Thoughts on Moe

[Einherjar]

I really didn't see moe getting as big as it is. While it's popular in certain circles there are others who are really getting sick of it as a cliche of anime. The reason? This blogger has begun to count the ways:

The Cooking Moe

The Retarded Moe

Thoughts?

[wolfx]

Where have u been? Moe has been big since the Card Captor days.

Besides i dun regard the examples given (cooking and retard?) in anyway moe even. The blogger is just generalising fan fetishes. To him it would seem anything that caters to fan fetish classifies as moe, which in anime can range from cat ears all the way to mecha parts appended to girls.

Moe , shortened from moeru which translates literally to "burning" refers to the burning feeling in your heart when you see a character. A sensation that can only be described as a feeling that "Makes you wanna hug her and go AWWWWWWW!!!" Examples given above do not qualify and thus are not moe. That said a character that isn't normally moe can turn really moe in just one episode, i.e. Klan Klan sitting in Michel's cockpit. MOE~.

[VFTF1]

I always prefered Curly - and could never understand why they called him that, despite the fact that he never had any hair to curl... In fact, it got so bad, that whenever I saw Shemp, my first thought was "that's Curly" - and then I was like - no - but - it's Shemp. Curly is the one with no hair and not the one with Curly hair; despite appearances...

In any event - I think it's really wierd that there's this huge controversy over Moe. I mean, I personally never liked him, I never trusted him. For all I know, he had me set up and had my brother, Angel Fernandes, killed....oh...wait...exit Scarface mode...

Anyways - the wierdest thing, to me, is the comparissons that people make between cute girls and Moe. I mean, Ranka is Moe? Come on. I'm very open minded, but give me a break. Ranka is a girl, not a middle aged guy, she has green and not dark hair, and her hair style is a bit more refined than a 30s bowl cut. One could, I suppose, argue that she is clumsy - but I'm not really sure of that - I mean - she's more shy and timid and this makes her sometimes do clumsy things (like when she hit her head on the mike when bowing at Miss Macross)...But to go from that to being Moe...?

Moe's antics were always forced. The guy looked constapated all the time - and maybe that was his character - but still - nothing like Ranka.

Anyways; cute anime girls are not Moe. I have yet to see an argument made which could come close to proving otherwise, yet people keep bringing this up as if it were a legitamite train of thought or something.

Wierd.

Pete

[sharky]

Oh, a wise guy, eh? Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck...

[Gubaba]

I always prefered Curly - and could never understand why they called him that, despite the fact that he never had any hair to curl... In fact, it got so bad, that whenever I saw Shemp, my first thought was "that's Curly" - and then I was like - no - but - it's Shemp. Curly is the one with no hair and not the one with Curly hair; despite appearances...

In any event - I think it's really wierd that there's this huge controversy over Moe. I mean, I personally never liked him, I never trusted him. For all I know, he had me set up and had my brother, Angel Fernandes, killed....oh...wait...exit Scarface mode...

Anyways - the wierdest thing, to me, is the comparissons that people make between cute girls and Moe. I mean, Ranka is Moe? Come on. I'm very open minded, but give me a break. Ranka is a girl, not a middle aged guy, she has green and not dark hair, and her hair style is a bit more refined than a 30s bowl cut. One could, I suppose, argue that she is clumsy - but I'm not really sure of that - I mean - she's more shy and timid and this makes her sometimes do clumsy things (like when she hit her head on the mike when bowing at Miss Macross)...But to go from that to being Moe...?

Moe's antics were always forced. The guy looked constapated all the time - and maybe that was his character - but still - nothing like Ranka.

Anyways; cute anime girls are not Moe. I have yet to see an argument made which could come close to proving otherwise, yet people keep bringing this up as if it were a legitamite train of thought or something.

Wierd.

Pete

"Heh heh. Moe is their leader." - Homer Simpson.

But really, as others have said, I don't understand why everyone's getting furious about moe girls all of a sudden. C-Ko was the original moe girl, and she was infinitely more annoying than any of her descendants.

[Einherjar]

But really, as others have said, I don't understand why everyone's getting furious about moe girls all of a sudden. C-Ko was the original moe girl, and she was infinitely more annoying than any of her descendants.

There's nothing wrong with moe girls, but the author's point is probably that it's being used too much in modern anime to appeal to a the audience and is, perhaps, mutating.

[sharky]

There's nothing wrong with moe girls, but the author's point is probably that it's being used too much in modern anime to appeal to a the audience and is, perhaps, mutating.

Yeah, I agree with the author. I hate it when anime appeals too much to the audience. I would rather watch anime that doesn't try to appeal to the audience very much at all.

Edited January 17, 2009 by sharky

[Vifam7]

"Heh heh. Moe is their leader." - Homer Simpson.

But really, as others have said, I don't understand why everyone's getting furious about moe girls all of a sudden. C-Ko was the original moe girl, and she was infinitely more annoying than any of her descendants.

The problem I think is not moe. The problem is that too often moe is combined with - unoriginal predictable stories, boring setups, stereotypical cardboard characters, rehashed plot devices, cliche comedy routines, etc. etc.

[thegunny]

Glasses girl rules!!!!!

[Gubaba]

Yeah, I agree with the author. I hate it when anime appeals too much to the audience. I would rather watch anime that doesn't try to appeal to the audience very much at all.

You've watched "Urotsukidoji," right? I found that to be entirely unappealing.

Glasses girl rules!!!!!

OH HELLS YEAH!

[yellowlightman]

Yeah, I agree with the author. I hate it when anime appeals too much to the audience. I would rather watch anime that doesn't try to appeal to the audience very much at all.

Says the guy with a Ranka avatar...

The origins of moé certainly go back a decade or two, but the current fad is pretty revolting. Not just for the sexualization of young girls, but because season after season they're churning shows with no creative value, except to pander to moé fanboys and get them to buy hug pillows and whatever other cr*p.

[Einherjar]

With stuff like this overused in the industry I understand why some people are sad about the state it's in. Although quality material is still being made, it's usually overshadowed by this only because the staggering amount, appeal, and profit. By comparison, though, it can be worse in foreign markets. Like in my part of the U.S., whenever I go to an anime section in a store most of the series being released have moe blobs written all over them as the prominent quality. I thought licensing companies here were supposed to filter crap like this, not sell out to the masses (or who they think are the masses).

[Vifam7]

With stuff like this overused in the industry I understand why some people are sad about the state it's in. Although quality material is still being made, it's usually overshadowed by this only because the staggering amount, appeal, and profit. By comparison, though, it can be worse in foreign markets. Like in my part of the U.S., whenever I go to an anime section in a store most of the series being released have moe blobs written all over them as the prominent quality. I thought licensing companies here were supposed to filter crap like this, not sell out to the masses (or who they think are the masses).

Personally I think they're wrongfully listening to the vocal minority.

[VFTF1]

The origins of moé certainly go back a decade or two, but the current fad is pretty revolting. Not just for the sexualization of young girls, but because season after season they're churning shows with no creative value, except to pander to moé fanboys and get them to buy hug pillows and whatever other cr*p.

Even if the premise of your statement is correct- and it very well might be (I just don't know enough about general anime productions to have an opinion one way or another), then consider for a moment that if indeed the majority of stuff is sub-par and simply catering to nit-wits via sexualized young girls in order to bring in lots of money - then this is how companies get the financial basis to sometimes go out on the edge, take a risk, and produce something that has high quality but might not garner huge revenues.

Second of all - I don't think you can blame the sexualization of young girls on anime; if anything, young girls are to "blame" for considering themselves sexual at younger and younger ages - if we want to talk about it in terms of "blame."

Although - I wouldn't put it in those categories to begin with. First of all, I think that there is a distinction between cute, raunchy, mindlessly pornographic, proper, improper and a host of other "fine lines" in between. I just refuse to believe that "all" anime is generally homogenous in its' treatment of young girls and sexualization thereof.

Maybe I'm watching the wrong (or right?) anime - but I honestly haven't noticed anything over the top anywhere, and I was pretty confused by people who complained about the "over-sexualization" of Ranka in Macross Frontier. I just don't see it as being a problem. Young girls often dress and act just like what we see in these anime - they are very into fashion, and looking good, and they have crushes on older guys.

This is what real life looks like. I hardly think it's necessary to cast dispersions on anime for reflecting tendencies in the real world - and often doing it with sarcasm, gusto, humor etc etc.

We live in a world where sexuality and sexualization have become regular, normal everyday banal and completely normal. I don't see anything bad in this; particularly if the matter is portrayed in an intelligent way.

And final point:

There is nothing sexy about young "sexy" girls in sub-par anime plots. It would be like porn movies without the actual porn scenes, or Transformers The Movie "Sexy Cut" - where all you'd get to see were the scenes with Meghan Fox - and nothing else.

There's nothing attractive in it. So it's really hard for me to believe in this image of a totally worthless lot of anime which only caters to "young sexy girl" lovers and doesn't have anything going for it in terms of plot. Unless the "moe girls" are the plot?

In which case it would be like soft-core hentai or something - and could just be viewed as that, instead of being lumped together with other anime that aspires to be something more.

I dunno - I just get the feeling that this whole issue is overblown.

Pete

[yellowlightman]

Second of all - I don't think you can blame the sexualization of young girls on anime; if anything, young girls are to "blame" for considering themselves sexual at younger and younger ages - if we want to talk about it in terms of "blame."

No.

[eugimon]

Let's just speed this conversation up:

blah blah unfounded rhetoric on sexualization of minors

blah blah ethnocentric moralizing

blah blah ethnocentric demonizing

blah blah mod warning

blah blah out right flame war

blah blah

thread lock.

[yellowlightman]

Yeah, why even have discussions on the internet anymore, at this point.

[eugimon]

Yeah, why even have discussions on the internet anymore, at this point.

cuz the mods here have shut down this thread every time it's spawned? Because it's impossible to talk about this subject without considering the society and culture that spawned it. That having a bunch of westerners who know jack sh!t about asia other than "top ramen" and "anime" is disingenuous at best and usually ends up as racist diatribes at worst? Because EVEN if you manage to get enough people who know what they're talking about together inevitably the discussion will become a comparison between perceived western and eastern cultures and quickly become a political debate. Because we can't even have a conversation about fraking boats without some apeface turning into a mindless worthless debate over semantics. And because answering a page long essay with "no" isn't really a "discussion".

[yellowlightman]

Because we can't even have a conversation about fraking boats without some apeface turning into a mindless worthless debate over semantics.

There's no need to call me names, just because I happened to point out someone's ridiculous (and incorrect) statement.

And because answering a page long essay with "no" isn't really a "discussion".

Sorry, I was hoping that by rereading it he might realize what a dumb comment it was, considering it's just a small step away from the old "she was dressed sexually, so she deserved to get raped" line of thought.

You people.

[Gubaba]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what girls who can't cook or think, but are exceedingly adorable have to do with sex. "Moe" doesn't necessarily mean "Loli porn."

Can we PLEASE stay on topic without this devolving into a "Tsk! Tsk! Japan is so f***ed up" conversation...? Or is that too much to ask?

[yellowlightman]

Can we PLEASE stay on topic without this devolving into a "Tsk! Tsk! Japan is so f***ed up" conversation...? Or is that too much to ask?

Probably because it goes hand in hand with the topic of moé.

But hey, it's a different country so if you say any aspect of it is bad that's being unable to "understand" a foreign culture.

[VFTF1]

Sorry, I was hoping that by rereading it he might realize what a dumb comment it was, considering it's just a small step away from the old "she was dressed sexually, so she deserved to get raped" line of thought.

I can see where you might get this impression from my previous statement; but my whole point was to argue that it's too much of an oversimplification to say that the sexualization of minors is a one-way street independent of the actual behavior of real minors. In other words, just like it would of course be wrong to say "she was dressed sexually so she deserved to get raped" it would also not be imprudent to say "if she hadn't dressed that way, she wouldn't have been risking so much." Is this good? No. Shouldn't women have the right to dress however they want and feel safe? Yes. Is there unfortunately sometimes a co-relation between our risky behavior and bad things happening to us - unfortunately yes.

If I parade around a busy urban stret flashing lots of cash - I increase my chances of getting mugged. Should I have the freedom to do it? Yes. Should the city be responsible for providing a safe environment for people where they can go without fear? Yes. Should people in general not mug other people? Of course. Will flashing wads of money around in a busy urban center possibly put me at higher risk? Unfortunately yes.

Does stating this mean that I am therefore saying that I "deserved" to get mugged? No. Just like no body "deserves" to get raped.

Besides - you seem to have missed the part where I wrote that it's not ok to simplify "sexualization of minors" and immediately equate it with sex-exploitation of minors. There's a difference between cute, teen-love and the like and pornography.

Teenages and young people also have the right to have their love stories told, to have their emotions but into story-form, to have stories made that cater to them and their world. This does not immediately mean that everything is just merely "sexualization of minors." Nor does it mean that people who advocate for the artistic expression of the sexual and romantic world of young people and teenagers is ipso-facto a pedophile or simply out to "sexualize" minors - who, again - are sexually active from early ages usually independent of anime, movies or any other medium.

It would be - and is - more productive to say Anime X is terrible because it only sexualizes minors - look at episode a, b and c - look at the bad plot, look at (list bad things) - all this does is sexualize minors and it's just a cheap jerk off fantasy --- rather than saying "anime in general has too much sexualization of minors."

Finally - try looking at it this way:

Doesn't this whole "too much sexualization of minors in anime" argument remind you of the "too much violence in cartoons" argument?

Both lines of argumentation are - in my opinion - ridiculous. Why? Because immorality has a place in fiction - it is the proper place for it, in fact.

The word "obscene" - in the original latin - means "Meant for the Scene [aka State/aka Theater/aka fiction drama]. It was considered that some things are too immoral to be allowed to be shown or done anywhere EXCEPT in WORKS OF FICTION which is their proper place.

So even if there was an anime called The Adventures of Pedophile Man and his Giant Phallic Robot - I would still not see the existence of this kind of anime as some huge outrage.

REAL acts of violence, impolitness, and so forth and so on are terrible. The portrayal of these things in fiction is not - one ought not get so bent out of shape over it.

And again - if you're going to argue that sexualization of minors in anime is a terrible prevelent thing - then I think you have to also accept that anime has too many "killer robots" in it and argue equally vehemently against all this catering to mecha-porn fanatics - and what's with all the "everyone dies" or "Earth is destroyed" and massive deaths of populations and so on and so on and so on...

And in the end - we'll only be able to watch the Smurfs and Seseme Street - because everything else is just too unsanitary?

Pete

[sharky]

Says the guy with a Ranka avatar...

I thought my sarcasm was pretty clear.

[eugimon]

There's no need to call me names, just because I happened to point out someone's ridiculous (and incorrect) statement.

Sorry, I was hoping that by rereading it he might realize what a dumb comment it was, considering it's just a small step away from the old "she was dressed sexually, so she deserved to get raped" line of thought.

You people.

It'd funny that you'd bemoan the death of discussion on the internet and yet you take one line, put it out of context and then answer it with snobbery. Tell me, did you have fun at your kettle convention? did any pots show up?

[yellowlightman]

It'd funny that you'd bemoan the death of discussion on the internet and yet you take one line, put it out of context and then answer it with snobbery. Tell me, did you have fun at your kettle convention? did any pots show up?

Apologies for ignoring the ridiculous comments you made and instead just focusing on your personal attack against me. Next time you make a statement about westerners not being able to "understand" asian culture, I'll try and give it more attention. But considering you found words like "Japanophile" offensive in previous threads, I expect you won't deal well with hearing any sorts of legitimate criticism about Japanese culture.

Edited January 18, 2009 by yellowlightman

[Wes]

Because rumor has it Miura won't work more on Berserk because he wants to do Moe-stuff SCREW MOE!!

[Gubaba]

Because rumor has it Miura won't work more on Berserk because he wants to do Moe-stuff SCREW MOE!!

Could you please elaborate...?

[Vostok 7]

cuz the mods here have shut down this thread every time it's spawned? Because it's impossible to talk about this subject without considering the society and culture that spawned it. That having a bunch of westerners who know jack sh!t about asia other than "top ramen" and "anime" is disingenuous at best and usually ends up as racist diatribes at worst? Because EVEN if you manage to get enough people who know what they're talking about together inevitably the discussion will become a comparison between perceived western and eastern cultures and quickly become a political debate. Because we can't even have a conversation about fraking boats without some apeface turning into a mindless worthless debate over semantics. And because answering a page long essay with "no" isn't really a "discussion".

Welcome to the internet, been here long?

So does this mean that I can't find Cooking Mama hot? I'm confused.

Vostok 7

[wolfx]

To those who hate moe, i'll just say stop watching japanese anime and watch western anime like Avatar or something. Because for the next few decades, moe WILL be invading your anime. Anime isn't made to cater to western tastes so even if you moan and groan about it, its not gonna change much when the target audience wants more moe. Actually its such a staple in anime nowadays that I barely notice it anymore. I just started watching Toaru Majutsu No Index where there's a loli nun and loli teacher in it and I go meh. But i'm sure some people are going to have a problem with this and feel like a dirty pedo while watching it and condemn fans of said show as dirty pedos.

As for the blogposts in the 1st post, I regard them as un-researched claims designed to troll on the internet.

[Agent ONE]

So do you guys cary a breakfast cereal for guys with syphilis?

[bob joe mac]

My opinion on moe is I find it annoying but doesn't destroy the show the MASSIVE amount of porn thats made because of the moe characters is what disturbs me

case in point Lucky star... funny as hell show ENTIRE cast is "moe" and holy poo look at the amount of porn!! THAT is what disgusts me. The new moe, which is make a 18 year old look 10, just gives people a reason to justify their lust for... for lack of a better term children.

I had never even heard of moe until last year. When I watched Haruhi... which had that red headed girl called moe... ok so moe is clumsy ditz. But now "moe" seems to have become this creepy loli-fetish and seems to be staying there. Once again I'll point at lucky star which had a ton of high school students look like they were 12...

EDIT- From wikipedia

In response to the otaku fetishization of cute female characters, Japanese animator Hayao Miyazaki stated:

“ It's difficult. They immediately become the subjects of lolicon fetishism. In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them as lovely as possible. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict (such heroines) as if they just want (such girls) as pets, and things are escalating more and more. "

Edited January 19, 2009 by bob joe mac

[Gubaba]

My opinion on moe is I find it annoying but doesn't destroy the show the MASSIVE amount of porn thats made because of the moe characters is what disturbs me

case in point Lucky star... funny as hell show ENTIRE cast is "moe" and holy poo look at the amount of porn!! THAT is what disgusts me. The new moe, which is make a 18 year old look 10, just gives people a reason to justify their lust for... for lack of a better term children.

I had never even heard of moe until last year. When I watched Haruhi... which had that red headed girl called moe... ok so moe is clumsy ditz. But now "moe" seems to have become this creepy loli-fetish and seems to be staying there. Once again I'll point at lucky star which had a ton of high school students look like they were 12...

EDIT- From wikipedia

In response to the otaku fetishization of cute female characters, Japanese animator Hayao Miyazaki stated:

“ It's difficult. They immediately become the subjects of lolicon fetishism. In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them as lovely as possible. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict (such heroines) as if they just want (such girls) as pets, and things are escalating more and more. "

Again, I'm not sure why people are saying this is "new." Hasn't anyone seen Project A-Ko? C-Ko can't cook, she's a total ditz, and everybody in the cast loves her. If that's not moe, what is?

[bob joe mac]

Again, I'm not sure why people are saying this is "new." Hasn't anyone seen Project A-Ko? C-Ko can't cook, she's a total ditz, and everybody in the cast loves her. If that's not moe, what is?

Because like I said moe isn't that anymore its this weird loli fetish. go to any anime board and just take a glance the clumsy fool characters aren't moe the little loli characters are the ones called moe

[Morpheus]

At the present, most people (some of which I known IRL) consider Moe = Loli, so I don't like the term so much, but I prefer Tsundere character

[Gubaba]

Because like I said moe isn't that anymore its this weird loli fetish. go to any anime board and just take a glance the clumsy fool characters aren't moe the little loli characters are the ones called moe

Then I'm confused. Is moe clumsy cute characters, or is it loli porn? And if it's the latter, why was everyone saying that Ranka was moe...?