Macross II now

[treatment]

Macross II & Orguss 02 are both equally low in my opinion. Both completely ignored what came before, wrote up their own histories which don't fit, and end terribly. For those unfamiliar with the Orguss TV series, let me tell you this simply. O02 implies that at the end of the TV series, a second dimensional bomb was set off to correct the dimensional crossovers, and because of that, there was still a world with leftover crossover elements. This does not happen in Orguss. What happeend was the two characters which were pushed into the future when the dimensional bomb went off (at their cause), traveled back in time to prevent the initial explosion from ever happeneing to begin with (in an excellent climactic end), that very fact in itself negates Orguss 02 from ever being able to exist.

As for Macross 7 & Macross II, stop being an ass. Macross 7 is superiro to II in every way. Story, animation, mecha, characters, every freakin' way. And like I said, Macross II's animation was far from "all that," especially when you get to the last 2 episodes where the budget was almost enitrely plled out. While Macross 7 may have repeating animation, character & mecha are always consistently high quality.

Why does Macross-II and Orguss-02 have to fit some sort of continuity-box before it can be watched and enjoyed with?

I mean, Macross Plus does not really have any other continuity-stuff with either the TV-series or DYRL, other than a rather irrelevant timeline-sequence.

Yet, Macross Plus is still a premiere-class anime.

--treatment--

Edited November 7, 2003 by treatment

[Radd]

I think Keith means, Macross Plus doesn't outright go against anything that happened before it in the timeline, where as Macross II and Orguss II (I'm taking his word here, never seen it) blatantly ignore continuity and break it at several points.

I'm inclined to agree. I like continuity in my favourite shows. I'm not a stickler about it, and I can handle redone versions of shows into movies, especially when they're so incredibly well done as DYRL?, but when I see a 'sequel' that looks like it was made by someone that hadn't even seen what had come before it...it doesn't win any brownie points with me.

[dna]

While Macross 7 may have repeating animation, character & mecha are always consistently high quality.

I like Macross 7, but don't fool yourself. I'm not saying it was AnimieFriend territory, but the show needed more money.

[Effect]

I have to agree. While I really enjoy Macross 7, high quality isn't a phrase I'd use to describe it. I still enjoy Macross II as well. It was actually the first Macross I viewed besides the Macross Saga in RT, so glad by that time I was used to reading subtitiles cause I turned the english version off pretty quick once I checked the subtitles to the actual dialgue.

[Druna Skass]

I really didn't care for the story all that much but I really liked the designs, especialy the VF-2SS SAP with the bits, and the VF-2AJ. The Marduk mecha like the Gilgameshes were pretty interesting, kind of had a Zeon look to them. I also like the character designs (Ishtar... ::drools:: ) and Silive's tomboy personality, she's almost exactly like my best friend.

What pissed me off to no ends about it was when the Macross was destroyed at the end, WHAT KIND OF SH!T IS THAT?!

Edited November 7, 2003 by Druna Skass

[Uxi]

I think Keith means, Macross Plus doesn't outright go against anything that happened before it in the timeline, where as Macross II and Orguss II (I'm taking his word here, never seen it) blatantly ignore continuity and break it at several points.

Err, almost all (if not all) of the stuff MII has problems with is the stuff that came after it (after MII was consigned to an Alternate Universe)...

[Effect]

Good point. When Macross II was released the only other Maross that had been released was the original TV series and DYRL. Everything else came later. So it isn't as if Mac II went against anything really.

[BaByLoN_G]

Japanese anime dubbed to English?

Are you Insane?

I prefer even a BAD subtitle , but with the original Japanese voices.

I remember my last disappoint. it was Spirited Away. It suposed to be the best Dubbing ever , the best techiniques, with a lot of good actors and dubbing directors. I liked in English ( the first time that I saw the movie) but then I saw the DVD again in Japanese and it was wonderful, almost like another movie.

Gaston

[Radd]

Umm, no, I meant that Macross II goes against what came before it, meaning SDF Macross, DYRL?, and Flashback 2012. For more on that, go read up the thread regarding the debate on the relationship between the Marduk and the Protoculture.

[Keith]

Oihan, you are the last person that should be calling "anyone" biased!

And Macross II did indeed contradict everything which came before it. Quick rundown:

-Marduk: Nowhere in Macross TV or DYRL

-Religion of the Aluse (see above)

-Valkyrie progression which still hasn't reached the VF-4 (despite the VF-4 already existing in both TV & Movie continuity)

-No long distance colonization programs, or hint of them

-No leaving Earth & moon space whatsoever apparently

-Inconsistent Macross ship design with "anything" which came before or after it.

-U.N. Spacy isnignia is entirley different

-No Zentradi ships in Earth's fleet, aside from hulks pieces together to make Macross Cannon ships.

-No mention of Protoculture

-Just where did that culture park come from? All of those monuments spontaniosuly survived the Zentradi bombardment? They weren't there in the TV series or DYRL, and we specifically saw that Hikaru & Misa toured the globe, just how did the freakin' great wall of China survive. How the hell did they move it?

-In 80 years they couldn't rebuild city's using anything more than downed Zentradi ships???

-Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity.

-Where was the city around the Macross? Where was the conert hall?

-Just what kind of half assed worksmanship rebuilds the Macross, addingi cannon sections in residential (legs) & carrier (ARMD carrier) area's, but makes it so that the freakin' thing doesn't even work! Seriously, ranodm energy bursts (super not safe!), & a cannon that destroys itself after one firing. Come on!

-If the random energy bursts were supposed to signify approaching Zentradi (ala "boobytrap), that's also not DYRL continuty, as that's specifically TV continuity.

-Just how did Ingus manage to rip whatever giant Zentradi head was attached to the mobile fortress, and implant himself there without killing the sihp?

I can go on & on, but I think you get my drift.

And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before.

It's what seperates the U.C. Gundam (0079 - Victory), from AU stuff

Edited November 8, 2003 by Keith

[makurosu]

Despite its contradictions, and some other problems I have with the OVA, I still like Macross II. It's a little tough to tolerate too often, but it's enjoyable when subbed. I enjoy the music, and the character designs by Mikimoto (I think?)

The main problems I have with the OVA are some of the mecha designs and the way they seemed to not progress much over a long period of time. I much prefer M+ and Macross 7 where there is still active exploration and design improvements. In Macross II the people were basically asleep at the wheel for years and years.

[nathan]

-Marduk: Nowhere in Macross TV or DYRL

So??? Neither are the Protodevlin or the Zolans.

-Religion of the Aluse (see above)

Your point? See above.

-Valkyrie progression which still hasn't reached the VF-4 (despite the VF-4 already existing in both TV & Movie continuity)

The 2SS is superior to the VF-4 looks, better in battloid mode, and is probably cheaper. And the UN Spacy of the MII universe hadn't been upgradeing thier mecha for years, as they were relying on the Minmay attack. They're what M7 will be in a 40 years.

-No long distance colonization programs, or hint of them

So??? the story was about what happened on earth. Not on some colony mission.

-No leaving Earth & moon space whatsoever apparently

Again So??? see above

-Inconsistent Macross ship design with "anything" which came before or after it.

Like the SDF-1 and the ARMDs never changed in the official Macross Universe?

-U.N. Spacy isnignia is entirley different

So? Macross Uniforms change with every new animation. Does that meen things can't change after 80 years???

-No Zentradi ships in Earth's fleet, aside from hulks pieces together to make Macross Cannon ships.

And there are in the 2040's Macross Universe? I don't remember seeing any. I believe they were all used in the Megaroad fleets or retired by then. And MII takes place 40 years after M7 in any universe which meens they're all in retired.

-No mention of Protoculture

So???

-Just where did that culture park come from? All of those monuments spontaniosuly survived the Zentradi bombardment? They weren't there in the TV series or DYRL, and we specifically saw that Hikaru & Misa toured the globe, just how did the freakin' great wall of China survive. How the hell did they move it?

Ever hear of replicas? And I doubt a VF could go around the world. Especially after all the combat manuevers it went threw before getting captured and then crashing on earth.

-In 80 years they couldn't rebuild city's using anything more than downed Zentradi ships???

So? Most of earths materials got blasted so why not use what's there?

-Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity.

So?

-Where was the city around the Macross? Where was the conert hall?

What do you need need a map for??? It's 70 years after SWI it's probably en demoed for something else.

-Just what kind of half assed worksmanship rebuilds the Macross, addingi cannon sections in residential (legs) & carrier (ARMD carrier) area's, but makes it so that the freakin' thing doesn't even work! Seriously, ranodm energy bursts (super not safe!), & a cannon that destroys itself after one firing. Come on!

Didn't the UN rebuild the SDF-1 to have it fire while still on the island before the ships first launching?? Wasn't alarge poertion of the island destroyed during that blast? And with the UN's control of the media in MII ofcourse they'd say it was just a random energy blast when it's really just the same booby trap signaling another enemy has defolded near earth. And who rebuilds a ship to let it rust in a lake???

-If the random energy bursts were supposed to signify approaching Zentradi (ala "boobytrap), that's also not DYRL continuty, as that's specifically TV continuity.

I alway's believed it was a sequal to both movie and tv universes. And at the time they were separate universes.

-Just how did Ingus manage to rip whatever giant Zentradi head was attached to the mobile fortress, and implant himself there without killing the sihp?

That one is a good question. Giant life support?? CPR??

And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before.

The same goes for prequals. They can't contridict what comes after. M0 rewrites Macross history.

As for Orguss and Orguss 02. Yes orguss 2 was a poor sequal but the ending of Oguss does leave room for a combined world. The whole point or Orguss was that many different possible earths were combined into one. The end of Orguss showed many possible futures. Not a single one. Meening that all the different possibilities had returned to thier own separate worlds instead of being cramed into a single one. There could still be a combined world as it's also a possible earth.

As for the stories of MII and M7. I liked both with the exceptions of Basara and guitar flight sticks.

[yellowlightman]

And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before.

It's what seperates the U.C. Gundam (0079 - Victory), from AU stuff

Not to get off topic, but there's a lot of messed up continuity in the UC Gundam stuff, Keith.

Stardust Memory being one of the more glaring examples.

[myk]

I mean, Macross Plus does not really have any other continuity-stuff with either the TV-series or DYRL......

Sure it does. We see the SDF with the DYRL style arms/ships, so I take that as enough evidence to say that 'Plus relates to DYRL more. Also, Isamu's flight suit screams DYRL....

Edited November 8, 2003 by myk

[Uxi]

The Marduk not being in SDF Macross or DYRL doesn't make their appearance a contradiction. SDF Macross and DYRL didnt' say the Marduk didn't exist (neither do M+ or M7, for that matter).

The religion of the Alus is something the Marduk had, so would be with them.

There's no reason the VF-4 couldn't have been in service and already retired to make way for the Valkyrie 2. Or they could have all been sent on the Megaroad(s)... or it could have had the F-22 Raptor treatment and had the orders continually downsized (though a bit more excessively towards where none were left). VF development was very... under-developed (heh) until AFTER MII was released (indeed not until Studio Nue came back into the game).

Nothing saying there WEREN'T long range colonization programs. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence by itself. That's completely illogical. The same with talk about the Protoculture that wouldn't have been relevent to the story being told.

It's 80 years later. There's plenty of time for differentiation in the insignia!

Um... you need to check your eyes on the Zentraedi ships in Earth's Fleet. There are numerous scouts ships and destroyers visible in Episode 5.

As far as Culture Park, they could have been replicas recreated for the express purpose of maintaining human culture... while more than a little far fetched it beats physically moving things like the Flavian Amphitheatre! As far as the destruction itself, look at the Earth Defense Grid thread and SEE the actual bombardment locations visible on Admiral Hayase's screen. It's not as thorough on screen as we were led to believe (and are still being told).

Slower rebuilding is tied without the ludicrous use of overtech like mass cloning.

Without being able to tell us HOW the Macross' cannon works (and what upgrades and/or variations of that technology would be possible with 80 years or research) you're not qualified to tell us if the leg extensions make snese or not or the deal with the random firing (which is pointed in a safe direction anyways).

Do we KNOW that removing the giant head kills the ship? Or that Ingus didn't have a technique to build the ship for HIM (he was wired into at after all as we saw on screen)? Or that it is NOT possible to surgically "transplant" Ingus in place of someone else? Nope.

You should keep going.

MII has its weak points but you haven't mentioned them yet.

[Keith]

So??? Neither are the Protodevlin or the Zolans.

Protodevilin are explained as being the source of the Supervision Army (a present that was pre-existing in Macross continuity), the Zolans explained as being another leftover Protoculture tampered race. What's the difference between them & the Marduk? They have fully explained backgrounds rooted in compatable Macross continuity. The Marduk do not.

Your point? See above.

The Macross in DYRL was a Meltran ship. In Macross TV a Supervision Army ship (though arguably could also be a refitted by the SA Meltran ship). There's absolutely no room in either version of events to be a mythical magical ship called "Aluse." Nor did its pre-crash form resemble the Zeppelin in Ishtar's visions of the Aluse.

The 2SS is superior to the VF-4 looks, better in battloid mode, and is probably cheaper. And the UN Spacy of the MII universe hadn't been upgradeing thier mecha for years, as they were relying on the Minmay attack. They're what M7 will be in a 40 years.

The VF-2SS is in no way superior to what we've seen of the VF-4, it's just a pointier re-draw of the VF-1. The implication of "VF-2" also denoting lack of progression past VF-3, ignoring the existence of the VF-4 in FB 2012 (also existing before Macross II).

So??? the story was about what happened on earth. Not on some colony mission.

Except that long distance colony missions would be more likely to come across & warn about any "Marduk" threat, be called in for re-inforcements while Earth was under seige, etc.

Again So??? see above

So? It completely contradicts the long distance colonization plan set forth at the end of SDF-M TV, & DYRL.

Like the SDF-1 and the ARMDs never changed in the official Macross Universe?

What is an ARMD carrier? IT'S A CARRIER! It's not a piece of the Macross Cannon!! How much sense does it make to stow Valkyries in a particle cannon? And no, they didn't "change" the Macross was rebuilt, that rebuild being what the Macross was in DYRL, and shown in the background in FB 2012. The Macross of Macross II uses the TV coloring scheme, a close design in appearance to the 2012 refit/DYRL design, but an entirely contradictiary internal system.

So? Macross Uniforms change with every new animation. Does that meen things can't change after 80 years???

Uniforms change, the insignia however has not, not even slightly.

And there are in the 2040's Macross Universe? I don't remember seeing any. I believe they were all used in the Megaroad fleets or retired by then. And MII takes place 40 years after M7 in any universe which meens they're all in retired.

Retired? Thosse ships are built for hundreds of thousands of years of service, they'd hardly "retire" in a mere 40 years. And yes, they were mostly sent out with the Megaroad fleets, but given that there's no sign of any long distance colonization plan in Macross II (hell, where was the factory satellite!), that isn't a viable excuse.

So???

"No mention of Protoculture."

Ever hear of replicas? And I doubt a VF could go around the world. Especially after all the combat manuevers it went threw before getting captured and then crashing on earth.

You doubt a Valkyrie can go around the world? You mean despite the fact that they have nearly unlimited fuel while in an atmosphere due to the fusion engines? And there was absolutely nothing stating those to be replica's, nor any real explanation for them whatsoever. Besides which, who would be left to remember how to make them all in such detail?

So? Most of earths materials got blasted so why not use what's there?

No they didn't, most of the pre-existing structures were "blasted," but that doesn't mean there weren't any building materials. Not to mention the fact that the factory satellite was there to help process, as well as the moon base. Society has built itself up much faster in real time than it has in Macross II's feeble 80 year attempt.

-Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity.

So?

So? So borrowing things that were exclusive to the TV continuity contradicts the theory that it's based off movie continuity. There were no downed Zentradi ships in DYRL, because they toasted the Earth during their initial attack. There was no Grand Cannon to take out a chunk of Bodolza's fleet & ground some on Earth.

What do you need need a map for??? It's 70 years after SWI it's probably en demoed for something else.

Why demo a fully functional "city," especially if building materials are so scarce, that Zentradi ships that aren't even supposed to be on the ground have been used for buildings? Yet again, it doesn't add up.

Didn't the UN rebuild the SDF-1 to have it fire while still on the island before the ships first launching?? Wasn't alarge poertion of the island destroyed during that blast? And with the UN's control of the media in MII ofcourse they'd say it was just a random energy blast when it's really just the same booby trap signaling another enemy has defolded near earth. And who rebuilds a ship to let it rust in a lake??

In TV continuity yes, this however doesn't happen in DYRL coninuity, for it is no longer a Supervision Army ship, with a Supervision Army boobytrap. As such, it doesn't take out part of the island (see DYRL Game intro). And let's even entertain that the Macross II would follow that part of the TV continuity, it would also have to follow the fact that the boobytrap was disabled (i.e. the Supervision Army OS) because it caused serious conflicts within all of the ships systems, creating such mishaps as the gravity system tearing away from the ship, a massive mis-fold, the fold engines to fold away from the ship, a huge island to fold along with the ship, and many other such system errors. Nothing so simple as a light "blast." They also shouldn't need such a system with a fleet & earth defense sat's tuned to detecting ship defolds (did you notice the big radar detection opps center in II?). And the Macross has never "rusted" in the lake. It's made out of freakin' hyper carbon.

I alway's believed it was a sequal to both movie and tv universes. And at the time they were separate universes.

And given the dramatic differences between the two, it's impossible to make a solitary sequel under those conditions.

That one is a good question. Giant life support?? CPR??

And to do it without the tentacles fighting off any intruders?

The same goes for prequals. They can't contridict what comes after. M0 rewrites Macross history

Macross Zero isn't finished yet, and as of yet, it hasn't re-written anything. Just filled in gaps we didn't know were there.

As for Orguss and Orguss 02. Yes orguss 2 was a poor sequal but the ending of Oguss does leave room for a combined world. The whole point or Orguss was that many different possible earths were combined into one. The end of Orguss showed many possible futures. Not a single one. Meening that all the different possibilities had returned to thier own separate worlds instead of being cramed into a single one. There could still be a combined world as it's also a possible earth.

No, Orguss's ending left room for no such thing. The specific effect of the phenomen Kei caused, cauased a localized corruption in the dimensional continuem (the specific crossed dimenisons are even shown in an episode, when they finally reach the Eiman homeground), that only entangled a few specific dimensions. Once Kei & Orsen took themselves out, they both prevented the ignition of the Dimensional bomb, and any future crossing of the worlds. There were no other potential realities, there were no other Kei's or Orsen's running around, there was no happy ending for them, just dreams of what would never be as they died.

This is why we only see two Tokoiten (Kei & Orsen) running around during the course of the series, no multiples of alternate realities. As such this is why there's no possible way for Orguss 02 to occur. That and the fact that not even the robots of Mu had the technology shown by those huge robots that were dug up. There were also no Eiman magical powers (Kei sure as hell didn't possess them either).

BTW, did you notice that one of the sketches in the Macross II R1 DVD is the same design used for the final bad guy in Orguss 02? Same production team using leftovers? Or mistake by Manga?

As for the stories of MII and M7. I liked both with the exceptions of Basara and guitar flight sticks.

Guitar flight sticks are just standard flight control's with a guitar in place of twin control sticks. Not very hard to understand. But try explaining the lack of reaction weapons in Macross II!

Sure it does. We see the SDF with the DYRL style arms/ships, so I take that as enough evidence to say that 'Plus relates to DYRL more. Also, Isamu's flight suit screams DYRL....

Until you realize that DYRL flight suits actually represent 2030 era U.N. Spacy fight suits, the ones in Macross Plus being at the tail end in that design phase.

Edited November 9, 2003 by Keith

[azrael]

Keith, may I?

The 2SS is superior to the VF-4 looks, better in battloid mode, and is probably cheaper. And the UN Spacy of the MII universe hadn't been upgradeing thier mecha for years, as they were relying on the Minmay attack. They're what M7 will be in a 40 years.

The VF-2SS is in no way superior to what we've seen of the VF-4, it's just a pointier re-draw of the VF-1. The implication of "VF-2" also denoting lack of progression past VF-3, ignoring the existence of the VF-4 in FB 2012 (also existing before Macross II).

I don't see how one could compare the VF-2SS with the VF-4 as we don't have specs on the VF-2. In terms of standalone weaponry...without SAPs, the VF-2 is severly handicapped to the VF-4.

Cheaper? We're talkin about an oh....70+ year economical gap. I don't see how that works as one being cheaper when the economics of the 2 might not even match. Hell, 10 bucks in the 1920s/30s bought you quite a fancy meal, IRC.

Stardust Memory being one of the more glaring examples.

*snip*

The same goes for prequals. They can't contridict what comes after. M0 rewrites Macross history

Macross Zero isn't finished yet, and as of yet, it hasn't re-written anything. Just filled in gaps we didn't know were there.

But considering that 0083 wasn't Tomino's idea and that the director's chair was switched half-way through the series, I don't see what's wrong with Kawamori at the helm of M0 and M0 being his idea....When you mix other people into the fold, things are bound to be messed up, which is why the UC world is screwed up in places compared to Macross (with the exception of MII).

Filling in gaps.....quite true. Let's look at the timeline....Humm....it's quite thin once we get to the 2008 (M0). I don't know about you but there seems to be something missing.

[nathan]

Protodevilin are explained as being the source of the Supervision Army (a present that was pre-existing in Macross continuity), the Zolans explained as being another leftover Protoculture tampered race. What's the difference between them & the Marduk? They have fully explained backgrounds rooted in compatable Macross continuity. The Marduk do not.

So? The Marduk are race of travelling conqueres what more do you need to know? And the origins of the Supervision Army along with the various fraction in the Protoculture civil war and the Zentraedi's role in it are verry muddied. And the Protodevlin didn't need an army. They just started draining Spiritia. It wasn't until M7 and Gepelnich's Spititia Farm plan that they needed an amy.

The Macross in DYRL was a Meltran ship. In Macross TV a Supervision Army ship (though arguably could also be a refitted by the SA Meltran ship). There's absolutely no room in either version of events to be a mythical magical ship called "Aluse." Nor did its pre-crash form resemble the Zeppelin in Ishtar's visions of the Aluse.

It's the Marduk's vision and Ishtar was wrong. DYRL's fiction and the Supervison Army have nothing to do with it.

The VF-2SS is in no way superior to what we've seen of the VF-4, it's just a pointier re-draw of the VF-1. The implication of "VF-2" also denoting lack of progression past VF-3, ignoring the existence of the VF-4 in FB 2012 (also existing before Macross II).

It's more manueverable, faster, better weaponry, and attack bits. I'd call that better. And it being VF-2 doesn't meen anything. The US reuses numbers all the time. For example there's the F4U-1 Corsair, F4D-1 Skyray, and F-4 Phantom II. Three fighters all with F4. The US also doesn't always number thier planes in order either.

Except that long distance colony missions would be more likely to come across & warn about any "Marduk" threat, be called in for re-inforcements while Earth was under seige, etc.

Maybe maybe not. It's easier to hit a target that standing still than one thats moving. Especially when your trying to wipe them out. And who's to say that some colony fleet didn't come across them and get wiped out? It would just be another missing colony fleet like the Megaroad 1.

So? It completely contradicts the long distance colonization plan set forth at the end of SDF-M TV, & DYRL.

DYRL? is fictional story in Macross so you can't contradict it. And as has been said before lack of evidence is no evidence. And again it was a story about earth not a colony fleet.

What is an ARMD carrier? IT'S A CARRIER! It's not a piece of the Macross Cannon!! How much sense does it make to stow Valkyries in a particle cannon? And no, they didn't "change" the Macross was rebuilt, that rebuild being what the Macross was in DYRL, and shown in the background in FB 2012. The Macross of Macross II uses the TV coloring scheme, a close design in appearance to the 2012 refit/DYRL design, but an entirely contradictiary internal system.

And you've seen blueprints of al three and compared them? The ARMDs have still changed over the years. The Partical cannon is located in the hollow area underneath so it could still very well carry fighters. As the city is now outside the ship, why can't partical cannons be added to the legs? And again who rebuilds a ship to let it rust in a lake?

Uniforms change, the insignia however has not, not even slightly.

Acutally they did change it. They added the Zentreadi symbol to it.

Retired? Thosse ships are built for hundreds of thousands of years of service, they'd hardly "retire" in a mere 40 years. And yes, they were mostly sent out with the Megaroad fleets, but given that there's no sign of any long distance colonization plan in Macross II (hell, where was the factory satellite!), that isn't a viable excuse.

Sure! That explains why Britia's ship was falling apart. The ships were forced to serve for hundreds of years as replacements couldn't be produced. If they could build replacements they'd all be using the Meltrandi style ships. And Either in UN Command in the MII universe obviously desided not to spend the money repairing a factory that was falling apart or it was destroyed in one of the other Zentraedi assaults on earth. Again no evidence is not evidence.

So???

"No mention of Protoculture."

Again SOOO??????? They're not relevant to the story.

You doubt a Valkyrie can go around the world? You mean despite the fact that they have nearly unlimited fuel while in an atmosphere due to the fusion engines? And there was absolutely nothing stating those to be replica's, nor any real explanation for them whatsoever. Besides which, who would be left to remember how to make them all in such detail?

We're talking a VF that's been threw combat and uncontrolled fold and a crash on a planet. They're lucky they're alive much less that the plane flys at all. There's also nothing stating that they weren't. They are a part of earths culture and past and somebody obviously thought they belonged in "Culture Park". There were lots of survivors with lots of records and pictures to make replicas. And who says they're exact? After near extinction close enough is good enough.

No they didn't, most of the pre-existing structures were "blasted," but that doesn't mean there weren't any building materials. Not to mention the fact that the factory satellite was there to help process, as well as the moon base. Society has built itself up much faster in real time than it has in Macross II's feeble 80 year attempt.

Earth is runnin our of resources now and recyclcing is getting more and more wide spread. With large desert wastelands and large craters what resources are left to use or recycle?? Very large crashed ships that are all over the place.

-Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity.

Not that you saw. It does not meen that there are none.

So? So borrowing things that were exclusive to the TV continuity contradicts the theory that it's based off movie continuity. There were no downed Zentradi ships in DYRL, because they toasted the Earth during their initial attack. There was no Grand Cannon to take out a chunk of Bodolza's fleet & ground some on Earth.

With millions of ships whos to say both typs of ships weren't present. We don't see them all. And design wise all of Macross has the same continuity problems. The TV designs were tossed out in favor of the movie designs yet TV designs still appear in M7. Also we never do see earth get toasted in DYRL? even with the video game animation. So we don't know what might have happend. We also don't know how many ships crashed during the fighting at the end.

Why demo a fully functional "city," especially if building materials are so scarce, that Zentradi ships that aren't even supposed to be on the ground have been used for buildings? Yet again, it doesn't add up.

Who's to say that in 80 years it was a fully functional city??? And with all the attacks from Zentraedi fleets and the cannon going off who's to say that the city wasn't moved for the civilians safety?

In TV continuity yes, this however doesn't happen in DYRL coninuity, for it is no longer a Supervision Army ship, with a Supervision Army boobytrap. As such, it doesn't take out part of the island (see DYRL Game intro). And let's even entertain that the Macross II would follow that part of the TV continuity, it would also have to follow the fact that the boobytrap was disabled (i.e. the Supervision Army OS) because it caused serious conflicts within all of the ships systems, creating such mishaps as the gravity system tearing away from the ship, a massive mis-fold, the fold engines to fold away from the ship, a huge island to fold along with the ship, and many other such system errors. Nothing so simple as a light "blast." They also shouldn't need such a system with a fleet & earth defense sat's tuned to detecting ship defolds (did you notice the big radar detection opps center in II?). And the Macross has never "rusted" in the lake. It's made out of freakin' hyper carbon.

I am talking about the TV continuity. They rebuilt the ship olny to have the gun fire and blast part of the island. If MII is a sequal to the TV series it makes sense for it to fire at it's enemies. We also don't see the SDF-1 being rebuilt in the video gam animation or the Zentreadi's arrival so that meens nothing.

The cannon fired with the arrival of the enemy ships. It's firing alerted the crew. Once the enemy is there and known there's no need for the gun to fire again until the next time the enemy suddenly appear. As the do in MII.

The cannon also had nothing to do with the gravity systems tearing away. That most likely happen do the inexperience of those who rebuilt the ship and the crew.

The fold misshap happended because the folded in an atmosphere. Something which shocked Britia and Exedol. Yet in the movie and M7 it happens all the time. Talk about continuity problems.

Who's to say the defence mechanism wasn't hard wired in? And again it only goes off with the appearance of new enemies and as the enemy was always in detection range after they arrived in the TV series and movie there was no need for it to go off again.

Uh-huh suure. That's why it looks so rusty sitting in the lake during the last episodes of Macross.

And given the dramatic differences between the two, it's impossible to make a solitary sequel under those conditions.

Which is why the story line is a bit weak.

And to do it without the tentacles fighting off any intruders?

If you destroy the tenticals how can they fight you?

Macross Zero isn't finished yet, and as of yet, it hasn't re-written anything. Just filled in gaps we didn't know were there.

It's rewritten the history of valkyrie development. Especially that of the VF-1.

No, Orguss's ending left room for no such thing. The specific effect of the phenomen Kei caused, cauased a localized corruption in the dimensional continuem (the specific crossed dimenisons are even shown in an episode, when they finally reach the Eiman homeground), that only entangled a few specific dimensions. Once Kei & Orsen took themselves out, they both prevented the ignition of the Dimensional bomb, and any future crossing of the worlds. There were no other potential realities, there were no other Kei's or Orsen's running around, there was no happy ending for them, just dreams of what would never be as they died.

At the end or Orguss 6 different earths depart leaving one behind. A Total of 7. Yet only three earths were involved. That leaves room for 4 other possibilities. And at the end we see Kei running with Mimsy, Mimsy holding her baby with Jabi watching, Olsen kissing Athena, Kei and his old girlfriend together, Mome and Kei together, Shaya with a male Emman (can't remembe his name), and Kai holding his child with Mimsy next to him. All but one of those are continuations of the combined earth. Now are they dreams or possible realities???? Obviously the creaters of Orguss 02 felt that they were future realities and with 4 other earths to play with there's room for both.

This is why we only see two Tokoiten (Kei & Orsen) running around during the course of the series, no multiples of alternate realities. As such this is why there's no possible way for Orguss 02 to occur. That and the fact that not even the robots of Mu had the technology shown by those huge robots that were dug up. There were also no Eiman magical powers (Kei sure as hell didn't possess them either).

We're only watching one earth. Whos to say what goes on with the others. See above. and who's to say what powers a desendent of an idioblast might have?? The creators of orguss 02 thought they'd have something special. Dimension continuity as well as time continuity leave a lot of room to do all sorts of things. And with 4 other earths how do we know those robots didn't come from one of them?

BTW, did you notice that one of the sketches in the Macross II R1 DVD is the same design used for the final bad guy in Orguss 02? Same production team using leftovers? Or mistake by Manga?

No I haven't. If you hate Macross II so much why do you have the DVD?

Guitar flight sticks are just standard flight control's with a guitar in place of twin control sticks. Not very hard to understand. But try explaining the lack of reaction weapons in Macross II!

Yeahh suuuure. Easy! Since MII's UN command was relying on the Minmay attack they saw no need to use reaction weaponry or build a new VF every couple of years.

Edited November 9, 2003 by nathan

[Radd]

I really gotta agree with Keith on this one. There really shouldn't be such arguments flying back and forth about stuff like the Marduk and the Supervision Army when it's clear that the Supervision Army is introduced and gets some history in SDF Macross. The Protoculture get even more of an explanation, with even more gaps filled in with the release of 'DYRL?'. With even what scant information is given on those two groups, the Marduk seem like a glaring continuity break, and no effort was given to work them into the existing continuity. Sure, you can come up with all sorts of fan speculation that might or might not put your mind at ease on some issues, but in the end there is no official explanation. They're not explained as being the Supervision Army, the Protoculture, or having any relation to either...when the U.N. Spacey should have a lot of information on that. Heck, Britai was head of the U.N. forces for a while. Exedole was in the employ of the Spacey, even. You'd think a Zentradi archivist would know about these Marduk. They knew about the Protoculture and the Supervision Army as early as the original series and the movie. Also, the fact that the Protoculture and the Supervision Army aren't mentioned is a big thing due to the Marduk's place in the story. It is highly relevant. I shouldn't need to explain why, it's obvious. The Marduk in Macross II take the place of the Protoculture and/or the Supervision Army. As such, their relation to those previously mentioned groups is very important to the Marduk's place in the Macross II universe, yet this information is not even brought up. The U.N. Spacey should have been like, "What's with these ships...they're like Zentran ships, but not...what's with that? Are they the Supervision Army? If so, why do their ships not look like the old Supervision Army ships? Are they the Protoculture? Let's get some Zentradi archivists in here, pronto." A big part of the actual OVA was about the Marduk, yet their reason for being, when they seem to contradict set Macross continuity, is never even mentioned.

And what's all this talk about 'DYRL?' being fiction so it can't be contradicted? 'Lovers Again' is supposed to be a sequel to DYRL? so it most certainly should hold true to that continuity. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. A sequel should follow the contiuty of it's predecessors, new elements should be explained or at least given some link to what came before (or after in the case of prequels).

I also agree with Keith that Macross Zero has not rewritten anything. It doesn't contradict anything from SDF Macross, DYRL?, or any other derivatives. It will probably, eventually, contradict the unanimated Macross chronology, but that hardly means much. I wholeheartedly agree with the George Lucas approach to 'what's canon and what's not'. Grok?

Where are you getting this information that the VF-2 is better than the VF-4? What are your sources? I've seen nothing that suggests this. As for the VF-2 looking better? I must disagree. Whether or not you like the battroid mode (I happen to think it's one of the best battroid modes Kawamori has come up with), it certainly looks more advanced than the VF-2's battroid, which is exactly how Keith described it. It's simply a sharper, more angular version of the original VF-1 battroid. It's Valkyrie Light, Brand X, it comes in a yellow box with black lettering that says 'VF-2SS'.

I do, on the other hand, agree with Nathan that just because no long range missions and colonization are mentioned this does not mean they don't exist in the Macross II universe. Also, keep in mind it's a big universe out there, while unlikely it's entirely possible that the Marduk just stumbled across Earth.

I gotta go with Keith on the rebuilt Macross. The ARMD carriers are just that, not huge guns. The cannons in the legs also made no sense, especially when it was shown that the city was still there. It didn't help that it wasn't drawn very well.

And about the VF being able to fly around the world, Nathan, go back and watch DYRL? again, that's all I'm going to say. Whether or not Hikaru and Misa did fly around the world is not even in question. You do yourself and your argument a disservice by questioning what's stated as fact in the movie.

[pfunk]

Holy Crap! this is turning into a VS thread. I watched the ending the other day, and I definatly like Mac + way better than mac II in animation, story line, attention to detail. Pretty much all the way around.;

[treatment]

Holy Crap! this is turning into a VS thread. I watched the ending the other day, and I definatly like Mac + way better than mac II in animation, story line, attention to detail. Pretty much all the way around.;

dude, Mac + is better than any other mecha-anime (macross or non-macross), except for DYRL.

[Druna Skass]

Ayyyeee....

Why can't people just watch something without having to discesct it down to it's molecular level and rigorusly analyse every bit of it...?

[Oihan]

Oihan, you are the last person that should be calling "anyone" biased!

And Macross II did indeed contradict everything which came before it. Quick rundown:

-Marduk: Nowhere in Macross TV or DYRL

-Religion of the Aluse (see above)

-Valkyrie progression which still hasn't reached the VF-4 (despite the VF-4 already existing in both TV & Movie continuity)

-No long distance colonization programs, or hint of them

-No leaving Earth & moon space whatsoever apparently

-Inconsistent Macross ship design with "anything" which came before or after it.

-U.N. Spacy isnignia is entirley different

-No Zentradi ships in Earth's fleet, aside from hulks pieces together to make Macross Cannon ships.

-No mention of Protoculture

-Just where did that culture park come from? All of those monuments spontaniosuly survived the Zentradi bombardment? They weren't there in the TV series or DYRL, and we specifically saw that Hikaru & Misa toured the globe, just how did the freakin' great wall of China survive. How the hell did they move it?

-In 80 years they couldn't rebuild city's using anything more than downed Zentradi ships???

-Those downed Zentradi ships were "TV" continuity, not Movie continutiy, there were no downed Zentradi ships on Earth in the movie continuity.

-Where was the city around the Macross? Where was the conert hall?

-Just what kind of half assed worksmanship rebuilds the Macross, addingi cannon sections in residential (legs) & carrier (ARMD carrier) area's, but makes it so that the freakin' thing doesn't even work! Seriously, ranodm energy bursts (super not safe!), & a cannon that destroys itself after one firing. Come on!

-If the random energy bursts were supposed to signify approaching Zentradi (ala "boobytrap), that's also not DYRL continuty, as that's specifically TV continuity.

-Just how did Ingus manage to rip whatever giant Zentradi head was attached to the mobile fortress, and implant himself there without killing the sihp?

I can go on & on, but I think you get my drift.

And yes, all "sequels" do have to fit into a nice little contiuty box, which Macross Plus does just fine. No contradictions to what came before, a nice follow through & continuation of the story, plenty of references (proper) to what came before.

It's what seperates the U.C. Gundam (0079 - Victory), from AU stuff

Lol Keith! We all know that II has holes when it comes to continuity. Still doesn't make it any less great than it already is. $$$ So it's a "carbon copy of DYRL"...it's still a different story all together...and a good one at that!

[Uxi]

With even what scant information is given on those two groups, the Marduk seem like a glaring continuity break, and no effort was given to work them into the existing continuity.

The absence of evidence is not evidence in and of itself. A logical fallacy if there ever was one. Besides the fact there was no reason in SDF Macross or DYRL to mention the Marduk as such, which assumes the Zentran would have known or cared about the details of who/what instead of it just being the mysterious and/or hated nemesis: "supervision army." Obviously Kawamori didn't intend for the Marduk to be the Supervision Army but he wasn't driving the bus then and despite what Keith says, the SA have hardly been "fully explained" and "rooted" in continuity. There are a couple vague references to them but hardly anythin definitive.

The whole DYRL/Supervision Army origins for the Macross is irrelevent to the stories of SDF Macross, DYRL, and even MII as it's never explored (or even necessary to explore) its origins in those stories. The characters simply react to the actions of Bodolza or Ingus. Ishtar thought the Macross was the Alus, but it obviously was not.

Keith is stuck on the Macross in MII having ARMD's as arms when it's clear they're not the same ARMDs from 80 years previously (nor should they be!). And it certainly could be possible and even reasonable to make the modifications (leg and arm extensions) for its operation without knowing the technical specifics for HOW the main cannon operates.

VF-2SS vs VF-4 is apples versus oranges. Whether one is better or not is irrelevent. The best piece of equipment is rarely chosen on its virtues alone... things like price, economies of scale, ease of training, etc are all just as important though less than the things that really make the decisions for militaries: politics. Both within the military organization and those outside controlling the military itself (be it democracy, republic, monarchy, or flat dictatorship). As far as VF-2 being "after" VF-4... well... currently the US Main Battle Tank is the M1 and sub models (M1A1, M1A2, M1A1d, M1A2 SEP, etc). Yet older tanks had higher numbers... M-4 Sherman. For that matter there was the F-86 (?) in the '50s and somewhere things got "reset" (F-4 on up).

Any colonies would be irrelevent to MII. The whole New Macross thing wasn't invented till after MII so it's not relevant to the discussion. In MII's timeline, without the ridiculous use of overtech (who's enormous ramifications could not be easily ignored like they have been so far in Macross' official continuity), colony ships would be very few and far between... and it's quite likely they would have been deemed wasteful. For all we know, there could have been well under 10 colonies launched in that 80 years if even that many. Even if they hadn't been deemed wasteful, there's no reason the Marduk would necessarily be bothered by them. Nevertheless they could have been under attack at the same time Earth was having the noose tightened during the events of MII as seen in the anime. Humans have never built ANYTHING that lasts hundreds of thousands of years. I really doubt the Megaroad I would be expected to have that life expectancy. Rust is clearly visible in the anime... hypercarbons or not!

US insignia has changed within the last 80 years, u can be sure of that. We don't put big stars on our armored vehicles anymore. Low visibility didn't exist. Tiger teeth are not put on interceptors. Even kill marks aren't en vogue anymore. And the US has added 2 stars to its flag in less time than 80 years. The insignia can't change in 80 years to MII without Kawamori because they haven't changed in half that with Kawamori? Nonsense.

Edited November 10, 2003 by Uxi

[Keith]

Those who wish to waste time trying to rationalize Macross II are more than welcome too. I've made my devistating attacks showing why it just doesn't work, do with them what you will. Those of us who know there's no way to rationalize it are satisified with those arguments.

And irregardless of it being 80 years, there's no sense to the change in the U.S. Spacy insignia, none whatsoever. We're not talking about large star vehicle markings, we're talking about a base military recognition symbol.

[Oihan]

Macross II still 0wnz!!!

[Renato]

Have about a 1/2 hour left of the movie.

Dont care for it too much except for the "good guy" mecha, the zentradi mecha sucks. Im watching the English version and except for the main charictors voices, it sucks. I love the VF-2ss. Ishtar is pretty good to look at with those child bearing hips. Is it me, or did they have a completly diferent designer for the enemy mech', they look like large heads flying around going through a mid aged balding crisis.

IMHO

The Macross II english-dubbing is still one of the most horrible english-dubbing ever done in all of anime. You will most likely will hate it when they made Ishtar sing the "Mou ichido - love you" song in English. Talk about tragedy and travesty.

Better re-watch it in japanese-dub subtitled-form. The japanese-voices clearly are infinitely better and gave the series some needed decency.

--treatment--

All of the songs were in japaniese with english sub, I dont know why this was, but none of the songs are in english. Also, when the Zentradi spoke, it was in japaniese with sub's. This must be a diferent version?

Don't be silly, Billy.

When the Zentradi speak, they speak in Zentran. Did you not "get" the whole point of the scene with Hibiki, Ishtar and the translator-earring thing?

[nathan]

Supervision Army and the Protoculture.

As it's been said before they're not relevant to the story nor have they been completely fleshed out. Also the Zentreadi only knew what they had been told and what they had encountered. So if the Protoculure did not tell them about the Marduk and the Zentraedi that encountered the Marduk were not able to send a distress message than how would Britia or Exedol know about them?

And what's all this talk about 'DYRL?' being fiction so it can't be contradicted? 'Lovers Again' is supposed to be a sequel to DYRL? so it most certainly should hold true to that continuity. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. A sequel should follow the contiuty of it's predecessors, new elements should be explained or at least given some link to what came before (or after in the case of prequels).

If we go with the current continuity with DYRL being a movie in the Macross universe than it's fiction and pointless to compare against it. If we go with DYRL? as a separate universe (the way it used to be) Then MII is a sequal but like MII DYRL? gives more questions than answers. Why is this ship near mars being attacked and by whom? What happened to Earth? What the heck is that underwater city and why hasn't anybody disconvered it before? who was it that Misa talked to and why wouldn't they talk to her? The problem with DYRL? as with MII is that they try and put too much into too short a time span and it leaves holes in the story and there's no feel for the characters. That's why the official continuity uses the TV series story even though the movie designs are now "official".

I also agree with Keith that Macross Zero has not rewritten anything. It doesn't contradict anything from SDF Macross, DYRL?, or any other derivatives. It will probably, eventually, contradict the unanimated Macross chronology, but that hardly means much. I wholeheartedly agree with the George Lucas approach to 'what's canon and what's not'. Grok?

According to Eganloo and the Macross Compendium, who's word I take more than Keith's, the VF-0 has contradicted the VF-1's history or at least force the history to be rewritten to fit in the VF-0. The VF-1 was the first variable fighter. Now the VF-0 was always the first. Which elimiates the need for the VF-X and the VF-X-1 which exist in the animation. Macross. It also calls into question why all other VFs are called Valkyies which is now the second VF. And the excuse of the VF-0 being top secret is flimsy at best. Even Shin knew about it while he was still flying F-14s. Also I find it hard to believe that Global a mear ship captain would know about the Grand Cannon but not about the development of his main fighter.

And saying that the written history hardly meens much ist quiet frankly stupid. It's were most of the information about the Protoculture and the Supervision Army exists. Without it very little about eithe would be known.

Where are you getting this information that the VF-2 is better than the VF-4? What are your sources? I've seen nothing that suggests this. As for the VF-2 looking better? I must disagree. Whether or not you like the battroid mode (I happen to think it's one of the best battroid modes Kawamori has come up with), it certainly looks more advanced than the VF-2's battroid, which is exactly how Keith described it. It's simply a sharper, more angular version of the original VF-1 battroid. It's Valkyrie Light, Brand X, it comes in a yellow box with black lettering that says 'VF-2SS'.

There the animation. All the animation I've seen indicates that the VF-2 is better. The VF-2 also exists 70 later than the VF-4. I would asume that there would be some advancements during that time.

And yes the VF-2 and VF-4 are apples and oranges economicaly speaking but here's something to consider. The VF-2 has a simpler transformation sequence. That would make it easier to manufacture and maintain which would make it less expensive to purchase and operate. And while the VF-4 does have greater onboard weaponry it cannot make use of FAST Packs (so far) which limit's it's firepower, range, and armor, and it's usefulness. And again it exists long after the VF-4 would have been retired.

Besides who's to say that the VF-4 was successful in the MII universe? Not every VF is a success. The VF-3000 wasn't successful.

The only thing left to compare is it's looks and that varies with each individual.

I gotta go with Keith on the rebuilt Macross. The ARMD carriers are just that, not huge guns. The cannons in the legs also made no sense, especially when it was shown that the city was still there. It didn't help that it wasn't drawn very well.

Like Uxi said.

And about the VF being able to fly around the world, Nathan, go back and watch DYRL? again, that's all I'm going to say. Whether or not Hikaru and Misa did fly around the world is not even in question. You do yourself and your argument a disservice by questioning what's stated as fact in the movie.

You know I did just that. I looked at my video tape and my LD and show them going around the world. What we see is that they hover (not fly) threw

a desert waste land on one day and over a large body of water the next before arriving at the protoculture city. That's it. No world cruise. So we don't know how far they traveled or how much of earth got toasted. Now could somebody please explain how Hukaru dug the VT-1 out of the hole Misa put it in?

Those who wish to waste time trying to rationalize Macross II are more than welcome too. I've made my devistating attacks showing why it just doesn't work, do with them what you will. Those of us who know there's no way to rationalize it are satisified with those arguments.

HAHAHAHA!!!! Thank you Keith! I needed the laugh!! Your "Devestating" attacks are nothing but nitpicking.

And irregardless of it being 80 years, there's no sense to the change in the U.S. Spacy insignia, none whatsoever. We're not talking about large star vehicle markings, we're talking about a base military recognition symbol.

Well we all know they made a deadly sin by not asking you for your opinion and they will roast in hell for it but it isn't your call to make. And like it's been said Symbols do change.

[dna]

It started out as such a nice, innocent thread...

[bandit29]

Macross II in a nut shell:

Annoying but good looking characters

Ugly mechs probably the worst of the Macross universe

Decent music

rehashed story of DYRL

Last time I watched it I fell asleep but back when it first came out I liked it alot. Its more enjoyable than Macross 7... but thats not saying much lol

Just stick with the classics

Macross DYRL and Macross Plus

[Wes]

Yeah, OK, how about this: MII is crap, M7 is crap - happy now?

btw, Keith, about the "culuture park" thing, I remember them saying it was a big recreation to remind people of that area of their roots, or whatever. It wasn't like that episode of Futurerama, where they were on the beach with all those historical landmarks because an old NY major stole them all.

[Agent ONE]

Yeah, OK, how about this: MII is crap, M7 is crap - happy now?

...

At least M2 isn't embarasing.

I am still getting emails from my coworkers with the subject line, "listen to my song" and attached pictures of Barney, George Michael, Yanni, and Elton John. I don't think I will ever live the M7 tragedy down.

[dna]

It's like Las Vegas. Those aren't the REAL pyramids you know...

Edited November 10, 2003 by dna

[Wes]

Yeah, OK, how about this:  MII is crap, M7 is crap - happy now?

...

At least M2 isn't embarasing.

I am still getting emails from my coworkers with the subject line, "listen to my song" and attached pictures of Barney, George Michael, Yanni, and Elton John. I don't think I will ever live the M7 tragedy down.

That...that's really sad. Maybe you can tell them about homestarrunner.com, then you'll get emails of "TROGODOR, THE BURNINATOR!" instead.

Behold his magisty.

[Effect]

It's like Las Vegas.  Those aren't the REAL pyramids you know...

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't City 7 have something very similar to the Culture Park in Macross II? That or the opening credits is lying. Its not crazy for something like this to be built at all, especially after the devastation the Earth suffered.

Edited November 10, 2003 by Effect