doesn't exist!" bull. It's its own entity at this point; an amalgamation of 3 separate ones.) Therefore, Robotech must have had and still has fans. That's because people were willing to keep watching.

Yes, and the Flat Earth Society does still have members joining it. But that doesn't make the Earth flat.

Robotech doesn't exist. People who cling to it cling to something fake. It is their right to do so, they can even make the argument that the fake thing is better than the real 3 anime it was made out of - sure. They can believe that. But no sense pretending that Robotech is "its' own entity" when it actually is basically a triple-plus bootleg of other people's work.

Pete (the PMSing Ass)

[Keith]

Sure robotech exists, right now it's called "The Shadow Chronicles," and if that's what that fanbase wants, more power to them. Meanwhile, I'll watch Frontier.

[Dynaman]

And just think.

IF the Robotech movie gets released, and IF it is a hit then RT may be far MORE popular in the US then Macross...

(two big IF's and a scary thought in that sentence to be sure - I'm still hoping it does get released, it at least has a chance at being a good Space Opera movie, we have not had all that many of them in the US - due to Anime Japan gets tons of it)

[Dynaman]

Back on topic. Just watched episode 12, and low and behold my kids decided to watch the show (subtitles and all)...

Anyone know how accurate the translation is on the Animeigo release? If so this episode explains the dishwashing and cleaning bit in episode 28 a good bit. That and Mr Ichijo is a bit of a male chauvanist (ack - spelling), but growing out of it is part of his charm...

Edited February 3, 2009 by Dynaman

[VFTF1]

IF the Robotech movie gets released, and IF it is a hit then RT may be far MORE popular in the US then Macross...

I think Robotech is already more popular in the US than Macross. It is also a bigger failure in the US than Macross. There are lots of people in the US who think Robotech is great. There are lots of people in the US who think Robotech sucks and Macross is great. There are TONS of people in the US who, if they know anything about Robotech, think it sucks and don't know anything about Macross. There is practically nobody in the US who thinks Macross sucks.

The eventual movie will just magnify this situation - Macross can't loose. So - yeah - bring on the Robotech movie; it'll help bury the franchise sooner. I hope

If so this episode explains the dishwashing and cleaning bit in episode 28 a good bit. That and Mr Ichijo is a bit of a male chauvanist (ack - spelling), but growing out of it is part of his charm...

Explain please You peaked my interested with the dishawshing and cleaning comment... do you mean to refer to when Ichijo tells Misa that women shouldn't be in combat situations, and look prettier cleaning and washing dishes...and then in episode 28 that's what she's doing (looking pretty as well) ?

Yeah - well - funny thing about chauvinism:

Women think chauvinists are terrible - until they need someone to save them

Remember the reason Hikaru gave for saving her: "I wouldn't turn my back on a girl" - aka: "yeah; normally I'd maybe consider sacrificing a male team mate since it would be manly, but I'm not letting a weak girl die."

EDIT: Note to Schyz:

In Robotech, this scene is completely different, with Misa saying "Oh Rick I love you! I've always needed you!" or something equally stupid and the two of them having a love moment.

COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and worse

Not ok.

Pete

Edited February 3, 2009 by VFTF1

[Dynaman]

Explain please You peaked my interested with the dishawshing and cleaning comment... do you mean to refer to when Ichijo tells Misa that women shouldn't be in combat situations, and look prettier cleaning and washing dishes...and then in episode 28 that's what she's doing (looking pretty as well) ?

That, and Misa's reply of "I can do those things too", which she says pretty impishly, with her inability to discuss her feelings later on she may be trying to show how she feels by doing the "womanly" stuff for Hikaru. (then again I may be reading WAY too much into this)

Women think chauvinists are terrible - until they need someone to save them

(for the below, no offense taken or meant)

In my family, my mother was ALWAYS the primary breadwinner, and never ever needed a man to save her. Since she was born in the depression and first got married in the fifties that made her something of an oddity. This colors my perception of any attempt at showing equality in fiction. usually I find it laughable at best. The problem for me is I'm ahead of the curve due to the examples in my own life.

Before it sounds like I'm going totally off the deep end, HI does eventually accept that women are equal to men, and his attitude was a microcosm of how the western world's attitudes were changing at the time (and still are changing, Japan's as well).

As for Misa looking pretty, she looks pretty no matter she is doing - even when she is ragging on people.

[VFTF1]

In my family, my mother was ALWAYS the primary breadwinner, and never ever needed a man to save her.

Just for clarity - my mom was the primary breadwinner too. Plenty of single moms are to this day.

But being a breadwinner doesn't mean a woman stops being a woman and having womanly needs. The problem is, I think, that all too often, men stopped being men.

Misa says it best late in SDFM TV, when she notes - about the post-Space War I men - "why are men these days all such weaklings?!"

I think one of the things that impressed her about Hikaru was that Hikaru was a classical gentleman. This in no way implies that women can't win bread, or that they should only wash dishes.

Besides - I interpret Hikaru's remark about how women shouldn't be in war as being a galant one. He is not so much saying that women should wash dishes as he is saying that women should not be put into harms way in a war-like situation.

To equate working women with "warring women" is a stretch. Hikaru never told Minmey "hey, you shouldn't be working as a singer - you need to go do the dishes" because Minmey's job wasn't dangerous. So, Hikaru is not really a "chauvinist" in the crude sense of having a narrow view of the role of women.

He is, however, a gentleman - for better or worse - and I think his view of women is spot on (better than Roy's, who is far too cynical about them) and that Hikaru would actually be every girl's dream guy

Pete

[sketchley]

It helps if you shower first, Zinjolfactoryfarce

I think this is the most creative name butchering to date.

[Dynaman]

To equate working women with "warring women" is a stretch. Hikaru never told Minmey "hey, you shouldn't be working as a singer - you need to go do the dishes" because Minmey's job wasn't dangerous. So, Hikaru is not really a "chauvinist" in the crude sense of having a narrow view of the role of women.

Ah, but to be chauvinstic or racist is to believe that one group of people can and should be allowed to do certain jobs while another group should not. I realize the time frame of Macross, and the world view that goes along with it, and I have to shake my head and realize they just don't know any better.

He is, however, a gentleman - for better or worse - and I think his view of women is spot on (better than Roy's, who is far too cynical about them) and that Hikaru would actually be every girl's dream guy

My wife wouldn't even give him a second look - and mentally she is a lot like Misa (strange, looking back now I realize the girl I dated before that was raven haired and very vivacious. She dumped me of course, but a month before my wedding she called up wanting to get back together - that is a strange parellel).

[VFTF1]

My wife wouldn't even give him a second look - and mentally she is a lot like Misa (strange, looking back now I realize the girl I dated before that was raven haired and very vivacious. She dumped me of course, but a month before my wedding she called up wanting to get back together - that is a strange parellel).

Well, if it helps any - Misa didn't give Hikaru a second look for a long, long looong time. I'm interested, however, in your wife being "a lot like Misa" because I often note that my girlfriend is a lot like Misa. So... just to compare how we both view Misa - how do you see your wife being "a lot like Misa?" For me - my girlfriend reminds me of Misa a) because she looks pretty much the same (aka same color hair, same hair style (DYRL), green eyes even, small ear, similar figure, b) because she's older than me, c) because she hold a job that entails a lot of responsibility and is a senior level position, c) because she has the repuation at work of being "Demon Lady," d) because she is harsh, brittle, coarse, and uptight in her personal relations/every day behavior, e) because she has an extremely lady like, provincial (in the good sense), noble and feminine way of being under her crusty exterior.

As to your ex who called you just before your wedding - well - I (sadly) never had any Minmeys in my life. My ex-girlfriend was a psychotic lunatic that I regret ever meeting. Happily, we were only together for a year, half of which we didn't even see each other.

It would be nice to have someone like Minmey in my life. The nearest I ever got was a theatre actress who sang in musicals, and some girl who also sang - although I'm not sure where or how..maybe in commercials or out door festivals or something... But the first one was nothing like Minmey (blond and very cynical - no cuteness) while the second one was more of a "pal" or "tomboy" kind of girl and also nothing like Minmey...

Need to find a girl like Minmey ...

Ah, but to be chauvinstic or racist is to believe that one group of people can and should be allowed to do certain jobs while another group should not. I realize the time frame of Macross, and the world view that goes along with it, and I have to shake my head and realize they just don't know any better.

Well - I respect your interpretation of this - and this really is a matter of personal interpretation I think, because we're talking about something fairly nuanced here...

But I don't fully agree that the "chauvinism" in Macross is a sign of its' "backwards" times. The show was very conscious of the problems ailing human nature. Look at what Misa's dad told her when justifying the use of the Grand Cannon - look at Global's speech to the citizens of the Macross when justifying amnesty for the Zendradi spies. Look at the fact that Kawamori himself has said that initially, Macross was going to be a show about a giant ship that was commanded by ONLY women (Global ended up being the only guy on the Bridge - all of the other officers there are women).

So, just because one character (or two) have "chauvinist" view points doesn't make Macross a "backwards" or "sexist" show by any stretch of the imagination.

Also - I don't think Hikaru was saying that women shouldn't be allowed to have any job they want - I think he was just saying that men shouldn't allow women to find themselves in dangerous situations. If this is a sexist view - I personally don't think it is a bad or negative view. Nor does it detract the contribution women can make in combat or other dangerous situations. It's simply an expression of care on the part of men towards women.

So - I don't think there's anything "dated" or "wrong" with the worldview presented in Macross. I can't see it as being sexist or racist or anything of that sort. If anything, it is all about overcoming differences and striving for love and happiness in a life full of sorrow and chaos.

Pete

[Mr March]

Robotech is already more popular than Macross in North America.

The only thing I worry about regarding a live action Robotech is the remote possibility of "financial" success for HG. If I have to be fine with the Robotech franchise, then I want to be fine with it as it is; a small, marginal franchise that sells off the nostalgia dollars of the 30-something geek. What I don't want to see is Robotech enter a second golden era from profits of a hit Hollywood film, reintroducing their butchery to another consumer generation. I want Robotech to end it's days as a lingering nostalgia product that releases utter crap like Shadow Chronicles and is eventually known in the annals of anime history as a cautionary tale of North American anime adaptation gone wrong.

But then again, I'd have to believe the Robotech movie is going to be a success, which I don't. There's only one reason Robotech is even being considered for production in Hollywood: the FINANCIAL success of Bay's Transformers. As a result of that film alone, Hollywood is scrambling for more "transforming robot" franchises to exploit. Robotech isn't being considered for a production because some talented, passionate director like Peter Jackson is making a labour of love for a daring company like New Line Cinema that risks because they believe in the project. No, Robotech is being considered as a "safe bet" for printing green, destined to be lead by a Hollywood "yes man" director that churns out a homogenized, utterly forgettable piece of summer box office fodder with all the foibles of the worst formulaic filmmaking.

A Robotech live action film has all the potential to be the rape that makes fanboys cry. I must trust in Hollywood's ability to make crap. The alternative is "UNTHINKABLE"

Edited February 3, 2009 by Mr March

[Totoro242]

An addition to VFTF1's assertion, is that in reality, Macek didn't "have" to cobble together the other shows to make RT. At the time Anthology series were all the rage and there was no compelling market pressure for him not to make RT an anime anthology show.

As a matter of fact it, would have better served the source material and provided a vehicle for the brand name to bring over any number of mecha anime series under the RT umbrella.

It is quite probable that an RT anthology show could still be running even to today and HG would not have mothballed the RT brand for nearly a decade as it did in the 90s.

If there's one thing I hate it is people who talk knowledgable about something they are not.

Carl Macek did not make the decision to combine the three shows under one storyline. He was initially hired by HG because he was an expert in anime and had a background in film. He immediately told them that Macross was the hidden gem in their archive and so they moved forward to produce a translation. Macross was conceptualized by him as a direct to video release using translations provided by Tatsunuko. HG Marketing made the decision to combine the three shows.

To quote Carl Macek, "Robotech was born out of necessity. Initially, the concepts and details of this complex science fiction saga were extrapolated from existing animated footage in order to satisfy a particular aesthetic direction which John Rocknowski, President of Harmony Gold Marketing described as "the king of storytelling in which the audience knows from the beginning it will not be short-changed". Robotech owes much of its success to the original material produced by Tatsunuko Studios." -Carl Macek, 1988

It is just your opinion that a Robotech "umbrella" show would be better served to bring over other anime mecha shows. Its not a fact. Here's a fact: Robotech WAS successful as it was conceptualized and made HG a lot of money.

The Robotech show was also not "mothballed" in the 90's. It went off the air in 1988 and continued in video tape releases well into the 90's. It also had a run on SciFi Channel and Cartoon Network.

If you're going to wax stupid about something you don't like, at least get your facts straight.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Totoro242