The Anti-UN, where did they come from?

[Vostok 7]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, where did the Anti-UN come from and why do they seem to be so well supplied/funded?

It's obvious they are an amalgamation of Central and Eastern European countries, but from what we know, most of the countries in those areas (including the usual suspects: the Soviets) were, at least at face value, friendly or members of the UN.

We have to assume of course that being the "anti-UN" they are more a terrorist group than an actual government. But where did they come from and why are they so well equipped (such as having transformable Destroids, aircraft launching submarines, and transforming fighters when the technology was really in it's infancy!)?

My feeling is that the primary bulk of the Anti-UN forces came from Eastern Bloc autonomous regions (the Soviet Union was always split into several smaller autonomous regions who had their own "governments" but were controlled by Moscow) who did not agree with the Soviet Union's kowtowing to the UN, as well as individual military units who went along with the split. At the same time, I don't necessarily think the Soviet Union was totally out of the picture. Given the fact that they had just faced huge famines and rioting, they were probably publicly supporting the UN but secretly supporting the Anti-UN so either way they would come out of the Unification Wars on top... Not unlike the Soviets to do something like that. That can be seen by how the Anti-UN managed to get it's hands on the latest fighter technology. Publicly, the Soviets would have been outraged, but secretly they would have set up the deal between Sukhoi and the Anti-UN.

So what are everyone's thoughts on the Anti-UN?

Vostok 7

[Mr March]

The Anti-UN was almost certainly composed of whole countries opposed to the Unity Government following the discovery of the Alien StarShip 1. The scale of the United Nations Wars suggest entire nations were at war with each other and the global nature of the conflict was extensive (battles for Ataria Island, guerilla fighting in America, Mars Base, Grand Cannon destroyed in Australia, Anti-UN reaction weaponry, etc). The conflict was enormous.

However, Macross Zero appears to show the Anti-UN remnants post-United Nations Wars. D.D. Ivanov, Nora and all the others appeared to be Anti-UN organizations that are running independently of the nations that were defeated during the United Nations Wars. These Anti-UN forces of the M0-era may be well funded and trained, but they are not affiliated with any one country, simply operating independently and likely receiving illegal funding from several nations with Anti-UN sentiment. In this case, the Anti-UN forces would function as a proxy in a kind of UN/Anti-UN Cold War situation.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Jeez, Vostok, you seem hell-bent on Mac0...

I'm gonna say it's the 3rd world countries who, in the real world, hate the US and its allies. So, I'm gonna say a good half of Asia and Eastern Europe... Maybe, also, CANADA!

Edit: Forgot Venezuela, Cuba, and Guatemala... Guatemala... Friggin'...

Edited January 18, 2009 by SchizophrenicMC

[Vostok 7]

The Anti-UN was almost certainly composed of whole countries opposed to the Unity Government following the discovery of the Alien StarShip 1. The scale of the United Nations Wars suggest entire nations were at war with each other and the global nature of the conflict was extensive (battles for Ataria Island, guerilla fighting in America, Mars Base, Grand Cannon destroyed in Australia, Anti-UN reaction weaponry, etc). The conflict was enormous.

However, Macross Zero appears to show the Anti-UN remnants post-United Nations Wars. D.D. Ivanov, Nora and all the others appeared to be Anti-UN organizations that are running independently of the nations that were defeated during the United Nations Wars. These Anti-UN forces of the M0-era may be well funded and trained, but they are not affiliated with any one country, simply operating independently and likely receiving illegal funding from several nations with Anti-UN sentiment. In this case, the Anti-UN forces would function as a proxy in a kind of UN/Anti-UN Cold War situation.

Yeah, I understand the Cold War connection. It makes sense that the Unification Wars were more on a WWIII level rather than the "skirmishes" we see before SWI begins. It does feel that the Anti-UN as shown in Mac0 is more like a well-funded terrorist group.

Vostok 7

[RedWolf]

Also we don't know what sort of ideologues comprised the Anti-UN.

Dr. Hasford was all for the extinction of humanity. Likely not telling that AFOS is a exinction level event weapon to the Anti-UN.

[talonlm]

The Anti-UN was almost certainly composed of whole countries opposed to the Unity Government following the discovery of the Alien StarShip 1. The scale of the United Nations Wars suggest entire nations were at war with each other and the global nature of the conflict was extensive (battles for Ataria Island, guerilla fighting in America, Mars Base, Grand Cannon destroyed in Australia, Anti-UN reaction weaponry, etc). The conflict was enormous.

It's important to recall what the real-world political divisions in the world were when Macross was first developed. The anti-UN alliance would have probably been analogous to the Warsaw Pact plus Cuba, Angola, Nicaragua, North Korea, Vietnam and possibly China (Mao and Stalin didn't really see eye-to-eye). The UN Wars would have been a absolutely massive global conflict.

[taksraven]

I am sure that they originally imagined the Anti-pro UN along Cold War lines. Back in the early 80's, I am sure that few imagined that the Cold War would ever really end.

The only thing that does not make sense is why it did not escalate into a full Nuclear conflict.

Taksraven

Edited January 19, 2009 by taksraven

[sketchley]

This is Macross. They used reaction bombs.

I suggest you read the chronology in the compendium, as the Anti-UN is indicated using both.

[taksraven]

This is Macross.

Thank you.....

They used reaction bombs.

I suggest you read the chronology in the compendium, as the Anti-UN is indicated using both.

I'm not here to debate fictional weapons like a nerd, but the Macross universe is supposed to be based on what is *now* an alternative to our own.

What I am wondering about is how they managed to avoid a nuclear/reaction weapon military exchange that would have created a MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) scenario during which millions, probably even billions of people would die.

You say that it mentions reaction/nuclear weapons being used in the compendium, that may be so, but they must have been smaller-scale devices with capabilities far below the massive weapons that can be deployed even today.

Besides, in both the intro's to SDF:M AND Macross Zero, it mainly looks like conventional weapons that are being deployed in combat.

Maybe the UN/Anti-UN conflict is just an extension of the Cold War, with the superpowers fighting each other through other nations. Who knows. And nobody will ever be able to say for certain unless the conflict on a broader scale is properly animated, which is not likely now.

Anyway, as I said, my main point was how did they avoid total global devestation?

Taksraven

Edited January 19, 2009 by taksraven

[Morpheus]

Talking about anti-UN, did probably lost the UN war and went into hiatus during SW I, some of them probably survive the Zentraedi holocaust and fighting another Anti-UN movement along with their new ally, the Zentraedi.

I doubt the origin of Anti-UN is because of the UN reformation, maybe it was a war for the control of an ASS-1 .

[Vifam7]

Anyway, as I said, my main point was how did they avoid total global devestation?

Taksraven

Novels like Sir John Hackett's "The Third World War - The Untold Story" and Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" both suggest a scenaro in which the use of nuclear weapons is limited.

IIRC, in both novels, the 2 sides do a tit-for-tat with each side getting a nuke attack on one city. The 2 sides then chicken out from using more fearing nuclear holocaust. The war ends shortly after with both sides agreeing to peace.

[anime52k8]

Novels like Sir John Hackett's "The Third World War - The Untold Story" and Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" both suggest a scenaro in which the use of nuclear weapons is limited.

IIRC, in both novels, the 2 sides do a tit-for-tat with each side getting a nuke attack on one city. The 2 sides then chicken out from using more fearing nuclear holocaust. The war ends shortly after with both sides agreeing to peace.

which is a basic rule to military fiction, MAD will never come into play in global conflict because "BOOM! everyone dies in a mushroom cloud!" makes for a lame story.

[taksraven]

which is a basic rule to military fiction, MAD will never come into play in global conflict because "BOOM! everyone dies in a mushroom cloud!" makes for a lame story.

Dunno about a lame story. Dr Strangelove, The Day After & Threads were pretty good.

(Dr Strangelove was on TV here last night at midnight. Trust the ABC to play one of the greatest movies ever in such a bad timeslot!)

Taksraven

[Mr March]

Yeah, I understand the Cold War connection. It makes sense that the Unification Wars were more on a WWIII level rather than the "skirmishes" we see before SWI begins. It does feel that the Anti-UN as shown in Mac0 is more like a well-funded terrorist group.

Vostok 7

The Anti-UN of the M0-era definitely seemed far more well-equipped, far more funded and possessed more sophisticated training than any terrorist organization. The closest analogy would be some kind of proxy war, where the Anti-UN forces are those of a government or faction from a country other than those providing the funding. For example, perhaps an Eastern Bloc country from the former Soviet Union was an Anti-UN power during the United Nations Wars, a nation that still harbors Anti-UN sentiments. This former Anti-UN nation funds a small Anti-UN army from another country, providing this small army with carriers, variable fighters, personnel and other materiel which it then uses to attack the United Nations by proxy, thus avoiding open war in a direct conflict with the UN. At least, that's how I'd rationalize what I saw in the series. It's never elaborated, but to me, terrorists groups would be too small and too poorly funded to be doing what we saw the Anti-UN forces doing in Macross Zero.

[anime52k8]

Dunno about a lame story. Dr Strangelove, The Day After & Threads were pretty good.

(Dr Strangelove was on TV here last night at midnight. Trust the ABC to play one of the greatest movies ever in such a bad timeslot!)

Taksraven

Never saw Threads, the day after was just depressing, and as for Dr. Strangelove...

We must be increasingly on the alert to prevent them from taking over other mineshaft space in order to bread more prodigiously than we do, thus knocking us out through superior numbers when we emerge. Mr. President we must not allow a mine shaft gap!

I Have a plan!

MEIN FÜHRE! I CAN WALK!

[Zinjo]

My take on the AUN pre-SW1 was more of "secret war" by factions looking to control OTEC. The UN Wars were described as regional conflicts which could mean just about anything, from open opposition to the UNG to countries like Palestine and Isreal continuing age old conflicts despite the UN Charter.

The AUN (based on the events of M Zero) was once only a terrorist organization early in the franchise, but was retconned into a very well funded and supplied army conducting what could be described as covert operations globally. I like to believe that certain governments sought to destabilize the UNG. What was going on politically at the time has never been revealed (AFAIK) so any number of factors could have been going on, from nations leaving the coalition to secret coups being planned.

Mac Zero never really satisfactorally answered why the AUNA stopped operating pre-SW1. I tend to be sceptical that an isolated incident like Mayan Island would be enough to deter many of the elements supporting the AUN to stop. On the contrary, it would galvanize their resolve to take control away from the AUN.

[sketchley]

(...)

Mac Zero never really satisfactorally answered why the AUNA stopped operating pre-SW1. I tend to be sceptical that an isolated incident like Mayan Island would be enough to deter many of the elements supporting the AUN to stop. On the contrary, it would galvanize their resolve to take control away from the AUN.

Well, the events in M0 could have been the last hurrah of the Anti-UN Alliance, and the majority of their remaining forces (or the majority of the true believers who motivated/forced everyone to go along with them) were destroyed.

Or... the creators are leaving things open for other possible stories. Given the track record of semi-open-ended endings in Macross, I think it's the creators keeping their options open. But that's just me.

[edwin3060]

Well, the events in M0 could have been the last hurrah of the Anti-UN Alliance, and the majority of their remaining forces (or the majority of the true believers who motivated/forced everyone to go along with them) were destroyed.

Or... the creators are leaving things open for other possible stories. Given the track record of semi-open-ended endings in Macross, I think it's the creators keeping their options open. But that's just me.

I for one wish to see the VF-0 and SV-51 in action again in Macross 1/2! However, if the production numbers as stated are accurate and will not be retconned, I think that that is the last we will see of them.

[VFTF1]

I'm gonna say it's the 3rd world countries who, in the real world, hate the US and its allies. So, I'm gonna say a good half of Asia and Eastern Europe... Maybe, also, CANADA!

Except that in the real world, the US is the most anti-UN, and a good half of Asia and Eastern Europe aren't third-world countries. But, I do agree that we should BLAME CANADA.

Barring the Anti-UN being just Canada, I would think that making too far reaching "real world" analogies here is pointless.

Any radical, immediate movement towards global government would be militarily opposed for various reasons, all basically boiling down to the near-impossibility of guaranteeing that this global government wouldn't become a full-blown global dictatorship.

All federal bodies that have shown themselves to be resilient to the winds of time have done so via gradual growth, long, cumbersome deliberation and usually AFTER facing a terrible war which showed them that the alternative to some form of co-operation was that everyone would die.

In the Macross world - Space War I came AFTER the unification wars - and so the Zendradi threat really couldn't mobilize people to unite because it was still remote - even after ASS-1 crashed. Ergo - I think it's enough to just say that the unification wars were the logical result of some countries deciding that it was imperative to unite the planet NOW using full force - for the good of the human species in general - vs. other countries which felt that they would loose any real sense of decision making or power in this new government and who did not see the immediacy of the Zendradi threat - so their fear of loosing independence and being tyranized by Men was bigger than their fear of big green dudes in space ships.

No need to start guessing about which countries were part of it or inferring things from present reality.

Pete

[Remko]

Funny... I was just thinking about this a couple of days ago...

My take is this (and I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here...).

Even now, there are many nations growing tired of the interference of the United Nations. These are not necessarily governments, but rather the increasingly better informed (although not particular smarter) public. For example, take Birma. Why hasn't the UN send a peace force there? Because the Birmese government said they don't want it? No, because it's not economically interesting. Afghanistan, Iraq, it's basically about stability in the region because of economic (read OIL) interests. So, many citizens of various nations might consider the UN to be a bit one-sided when it comes in giving aid, or making sure people and democracy is safe.

Some of these nations might have a 'regime change' with newer politicians listening more to the public, and omitting the UN's resolutions, or just ignore them altogether (this is already happening here in Europe, where many people are VERY unhappy with numerous European Union decisions, so it's not totally unheared off) personally, I think this is not necessarily a bad thing. (In fact, I've been working on an alternate history / alternate Universe, with this principle. Part of Europe sepeartes from the rest of the European Union, and forms the "Northern European Alliance", or Union, or Coalition or something like that.)

Then we look at the SV-51. It's mentioned (although not actually in the show) that it's an Israeli-Industries (Israel) Sukhoi (Russia) and Dornier (Germany) product. Well, we all know that Israel doesn't take the UN serious all the time. They do what they think they need to do to survive in an increasingly hostile environment (nice euphemism ), this includes destroying even US ships because they get in the way... In my opinion, Israel is a likely candidate to become a founding nation of the Anti-UN, purely because of self preservation.

After that, more will follow. Ukraine and various other Eastern-European countries might follow, trying to benefact from Israel's position. Turkey perhaps. Despite being officially an Islamic country, it's far more western than people tend to think.

Then we have the UN wars. According to Nora (who is horrifyingly scarred) UN soldiers committed war-crimes (again, not science fiction. Somehow it's human nature to abuse power, and who is in a better position than a well armed soldier in an already war torn country), this is from all times, and from all nations. From the way she looks, Nora is likely to be of slavic origin, Probably one of the Balkan countries, although this is purely speculation. But, just for the fun of it, let's assume she is Serbian. The Serbs were not exactly the most friendly people in either Balkan war, and UN forces were deployed to combat them. As M:Zero plays around 2008/2009, she seems to have the right age to have actually been in one of these wars.

Hmm.. perhaps, these Balkan wars are actually the start of the UN/Anti-UN wars.

Okay, long story short (I'm getting tired, and my English degrades more and more as I'm getting more tired) here's the idea.

United Nations: For the large part consisting of the present United Nations, including the United States (perhaps with President Obama, the support for the UN in the US will rise, who knows, everything's possible...) and Japan (well duh...).

Anti-United Nations: Israel, Ukrain, Balkan, Turkey, various Eastern-European countries, various 'more-developed' African countries, and perhaps China and some other East-Asian nations.

As for Terrorist states... I highly doubt these will be accepted in either the UN or the Anti-UN. Just look at Afghanistan, after the US helped them get rid of the Soviets, they turned on the US itself, besides, religious-fundamentalists will never be able to form a coherent nation, They only think that their idea is right, You're either with them or you're against them. And the Anti-UN from M:Zero doesn't look like religious nuts at all... More a higly organized, well funded and well trained military force. Perhaps even a kind of S.M.S.

Well, I'm going to give this some more thought this week, and will see what I can come up with that is believable. Personally, I'm opposed of Nuclear weapons (at least the use of them inside a planetary atmosphere, outside that, it doesn't really make a difference. In space there's already a lot of radiation, and because of the great distances, a Nuclear weapon blast radius will make up for poor targeting), so I'll try to omit any kind of Nuclear weapons exchange.

Any ideas, or correction of misstakes, let's hear them!

[VFTF1]

The above post is exactly why I think we shouldn't really discuss real-world situations TOO much beyond general principles is human nature when discussing Macross stories.

We could all, I'm sure, begin a long discussion with your post - but ultimately it would be a discussion about our real world problems and not about Macross.

Enough to say that human nature is such that a) it abuses power, so b) if some humans make a grab for global power - even under the rather good premise of protecting us from alien attack, other humans will fear - often rightly - that this global power will be abused.

Macross shows how corrupt the UN government is (remember how they treated Global upon the SDF's return).

It also shows how lost the anti-UN is (they just want APHOS for themselves as a power source).

In the end - Macross is about how individuals, no matter what their background, can make a difference, overcome history and bring peace through the power of love songs.

No need to start a historical/political discussion about real world problems which will actually go no where because these problems are largely artificial anyways.

Pete

[Gubaba]

The above post is exactly why I think we shouldn't really discuss real-world situations TOO much beyond general principles is human nature when discussing Macross stories.

We could all, I'm sure, begin a long discussion with your post - but ultimately it would be a discussion about our real world problems and not about Macross.

Enough to say that human nature is such that a) it abuses power, so b) if some humans make a grab for global power - even under the rather good premise of protecting us from alien attack, other humans will fear - often rightly - that this global power will be abused.

Macross shows how corrupt the UN government is (remember how they treated Global upon the SDF's return).

It also shows how lost the anti-UN is (they just want APHOS for themselves as a power source).

In the end - Macross is about how individuals, no matter what their background, can make a difference, overcome history and bring peace through the power of love songs.

No need to start a historical/political discussion about real world problems which will actually go no where because these problems are largely artificial anyways.

Pete

Another thing to remember is that the UN is Macross is emphatically NOT the UN of the real world.

But as for your example of how corrupt the Macross UN is...I'm not sure you can really call them corrupt for not letting the Macross return. Callous? Yes, but thedir rationale is easy to understand. Just like if there's a deadly epidemic, and you have a bunch of uninfected people quarantined, you're not going to let an infected person in, no matter how hungry or cold they are.

The Macross was toxic at that point; of course the UN wouldn't let them land.

[Bri]

I feel that real world politics should not be used in a forum about a fictional mecha franchise.

Also Macross has its own time line which has diverged from ours since the mid 80s. Real world politics back then centered around the threat of a confrontation between the superpowers and SDFM build ahead on that premisis. The writers speculated what the world would be like 15 years from then and what impact a Space ship crashed in 1999 and the following 10 years wpuld have on their world.

Macross Zero has kept that part intentionally vague as the real world and the Macross world are quite different at that point already. The differences by now so large that any real world resemblance now has no relevance to the Macross story. (not having a space ship crash 10 years ago is a big hint )

[Vostok 7]

Just as an aside, but kinda somewhat maybe related, I had a communication come in from a Russian company that is dated '08 but still has CCCP logos all over it.

Thought that was funny.

Vostok 7

[Remko]

The above post is exactly why I think we shouldn't really discuss real-world situations TOO much beyond general principles is human nature when discussing Macross stories.

We could all, I'm sure, begin a long discussion with your post - but ultimately it would be a discussion about our real world problems and not about Macross.

Enough to say that human nature is such that a) it abuses power, so b) if some humans make a grab for global power - even under the rather good premise of protecting us from alien attack, other humans will fear - often rightly - that this global power will be abused.

Macross shows how corrupt the UN government is (remember how they treated Global upon the SDF's return).

It also shows how lost the anti-UN is (they just want APHOS for themselves as a power source).

In the end - Macross is about how individuals, no matter what their background, can make a difference, overcome history and bring peace through the power of love songs.

No need to start a historical/political discussion about real world problems which will actually go no where because these problems are largely artificial anyways.

Pete

Good point!! While wrinting it I came to the conclusion (after reading you're own post) that although it's not totally unbelievable, it's not Macross. I'll rewrite it, to include more Macross history.

Just as an aside, but kinda somewhat maybe related, I had a communication come in from a Russian company that is dated '08 but still has CCCP logos all over it.

Thought that was funny.

Vostok 7

Maybe they did a "GoodBye Lenin"

[Vostok 7]

You know, when it comes to the Anti-UN having the SV-51, has it ever been stated exactly how many units the Anti-UN had in it's forces? The compendium states that 32 'Alpha' variants were produced, along with an estimated 6 two seat variants (would be called UTIs by the Russians, if they were combat trainers) and an unknown number (but no more than a handful) of the 'Gamma' tuned variants. 6 two seat trainers is an awful lot for such a relatively low production run. Look at the MiG-25 Foxbat, there were 1,190 total Foxbats produced and only a handful were trainers. Assuming of course all 6 were two seat trainers, some could have been two seat units with a systems operator similar to the -0D/-0B but I doubt it, Sukhoi makes a few two seat non-trainer combat aircraft but they tend to prefer single-seat fighters, and their two seaters tend to take on... unusual forms Sukhoi Su-34 'Fullback'

So I imagine that the Anti-UN didn't get their hands on every single SV-51 produced. I don't believe the Soviet Union (and Germany and Israel) would let every single example of their top-of-the-line variable fighter fall into the hands of an "opposing faction" to the government they purported to be associated with.

On the other hand, it's possible that the 'Alpha' variants were export models designed to be sold to anyone who wanted them, while they also sold the "tuned" 'Gamma' models which easily could have been the standard issue for the production companies. This was standard practice in the Eastern Bloc (make a cheap disposable not nearly as advanced model for "export sales" to make a few bucks, while keeping the most advanced models at home) and still is in Russia even today (though the newer export only MiG-33 version of the MiG-29 is advanced enough that they gave it a unique designation).

Vostok 7

Edited January 21, 2009 by Vostok 7

[Zinjo]

Or... the creators are leaving things open for other possible stories. Given the track record of semi-open-ended endings in Macross, I think it's the creators keeping their options open. But that's just me.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion...