Macross II now

[dna]

It's like Las Vegas.  Those aren't the REAL pyramids you know...

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't City 7 have something very similar to the Culture Park in Macross II? That or the opening credits is lying. Its not crazy for something like this to be built at all, especially after the devestation the Earth suffered.

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!! OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!

[Uxi]

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!! OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!

Yeah. Wow, I'm reeling from the "devastating" attack (the point-by-point annihiliation of the "devastation" being completely disregarded).

[Agent ONE]

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!!  OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!       

Yeah. Wow, I'm reeling from the "devastating" attack (the point-by-point annihiliation of the "devastation" being completely disregarded).

What the hell are you talking about? The two of you have me so confused... I thought the discussion was about the sense of having the culture park...

[treatment]

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!!  OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!       

Yeah. Wow, I'm reeling from the "devastating" attack (the point-by-point annihiliation of the "devastation" being completely disregarded).

What the hell are you talking about? The two of you have me so confused... I thought the discussion was about the sense of having the culture park...

It makes as much sense as the slums/squatter-area of M7.

[dna]

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!!  OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!       

Yeah. Wow, I'm reeling from the "devastating" attack (the point-by-point annihiliation of the "devastation" being completely disregarded).

What the hell are you talking about? The two of you have me so confused... I thought the discussion was about the sense of having the culture park...

You build culture parks on SPACESHIPS! Not on the Earth! Just another example of how MII was so not following the consistency of Kawamori!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bandit29]

At least M2 isn't embarasing. 

Very true. I'm sure my biker buddies would give me alot of crap about Macross 7. My wife sure does lol

Edited November 10, 2003 by dejr8bud

[Anubis]

This thread has gone straight to land.

[Agent ONE]

Just another blatant inconsistancy!!!  OH, it's just so FULL OF HOLES!!!       

Yeah. Wow, I'm reeling from the "devastating" attack (the point-by-point annihiliation of the "devastation" being completely disregarded).

What the hell are you talking about? The two of you have me so confused... I thought the discussion was about the sense of having the culture park...

You build culture parks on SPACESHIPS! Not on the Earth! Just another example of how MII was so not following the consistency of Kawamori!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Earth was blown away in SDF-Macross, same as DYRL... The culture part was a reconstruction of earth things of the past... Things that were lost. All of this was built around the Macross, which is the vehicle that delivered culture to the Zjentohlauedy and the Meltohlauedy.

That isn't so tough to understand.

[dna]

Well, sure you would do it that way in that wack-ass macross II world, but Macross Continuity says that you build your culture parks on space ships. It's clearly outlined as such in the following Macross shows, like Macross 7 and it surely wouldn't have changed in the 40 years following.

Sorry to be so hard on you AgentONE!!!, but I can't hold back a devestating attack like this. All of you know it is true.

YOU WILL LISTEN TO CULTURE PARKS' SONG!!!

[Agent ONE]

Well, sure you would do it that way in that wack-ass macross II world, but Macross Continuity says that you build your culture parks on space ships. It's clearly outlined as such in the following Macross shows, like Macross 7 and it surely wouldn't have changed in the 40 years following.

Sorry to be so hard on you AgentONE!!!, but I can't hold back a devestating attack like this. All of you know it is true.

YOU WILL LISTEN TO CULTURE PARKS' SONG!!!

Hard on me!???

So why not have culture parks on colonization ships as well as on Earth?... Not saying that either is such a hot idea, but you are saying that building a park on Earth is MORE stupid than building one in a spaceship... okay.

[dna]

You're taking all the fun out of this Agent

[treatment]

dna,

hahaha!!!

I think u do need to put in the sarcasm-tag on, tho.

[Agent ONE]

You're taking all the fun out of this Agent

[bob joe mac]

Ok now I'm a little confused on the VF-4 VS. VF-2 arguement. Yeah sure you could compare them but why not compare a even better Valk like the VF-22 or VF-19 now say that the VF-2 is better then THOSE <_

[azrael]

According to Eganloo and the Macross Compendium, who's word I take more than Keith's, the VF-0 has contradicted the VF-1's history or at least force the history to be rewritten to fit in the VF-0.

The history was rewritten back when M+/M7 was done so I'd hardly call it a contridiction.

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

Which elimiates the need for the VF-X and the VF-X-1 which exist in the animation.

The VF-X and the VF-X-1 are still there. What's the problem?

http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronol...1999/index.html

The VF-X was the first prototype. The VF-X-1 was the transformable prototype. The VF-0 was the first trial production fighter. To put it in a larger perspective, the VF-0 is the VF-1, minus a few things. It's still a prototype to the VF-1 because it's still a test fighter.

It also calls into question why all other VFs are called Valkyies which is now the second VF. And the excuse of the VF-0 being top secret is flimsy at best.

Because everybody knows the "Valkyrie". The VF-1 was the first fighter ever to be produced and seen by the public. It is also the first fighter that was mass produced in large quantities. As to be top secret, again, nothing is wrong. The VF-1 was never displayed in it's other modes to the general public.

VF-1 series [scheduled to] begin deployment for actual combat. (However, usage is to have been limited to Fighter mode only.)

Who are the Mayans' going to tell about this transforming plane? Humm? They are in the middle of the Pacific, isolated from the rest of the world. Not to mention they are quite bound together by their religious beliefs. Their not the only deeply religious people out there in the world who are so deep into their religion that they create stories to explain things. Hell, the top secret thing was used in SDF Macross so it's not new.

...

You know what?. Keith or anybody else can handle the rest. I'm not going to waste my time in this thread as it's going nowhere.

[ComicKaze]

Macross II is vastly inferior to Macross 7, stop being an ass!

As for the music, if someone hasn't made it through the last half hour yet, then they obviously haven't heard that travesty of a dub song. If you're watching the DVD, then switch the the Japanese track ASAP, & save yourself the pain of listening to anymore of that craptacular dub.

We all know how I feel about Macross II, so I won't go too far into rehashing. Suffice it to say its problems lay much deeper than that ugly mess they call the Metal Siren.

So Keith, if the music of Macross II is so bad, how do you reconcile its use in Macross 7, the series you worship?

And for the record, when I first watched Macross II, it brought me to tears momentarily because of the epic destruction that was happening in the end. It was amazing to watch Earth's defenses fight back (even though they totally sucked - but the new Destroids are very cool) and I was totally expecting some mystical supernatural thing for the SDF-1 to do. I realized Macross II just WASN'T Macross so I gave up my prejudices and watched it for what it was. I had just finished reading up on some Norse mythology and with them calling the Macross the Aluice or whatever, I was getting excited at what the series might pull. Then the completely blow the thing up and that just knocked me over (yes I was so excited I was standing up watching it). It's not perfect but hey, I'll take it over crap like Gundam Wing anyday.

One fun trick to do with Macross 2, if you have the DVD, put it on English dub AND English sub at the same time and see how much the langauge differs. It has a hilarious sort of effect.

Edited November 11, 2003 by ComicKaze

[bsu legato]

To be fair, Macross II had culture parks first. It seems the Froating Head must have secretly liked the idea enough to borrow it for M7.

[Keith]

Macross 7 had no culture parks, there was a recreation ship, that's not a freakin' culture park! There will be no more discussion of a culture park in Macross 7, because it simply "was not there." What was said was that the colony ships are equiped with City's, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc.

As for the slum, that was a last minute addition to City 7, not a stock component, just somewhere out of the way for Ray to train Basara.

So Keith, if the music of Macross II is so bad, how do you reconcile its use in Macross 7, the series you worship?

It seems more to me like someone didn't read the text they were quoting, or hasn't seen the su btitled version of Macross II, otherwise you'd know that song wasn't originally in english for the second half, it was just a really bad idea on U.S. Renditions part while dubbing, that entirely trashed "that song." Never did I say I didn't like Macross II's music, I just don't like what happened to that song in the dub. Just like I don't like what Manga did to Voices in the Macross Plus dub.

Lastly, the VF-1/VF-0 thing has been explained sufficiently well. The prototype testing still went as previously stated, only now we have a small production run of VF-0's with conventional turbine engines hypertuned to increase their performance, while the nuclear turbine engines are having the bugs worked out before the full production run of the VF-1. The Anti-U.N. pushing out their SV-51 is the source of necessity for the VF-0.

Edited November 11, 2003 by Keith

[Renato]

Macross 7 had no culture parks, there was a recreation ship, that's not a freakin' culture park! There will be no more discussion of a culture park in Macross 7, because it simply "was not there." What was said was that the colony ships are equiped with City's, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc.

Switching to Devil's Advocate mode for a while: is there, or is there not, at least an Eiffel Tower in City 7?

[Renato]

Ok now I'm a little confused on the VF-4 VS. VF-2 arguement. Yeah sure you could compare them but why not compare a even better Valk like the VF-22 or VF-19 now say that the VF-2 is better then THOSE

I guess the VF-4 and the VF-2 were both at some point "standard" fighters, i.e. cannon fodder.

The 19 and the 22 on the other hand were special (and expensive) fighters reserved for either special missions or selected elite squadrons, as seen in Macross 7.

But I do agree that the VF-2 looks nothing like 80 years of evolution on from the VF-1.

[Granbeetle san]

This is a funny thread. A debate like this is never going to come to a conclusion because it's all opinion and subjective. It is fun to read and you all notice such small details. I'm impressed. MII is my second favorite behind DYRL and I'm sure most of you can guess what I would say if I had to compare MII to M7.

I'm not saying MII doesn't take elements from DYRL but, go rent an old copy of 'Roman Holiday' with Audrey Hepburn and you will realize that MII has way more in common with this movie than with DYRL. On a final note, I will admit that I think MII's Zentran and Meltran mecha are fugly compared to DYRL. I like the Gilgamesh but, that is Marduk.

[dna]

Ok now I'm a little confused on the VF-4 VS. VF-2 arguement. Yeah sure you could compare them but why not compare a even better Valk like the VF-22 or VF-19 now say that the VF-2 is better then THOSE <_<

I guess the VF-4 and the VF-2 were both at some point "standard" fighters, i.e. cannon fodder.

The 19 and the 22 on the other hand were special (and expensive) fighters reserved for either special missions or selected elite squadrons, as seen in Macross 7.

But I do agree that the VF-2 looks nothing like 80 years of evolution on from the VF-1.

You can guess, but you don't really know. It's stupid to argue about things like that because neither side can prove the other wrong.

Keith can't tell me that there were no Culture Parks in City 7 because he doesn't have a map. He cannot prove his point, just like I can't say that there conclusivly were. There are parts of City 7 and surrounding ships that were never seen.

The rest of his arguements are like that as well.

No Zentran ships in the MAC II UN Spacy? Prove it.

No colony missions in Mac II? Prove it.

No VF-4 in the history of the Mac II UN Spacy? Prove it. Maybe they had a short run and discovered a horrible flaw and went back to the regular VF-1 style as it was the design that worked. Maybe VF-4 were special forces for the Megaroad. Lots of possibilities that do not violate continuity and he can't disprove a single one of them.

Just because Keith doesn't see something dosen't make it gone. I didn't see anybody eat bread in Mac II, does that mean that bread doesn't exist in Mac II?

I can't prove that these ideas are right, Keith can't prove that they are wrong. If Keith doesn't like the series, for whatever reasons are important to him, more power to him but he can't go around trying to foster his POV on everybody else with such a pissy attitude. I really can't even take him seriously when he starts argueing like that.

Edited November 11, 2003 by dna

[pfunk]

This is a funny thread. A debate like this is never going to come to a conclusion because it's all opinion and subjective. It is fun to read and you all notice such small details. I'm impressed. MII is my second favorite behind DYRL and I'm sure most of you can guess what I would say if I had to compare MII to M7.

I'm not saying MII doesn't take elements from DYRL but, go rent an old copy of 'Roman Holiday' with Audrey Hepburn and you will realize that MII has way more in common with this movie than with DYRL. On a final note, I will admit that I think MII's Zentran and Meltran mecha are fugly compared to DYRL. I like the Gilgamesh but, that is Marduk.

I agree, this thread is turning into one huge opinion, M7 VS everything. to have an arguement is imposible, a lot is speculatoin and opinion,,Opinions are like buttholes, eveyone has one, just some are stinkier than others <_<

[treatment]

I dunno, guys. I still like the Metal Siren in M-II. It's basically a Gundam (without the gundam-head of course) in Macross.

And it kicked so much ass. It even have that pseudo-supersaijin energy-blast crap.

How fun and kewl was that?

hehehe

[Uxi]

I dunno, guys. I still like the Metal Siren in M-II. It's basically a Gundam (without the gundam-head of course) in Macross.

And it kicked so much ass. It even have that pseudo-supersaijin energy-blast crap.

That's what I'm talking about!

[Oihan]

.............Macross II still 0wnz.....

And ComicKaze, I like your avatar!

Edited November 11, 2003 by Oihan

[Panon]

I dunno, guys. I still like the Metal Siren in M-II.  It's basically a Gundam (without the gundam-head of course) in Macross.

And it kicked so much ass. It even have that pseudo-supersaijin energy-blast crap.

I agree, I was thinking it was Gundam-like when I rewatched M2 lately. It is ugly and not the best, but it's not so bad really - it's nowhere near as bad as the putrid VF-1 and VF-19 varients seen in Dynamite 7.

And just to go back to an earlier part of the thread since I only just listened to it recently, on the dub and original audio - I don't know how people could be saying the original audio was so much better than the dub - other than Hibiki's VA who was vastly better, the rest of the Japanese cast were either no better than the English ones or much worse! The secondry cast such as Nexx were completely uninspired and all the Marduk characters were dreadful in comparison to their English counterparts.

Don't get me wrong I'd still listen to the Japanese first, but if the dub had a had translator/scriptwriter and director worth a damn who didn't make it so horribly stilted and awkward the dub would run rings around the original.

[Keith]

The fact that such things (colonization fleets, reaction weapons, etc), are never even remotely mentioned in Macross II prove that they're not there. You'll note they also say that magical flying lepricans are really controling the government in Macross II, but that doesn't mean they are. Don't be stupid.

As for City 7, you want a map, watching the freakn' M7 intro, you get a whole city view. And just where the hell would a culture park be hidden? Factory Ship? The Einstein perhaps?

As for the eiffel tower, I'd wager it's more akin to a recreation of Tokyo Tower, and irregardless, could easily serve as a television transmission tower. Besides which, there's a huge difference between that and the freakin' great wall of China, or leaning tower of Piza.

Macross II only shares one thing in common with Roman Holiday, and that's the stupid gag they ripped off. Unless you have a directors cut of RH with a Marduk invasion that almost exactly mimics the Zentradi in DYRL.

[Uxi]

The fact that such things (colonization fleets, reaction weapons, etc), are never even remotely mentioned in Macross II prove that they're not there.

The lack of evidence is not evidence by itself. That's a fundamental logical fallacy. If you can't realize that, then you need to. I think you're smarter than that and are just being obtuse.

[dna]

The fact that such things (colonization fleets, reaction weapons, etc), are never even remotely mentioned in Macross II prove that they're not there.

What? What does that prove? I haven't mentioned Mercedes in the last 4 months of my life. Does that mean they don't exist?

You'll note they also say that magical flying lepricans are really controling the government in Macross II, but that doesn't mean they are.

I missed that part.

Don't be stupid

Don't be an ass.

As for City 7, you want a map, watching the freakn' M7 intro, you get a whole city view. And just where the hell would a culture park be hidden? Factory Ship? The Einstein perhaps?

You saw the top portion of City 7. How many levels does it have? The Macross had an entire city with a realistic outdoor illusion inside it's legs. What makes you think that City 7 couldn't do something similar. You're being pretty one dimensional here Keith.

As for the eiffel tower, I'd wager it's more akin to a recreation of Tokyo Tower, and irregardless, could easily serve as a television transmission tower. Besides which, there's a huge difference between that and the freakin' great wall of China, or leaning tower of Piza.

Yeah, one's a tower in Japan, one's a tower in Italy. What's the difference?

Macross II only shares one thing in common with Roman Holiday, and that's the stupid gag they ripped off. Unless you have a directors cut of RH with a Marduk invasion that almost exactly mimics the Zentradi in DYRL.

I haven't seen it, so I can't really comment. If there is a directors cut like that, I'm gonna go rent it.

Listen to my devestating rebuttal!!!

[nathan]

Ok now I'm a little confused on the VF-4 VS. VF-2 arguement. Yeah sure you could compare them but why not compare a even better Valk like the VF-22 or VF-19 now say that the VF-2 is better then THOSE

Ofcourse not but they don't exist in the MII universe so why compare them?

The history was rewritten back when M+/M7 was done so I'd hardly call it a contridiction.

I'm aware of what it says. That was my question after all. What it says is this

The VF-0 pre-dates the VF-1 Valkyrie in both development and deployment. At the time of the first Macross series, Shoji Kawamori did write in the first version of the Macross Chronology that the VF-1 Valkyrie was to have started production in November of 2007, However, at the time of Macross Plus and Macross 7, the creators wrote in version 2 of the chronology that the VF-1 Valkyrie did not actually start production and fly until late 2008 -- despite being scheduled to mass-produce in 2007. Later, Macross Zero gives the explanation that the thermonuclear reaction engines were not ready in time. Therefore, the earlier VF-0 (which could accomodate the large conventional engines that the VF-1 Valkyrie was too small for) was deployed first into actual combat on a provisional basis.

Saying that the VF-1 was delayed doesn't change history. Saying that the VF-o was the first Varliable Fighter does.

The VF-X and the VF-X-1 are still there. What's the problem?

They were built to test the VF-1 and its tranformation system. You don't need them when the Transformation systems have already been prooven with the VF-0. The VF-X-1 would have been a full transformable fighter. Not one that only had fighter and GERWALK modes.

The VF-X was the first prototype. The VF-X-1 was the transformable prototype. The VF-0 was the first trial production fighter. To put it in a larger perspective, the VF-0 is the VF-1, minus a few things. It's still a prototype to the VF-1 because it's still a test fighter.

That is incorrect. Read eganloo's answer again. The VF-0 was always first in development and production. It came before the VF-X.

Because everybody knows the "Valkyrie". The VF-1 was the first fighter ever to be produced and seen by the public. It is also the first fighter that was mass produced in large quantities. As to be top secret, again, nothing is wrong. The VF-1 was never displayed in it's other modes to the general public.

Which is no longer correct with the existance of the VF-0. The VF-1 is the first to be seen by the public and see wide spread use but it is nolonger the first VF.

VF-1 series [scheduled to] begin deployment for actual combat. (However, usage is to have been limited to Fighter mode only.)

Who are the Mayans' going to tell about this transforming plane? Humm? They are in the middle of the Pacific, isolated from the rest of the world. Not to mention they are quite bound together by their religious beliefs. Their not the only deeply religious people out there in the world who are so deep into their religion that they create stories to explain things. Hell, the top secret thing was used in SDF Macross so it's not new.

What is your point???

Lastly, the VF-1/VF-0 thing has been explained sufficiently well. The prototype testing still went as previously stated, only now we have a small production run of VF-0's with conventional turbine engines hypertuned to increase their performance, while the nuclear turbine engines are having the bugs worked out before the full production run of the VF-1. The Anti-U.N. pushing out their SV-51 is the source of necessity for the VF-0.

Again the VF-0 was developed and produced before the VF-1. Which meens that the VF-1 is actually the third VF in existance. Read eganloo's statement again.

The fact that such things (colonization fleets, reaction weapons, etc), are never even remotely mentioned in Macross II prove that they're not there. You'll note they also say that magical flying lepricans are really controling the government in Macross II, but that doesn't mean they are. Don't be stupid.

To qoute you "Don't be stupid". Just becausr they are not there does not meen they do not exist. And again they are not relevent to the story, so there's no need for them.

As for City 7, you want a map, watching the freakn' M7 intro, you get a whole city view. And just where the hell would a culture park be hidden? Factory Ship? The Einstein perhaps?

The holllywood ship probably. It's certainly large enough.

As for the eiffel tower, I'd wager it's more akin to a recreation of Tokyo Tower, and irregardless, could easily serve as a television transmission tower. Besides which, there's a huge difference between that and the freakin' great wall of China, or leaning tower of Piza.

That's your guess. Doesn't proove it's true. And when they can rebuild a factory satellite the size of a moon and build a massive colonly ship all in a year does it make any sense to say that they can't build replicas of those things?

Edited November 12, 2003 by nathan

[Keith]

Considering Zero isn't complete yet, and the fact that it's events have been sealed for 50 years, it's easy to assume that perhaps the VF-0 was also a portion of information that was sealed away, leaving the "official books" to refer to the VF-1 as the first variable fighter.

You saw the top portion of City 7. How many levels does it have? The Macross had an entire city with a realistic outdoor illusion inside it's legs. What makes you think that City 7 couldn't do something similar. You're being pretty one dimensional here Keith.

City 7 is never shown to have multi-layers, just buildings which extend upwards of the roof. Its City is several times that of the one contained in the Macross, leaving no need for such multi-layering to fit inside the legs of a ship. If you've no proof, no hinting, or any remote implication of such things being there, then you've no grounds to say they are. I've seen Macross 7 over a dozen times, and never once was there a city under the city.

I'm not being one dimensional, Im just paying attention to the continuity.

Yeah, one's a tower in Japan, one's a tower in Italy. What's the difference?

Since when was the Eifel tower in Italy? The point is that the tower's (in real life) surve as radio/TV broadcasat towers, and coudl easily serve the same purpose in Macross 7.

Listen to my devestating rebuttal!!!

Still waiting.....!

The lack of evidence is not evidence by itself. That's a fundamental logical fallacy. If you can't realize that, then you need to. I think you're smarter than that and are just being obtuse.

The lack of evidence is indeed evidence. Fact is, they aren't there, they're not hinted at being there, they're not referenced even remotely, and there is no written material placing them there. If you want to fanfic speculate, go right on ahead, but as far as the production is concerned, they're not there.

[Renato]

Yeah, one's a tower in Japan, one's a tower in Italy. What's the difference?

Dude, the Eiffel Tower is in France, not Italy. Get out more.

(The difference is that Yoshi would smack you around if he read that... Where is he gone, anyway?)

[Renato]

As for City 7, you want a map, watching the freakn' M7 intro, you get a whole city view. And just where the hell would a culture park be hidden? Factory Ship? The Einstein perhaps?

The intro to M7 is inaccurate.

You'll notice that Basara stands on the roof of his apartment building overlooking a green and a lake, somewhere in City 7. What the hell is this?? Basara's building is supposed to be in Akusho, which is bolted onto the side of the ship.

They just fixed it to make it look cooler. It worked because it does, but it is still inaccurate.

[dna]

Yeah, one's a tower in Japan, one's a tower in Italy.  What's the difference? 

Dude, the Eiffel Tower is in France, not Italy. Get out more.

(The difference is that Yoshi would smack you around if he read that... Where is he gone, anyway?)

Dude, the Tokyo tower is in... Tokyo, which, last time I checked was in Japan. Internet says the Leaning Tower of Pisa isstill in Italy. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough to what I was referncing.

Keith, you are messed up. Prove to me it does not exist. Prove to me that the buildings sit on the floor of City 7. If you've watched Macross 7 a dozen times, you need to take a closer look especially at the intro. That green ground type thing that you see? There's lots of metal below it. Enough for whatever plot devices get thrown in to do whatever they want.

By the way, Yoshi is welcome to come here and smack me around as much as he wants, but he better bring facts to do it with, not refusal to deal with facts instead of conjecture. I have no problem with being proven wrong, the key word being proven. That's something that Keith has, so far, been unable to do outside of the "Keith continuity" which only he lives in.

I wonder how much enjoyment he would get from M7 if he watched the real show instead of the one that plays in his mind.