Mohamed Baptism & The Savior666 Trinity Squad

[VFTF1]

So...I used the search function, and I couldn't find anything like this thread topic - which I will try to explain in a moment. I considered opening this as a "parody" thread in the Fan works section - but I'm more interested in peoples' opinions on the subject rather than making some kind of parody of the subject... Here's the topic:

As I watch more and more anime, I notice the widespread tendency of giving characters and mecha various religious or important sounding names, which has less to do with the actual religion or 'important thing' and more to do with making the character or mecha sound important.

This part I understand.

However, at some point - does it grate on anybody's nerves? Would you prefer that characters were just named regular Japanese names, or at worse regular western/japanese/various international names rather than have them carrying these ridiculously pretensious sounding names?

I know - it's not everywhere - and I'll freely admit that I've watched far too little anime to generalize, so if it sounds like I am - don't beat me too hard. And yes - it might just be because I've been watching a bit of Gundam OO and have found the names to all be rather over-the-top...but - is this really as wide spread as I'm making it out?

I guess I just started to imagine (here's where the "parody" part comes in) an anime which is called

Mohamed Baptism & The Savior666 Trinity Squad

Mohamed Baptism is a regular, down to Earth 12 year old Japanese boy who lives on the Saint Peter Space Station, which has recently been attacked by Beelzebub Attack drones. Thankfully, his brilliant underappreciated father, Jesus, has been working night and day on a new line of defensive mecha called Savior666, all of which come in varients and will form the Trinity Squad (consisting of Mohamed Baptism and his friends, the 13 year old blond Mary and the 15 year old brunette Joesephine). Together, they will battle the Beelzebub Attack drones.

Yeah - kind of overboard - but sometimes I just get annoyed at the excessive use of "give him an important name" "symbolism" in anime.

I don't want to point fingers to any particular anime that I've been watching - because it's not THAT big a deal. And it's not like I think any particular anime goes too overboard with this.

I'm just talking about anime in general. Does this bother you? Is it a problem? Will this thread survive?

Pete

[Gubaba]

So...I used the search function, and I couldn't find anything like this thread topic - which I will try to explain in a moment. I considered opening this as a "parody" thread in the Fan works section - but I'm more interested in peoples' opinions on the subject rather than making some kind of parody of the subject... Here's the topic:

As I watch more and more anime, I notice the widespread tendency of giving characters and mecha various religious or important sounding names, which has less to do with the actual religion or 'important thing' and more to do with making the character or mecha sound important.

This part I understand.

However, at some point - does it grate on anybody's nerves? Would you prefer that characters were just named regular Japanese names, or at worse regular western/japanese/various international names rather than have them carrying these ridiculously pretensious sounding names?

I know - it's not everywhere - and I'll freely admit that I've watched far too little anime to generalize, so if it sounds like I am - don't beat me too hard. And yes - it might just be because I've been watching a bit of Gundam OO and have found the names to all be rather over-the-top...but - is this really as wide spread as I'm making it out?

I guess I just started to imagine (here's where the "parody" part comes in) an anime which is called

Mohamed Baptism & The Savior666 Trinity Squad

Mohamed Baptism is a regular, down to Earth 12 year old Japanese boy who lives on the Saint Peter Space Station, which has recently been attacked by Beelzebub Attack drones. Thankfully, his brilliant underappreciated father, Jesus, has been working night and day on a new line of defensive mecha called Savior666, all of which come in varients and will form the Trinity Squad (consisting of Mohamed Baptism and his friends, the 13 year old blond Mary and the 15 year old brunette Joesephine). Together, they will battle the Beelzebub Attack drones.

Yeah - kind of overboard - but sometimes I just get annoyed at the excessive use of "give him an important name" "symbolism" in anime.

I don't want to point fingers to any particular anime that I've been watching - because it's not THAT big a deal. And it's not like I think any particular anime goes too overboard with this.

I'm just talking about anime in general. Does this bother you? Is it a problem? Will this thread survive?

Pete

I wouldn't say it bothers me, really, although sometimes it gets to be a little much (A seemingly normal young American woman named, of all things, MARVEL FROZEN??? What the hell were they thinking?).

But names in fiction are important, and if the characters have silly-sounding names, then...well, that's not good.

But then, on the other hand, you get names like the pretty normal-sounding "Susumu Kodai" getting changed to the rather wacky "Derek Wildstar," so there's a lot of blame to go around.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the religious names, though. A lot of mecha seem to get mythological names, but I can't think of many characters that do...at least, not off the top of my head.

[RavenHawk]

I haven't watched practically any Gundam at all, but in the anime that I have watched I think you get a fair amount of religious names or, MUCH more prevalent in the anime that I have watched, you get a lot of religious symbolism (most notably angels and demons) because I think that offers a very rich background from which to draw story and character ideas and motivations.

[Vifam7]

I'm just talking about anime in general. Does this bother you? Is it a problem? Will this thread survive?

Pete

As a fan of anime directed/created by Tomino, I love crazy sounding names for characters. It makes the characters all the more memorable.

That said, such names should obviously used in the correct context/setting. If I were watching a slice-of-life anime that takes place in present day Tokyo, I certainly wouldn't want a name like "Amandara Kamandara" or "Quattro Bagina" to show up.

Also, I would agree that there is a point where such ostentatious names can be a bit too much - especially when such names are used on everything and everywhere all alluding to some kind of hidden meaning.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Vifam7

[wolfx]

You started a thread like this right after watching Evangelion...why am i not surprised?

Incidentally am watching Toru Majutsu No Index, the magicians have pretentious magic names (nicknames). The titular character's full name is Index Librorium Prohibitorum. A walking library literally.....

Then there's Fortis931, Salvere000, etc etc

[Vostok 7]

I don't think Messiah was a good name for the VF-25, personally. It doesn't offend me or anything, despite being a religious person, I just don't think it fits the design of the valk at all nor the feel behind Macross as a whole.

Vostok 7

[Bri]

As I watch more and more anime, I notice the widespread tendency of giving characters and mecha various religious or important sounding names, which has less to do with the actual religion or 'important thing' and more to do with making the character or mecha sound important.

This part I understand.

However, at some point - does it grate on anybody's nerves? Would you prefer that characters were just named regular Japanese names, or at worse regular western/japanese/various international names rather than have them carrying these ridiculously pretensious sounding names?

<snip>

Pete

I know what you mean but I haven't seen this kind of naming that much outside of Gundam or NGE. Those religious/symbolic names sound a bit out of place at times but then I realise that I'm not the intended target for these shows. Afaik these series are aimed at Japanese adolecents for whom the symbolism may have little meaning. I guess that if they were to use Japanse names it would sound to cheesy for their audience. Haven't seen a Kami Gundam or Gundam Buddha yet

Gundam 00 for example has strong ties story and character wise to the Middle East. I can see the link between using Biblical references and the war to end all war concept by (devine) intervention. I can just imagine some writer skimming through an encyclopedia trying to find cool sounding names related to Christianity.

So in the end it doesn't bother me much. I'm pretty sure most of the anime audience would cry havoc if names got westernised, if Robotech and other early anime translations are any indication.

Will this thread survive? Not if Tomino can help it

[F-ZeroOne]

You really need to play Xenogears.

I can't say its ever really bothered me. Like everyone else, I've gone "What the...?!" on occasion, but its all part of the rich tapestry of the medium. I'm pretty sure the Japanese probably look on things like Teen Titans (which I liked a lot) in the same way.

[Keith]

Stupid topic is stupid.

[Mr March]

Neon Genesis Evangelion obviously began the latest trend in Judeo-Christian wallpapering in anime. I call it wallpapering because this "detail" is paper thin with very little substance, meant to add a layer of pseudo-intellectualism. And like the slim, gaunt mechanical designs of that series, the religious nomenclature and symbolism has been embraced as a trend in a rather large body of anime since NGE. Hence, you're going to see a lot of this silly Celestial Being/Allelujah Haptism/Gundam Kyrios/Gundam Virtue (Gundam 00), John/Simon/Peter/VF-27 Lucifer (Macross Frontier), and other such Judeo-Christian flavouring in all kinds of anime. There was more than a little such wallpapering in Escaflowne, Full Metal Alchemist, Chrono Crusade and Trinity Blood. Except for Escaflowne, I can't really recall specifics from most other anime/manga, only what I remember from reading/watching pieces of them or what I learned reading synopsis, reviews, and message board talk.

So yeah, it's a popular trend

Edited January 21, 2009 by Mr March

[Keith]

Considering the equal amount of fantasy & plagiarism that lies in the religions that said references are based on, it's hardly anything new.

[Graham]

Use of generally silly sounding made-up names bothers me far more than whether or not the name has any religious connotations.

But, then I don't have a religious bone in my whole body. Quite anti-religion actually.

Gundam seems to be one of the worst offenders in the use of silly sounding made up names.

Graham

[Vostok 7]

One of the main reasons Mac F doesn't feel like a real Macross is because of, not only the designs, but because of the valks chosen names.

But I will be stepping out of this thread before it becomes the religion bash fest it's already on the road to being

Vostok 7

[Keith]

One of the main reasons Mac F doesn't feel like a real Macross is because of, not only the designs, but because of the valks chosen names.

But I will be stepping out of this thread before it becomes the religion bash fest it's already on the road to being

Vostok 7

Woah there chief, you seemed to have entirely missed the religious origins of "Valkyrie" (origins in Norse "religion/mythology.") Excalibur was from the legend of King Arthrur, etc. So by your rules, Macross has never felt like "real Macross," which would make Frontier just as real (or non) as any other Macross.

[VFTF1]

Just to reply to various points made:

1) Religion/pretentious religious anime names:

As usual I might have been misleading. I didn't mean at all for this topic to suggest that giving religious names to characters and mecha was somehow "offensive" to a religion or a religious sentiment. Personally, I can't stand people who take offense at petty stuff like that, and I would compare it to someone taking offense at me being named Peter, since "Peter" is a pretty important religious figure - so hey - I'm pretentious and evil? No... My point was something else: namely, that it just sometimes seems a bit silly and overboard and FORCED - like Mr. March said - it's a kind of wallpaper... So - naturally people are going to have their own opinions - but my intention wasn't to find out if people "are religious and offended" or don't have a religious bone in their body and therefore don't take offense. Far from it.

2) NGE:

Actually, I think it was Gundam OO which really set me off on this subject, not NGE. NGE was bearable and proper - because none of the human characters had any pretentious names, and the mecha being called Evangelion was fine within the context. The Angels and the other religious references/imagery also worked and served a purpose in the plot line. I didn't feel that it went overboard at all, and I in fact like the explanation that the religion is alien enough to Japanese people that it helps build a sort of atmosphere in the series that looks and feels alien and different.

3) The Messiah in Frontier:

This particular name didn't bother me, because of Shao Pai Lon. Minmey specifically calls Shao Pai Lon a Messiah in the song, so it was a cute and apt name for the new VF fighter.

But yeah - the Lucifer was a STUPID name because this has no relevence whatsoever to the Macross universe - in the sense that it doesn't reference back to anything.

Messiah has nothing to do with Christianity or any other real-world religion as much as it has to do with a song Minmey sang. The new Valkyrie being called Messiah as a cultural reference within the Macross universe is cool.

Pulling "Lucifer" out was just utterly cheesy though.

4) Stupid topic:

I was afraid that it might be - that this wouldn't muster enough merit to be a topic, but rather - might just end up being good enough to be a POST in a thread about ...Gundam? Something... anything - but see ... I feared that if I just posted this thought in - say- the Gundam show thread - then it would turn into a long discussion - or relatively long discussion - of religious/mythological names in anime anyways... and that would be off-topic

So - anyways... there you have it.

Pete

[Keith]

Since the Protodevelin already used EVIL (going back to the Shao Pai Loon reference), the Messiah had to slay something, so Lucifer works quite well. Besides, that's a pretty badass fighter all around, and well deserving of the name.

[VFTF1]

the Messiah had to slay something, so Lucifer works quite well.

Yeah, except Lucifer ends up being the brother of Messiah's love-interest, who herself ends up being the real Messiah

You know what I mean

Besides- the people on Galaxy who created the Lucifer could have come up with a less "evil" sounding name But then again, maybe I'm looking at it from a western-ear context again. Maybe "Lucifer" doesn't ring a "hey I'm a bad guy" bell in Japan

Pete

[Keith]

But Grace's group (who we can with some degree of safety assume) did develope the VF-27, and were pretty damned evil. Why bother with pleasantries?

[eugimon]

I can't really see it as a big deal either way. Anime writers certainly have always paid attention to names and their meanings even before NGE made it so obvious and anime has always mined Buddhist and Shinto myths for stories, characters, etc. So... shrug, I think if you're looking to anime as some sort of thoughtful lesson into comparative religion, then you're in trouble...

[F-ZeroOne]

Regards NGE - several of the characters are named after Japanese aircraft carriers from World War II (most of them sunk aircraft carriers), Asuka divides her name with at least three American aircraft carriers and a spacecraft, Rei is Japanese for "Zero" (and also possibly a WWII reference) and a number of the school girls are named after Japanese shinkansen (bullet train) services. Make of that what you will.

Edited January 22, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[VFTF1]

Regards NGE - several of the characters are named after Japanese aircraft carriers from World War II (most of them sunk aircraft carriers), Asuka divides her name with at least three American aircraft carriers and a spacecraft, Rei is Japanese for "Zero" (and also possibly a WWII reference) and a number of the school girls are named after Japanese shinkansen (bullet train) services. Make of that what you will.

The only one I noticed was Ritusko Akagi. The Akagi was an immense and very famous carrier, and in fact there's a new model of the carrier out now that is also amazing.

And Ritusko Akagi actual did die just like the carrier - namely - she first floated in the water dead for a while, before being blown up...or..in the case of NGE - finished off from her wounds.

Pete

[Gubaba]

3) The Messiah in Frontier:

This particular name didn't bother me, because of Shao Pai Lon. Minmey specifically calls Shao Pai Lon a Messiah in the song, so it was a cute and apt name for the new VF fighter.

But yeah - the Lucifer was a STUPID name because this has no relevence whatsoever to the Macross universe - in the sense that it doesn't reference back to anything.

Messiah has nothing to do with Christianity or any other real-world religion as much as it has to do with a song Minmey sang. The new Valkyrie being called Messiah as a cultural reference within the Macross universe is cool.

Pulling "Lucifer" out was just utterly cheesy though.

As Keith pointed out, "Lucifer" refers back to "Messiah" (and certainly sounds better than calling it the VF-27 Satan). It's a little clumsy, though, I'll grant you that

Regarding Mr. March's mentioned of Simonne, Johanne, and Pietros...well, that didn't bother me at all, because A) it's shown to be a quirk of Luca's ("Samson" and "Judah" are also Biblical names...it's just something he does), and B) his own name is Biblical, so hs Ghosts are like his brothers, in a way. Although I wonder why they went with "Simonne and Pietros," when "Matthias and Marcus" seems like a more logical fit with Luca and Johanne, no?

The only one I noticed was Ritusko Akagi. The Akagi was an immense and very famous carrier, and in fact there's a new model of the carrier out now that is also amazing.

And Ritusko Akagi actual did die just like the carrier - namely - she first floated in the water dead for a while, before being blown up...or..in the case of NGE - finished off from her wounds.

Pete

The Langley, the Sohryu, and (I believe) the Katsuragi were also WWII-era ships.

[Mr March]

Keith

I didn't say JC wallpapering was new, just that NGE definitely kicked off that latest popular trend in anime. That's not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing, it just is.

Vostok 7

I wouldn't go that far. First of all, the names are just flavoring; a dash of pepper at most. And the name "Messiah" is most obviously an homage to the song "Shao Pai Lon" sung by Minmay in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series rather than an example of the other JC wallpaper names used in Macross Frontier.

As for the religion bashing, not my department.

VFTF1

Well, it may have been Gundam 00 that made you notice the JC wallpapering in some anime, but it's been a popular trend in plenty of other anime, mecha and non-mecha alike. Religious/mythological flavouring has always been around in anime (mentions in Patlabor and Ghost In The Shell are a good concurrent examples) but as I said, this latest popular trend can pretty much be traced back to NGE's influence and popularity.

[Vifam7]

As Keith pointed out, "Lucifer" refers back to "Messiah" (and certainly sounds better than calling it the VF-27 Satan). It's a little clumsy, though, I'll grant you that

Regarding Mr. March's mentioned of Simonne, Johanne, and Pietros...well, that didn't bother me at all, because A) it's shown to be a quirk of Luca's ("Samson" and "Judah" are also Biblical names...it's just something he does), and B) his own name is Biblical, so hs Ghosts are like his brothers, in a way. Although I wonder why they went with "Simonne and Pietros," when "Matthias and Marcus" seems like a more logical fit with Luca and Johanne, no?

The Langley, the Sohryu, and (I believe) the Katsuragi were also WWII-era ships.

Katsuragi was a Unryu-class aircraft carrier.

Ayanami was a Fubuki-class destroyer

Computer tech Aoba Shigeru - Aoba was a heavy cruiser

Computer tech Hyuga Makoto - Hyuga was a battleship

Ibuki Maya - Ibuki and Maya were both heavy cruisers

Fuyutsuki was a Akizuki-class destroyer.

[VFTF1]

Katsuragi was a Unryu-class aircraft carrier.

Ayanami was a Fubuki-class destroyer

Computer tech Aoba Shigeru - Aoba was a heavy cruiser

Computer tech Hyuga Makoto - Hyuga was a battleship

Ibuki Maya - Ibuki and Maya were both heavy cruisers

Fuyutsuki was a Akizuki-class destroyer.

I wonder how the Japanese audiences recieved this?

Doing something like that in America would be lame...

"Hi - I'm tech specialist Abraham Lincoln."

"Hi - I'm normal school girl Oklahoma Washington."

"Hi -I'm party hardy love interest Enterprise Bush" (well - that last one would actually be great )

etc etc

Pete

[Keith]

Well, it'd be more akin to giving characters the last name Lincoln & Washington, which does happen quite a lot. When all is said & done though, I'd rather get interesting works like Eva, than crap like Constanine.

[Vifam7]

I wonder how the Japanese audiences recieved this?

Doing something like that in America would be lame...

"Hi - I'm tech specialist Abraham Lincoln."

"Hi - I'm normal school girl Oklahoma Washington."

"Hi -I'm party hardy love interest Enterprise Bush" (well - that last one would actually be great )

etc etc

Pete

Not that unusual. Ships and people are both often named after famous people, places, and whatnot. Both in Japan and US.

Besides, these days people in real life are giving themselves or their kids, weirdo names. Names like Coco Crisp and Boof Bonser (both are actual MLB players) make you wonder what the parents were smoking. And there's always that parent who wants to name their kid Jesus Christ.

[eugimon]

Not that unusual. Ships and people are both often named after famous people, places, and whatnot. Both in Japan and US.

Besides, these days people in real life are giving themselves or their kids, weirdo names. Names like Coco Crisp and Boof Bonser (both are actual MLB players) make you wonder what the parents were smoking. And there's always that parent who wants to name their kid Jesus Christ.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081229/od_nm/us_christmas_baby

"Peruvian Jesus born to Virgin Mary on Christmas"

[VFTF1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081229/od_nm/us_christmas_baby

"Peruvian Jesus born to Virgin Mary on Christmas"

That news is so yesterday

My grandmother wanted my mom to name me Rocky She ended up with Peter (which in ancient Greek means "stone"), which is basically a nice way to call someone Rocky

Yo!

Pete

[Gubaba]

I wonder how the Japanese audiences recieved this?

Doing something like that in America would be lame...

"Hi - I'm tech specialist Abraham Lincoln."

"Hi - I'm normal school girl Oklahoma Washington."

"Hi -I'm party hardy love interest Enterprise Bush" (well - that last one would actually be great )

etc etc

Pete

You forgot their hot but unattainable teacher, Miss Nimitz.