Matrix Spoiler Emporium

[lebhead]

on one hand i want more. on the other, i don't. so torn...

so was there anything behind that "last exile" thing that Smith said? and who was that girl besides just some smuggled program? apparently she can make sunrises in the Matrix. for a while i thought she was going to be the next Oracle or something.

[bob joe mac]

Why do you want more? It ended it perfectly. Neo died Trinity died now they can be together in the after life so they always did follow each other and into even death. Neo died for what he believed in the Machines ended the war with the humans and the humans are free to leave from the matrix if they want. So.... what else do you want??? A evil cyborg Neo comes back from the dead to fight Morpheus?

But yeah whatever. MAN THE APU'S WERE SO FRIGGIN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean that entire battle was so well done it sent chill's down my spine.

One question when Neo was at the train station at the beginning what did the dialog on the wall mean was it just there orr did it have some meaning?

I personally think that why I loved this movie more then Reloaded was Neo had virtually no lines and every scene had a perpose (Church rave from Reloaded anyone).

[phoenix01]

Actually , the whole scene where Neo´s corpse is taken by the Machines is really a mix refference of Christ (all the self sacrifice and fisical wounds contrasting all his super powers ) and King Arthur who was taken by the maidens to Avalon where he would rest and heal until war started again, this can be understood by analysing the open ending of the film itself. at least that made sense to me.

Yeah, Christ references are pretty obvious and prominent in the end scene. When Neo finishes off Agent Smith and the scene cuts back to the face made of sentinels, the "voice" says, "It is done."

This parallels Jesus's uttering, "It is finished," right before he dies, redeeming mankind in the book of John.

And there's other parallels like Neo's pose and the darkness over the whole land during this cruxificion scene of sorts.

-Al

The biblical references continue:

Thomas - name of the disciple who doubted Jesus' resurrection until confronted with the nail scarred reality. Source of the term "doubting Thomas" which would describe the hero in the first movie.

Anderson - means "Son of Man" a reference from the book of Daniel and one of the most commonly used names for the Messiah as used by the Messiah.

Trinity - three in one, refering to the fact of God being a three equal person unified deity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Zion - ancient term for the city of Jerusalem.

Cypher - the turncoat enemy from the first movie (like you could forget him) alludes to Lucifer, a common reference to Satan (as well as the King of Babylon, the planet Venus, and sulfur-headed matches).

Nebuchadnezzer - first ruler of the Neo-Babylonian Empire for 44 years who conquered Jerusalem in a series of three invasions, resulting in the utter destruction of the city and exile of the Jewish nation into Babylon.

Morpheus - no real name tie in (Morpheus was the Greek daimon of sleep) however, he was the Voice crying in the wilderness for Neo ala John the Baptist.

Edited November 9, 2003 by phoenix01

[Wes]

on one hand i want more. on the other, i don't. so torn...

so was there anything behind that "last exile" thing that Smith said? and who was that girl besides just some smuggled program? apparently she can make sunrises in the Matrix.   for a while i thought she was going to be the next Oracle or something.

She was the last exile because, well, she was the last one to get out of the machine world or whatever, duh!

Now, in the game, if you take the more difficult path at the end and visit the oracle, I know she tells Ghost, and maybe she tells Nyobe if you go thru with her(I rented it ) that she payed the price of her shell code to convice the Medovincian(?) to save the child of two programs. Why? She said the child was important. I think the point behind her was she was potental - machines could love and be loved like humans, and create bueaty as well.(think what Neo told Trinity at the machine's city) She was a sign that machines and humans could coexist.

Yeah, I bet Neo is alive, but I disagree with the Megazone-sequel theory, although a rip-out wouldn't supprise me. The main reason that the machines respected the truce was they reallized that the cycle was turning full-cycle; now the machines were replacing what was "unneccessary" and the humans were fighting for life and identity. Smith proved that this would only bring and end to all of them. Therefore they had to not make the same mistake as the humans did in the 2nd Ren. They were always taking the next logical step in that short story, and this peace is the best one to stop the cycle.

So know what, more movies, cartoons, etc? Depends on how much money those two punks want! What the next conflict? As stated above, the machine's wouldn't break the truce, no good reason. The humans, well, they can't make a clean shirt much less a purpose to screw this up at least at this point. But remember that everyone in the Matrix, including the programs were brougth back. The french-dude could want it, and have the influence to manipulate decent between the two factions. or maybe some outer programs or physcos who don't like the way thing's worked out. The Commander was an arse too. So who knows. All I know is I hope there's no more Keanu.

So machines carry Neo off in the end. Maybe they intend to make love to him. 

Roy, we've tried to avoid the tentacle-jokes for as long as we can, so thanks for blowing it. Good job.

Edited November 9, 2003 by Wes

[Wes]

That's another thing - where's the love for Ghost? I mean, I played thru the game with him and thought he was a pretty cool dude, with a good backstory. I was hoping for him to so something at least interesting, but what does he get? Like 5 lines! That kind of sucked for me.

[lebhead]

Why do you want more? It ended it perfectly. Neo died Trinity died now they can be together in the after life so they always did follow each other and into even death. Neo died for what he believed in the Machines ended the war with the humans and the humans are free to leave from the matrix if they want. So.... what else do you want??? A evil cyborg Neo comes back from the dead to fight Morpheus?

But yeah whatever. MAN THE APU'S WERE SO FRIGGIN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean that entire battle was so well done it sent chill's down my spine.

One question when Neo was at the train station at the beginning what did the dialog on the wall mean was it just there orr did it have some meaning?

I personally think that why I loved this movie more then Reloaded was Neo had virtually no lines   and every scene had a perpose (Church rave from Reloaded anyone).

there's a lot more that can be told. what happens to the people in the Matrix now? they can't all be freed at once instantly - they could die from shock (people are not removed from the Matrix after a certain age, remember?), run out of natural resources for a huge population, cultural unrest, etc. hardly what i call a happy ending.

there could be scores of stories that don't involve Neo or Trinity. there is a whole world out there that could be explored. after Macross was Macross Plus, Macross 7. they told more of the Macross universe without basing the story on the original characters. the same can be done in the Matrix universe.

also, remember that it is implied that peace will not last - and how could it? the Oracle also implied that Neo would come back, probably as another "One" - which means that the whole process may yet repeat itself again, maybe a little differently this time. a lot can still be told. of course that doesn't mean that it should be told. people tend to mess up sequels. that's why i'm torn. i want to know more, but at the same time i like keeping it open-ended.

either way, an evil cyborg Neo wouldn't come until at least the 8th movie.

Edited November 9, 2003 by lebhead

[Keith]

Neo will come back as Neo, there's been no firm proof of actual "re-incarnation," just repetitious occurances. Neo being "the one," doesn't mean he's the same "one" that made the same mistake 5 times in a row. For that to happen, not only would he have to return to the source, but the machines would have to intentionally implant a soul into a human child, causing the conflict intentionally. The Architect implied that the random occurance happened despite attempts to prevent it.

And Neo was indeed alive at the end.

[NERV]

Now what I want to know is where the Twins went? Did they just fly away at the end of Reloaded? The way they were hyping them prior to Reloaded's release, I thought they'd have a bigger part to play.

they died when the escalade blew up when they go ghosty they are immune to physical attacks but fire is energy they show then being burned in their ghost forms

[EXO]

One question when Neo was at the train station at the beginning what did the dialog on the wall mean was it just there orr did it have some meaning?

I think it was Mobil Ave. or Street.

Mobil is an anagram for Limbo. Neo was stuck between worlds.

[MrDisco]

i still dont understand how Neo can 'see'and 'feel' the machines outside of the matrix.

[EXO]

Neo had a BlueTooth.

[Keith]

Code = souls, souls = code.

[NERV]

Neo had a BlueTooth.

morpheus had a silver one

[Golden Arms]

Nice deduction Exo!! I was thinking the name of the station had some significance when I 1st saw it, but I forgot all about it. The more I start thinking about a few things in these movies, I kinda get the feeling that Neo isn't completely human. A newer lifeform. That he might be machine/ human hybird of some sort. You can say that all those that are born in the matrix are, but I feel he is still somewhat different or a more advanced lifeform than even them or the machines.

[Golden Arms]

i still dont understand how Neo can 'see'and 'feel' the machines outside of the matrix.

Neo is of both worlds maybe he is part machine.

[EXO]

I think apart from the implants Neo is physically 100% human. It's his soul/code/ghost(hehe) that is suspect. Since it came form the source like the oracle said, then it would seem that Neo has one of those new souls that appeared in the last exile, a program that was born with emotions. Her parents don't really understand emotion the way she felt them. To her parents they were just words, but it seemed like she was way too emotional. (Waaaay too emotional! ) If you were paying attention, her dad was the powerplant managing software (life sustaining) and her mom writes programs (life giver).

Like someone suggested before, Neo was a new form that evolved from the Matrix. A true soul that inhabits the Matrix that has to be hosted by a human shell, resulting in The One. A further evolution is the Last Exile, a soul that is hosted by a program instead of a human. (2001: A Space Oddyssey has the same theory, that the final evolution of the soul is pure energy not physical.)

Neo is therefore a hybrid of the Matrix and lives simultaenously on both world, not stuck as he perceived. His physical manifestation has a connection to his Matrix counterpart. When he raises his hand to stop the sentinels, his soul that is still in the Matrix sends out a signal that scrambles the signal within the Sentinel. He doesn't really have to raise his hand... it just helps him concentrate better. He still hasnt' realized that he doesnt' need physical actions to affect the Matrix. He doesn't even need to close his eyes, but who cares, he ended blind anyway...

It actually goes back to that bald monk kid in the Oracle's house. "There is no spoon." It pretty much meant 'get over it, you're concentrating too much on the physical".

I think Agent Smith may be another representation of that soul theory, his simulteanous existance was possible, though there was no extension between his physical manifestation and the Matrix.

[MrDisco]

Neo is of both worlds maybe he is part machine.

well that doesnt make sense. when he was hooked up in sick bay wouldn't they have known right away he was part machine?

[MrDisco]

ok i'll accept that Neo's soul, persona, whatever is actually code from The Source and was somehow transferred into a human host shell. we saw that happen with Smith/Bane. What I dont buy is that when Neo is outside of the matrix he can somehow see, feel, and disable machines. why cant all humans do this? why couldn't Smith/Bane do it?

[EXO]

No... his soul is not a code from the source rather his code is actually alive and has a soul... you know... from wherever souls come from. And exists between the Matrix and his physical body, meaning part of him stays in the Matrix even when he isn't jacked in and he is able to communicate with his code counterpart thru his soul. Other humans have regular souls that are not connected to the source and is unable to do this.

Think of it this way... when Neo makes the call to get out of the Matrix, instead of his whole Matrix persona leaving the Matrix like other hackers, it becomes dormant within the Matrix. But the soul that controls both body and code is one soul, it doesn't get seperated despite physical disconnection. When he concentrates hard enough he can tell his code counterpart to run over which ever part of the Matrix that controls a certain sentinel or sentinels and overload it. Then the Sentinel becomes disabled.

[ArchVile]

Maybe Bain/Smith did, remember, they found him uncouncious and I'm certian the Machine's wouldn't have bothered to keep a renagade program inside of a human body alive, much less spend the time to scan his mind to see if he is Smith.

[MrDisco]

dormant within the Matrix. But the soul that controls both body and code is one soul, it doesn't get seperated despite physical disconnection. When he concentrates hard enough he can tell his code counterpart to run over which ever part of the Matrix that controls a certain sentinel or sentinels and overload it. Then the Sentinel becomes disabled.

thats a rather big leap. for one thing it assumes that every single machine is jacked into the matrix. why would they be? why have a lowly sentinel be tied to the matrix which by all intents it is just a construct to house the humans in. second just how is Human Neo supposed to communicate with Matrix Neo? as someone else suggested he has some sort of super duper Bluetooth connection?

the other problem i have is that in the Matrix we encounter various programs - oracle, serph, architect, train master, etc. would these programs have a real world machine counter part? or put another way you have the machines build the matrix then presumeably create programs to run and maintain the virtual world. some of these programs develop emotions and aid the humans. wouldn't the same thing happen to the machines?

here's another thought. while in the matrix why be restricted to human form. couldn't they alter their body and become a huge steamroller and just roll over the bad guys?

[Golden Arms]

The machines have to communicate with each other and get their orders from someplace. So they need to be connected to something. Wireless connection no doubt Probably the source. I dont' think the programs in the matrix have any physical forms in the real world. They would merely be limitations/ restrictions. Who needs a body when you could seemingly be everywhere and no where at the same time.

Disco your question about the machines developing emotions was answered in Matriculated.

[F360°]

I think Neo is dead or this soul is out of his body. I mean if you can see yourself get carry away by some machine then you can't be alive, how can you look at yourself.

As for the EMP, why didn't they make more, it's seem pretty useful at the dock area,, I mean they should have aleast 1 or 2 in hand just incase something like this happens.

The last fight reminded me so much of Dragon ball,, I could of swear that any moment that a fireball/ tamahamei would burst out..

Over all I say it was ok,

[Lightning]

I say a big gigantic alien spaceship comes and crashes on the Machine city, and the humans decide to rebuild it and name it the Macross!

[91WhiskeyM6]

Don't nuclear bombs have EMP when they explode? Didn't the U.S. explode one in the atmosphere that caused massive electrical interference back in the 50s?

[Max Jenius]

Don't nuclear bombs have EMP when they explode? Didn't the U.S. explode one in the atmosphere that caused massive electrical interference back in the 50s?

Yes, but as stated before the effectiveness of EMP is very dependant on the height of the blast. You are correct sir.

[EXO]

thats a rather big leap. for one thing it assumes that every single machine is jacked into the matrix. why would they be? why have a lowly sentinel be tied to the matrix which by all intents it is just a construct to house the humans in. second just how is Human Neo supposed to communicate with Matrix Neo? as someone else suggested he has some sort of super duper Bluetooth™ connection?

the other problem i have is that in the Matrix we encounter various programs - oracle, serph, architect, train master, etc. would these programs have a real world machine counter part? or put another way you have the machines build the matrix then presumeably create programs to run and maintain the virtual world. some of these programs develop emotions and aid the humans. wouldn't the same thing happen to the machines?

here's another thought. while in the matrix why be restricted to human form. couldn't they alter their body and become a huge steamroller and just roll over the bad guys?

Not really a big leap. Maybe I was wrong for calling the whole network "the Matrix" but the sentinels are networked in a sense. Remember when Neo struck a deal with the Big Face and the Sentinels turned around to receive the signal? They are not jacked in to the Matrix as humans are, but part of the machine network just the same.

And that was me that made the Bluetooth crack... I meant it as a joke not as an explanation.

The programs have no real world counterpart, just like the pod humans don't have a Matrix counterpart when they are not jacked in. It's what makes Neo different from everything around him. And as far as emotions, it seems like the programs experience them. Persephone feels jealousy and the twins felt frustration. But I think it happens when the purpose of their programming or instruction is being denied completion. Not actual emotions per se.

As far as the steam roller question, the good guys can't become what ever they want. They can only take advantage of the Matrix's limitations. They can barely run or even fly like Neo, you can't expect them to turn into cars...

[MrDisco]

Not really a big leap. Maybe I was wrong for calling the whole network "the Matrix" but the sentinels are networked in a sense. Remember when Neo struck a deal with the Big Face and the Sentinels turned around to receive the signal? They are not jacked in to the Matrix as humans are, but part of the machine network just the same.

And that was me that made the Bluetooth crack... I meant it as a joke not as an explanation.

As far as the steam roller question, the good guys can't become what ever they want. They can only take advantage of the Matrix's limitations. They can barely run or even fly like Neo, you can't expect them to turn into cars...

i agree the sentinels themselves are all linked..they would have to be. my point is that they would be in an isolated network completely separate from the matrix. so who cares if the smith virus takes over the matrix..couldn't the machines have just wiped it all out and created a new one? you figure they would have copies of their Architect and Oracle programs.

i was kidding about BT.

yes after i posted the steamroller idea i realized that was out b/c it was already explained in matrix 1 that they can only work within the boundaries of the environment.

and yeah if they can equip their ships with EMP generators why didn't they have them at their home base?

why didnt the machines simply drill down 10, 100, 1000 of those boaring machines?

[Graham]

Saw Revolutions on Friday and came away feeling quite disappointed. Sure it had some nice set piece action scenes, such as the defensive battle at Zion's dock, but overall, the film felt very rushed.

One of my biggest complaints is that there seemed to be a lot of things refered to in the movie that had no connection to the first movie or Reloaded. I don't remember specifics, but I remember thinking this several times during Revolutions. Based on some comments I've read I gather that Revolutions refers to events in the Matrix console game! If this is true, that is very bad as I guess probably less than 1% of people watching the movie have played the game.

Also, what happened to all of Zion's ships? In Reloaded, a lot of emphasis was placed on how critical they were to Zion's defence. Yet. in Revolutions no mention is made of them at all! I don't know how many ships there were supposed to be, but I guess between 30 to 100. Were all the ships disabled by the EMP blast set off by Bain/Smith which is breifly mentioned in Reloaded? if yes, keeping all the ships grouped together so that one EMP blast would disable them or so they could be wiped out by one mass attack seems very bad tactics. If the ships were wiped out due to Bain/Smith, then this scene should have been shown in more detail. From watching Reloaded, I got the impression that perhaps only 3-4 ships had been destroyed.

And why the heck didn't the Zion Military seed all the approach routes to Zion with hundreds EMPs so that any Sentinal attack could have been stopped before it got close to Zion. OK, this may not have worked as the Sentinals were drilling newe tunnels, but couldn't Zion have found a way to insert an EMP into the tunnels being drilled by the Sentinels.

What do the initials APU stand for?

Glad Trinity died. I cheered in the cinema. Perhaps now Neo if he lives can actually find a girl that doesn't look like a bloke

Probably Reloaded & Revolutions will seem better if watched straight through in one sitting.

Graham

[mikeszekely]

Saw Revolutions on Friday and came away feeling quite disappointed. Sure it had some nice set piece action scenes, such as the defensive battle at Zion's dock, but overall, the film felt very rushed.

One of my biggest complaints is that there seemed to be a lot of things refered to in the movie that had no connection to the first movie or Reloaded. I don't remember specifics, but I remember thinking this several times during Revolutions. Based on some comments I've read I gather that Revolutions refers to events in the Matrix console game! If this is true, that is very bad as I guess probably less than 1% of people watching the movie have played the game.

Also, what happened to all of Zion's ships? In Reloaded, a lot of emphasis was placed on how critical they were to Zion's defence. Yet. in Revolutions no mention is made of them at all! I don't know how many ships there were supposed to be, but I guess between 30 to 100. Were all the ships disabled by the EMP blast set off by Bain/Smith which is breifly mentioned in Reloaded? if yes, keeping all the ships grouped together so that one EMP blast would disable them or so they could be wiped out by one mass attack seems very bad tactics. If the ships were wiped out due to Bain/Smith, then this scene should have been shown in more detail. From watching Reloaded, I got the impression that perhaps only 3-4 ships had been destroyed.

And why the heck didn't the Zion Military seed all the approach routes to Zion with hundreds EMPs so that any Sentinal attack could have been stopped before it got close to Zion. OK, this may not have worked as the Sentinals were drilling newe tunnels, but couldn't Zion have found a way to insert an EMP into the tunnels being drilled by the Sentinels.

What do the initials APU stand for?

Glad Trinity died. I cheered in the cinema. Perhaps now Neo if he lives can actually find a girl that doesn't look like a bloke

Probably Reloaded & Revolutions will seem better if watched straight through in one sitting.

Graham

I agree with 99% of what you said! The film did feel rushed, and probably would have been better as one long movie than two. While Trinity wasn't too bad in the first movie, she looks like she's in her 60s now, and is kind of discusting. Props for killing her off. And yes, the game was referenced a lot. I'm not sure how bad of an idea it was. I have no idea what the percentage of people who saw the movie was, but I do know that despite horrible reviews, Enter the Matrix actually set records for videogame sales. The Animatrix was probably referenced a bit, too.

The ending was a bit of a let down, too. I mean, if you think about it, the decision to make sequels to the orignal, and then to do it as a massive two-part film with animation and videogame tie-ins, they were setting up something huge. Instead, Neo goes to the head machine honchos and says "peace," and the machines just go for it, for some inexplicable reason. It may have worked for the story, but it was still kind of weak.

I also side with those who say Smith had knowledge of the fight because he absorbed the Oracle, not because it was the nth time that he fought with the One. And like Keith, I don't believe that each version of the One was Neo.

Speaking of Keith, at the end of the film, the Architect says something to the Oracle along the lines of "Those who want to will be released," implying that those that want to can also stay inside the Matrix. 99% sure on that.

[EXO]

APUs (Armored Personnel Units)

As much as I claim to understand the whole LIMBO thing, there were plenty of plot holes apparent to me. I already stated some on my first. But the missing Zion ships, no EMP bombs in the dock or how about lightning gun turrets???

I resigned from the story from the first one, so I thoroughly enjoyed the last two. It was hokey to begin with.... haha!!!

Also, so freakin what if they let go of the people that wanted out, they can just grow some more people!!!

[Keith]

Speaking of Keith, at the end of the film, the Architect says something to the Oracle along the lines of "Those who want to will be released," implying that those that want to can also stay inside the Matrix. 99% sure on that.

Honestly, I thought he said "of course we'll let them go," but I'm not about ot go pay to see it again, so wait 'til it comes out on DVD.

Also, so freakin what if they let go of the people that wanted out, they can just grow some more people!!!

But then they would have to give them a choice whether to stay or go too, and wait until they all become of age, etc.

[EXO]

But then they would have to give them a choice whether to stay or go too, and wait until they all become of age, etc.

I doubt they'll give them that choice... Only the people that realize that they're in the Matrix, the rest are just batteries and food for future batteries.

[Keith]

But then they would have to give them a choice whether to stay or go too, and wait until they all become of age, etc.

I doubt they'll give them that choice... Only the people that realize that they're in the Matrix, the rest are just batteries and food for future batteries.

The whole point was that with the war over, they "would" then give them the choice irregardless.

[EXO]

The whole point was that with the war over, they "would" then give them the choice irregardless.

All of them? Where did you get that?

As far as I can remember...

Architect: You play a dangerous game...

Oracle: Choice always is...

Architect: And how long so you expect this peace to last...

Oracle: As long as it has to...(not sure about this part)

Oracle: What about the ones that want out?

Architect: They'll be freed as per the agreement.

Oracle: I have you word on that?

Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

Not word for word, but as my memory serves...