The MW Automotive Thread Quattro SpecV

[reddsun1]

Pretty much ALL of the manufacturers "borrow" from each other. That's a given. Some just do it more so than others. As far as the Big 3 are concerned: is it any wonder they're circling the toilet bowl?

Ford: can pretty much call them "The Great Pretender." Save for the Mustang, they seem to be perfectly content with just copying from others what they seem to think is "in," for most of their other lineup.

-Ford Fusion [pre '10 facelift]: Think Cadillac CTS from the front, mid '00s C-Class Benz from the rear. If you've been behind them next to ea other in traffic, you'll see what I mean.

-Ford Flex: stretched Scion XB

-'10 Ford Taurus SHO: looks like they just traced out the overall sihlouette/proportions of a Chrysler 300, and filled in their own styling touches

Both Ford and GM's Aussie divisions have shown for years that front-engined RWD sedans can be 'hot-rodded' enough to make for exciting performance oriented models, in the Falcon XR8 and Commodore SS-V series [aka Pontiac G8]. But does Ford bring us the gonzo RWD sedan from Oz? Nooooo--they continue to push what's 'PC,' with wheezy blow-dried V6s and FWD. And GM lets the G8 die with Pontiac--and a well-deserved death it was too, after so many years of passing off tacky, injection-molded-plastic-clad sh*tboxes as 'performance cars' on the motoring public.

Edited August 28, 2009 by reddsun1

[areaseven]

And GM lets the G8 die with Pontiac--and a well-deserved death it was too, after so many years of passing off tacky, injection-molded-plastic-clad sh*tboxes as 'performance cars' on the motoring public.

Actually, only the G8 name dies with Pontiac. The car will be rebadged next year as the Chevy Caprice (yeah, that kinda makes less sense than the current Impala).

[reddsun1]

Actually, only the G8 name dies with Pontiac. The car will be rebadged next year as the Chevy Caprice (yeah, that kinda makes less sense than the current Impala).

I thought that was supposed to be the case as well--to the betterment of Chevrolet's offerings. But it appears that won't happen after all: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/16/from-th...-spawn-chevrol/

Unfortunately, you can't sure stupid. No matter how many times you bail them out, it would seem that GM doesn't want to pull thier collective heads out of their arses, be saved from their own ineptitude.

I have 2 family members that own Chevrolet vehicles; an HHR, and a Malibu. And from the experience I've had riding/driving in either of those, I can say that I just don't like them. If the materials finish and ergonomics on the new Camaro are anything like its brethren, I don't think I'd want one even if I did have the disposable $$$ to pick one up. There are some design cues that needed to stay in 1968. I still say whoever designed that interior is an ass. Not a real driver. Putting vital gauges where you'd have to take your eyes completely away from the road? down on the center console? And when you look at that dash/steering wheel just right, it looks like a robot face, frozen in a big, dumb, sh*t eating grin staring back at you...

[Agent ONE]

I know Agent ONE won't trade in his Elise for an upgrade, but this should be pretty tempting. Weighing in at just 1962 lbs., the Lotus Exige Cup 260 sports a stiffer suspension, lots of weight-saving materials and a supercharged 1.8 liter inline-4 that generates 257 bhp. All this results in an acceleration of 0-100 km/h (0-60 mph) in 4.1 seconds.

2010 Lotus Exige Cup 260

I think that spoiler is awful, but probably necessary considering the weight and power of the car. I have already ordered the same supercharger and airbox, so my Elise will have the same power as this car. I have been eyeing that supercharger for months.

[Whamhammer]

"Contours, end cosmetics, ergonomics...and that's just on the surface. Everyone has borrowed from the Japanese. Even with the engines, you see it more and more. I'm a machinist and a card carrying UAW member who works for Caterpillar, my father in law works for Chrysler in the engine plant, and he can tell you some stories. For instance, when they were designing the Neon in the 90's, they brought in a Honda Civic, and a Nissan Sentra and began dismantling them, trying to get a better understanding of 4 cyl. engines and fuel economy. When the Viper's engine was being built, they had 2 different Mercedes engines, a Ferrari engine, and a couple 3000GT/Stealth engines laying around, just figuring out how to take the best from all three. I guess finding nothing wrong in that is a matter of perspective.

I asked him about the Challenger, and he replied "Don't waste your money". For the record, he drives a Maxima. "

Mind you, my opinion is from someone who has been with Toyota for over fifteen years.Toyota has very rarely come up with an original idea themselves especially in styling, especially in the Lexus brand. They have borrowed so shamelessly especially from the European brands and fall short. When they havent ,it typically ended up in an over-conservative boring design with suspensions to match (with very few exceptions) and price points that arent competitive. How many full size American (as well as the Nissan Titan) trucks did Toyota tear apart in attempts to build the last two itterations of the Tunda? How much quality controll went into the design of the 5.7 V8 cams that would snap into two ? And the six speed automatics that would puke thier torque converters? The Sequioa , the same thing. The second generation GS and just about all of the LS projects might as well have Mercedes royalty payment envelopes sitting in the glovebox.

What works for them (as well as some of the other import companies)? Distance from the U.S. . They were able to make cars and and tool themselves up for a (major) U.S. market and able to watch and learn with minimal interference from the U.S. government. They saw the damage the Warren Act had put upon the domestic manufacturers as well as other regulations here. They were able to take advantage of things such as the U.A.W.'s protection of the carbuerator plants and workers that wouldnt work with G.M. to upgrade to M.P.F.I. in the Rochester groups plants , and only relented in letting them produce crappy throttle body injection fuel systems. G.M. had to utilize Bosch for th T.P.I. systems in the Corvette and F bodies. The E.P.A. almost immediate mid-eighties change over requirements in some plants forcing them from oil to water based paints. How many vehicles were being sabotaged on the prodction line just before a strike happened? That did alot for makinging build quality look good.

The imports were able to come over and build here with thier alredy established unions with agreements before ground even broke on the plants choosing more convienient products that they could afford to drop making from over here and build back in thier outside of U.S. plants if need be. They were able to skirt a vast amount of the problems the domestic car makers had on production side. Which is good business, and they are succeeding. I dont blame them at all for that. And I'll be the first to say that domestics did make bad choices as well, they shouldve worked harder on the more compact car designs for the U.S. market, but if you have a market that goes over 50 percent buing S.U.V.'sits kinda hard to not work more on your s.u.v market. What doomed the U.S. companies and save the otehrs was that the U.S. products didnt enter competition in Europe with at least double if not more the cost for a gallon of gas / When the price jumped they didnt have an adequate answer . But of course when the price dropped again what did the American buyer go back to? S.U.V.'s! It even caught Toyota off guard with thier hardcare revamp of their S.U.V. lines , they took a bath! They still cant sell a Sequoia.

Giving kudos to Jaguars line is kind of ironic, being that Ford royally saved thier arses when they bougt them and invested heavily in the upgrade of Jaguar to make them what they are today. Thier current success is due to Ford, not Tata. Tata's influence will take some time to prove success or failure. (And Id much sooner drive a Jag than a Lexus or Mercedes.) .

I really feel it was sad that G.M. and Chrysler were dumb enough to go to the government for bailouts, there was no way on this Earth that they coulve avoided bankruptcy. The government wasted our taxpayer money on behalf of controll of a major private industry (that they have no business involving themselves in). I wouldve preferred to see them go intobankruptcy on thier own and possibly fail with the chance of someone else buying them and rebuilding them. Of course with th way the laws are set up, who would want to start a new car company in the U.S.. This being said , as long as the U.S. governemtn and the unions have controlling stakes in Chrysler and G.M. , I will not be buying a new vehicle from either.

[Whamhammer]

"And when you look at that dash/steering wheel just right, it looks like a robot face, frozen in a big, dumb, sh*t eating grin staring back at you... "

I think the best description as of yet was that the new Camaros steering wheel appearance was that of Elton John in the late seventies/ early eighties.

I agree the fuel gage shouldve been in the main cluster, but I'd hardly go as far as saying to oil pressure , temp and volt gages are "vital" how many cars dont even have those? The Camaro does have warning lights in easy line of sight, should there be a problem. Also the center console gage cluster is an option. I still think the 3900 pound wiehgt (V8 model)is the most aggregious problem the design has, it (at least) needs to lopp of 300 pounds to be worth it.

"-Ford Fusion [pre '10 facelift]: Think Cadillac CTS from the front, mid '00s C-Class Benz from the rear. If you've been behind them next to ea other in traffic, you'll see what I mean."

Is this kinda like the late eighties early ninties Mercedes having the front end appearance of a Chryser K car? Or the Late nineties Mercedes front end having the appearance of an early seventies Camaro?

Also , the XB has always had the appearance of a half pint Isuzu Trooper II

[Gaijin]

I have 2 family members that own Chevrolet vehicles; an HHR, and a Malibu. And from the experience I've had riding/driving in either of those, I can say that I just don't like them. If the materials finish and ergonomics on the new Camaro are anything like its brethren, I don't think I'd want one even if I did have the disposable $$$ to pick one up. There are some design cues that needed to stay in 1968. I still say whoever designed that interior is an ass. Not a real driver. Putting vital gauges where you'd have to take your eyes completely away from the road? down on the center console? And when you look at that dash/steering wheel just right, it looks like a robot face, frozen in a big, dumb, sh*t eating grin staring back at you...

1st thing: That is the concept interior. The steering wheel, gauges, are different.

2nd thing: The pack gauges are an option: they don't contain fuel or temp or anything "vital;". Those are in the main.

I agree the location is poor; but none of the ones located there are vital or anything you'd be looking at constantly.

3rd. The materials fit and finish are nothing like the Malibu and HHR. Try sitting or driving the new Camaro. It's the most refined ponycar ever.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

Actually, only the G8 name dies with Pontiac. The car will be rebadged next year as the Chevy Caprice (yeah, that kinda makes less sense than the current Impala).

It's not going to happen. Killed as soon as Lutz said it. Too bad.

[David Hingtgen]

A bit OT but cool: Papa John found his original Camaro. http://www.papasroadtrip.com/ (if you eat their pizza, you know the story from the box)

In appreciation, if you showed up in a Camaro, you got a free pizza: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164162

[areaseven]

A bit OT but cool: Papa John found his original Camaro.

Already posted a couple of pages ago. Link.

[reddsun1]

Let the pony car wars begin anew!

"Now you can transform your 2008-2009 Dodge Challenger into a serious one-off street machine with attitude, or an all-out race car with the ability to put serious rubber under all four corners.

Our innovative Composite Flared Front Fenders, Three-Dimensional “Billboard” Quarter Panel Extensions, and Aerodynamic Front Canards add the perfect balance of styling and functionality.

By adding six inches (that's right, SIX inches!) to the width of the Challenger, the GROUP 2 Wide Body package can easily accommodate an 11.5” width rim in the rear and a 10” width rim up front. The GROUP 2 package can handle anything up to a 315-series tire. The re-arched wheel wells visibly lower the vehicle while retaining adequate ride height so you don't have to sacrifice ride quality and handling.

GROUP 2 Challenger Package Includes:

Left and Right Composite Wide Front Fenders

Left and Right Composite “Billboard” Wide Rear Quarter Panel Extensions

Left and Right Front Spoiler Canards

Left and Right Front and Rear Fenderwell Extensions

20X10” Front + 20X11.5” Rear 3-Piece USW Forged Wheels

Z-Rated Pirelli P-Zero Rosso Tires, 315/35 rear + 275/40 front"

"The ROUSH 2010 427R™ Mustang will be the first in the lineup of new ROUSH® 2010 Mustangs to have a ROUSHcharger® installed which boosts the horsepower to 435 and offers 400 lb.-ft. of torque. This is the first time that ROUSH has been able to offer a supercharged vehicle at the launch of a new body style.

The 2010 427R™ includes an appearance package which is comprised of several components such as a new front fascia and front splitter, rear fascia, side splitters, and a three-piece rear wing...This package also includes an all-new suspension package to greatly enhance the handling of the vehicle and turn that daily commute into a slalom course."

"Hennessey's first order of business was to take a 2010 Camaro SS and massage its 6.2-liter LS3 V8 to help it pump out mo' powa. They do this by first giving the pony car a little belt-driven boost to the tune of 6 psi, helping it achieve a 2010 Shelby GT500-besting 562 horsepower and 557 lb-ft of rotational fortitude. These numbers will reward owners with a 4.1 second 0-to-60 MPH time and a run down the 1320 in just 12.1 seconds at 119 mph.

Rounding out the package is a Hennessey-designed appearance package with 20-inch rollers and Hennessey badging throughout the interior. Expect to fork over roughly $59,500 for one of the 500 Texas-tuned ponies."

Edited September 2, 2009 by reddsun1

[David Hingtgen]

and Aerodynamic Front Canards add the perfect balance of styling and functionality.

Left and Right Front Spoiler Canards

The airplane buff in me wants to kill whoever decided to use the term "canard" for anything on a car, especially in combination with the term "spoiler".

[Whamhammer]

I still dont undertand how any of the three can show thier faces after relesing such portly pony cars (Camaro 3,900 pnds Mustang Cobra/GT500 3900 pounds Challenger SRT-8/RT 4,000-4,100 pounds). I've been thinking to ways to lighten my 3,500 pound Ram Air WS-6 because I thought that it weighed too much, and then I looked at these guys! Yeeesh!

[areaseven]

For one thing, it looks like VW is actually listening to Porsche enthusiasts. Otherwise, this is just great news.

Volkswagen Board Votes to Ax Porsche Cayenne, Panamera

[Gaijin]

I still dont undertand how any of the three can show thier faces after relesing such portly pony cars (Camaro 3,900 pnds Mustang Cobra/GT500 3900 pounds Challenger SRT-8/RT 4,000-4,100 pounds). I've been thinking to ways to lighten my 3,500 pound Ram Air WS-6 because I thought that it weighed too much, and then I looked at these guys! Yeeesh!

Most cars today all weigh more than their few years ago counterparts. Look at nearly every nameplate and every model. All are larger and weigh more, plus have added electronics and safety systems. It's not just the 3 above.

[Whamhammer]

Most cars today all weigh more than their few years ago counterparts. Look at nearly every nameplate and every model. All are larger and weigh more, plus have added electronics and safety systems. It's not just the 3 above.

I seriously doubt it would take too much to drop 150 pounds off of any of those models mentioned above in the design process. I dont remember hearing that the Camaro uses composite materials for the hood and decklid for instance.

[Vince]

I seriously doubt it would take too much to drop 150 pounds off of any of those models mentioned above in the design process. I dont remember hearing that the Camaro uses composite materials for the hood and decklid for instance.

no matter how good the manufacturers make their cars, someone will feel the need to mod them. so why not make them at the lowest cost, and then sale the after market 'improvement' parts? make more this way.

a 18'' spare weight about 50 lbs already, so it is easy to lost a couple hundred lbs, for mine, the couple weight about 500 lbs ( I think..) less than the soft top, and the base version weight even less (I think.. again).

[Gaijin]

I seriously doubt it would take too much to drop 150 pounds off of any of those models mentioned above in the design process. I dont remember hearing that the Camaro uses composite materials for the hood and decklid for instance.

You can shave off weight that way. But cost will enter. And cost will almost always win out. Especially for a mass market production car.

[Whamhammer]

You can shave off weight that way. But cost will enter. And cost will almost always win out. Especially for a mass market production car.

The hood and decklid on my WS-6 are both composites (not to mention the doors and fenders). If they could do it on the Fourth Gens' theres no reason that they couldnt economically apply them to the fifth gens (especially with the continuing use of these materials on the Corvette). Plus the weight savings would come into play with C.A.F.E. regulations.

[Gaijin]

The hood and decklid on my WS-6 are both composites (not to mention the doors and fenders). If they could do it on the Fourth Gens' theres no reason that they couldnt economically apply them to the fifth gens (especially with the continuing use of these materials on the Corvette). Plus the weight savings would come into play with C.A.F.E. regulations.

Actually, it was a factor. The composite way for the F bodies were expensive. It was not economical at all.

I had a 4th gen Firehawk. Doesn't change the factor of cost. Steel is cheaper. They want to save money. Zeta was to be used as the base so...there we are.

I'm not discounting the benefit, I'm explaining the why they didn't.

Btw, my 99 'Hawk weighed in at 3340. It was a Formula w/cloth.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Gaijin

[myk]

I still dont undertand how any of the three can show thier faces after relesing such portly pony cars...

Because those pony cars look good and people all over the world love the designs and want to own them. As cars increase their safety and technological equipment they will become heavier, portlier, more unwieldly, but that's the price we pay for a state of the art car that still manages to turn heads. And besides, the new cars may be fat but they still perform. I'm not up to speed on how well they perform, but I'm willing to bet they can run with if not best any of their predecessors.

True, the F-cars and other performance cars of their generation were lighter and fast, but that was sooooooooooooooo 90's and we can't live in the past forever. And even if we could, do we really want to? Let's face it, 4th 'Gen F-cars, their rival Mustangs and all the other cars of that era were CRAP cars and we know it. That's right, I said it, those cars were overpriced, unreliable, badly built piles that are now coveted by the mullet crowd. Now, I love F-cars as much as anyone else (I own 2), but really now, yesterday's performance cars are the ones that can't show their faces when it comes to being compared to the modern muscle machines that roam the streets today.

Out with the old, in with the new. Trust me, it's better this way...

Edited September 6, 2009 by myk

[David Hingtgen]

Have I mentioned how often I agree with myk?

[Whamhammer]

Because those pony cars look good and people all over the world love the designs and want to own them. As cars increase their safety and technological equipment they will become heavier, portlier, more unwieldly, but that's the price we pay for a state of the art car that still manages to turn heads. And besides, the new cars may be fat but they still perform. I'm not up to speed on how well they perform, but I'm willing to bet they can run with if not best any of their predecessors.

True, the F-cars and other performance cars of their generation were lighter and fast, but that was sooooooooooooooo 90's and we can't live in the past forever. And even if we could, do we really want to? Let's face it, 4th 'Gen F-cars, their rival Mustangs and all the other cars of that era were CRAP cars and we know it. That's right, I said it, those cars were overpriced, unreliable, badly built piles that are now coveted by the mullet crowd. Now, I love F-cars as much as anyone else (I own 2), but really now, yesterday's performance cars are the ones that can't show their faces when it comes to being compared to the modern muscle machines that roam the streets today.

Out with the old, in with the new. Trust me, it's better this way...

I had an 89 T/A and I have an'02 WS-6 T/A and really havent had that much problems with them, and usually when I did it was because someone didnt fix something right and was a repeat problem (like mistaking a hub bearing noise for diff gears being shot,glad ext warr covered that one). For the price they werent that bad, usually stuff that was near their performance capabilities with twice the price. And I saw just as much problems reliability-wise with Camry's as I did with F-Bodies (I worked in both G.M. and Toyota franchises) and Camrys are supposed to be such a great reliable vehicle. I think most of the pony cars bad rap is that people wanted a much more comfortable ride out of them, which youre just not going to get (even though they did get much better). Not the best car ever, sure crap Id argue against that. And no, Ive never had a mullet.

[areaseven]

- Impressive on the straightaway (0-60 in 4.1 sec), but rubbish on handling (0.83g).

[areaseven]

This is one very nice ride. The Aston's not too bad, either.

2009 Aston Martin Vantage Hellvelyn Frost by MW Design Technik

[Whamhammer]

- Impressive on the straightaway (0-60 in 4.1 sec), but rubbish on handling (0.83g).

Who did they have driving that thing? Motor Trends "Pony Car War" test had a stock Camaro SS skidpad of .90g and I believe Car and Driver had it at .88g! The supercharger adds some weight, but not that much! Did they screw with the suspension purely for straightline? That 12.2 quarter is pretty good though. That skidpad cant be that far off from the rest without something being really off.

[areaseven]

Who did they have driving that thing? Motor Trends "Pony Car War" test had a stock Camaro SS skidpad of .90g and I believe Car and Driver had it at .88g! The supercharger adds some weight, but not that much! Did they screw with the suspension purely for straightline? That 12.2 quarter is pretty good though. That skidpad cant be that far off from the rest without something being really off.

Edmunds has some rather amateurish test drivers. A lot of cars they test are below the results of other magazines. I once saw a Mustang test and they were .4 seconds behind Car and Driver's numbers.

Also, they tested the Dodge Challenger SE and they got 8.2 seconds on their 0-60. Now, I know that particular model is garbage, but Edmunds made it too obvious with their slow driver.

[Whamhammer]

Edmunds has some rather amateurish test drivers. A lot of cars they test are below the results of other magazines. I once saw a Mustang test and they were .4 seconds behind Car and Driver's numbers.

Also, they tested the Dodge Challenger SE and they got 8.2 seconds on their 0-60. Now, I know that particular model is garbage, but Edmunds made it too obvious with their slow driver.

I hope they dont pay those guys.

[areaseven]

McLaren is back - this time, with a less expensive supercar that's built from scratch and not from any other firm. Priced between £125,000 - £175,000, the MP4-12C is powered by McLaren's 3.8 liter twin-turbo V8 that generates 600 bhp and is mated to a seven-speed Seamless Shift dual-clutch gearbox (SSG). Can't wait to find out its performance numbers.

2011 McLaren MP4-12C

[areaseven]

Mercedes-Benz has released photos of their successor to the SLR McLaren. The SLS AMG is powered by a naturally-aspirated 6.3 liter V8 that generates 571 bhp and 479 lb-ft torque. Acceleration from 0-60 is 3.8 seconds and its top speed is 197 mph. Estimated price is €177,310 (approx $258,620), but expect it to go for more when it hits showrooms.

2010 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG

[badboy00z]

This is one very nice ride. The Aston's not too bad, either.

2009 Aston Martin Vantage Hellvelyn Frost by MW Design Technik

All the Aston models look the same. I have a very hard time to tell the difference between them all. Lol.

[chen]

The new Mclaren looks nice if a tad derivative, kinda lack a mash up of the new Lotus Evora and a Gallardo but I guess all car companies are coming to the same conclusion when it comes to aerodynamics, air doesn't care what part of the world your from. That new Mercedes is a big disappointment, it has some nice design touches and the concept is cool but it seems like it's design lacks a cohesiveness. Mercedes and it's new fascination with it's retro/modern design aesthetic is hit and miss and sometimes feels a little forced. Performance wise I'm sure these cars will be incredible.

Edited September 12, 2009 by chen

[Whamhammer]

Mercedes-Benz has released photos of their successor to the SLR McLaren. The SLS AMG is powered by a naturally-aspirated 6.3 liter V8 that generates 571 bhp and 479 lb-ft torque. Acceleration from 0-60 is 3.8 seconds and its top speed is 197 mph. Estimated price is €177,310 (approx $258,620), but expect it to go for more when it hits showrooms.

That price is a real shame, last I heard, no one bought the SLR McLarens becuase the price was so high that the buyer could buy a true exotic brand for not much more (Ferrari, Lambo, etc.) instead of a Mercedes. I'd like to see that model do well and bring a gullwing revolution. But hey, its only money.......

2010 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG

[reddsun1]

McLaren is back - this time, with a less expensive supercar that's built from scratch and not from any other firm. Priced between £125,000 - £175,000, the MP4-12C is powered by McLaren's 3.8 liter twin-turbo V8 that generates 600 bhp and is mated to a seven-speed Seamless Shift dual-clutch gearbox (SSG). Can't wait to find out its performance numbers.

2011 McLaren MP4-12C

The upcoming McLaren is a bit "meh." Could almost be mistaken for an Ascari...

[emajnthis]

The upcoming McLaren is a bit "meh." Could almost be mistaken for an Ascari...

That's actually what i thought it was until i read the post. The new SLS or whatever the hell it is looks like ass, Mercedes cars are getting uglier every year.