Macross II now

[nathan]

Considering Zero isn't complete yet, and the fact that it's events have been sealed for 50 years, it's easy to assume that perhaps the VF-0 was also a portion of information that was sealed away, leaving the "official books" to refer to the VF-1 as the first variable fighter.

The event's of Macross Zero consern the island. The exisitance of the VF-0 was known about among navy personel and VF designers. Heck Shin was more surprised at seeing the SV-51 than seeing the VF-0!

And as you say that's only a perhaps. Wether it becomes fact or not it still doesn't change the fact that Macross history was just rewritten and it contradicts what has come before.

City 7 is never shown to have multi-layers, just buildings which extend upwards of the roof. Its City is several times that of the one contained in the Macross, leaving no need for such multi-layering to fit inside the legs of a ship. If you've no proof, no hinting, or any remote implication of such things being there, then you've no grounds to say they are. I've seen Macross 7 over a dozen times, and never once was there a city under the city.

I'm not being one dimensional, Im just paying attention to the continuity.

And you have no proof that they aren't there. After all what city doesn't have mulitiple layers? There's all kind of maintainance tunnels amd rooms not to mention basements and subways. Even ancient Rome and sewers. And the visible city only occupies the upper half of the ship. The rest of the ship is for control rooms, crew quarters, hanger space, storage, etc. Who's to say what all is under the city. Just because you don't see it doesn't meen it isn't there doesn't meen it isn't. Ofcourse it doesn't meen it's there either. The only people who can say that are the creators. If we go by your reasoning then air doesn't exist as we can't see it either.

And didn't part of the "vampire" episode take place in the lower levels?

Since when was the Eifel tower in Italy? The point is that the tower's (in real life) surve as radio/TV broadcasat towers, and coudl easily serve the same purpose in Macross 7.

I believe he was refering to the tower of piza.

Still waiting.....!

I'm still waiting for yours.

The lack of evidence is indeed evidence. Fact is, they aren't there, they're not hinted at being there, they're not referenced even remotely, and there is no written material placing them there. If you want to fanfic speculate, go right on ahead, but as far as the production is concerned, they're not there.

Fact is they aren't relevant to the story. If the story takes place around earth there's no need to mention a colony fleet. The Macross Compendium's Official timeline doesn't say when the VF-0 was created. Does that meen it doesn't exist? Ofcourse not. Just that they haven't told us.

[Uxi]

The lack of evidence is indeed evidence. Fact is, they aren't there, they're not hinted at being there, they're not referenced even remotely, and there is no written material placing them there. If you want to fanfic speculate, go right on ahead, but as far as the production is concerned, they're not there.

Fact is they aren't relevant to the story. If the story takes place around earth there's no need to mention a colony fleet. The Macross Compendium's Official timeline doesn't say when the VF-0 was created. Does that meen it doesn't exist? Ofcourse not. Just that they haven't told us.

If that's what he really thinks, then there's no reasoning with him. Maybe I was giving him too much credit. He got the fanfic speculation right. For himself.

Though i think the VF-0 stuff belongs in another topic.

[Radd]

The lack of evidence is indeed evidence. Fact is, they aren't there, they're not hinted at being there, they're not referenced even remotely, and there is no written material placing them there. If you want to fanfic speculate, go right on ahead, but as far as the production is concerned, they're not there.

Fact is they aren't relevant to the story. If the story takes place around earth there's no need to mention a colony fleet. The Macross Compendium's Official timeline doesn't say when the VF-0 was created. Does that meen it doesn't exist? Ofcourse not. Just that they haven't told us.

If that's what he really thinks, then there's no reasoning with him. Maybe I was giving him too much credit. He got the fanfic speculation right. For himself.

Though i think the VF-0 stuff belongs in another topic.

You're missing my point though. I agree with you, lack of evidence isn't evidence in itself...but I'm not talking about whether or not the Marduk were the Supervision Army, or whether or not there were colony missions. I'm talking about the quality of the storytelling. In this case, lack of an explanation on the Marduk is an example of bad storytelling. There are set forces in the Macross Universe, and yes the Supervision Army and the Protodevlin are both presented with enough to know that they exist, what their role in the universe is/was, even what their military ships looked like. In the written but unanimated chronology (much of which was present at the time of Macross II's release), even more information about the war between the Protoculture and the Supervision Army is provided.

No backstory for the Marduk, other that they're a race of miclones that control the Zentradi, possibly the creators of the Zentradi, and having some relation to the Macross which some of them believe is religiously significant, is fine if Macross II is all you've seen or ever will see of Macross.

Just for a moment, though, try to imagine a couple teenagers, in the early to mid 90's, who just watched the first episode of Macross II and are scouring the internet for more information. Imagine these two young Macross fans trying to figure out what's going on from their knowledge of Robotech (knowing it was a chopped up version of a Japanese show and that all 3 parts were originally unrelated), what they know of Macross II, and what the Macross Chronology tells them. Even with Robotech's differences shunted aside, and going soley by the chronology, things don't add up. Now, add to this their first viewing of 'DYRL?', which only makes things even more confusing. Going by 'DYRL?' alone, which has no mention of the Supervision Army (I think, at least), you're still told that the Protoculture are the ones who created Zentradi as thier personal army. I believe you're also told that the Protoculture were wiped out in the civil war between the Zentran and Meltran...so just WHO are these Marduk?! If they were related to the Zentradi in some way, being the Protoculture or the Supervision Army, then the U.N. Spacey (which has integrated the Zentradi forces which survived SWI) would have recognized them.

I don't believe I have to explain why this is important to the storytelling, but I will attempt to do so just in case. Imagine there are two powers at war. When the war ends, the victors integrate the survivors from the other side into their power structure. Now imagine the losers in this war had another enemy, one they had been fighting for a long time and where very significant to their recent history, right up to when they encountered the power they just lost to. Now time passes and this other enemy shows up. You'd think they'd remember their old enemy right?

The same goes if it wasn't an enemy, but their previous rulers.

Anyways, these factors will affect how they react to these forces appearing in their space. They will affect how they attempt to fight these people, should it come to that. Thgis will effect what they tell the population, a big portion of which is Zentradi, some from fairly recent Zentradi encounters recently brought into Human society, most likely with some degree of knowledge of both the Protoculture and the Supervision Army.

Hell, even disregarding the ideas of the Protoculture and the Supervision Army (which in itself is a huge storyteller's no-no), if the Marduk were to replace one or both of those parties as far as MII is concerned, the Zentradi would still recognize who they had been taking orders from. Even if they didn't hang out at Denny's on the weekends and go to Lord Ingus' bachelor party last weekend, they'd still have some idea of what ships not to attack when encountered in deep space.

To correct this glaring oversite in Macross II's plot, the writers didn't have to delve deep into the Marduk's past or anything. A few simple phrases or comments here and there would have sufficed. Neither the Protoculture nor the Supervision Army were gone into with great detail, but enough information was given to solidify their place in the Macross Universe. We knew who they were, even if we didn't know their entire story. The Marduk were physically present in Macross II, right up to their God/Leader, Ingus, and yet we not only got less information on them than we did the Zentradi in either SDF Macross or 'DYRL?', but we got even less information on them than we did about either the Supervision Army or the Protoculture.

Now see this is us, and over here is Zim. See the difference? Any questions? Hmm? Anyone?

[Uxi]

Heh, I was in those shoes (coming from previously only Robotech and into Macross II, and seeing the explanation about the way things really were in the MII RPG, and wanting more info... I remember telling my friend who was going to Japan to bring me back a Metal Siren, VF-2SS, and Phalanx II toys! Then found out when he came back that there weren't any. )

Your point is well taken. Some explanation could have been given (and probably should have), but it wasn't really necessary to what was being told, though it couldn't have hurt.

The Marduk could have been a majority or minority faction in either the Protoculture or Supervision Army given what little on screen exposition or dialogue is given to either one in SDF Macross or DYRL. There was simply insufficient information at the time to draw a conclusion. Keith's earlier hypothesis could have been a equally likely scenario, but it was hardly conclusive. Any off camera info, while potentially useful, might not have been available at the time and/or the people doing MII might have been doing (or trying to do) to Studio Nue what Studio Nue did to them and MII. IOW, Retcon things from the way they were originally meant to be to the way whoever was running the show wanted them to be.

All that said, I do agree MII has its faults. Just NONE of the particulars Keith mentioned. Particularly, it does rehash DYRL a bit too closely, though the ending is entirely different in concept (no Sylvie blasting Ingus in the face here, though that would have been cool! ) and instead has humanity ultimately beaten. It's the Marduk themselves who turn on Ingus and defeat him, with the humans as the inspiration and catalyst for it, leading to Ishtar's own conversion from Ingus to the Alus (all of which is self-contained to the Marduk and not relevent to the Zentran or Meltran).

The Zentran of Bodolza were obviously not under the direct yoke of the Marduk as those in MII were, though that tight control is probably precisely because of Bodolza's fate. Bodolza's Fleet would have been one of those descended from Protoculture, not the SA (or any Marduk analogue of either), and as such, they woudln't have much (if any) knowledge of the Marduk as of any other Miclone, but just of their giant-sized rivals. Indeed, they would probably well be prohibited from it except to fight and kill them. Now didn't Bodolza know things about the Protoculture that even Exedore didn't? Even if not, isn't it possible (and even likely) that he might know about the Marduk and Exedore didnt? And even if both knew, that doesn't mean the other Zentran, much less their offspring would, except for rumor and legend.

Edited November 13, 2003 by Uxi

[treatment]

Fwiw, at the tail end of DYRL, Vrithai and Exedore were talking about how the real hardship begins and that there are still Bodolza- and Lapramiz- class fortresses/fleets out there. Ingus can be classified as one such fortress.

[dna]

Now see this is us, and over here is Zim. See the difference? Any questions? Hmm? Anyone?

Now, that post makes sense!

Yup, there were certainly holes in the story, but ultimately I liked it. And that's all that really matters for a TV show, I'd reckon

[Druna Skass]

This is starting to remind me of the hg debate thread...

[Keith]

Make up your mind which side of your hyprocracy you're going to stand on.

Are you going to argue that lack of evidence isn't evidence in itself (and as such shut the hell up about trying to say there's a culture park in City 7 when there clearly is not, btw, doesn't matter what building Basara is standing on, it's just there),. Or are you going to argue that even if something isn't said to be there, it still can be.

[dna]

Make up your mind which side of your hyprocracy you're going to stand on.

Are you going to argue that lack of evidence isn't evidence in itself (and as such shut the hell up about trying to say there's a culture park in City 7 when there clearly is not, btw, doesn't matter what building Basara is standing on, it's just there),. Or are you going to argue that even if something isn't said to be there, it still can be.

You obviously haven't really been reading my posts.

My arguement is exactly both of those:

Lack of evidence isn't evidence of existance one way or another.

If something isn't said to be there, it could be or it could not be.

I'm not following how you could have those 2 points be opposite of each other when they are saying the same thing.

As for Culture Park on City 7, I truely have no idea if one is there or not. One was never shown, but (see above) lack of evidence isn't evidence of existance one way or another. I can't point to any one thing that says it is there. I can't point to any one thing that says it is not there. My whole point is neither can you. I picked this rather ridiculous arguement to showcase the fallacy of your sweeping statements pertaining to all the "continuity"errors that only exist for you.

The point is, and this is about the same thing said by Radd above, that the Marduk are not a continuity error, but only somethig that has not been explained. The VF-4 is the exact same thing.

If this is hypocracy, than I don't wanna be right ( that's a joke son, a joke).

What I argue instead is this:

If something is said to be there, it is (unless the facitious comments like the fairies running the UN Spacy (though, of course, you can't prove that they aren't, you just assume it was sarcastic).

If something is said to not be there, it isn't.

In SDF Macross, the Marduk were not mentioned. How does this mean that they are not there?

In M2, the VF-4 is not mentioned. How does this mean it never was? Colonies are not mentioned. How does this mean they are not there?

In 80 years, is it POSSIBLE that the SDF couild have been retrofitted with improved cannon arms and legs? Is it possible? Yeah, it is. It doens't matter if you like it or not, or if you think that is the stupidest thing in the world: it's possible. Is that fan fiction? No, it's accepting what is in the show. By stating that never happened, you are the one creating fan fiction.

In 80 years, is it POSSIBLE that the UN Spacey patch could have changed? Yes it is.

How in God's name could you possible expect people to look at this as continuity errors? When you point out to me the episode in SDFM where ANY Zentraedi state that there is no such thing, in the entire limitless universe, that there is no such thing as a "Marduke"; when you can give me the time code in M2 where they state that there were no other Valks between VF-1 and VF-2, then I will say, "gee, you're right, there are continuity errors."

Untill then, (insert appropriate wise-ass comment here)

I will never argue that M2 was Shakepeare, but for what it was supposed to be, it was decent.

Edited November 14, 2003 by dna

[Duke Togo]

This thread is all over the place... is Keith still denying the fact that Macross 7 was heavily influenced by Macross II?

[dna]

This thread is all over the place...

And it started out as such a nice little thread about how one guy thought it wasn't too bad

[Hurin]

This is starting to remind me of the thread on whether Guld raped Myung. Yet another thread I regretted being a part of once it was over.

I think all Uxi is trying to say is the old logical rule: "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack." And this is just fundamentally true.

Meaning: If you walk down the street and see no homeless. . . does that mean your town has a total lack of homeless people? No, it just means you didn't happen to see them. Or, of course, it might be the case that there are no homeless in your town. But your stroll down the street and subjective observations are not effective evidence either way. You could only assert that there are no homeless after doing a thorough search of the town and other types of research. And, even then, you would probably still have your assertion challenged by the "you can't prove a negative" crowd.

That being said, my English Professor friend is constantly aggravated by students who assert things without any logical or factual basis. One example: In MacBeth (Shakespeare), one of his students simply asserted that the three witches cast a spell on MacBeth, thus causing him to do the murderous deeds throughout the rest of the play. When asked when this was actually done, the student responded: "It happened off-stage."

You can only go so far with that sort of thing. You have to have some indication that your assertion is valid. . . or at least makes sense. Too often, people confuse having evidence with thinking: "Wouldn't it be cool if. . ."

I do not intend this post to help either side's argument. I have not seen M7. . . and I haven't watched MII in a long time (though I think I'll fire it up this weekend!). But, if M7 does have scenes on these "recreation ships" where ancient cultural structures are shown, I don't think it's too large a leap to think that there might be cultural parks in M7. But, in the end, trying to find links between Kawamori projects and non-Kawamori projects (that have been thoroughly dis-owned by Kawamori!) strikes me as playing with fire.

Best Regards,

H

[Agent ONE]

This thread is all over the place... is Keith still denying the fact that Macross 7 was heavily influenced by Macross II?

Keith is having trouble accepting the fact that M7 IS Kawamori's version of M2...

Of course using Keith's own logic, since there is no evidence to directly contradict the above statement, it is FACT.

[dna]

But, if M7 does have scenes on these "recreation ships" where ancient cultural structures are shown, I don't think it's too large a leap to think that there might be cultural parks in M7.

Ok, TBH, I can't think of a single place that does infer there is a Culture Park. I'm just ribbing Keith cause he can't prove that there isn't one. That is the message I was trying to get across, but apparently my satire was not hitting it's mark. I took a comment about the Tokyo tower thing and ran with it.

[Panon]

This thread is all over the place... is Keith still denying the fact that Macross 7 was heavily influenced by Macross II?

He should be, considering it isn't.

[Keith]

Kawamori has officially stated that he hasn't watched Macross II, doesn't get more blunt than that.

[Duke Togo]

Yup, still in denial.

[yellowlightman]

Yup, still in denial.

How is that denial?

I disagree a lot with Keith, but on this one I gotta say he's right. There's no evidence that Macross 7 was Kawamori's version of Macross II. Similarities aren't evidence. You guys criticize Keith for being dilusional while you yourself have no evidence to back up your claims.

And not only has Kawamori stated on numerous occasions that he's never seen Macross II, he's also stated he rarely watches any other anime so that he can stay creative and original without being influenced by other's peoples opinions.

[Duke Togo]

Similarities aren't evidence.

They are when you throw in the fact that Macross II music is used in 7. I guess Kawamori had never heard that either, right? He just stumbled across the music and decided to use it, not knowing where it came from. Riiight.

[Druna Skass]

But was that his idea to use those tracks, I mean couldn't have one of the other staff members have come up with that idea and suggested it to the Man himself?

Edited November 15, 2003 by Druna Skass

[Duke Togo]

Couldn't the other staff members been influenced by Macross II in their development of 7? Kawamori didn't do the whole show all by himself.

[Druna Skass]

Never said they weren't, my point was that Kawamori himself may not have been the one to put the Macross II tracks into Macross 7.

Edited November 15, 2003 by Druna Skass

[Duke Togo]

So my point still stands, then.

[zeus the zentran]

i have to say mikimoto's art is only saving grace of this anime.rest of it kinda hokey.the story's a good idea but the it's carried out isn't so great.And Istar looks hot as hell in short hair.put a vicky's secret thong and you gotta masterpiece.

[Raptor]

And how much longer before this degrades into a Kindergarten-style flame war over MII inconsistencies and M7?

[Druna Skass]

And how much longer before this degrades into a Kindergarten-style flame war over MII inconsistencies and M7?

Hasn't it already reached that level?

Hopefully it doesn't degrade to the level that the mod need to intervene like the hg debate thread in the old boards.

[treatment]

i have to say mikimoto's art is only saving grace of this anime.rest of it kinda hokey.the story's a good idea but the it's carried out isn't so great.And Istar looks hot as hell in short hair.put a vicky's secret thong and you gotta masterpiece.

I'm not sure if thongs were that popular back when M-II was done.

Anyway here's almost a thong.

[treatment]

and for the short-haired Ishtar fans like zeus. i think the emulator-outfit is slightly a bit better than a thong. in some weird way.

[Raptor]

I personally think the Macross 7 version of "Riding in your Valkyrie" is much, much, much better than the original Macross II version...

But that's just because the singer who sang the original was really annoying.

I do need to watch Macross II one of these days...

[yellowlightman]

Similarities aren't evidence.

They are when you throw in the fact that Macross II music is used in 7. I guess Kawamori had never heard that either, right? He just stumbled across the music and decided to use it, not knowing where it came from. Riiight.

With that logic, since M7 had music from MPlus as well... Macross 7 was Kawamori's version of Macross Plus?

The fact that it has Macross II's music doesn't mean anything. More than likely they ran out of time/money for extra BGM so they used other music they alreayd had the rights to (read: Macross II), and did Kawamori direct each episode of Macross 7? The use of Macross II music probably has more to do with the directors and other production staff rather than Kawamori himself.

It's much more likely that he heard the music from Macross II and than Macross 7.

Sorry, the usage of Macross II music in Macross 7 isn't anywhere near sufficient evidence to suggest that Macross 7 was Kawamori's version of Macross II.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Speaking of Macross II songs... who here did not want to blow their brains out when they first heard that fork on a chalkboard of a final song in the english dubbed version? Sheeeeeeit, who was that woman sleeping with to get that job? I am still personally embarrassed for the english language version people every time I so much as think about that song.

[Keith]

Speaking of Macross II songs... who here did not want to blow their brains out when they first heard that fork on a chalkboard of a final song in the english dubbed version? Sheeeeeeit, who was that woman sleeping with to get that job? I am still personally embarrassed for the english language version people every time I so much as think about that song.

Probably the same guy Reba West gouged the eyes out of & slept with to get her job.

[KingNor]

goddamn guys, this is like watching trekies bitch about kirk or picard.

[Myriad]

Probably the same guy Reba West gouged the eyes out of & slept with to get her job.

Keith this is the Macross discussion board not the "other" board.

We don't need to hear about that show in here.......

Edited November 16, 2003 by Myriad

[zeus the zentran]

oh i met reba west at a robotech convention in valley forge back in 86.she seemed cool.she signed my macross'84 book.macek was there he thought yellow belmont was gay because cut out part where he winked at jim.macek's a dumb ass.he should be executed for heavy meatl 2000.