Height of the Zentradi

[Mr March]

Indeed. Which leads to another line of thought; how separate were the Zentradi and Meltrandi, really? Even with a strong anti-social culture, separation by gender and artificial conception, it's clear the Zentradi are just as functional as any human. You can't tell me some Zentradi grunt didn't get it into his head to meet up with that cute Meltrandi technician behind the micloning bay on some occasion or another. Mixed Zentradi/Meltrandi operations are obviously nothing unusual, so there had to have been some kind of interaction at times.

Besides, you can tell by the way Britai and Lap Lamiz verbally sparred that she was just bitter over their breakup

[Bri]

I'm sure the high command prevented Zentradi/Meltradi *interaction* with extreme punishment. Like any Zentradi grunt caught would have to serve on a Meltran cruiser during *that* week of the month...

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'm sure the high command prevented Zentradi/Meltradi *interaction* with extreme punishment. Like any Zentradi grunt caught would have to serve on a Meltran cruiser during *that* week of the month...

Worst punishment I can think of...

Maybe, since they had never been introduced to culture (Which seconds instinct), and they were trained from... Emergence from the cloning chamber... to be warriors and nothing else, circumventing instinct (Which lie dormant), as we can sometimes see in humans. (Reduction or removal of instinctive fears, such as acrophobia and arachnophobia, fears designed to protect.)

Then, after being introduced to culture, the reproductive instinct was kicked into place. (And this, too, can happen. The mind recognizes something always there, but stored behind normal knowledge.) I mean, just because a Zentran soldier's seen a Meltran, doesn't mean he's SEEN a Meltran. KnowwhatImean? (I'm trying REALLY hard to keep this Work Appropriate...) Seeing something like a kiss, which is recognized by the brain as a sexual sign, could and probably would reawaken one's reproductive instinct, and all that comes with it... Kamjin, tuck it into the waistband, k?

That's my spiel...

[taksraven]

It'd add to the irony of Klan's "genetic defect" if she's an Amazon among Meltrandi when macronized. That's my theory.

Miriya's head is the size of one of Klan's breasts.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

As many have implied, and as much as I applaud the effort and thought that went into this thread, I think figuring out Zentradi scale based on the rather haphazard animation of SDFM is an exercise doomed to failure.

In other words, let's forget all about this and start another "Which girl will Alto end up with?" discussion.

I agree, but instead of the "Which girl will Alto end up with?", discussion, shouldn't we have a new "What was the mystery fighter seen at the end of episode 5 of Frontier?", because that is a discussion that truly goes nowhere. :lol: OR we should have another "What happened to all the VF-0's and why weren't they seen after Macross Zero?" discussion, which was also very productive in working out that the producers of that series were retconning.

Taksraven

Edited January 8, 2009 by taksraven

[JB0]

Worst punishment I can think of...

Maybe, since they had never been introduced to culture (Which seconds instinct), and they were trained from... Emergence from the cloning chamber... to be warriors and nothing else, circumventing instinct (Which lie dormant), as we can sometimes see in humans. (Reduction or removal of instinctive fears, such as acrophobia and arachnophobia, fears designed to protect.)

Then, after being introduced to culture, the reproductive instinct was kicked into place. (And this, too, can happen. The mind recognizes something always there, but stored behind normal knowledge.) I mean, just because a Zentran soldier's seen a Meltran, doesn't mean he's SEEN a Meltran. KnowwhatImean? (I'm trying REALLY hard to keep this Work Appropriate...) Seeing something like a kiss, which is recognized by the brain as a sexual sign, could and probably would reawaken one's reproductive instinct, and all that comes with it... Kamjin, tuck it into the waistband, k?

That's my spiel...

Yeah. There were significant social barriers to making culture.

The zentradi acted like little kids afraid of the cooties when they saw their first kiss.

And Kawamori help those poor goons on the factory satellite that had to look at Komillia. EXTREME baby-phobia.

...

*chuckle*

Never thought of it before, but... the pregnancy must've been one hell of a culture-shock to Millia.

Millia: "So wait... not only is there a MINI-ME GROWING IN MY STOMACH, you're telling me that it's gonna PUNCH IT'S WAY OUT MY-"

Doctor: "Nononono, there will be no punching. It won't even have any real motor control for quite some time after it's b-"

"THAT DEMONSPAWN JUST KICKED ME IN MY STOMACH! FROM THE INSIDE! OH GOD! IT'S TRYING TO GET OUT!"

"Nononono, that's perfectly normal. It's just-"

"YOU SAID THEY COULDN'T MOVE! MAX, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!"

[sketchley]

Indeed. Which leads to another line of thought; how separate were the Zentradi and Meltrandi, really? (...)

If I remember SDF:M correctly, the three spies (AKA Lolicon) not only were aware of Miriya, but knew of her battle performance. If memory serves, they were in awe of meeting her, but also afraid of getting their a$$e$ kicked.

[Gubaba]

I agree, but instead of the "Which girl will Alto end up with?", discussion, shouldn't we have a new "What was the mystery fighter seen at the end of episode 5 of Frontier?", because that is a discussion that truly goes nowhere. :lol: OR we should have another "What happened to all the VF-0's and why weren't they seen after Macross Zero?" discussion, which was also very productive in working out that the producers of that series were retconning.

Taksraven

I'm way ahead of you, dude:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=28712

As for the topic at hand, I was always under the impression that while the male and female Zentradi in SDFM deifnitely communicated, and often worked together of missions, there was no personal contact between them. Sure, Laplamiz and Britai talked via monitor, but they were never on the same ship together. Likewise, the Lolicon Three were carried to the Macross by Millia, but they never actually met her face to face.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Hm... For some reason, I can't think of anything besides giant Meltran boobs... I'm seriously drawing a blank here...

[Killer Robot]

As for the topic at hand, I was always under the impression that while the male and female Zentradi in SDFM deifnitely communicated, and often worked together of missions, there was no personal contact between them. Sure, Laplamiz and Britai talked via monitor, but they were never on the same ship together. Likewise, the Lolicon Three were carried to the Macross by Millia, but they never actually met her face to face.

That's about what I figured too. Given there seem to have been strict rules against males and females ever being on the same ship, the chance of a pair of them meeting up in empty hangar bay and "playing medic" would have been greatly reduced. I expect that when it was required that males and females be in closer physical proximity than their own ships it was strictly regulated that it be when armored up, like that case with Milia's delivery to the Macross.

Realistically, if the Zentradi were adult and functional it's a better question why they seemed unfamiliar with the idea of sexuality entirely since one would expect the sort of opportunistic same-sex encounters found in real-world segregated environments. I think there might have been general other factors in the fleet environment that kept Zentradi from really developing such behavior without further cultural exposure, and can't expect perfect realism of psychology in a space opera kids' show anyway, especially on such topics.

[RedWolf]

Being clones and the constant warfare I'd say the common life expectacy of a grunt is short.

Few get to live a ripe old age.

Either they are processed as adults or in the Meltrans case adolescents. (child bearing age)

As said before it is likely the Zentradi is a breeding stock for the Protoculture to rebuild their civilization.

Just look at Millia in just a year's time she got preggers. And six times after.

The segregation rule is to prevent their genetically engineered soldiers to create their own society and thus rebelling against their masters.

[Project Phoenix]

Speaking of Zentradis, the voice for Bodol Zer just passed away recently.

[JB0]

Speaking of Zentradis, the voice for Bodol Zer just passed away recently.

PROTOCULTUREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

...

It's probably a very bad thing that that was my first thought.

Edited January 8, 2009 by JB0

[Mr March]

Back onto another part of the Zentradi, what the heck is up with the skin? I mean purple? There's something very wrong with Kamjin

Speaking of Zentradis, the voice for Bodol Zer just passed away recently.

De culcha! Sad day indeed. Bye, bye voice of Bodolzaa. You will be missed.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mr March

[Gubaba]

PROTOCULTUREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

...

It's probably a very bad thing that that was my first thought.

It was mine, too.

Britai, Hikaru, Kaifun, and now Bodolzaa...sad indeed.

As for Mr. March's query about Zentradi skin color...I don't know about the in-universe explanation, if there is one (something tells me there's not), but I always thought it was very groovy and Space Battleship Yamato-esque

And, if given a choice, I'd rather be purple with blue hair than green and bald.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Gubaba

[sucker4meltrans]

Well for Zentradi size, weight, and denisty consider this. They just wouldn't have been denser to allow their 8-15 meter tall bodies to support them selves and allow for normal but to scale levels of strength. The bone and muscle and all connecting tissues would have been deisgned to be even deniser then needed to make bodies incredibly strong in both performance and the ability to withstand damage.

The Zentradi with their super dense bodies could also have had latent super dimensional energy running through their bodies (how else does a dog eared loli emit fold waves? the Vajra microbes might have been the radio but she was a power amped antenna) and with the extra mass in their bodies and super dimensional energies the Zentradi could have the ability for limited resizing of their bodies.

Green and blue skinned Zents were all first gen clones. The Zentradi didn't know how the tech ran, they just push buttons and the machine spits out people. The machines from what we saw in SDFM were starting to decline quickly. The Clone O'matic might be on the fritz and started putting out greenies and blue people. This defect could be shallow enough for simple Zentradi Meltran pairing or Zentran/Meltran and human pairings to eliminate the defect but leave in funny colored hair (who doesn't love a purple haired hotty?)

P.S. I don't even see how a 8.5 meter meltran fits in a Q-rae with out removing her legs. Maybe Mr. March can dig up some line art showing how a Meltran sits in it show where the legs are supposed to be.

[Kelsain]

Until the appearance of macronized children @ Formo, I always thought that the Zentraedi were more than just big people. Built-in reinforcement and armor to make their size possible, contained within an organic template based on what their DNA prescribed. The micronization process would use that template to create the body that actually used that DNA, and somehow transfer consciousness. Or something along those lines. MacF threw that idea in the trash.

Imagine how much those kids need to eat to grow. No wonder macro-shoes are so expensive! But seriously, how do their growing bodies support the weight? Temporarily forget the fluid dynamics and physics of macronized sex, what about fertilization and cell division. A blastula the size of your fist! I just don't think it would work.

*looks at the corpses of cat-girls*

I know I'm looking into this too much, but it was one of those things that could be justified, b/c the Zentraedi were manufactured, not born. It's just kinda weird to think of it now.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Kelsain

[Mr March]

Giant living organisms are quite possible. We have giant animals living on Earth right now. Dinosaurs were even larger.

The problem is giant "human" organisms.

Gubaba

Hey, don't knock bald and green. Even Martians need love

P.S. I don't even see how a 8.5 meter meltran fits in a Q-rae with out removing her legs. Maybe Mr. March can dig up some line art showing how a Meltran sits in it show where the legs are supposed to be.

Best canon line art of the Queadluun-Rau cockpit shows the Meltrandi pilot places her legs into the upper legs of the Queadluun-Rau. A semi-seated position (similar to those ergonomic chairs we have today) might also be part of the cockpit accommodation. See line art by clicking here

The Queadluun-Rea from Macross Frontier appears to be less comfortable. Klan is shown fully seated inside the torso; her legs never go below the waist line of the mecha. In that regard, the Q-Rea is more like a Reguld, with a much more cramped, uncomfortable cockpit.

*looks at the corpses of cat-girls*

I know I'm looking into this too much, but it was one of those things that could be justified, b/c the Zentraedi were manufactured, not born. It's just kinda weird to think of it now.

Definitely over-thinking it here, but it's kinda fun

I don't think the bio-mechanical theory makes much sense, since the micloning process wouldn't work in that case. Or at least, it would become far more far-fetched and far more involved than it has been shown in SDF Macross and Macross Frontier. You'd need mechanical removal/reconstruction each time the micloning process occurs and that couldn't really be done inside a giant test tube like we see in the original and the sequels.

Personally, I would think the Zentradi are just biological with extensive genetic engineering. The Protoculture were masters of genetic engineering, so they'd know how to make giant sized organs and organic systems function. And they eventually did create "Super Dimension Organs" when they built the Eh-Vil Zentradi (which become the Protodeviln), similar to the line of thought that sucker4meltrans had.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mr March

[Kelsain]

Personally, I would think the Zentradi are just biological with extensive genetic engineering. The Protoculture were masters of genetic engineering, so they'd know how to make giant sized organs and organic systems function. And they eventually did create "Super Dimension Organs" when they built the Eh-Vil Zentradi (which become the Protodeviln), similar to the line of thought that sucker4meltrans had.

Hmm, that is a good point. My thoughts were to imply that there's a lot more going on inside a Zentraedi than just a big human. But I formulated that idea before seeing 7 or 0, so I wasn't taking the bioengineering skillz of the PC into consideration... So essentially, you're suggesting a biological reinforcement, and with that might be differences in metabolism and organ function. Hell, the PC revered the Vajra, which were some pretty impressive biologics. Considering this, I still think it's fair to call a Zentraedi an organism based on the human (protoculture) genome, but more than just human. Thanks, March, for helping me look at this a new way.

Although, I still maintain that macro-kids would take an enormous amount of food to grow, and would have to eat all day. I think the other fleets might have been right to limit their macro-population.

[RedWolf]

Macross 5 was an all Zentradi fleet of civilians in miclone form.

But Macross Frontier is different from other NMC fleets being a Island Cluuster class thus more resources.

I believe it was mentioned Island 3 was specifically made a tourist attraction.

[Morpheus]

Although, I still maintain that macro-kids would take an enormous amount of food to grow, and would have to eat all day. I think the other fleets might have been right to limit their macro-population.

Dinner time kids, go to your miclonization chamber now!

[Killer Robot]

Hmm, that is a good point. My thoughts were to imply that there's a lot more going on inside a Zentraedi than just a big human. But I formulated that idea before seeing 7 or 0, so I wasn't taking the bioengineering skillz of the PC into consideration... So essentially, you're suggesting a biological reinforcement, and with that might be differences in metabolism and organ function. Hell, the PC revered the Vajra, which were some pretty impressive biologics. Considering this, I still think it's fair to call a Zentraedi an organism based on the human (protoculture) genome, but more than just human. Thanks, March, for helping me look at this a new way.

Although, I still maintain that macro-kids would take an enormous amount of food to grow, and would have to eat all day. I think the other fleets might have been right to limit their macro-population.

It seems reasonable to assume that full sized Zentradi at the least have muscles and bones proportionally far stronger to human tissue. Land-based creatures of Zentradi size could, and in fact have, existed, but not of human stance and proportion, especially in motion. Large animals tend to have much stockier builds and thicker bones, as well as more careful and less fluid motion to make up for the stress the increased mass puts on their frames. They similarly are similarly less able to take high G-forces, or relatedly to survive long falls. This is in the real world, of course, and Zentradi lack these issues: clearly the nature of the PC enhancements is behind it. Given that Zentradi miclones don't appear to have the superhuman strength/speed/toughness those enhancements would imply, it can be presumed to only be active at their full size: on the other hand, such enhancements might be duplicated in modern cyborgs, for tough but humanlike tissues.

As for macro-kids, presuming they grow to adulthood in the same timeframe as human kids, they would only need as much food proportional to macro-adults as human children need proportional to human adults. Which is certainly a lot, but no more than that of having Zentran colonists in the first place.

I'm a little puzzled by the constant assumption I see in this or other threads that it's somehow wasteful or impractical to have full-sized Zentradi in space, when the shipbuilding technology in use was originally developed specifically to sustain Zentradi fleets. It's important to remember that the Zentradi were not miclonized to save on food bills, but rather to better culturally integrate them with humans and to subdue human fear of being destroyed by giants like the protoculture was(especially after Kamjin's and other high profile rebellions showed the damage restless Zentradi can do). It's also important to note that fleets are not constantly sent out because Earth and Eden are crowded, but to ensure that the human race will be too widely spread to be entirely destroyed by a single war or disaster. The post-war resource which is most scarce and difficult to preserve is not food or water or energy, but human(or Zentradi) life itself. Granted, Frontier had issues sustaining its Zentradi colonists after the one battle, but that was only once it was a badly damaged fleet with failing life support. Even then, macronized Zentradi only gave Frontier better resilience against such disasters: a fleet of Frontier's size that had used that Zentran space for the larger number of miclones that would have comfortably fit in it would have had no such belt-tightening option as Frontier did, hastening the resource crunch at the end and perhaps dooming the fleet.

[Kelsain]

I'm a little puzzled by the constant assumption I see in this or other threads that it's somehow wasteful or impractical to have full-sized Zentradi in space, when the shipbuilding technology in use was originally developed specifically to sustain Zentradi fleets.

Point conceded! I'm not sure I've seen this rather obvious thought so succinctly put. Der.

Perhaps the rather new appearance of macro-children was the incentive to create 7-color carrots in the first place!

[anime52k8]

Best canon line art of the Queadluun-Rau cockpit shows the Meltrandi pilot places her legs into the upper legs of the Queadluun-Rau. A semi-seated position (similar to those ergonomic chairs we have today) might also be part of the cockpit accommodation. See line art by clicking here

The Queadluun-Rea from Macross Frontier appears to be less comfortable. Klan is shown fully seated inside the torso; her legs never go below the waist line of the mecha. In that regard, the Q-Rea is more like a Reguld, with a much more cramped, uncomfortable cockpit.

when did we get a good enough look at the inside of the Q-Rea to tell that she's actually fully seated? (I honestly don't remember)

I kind of think that the Q-rea is a fair amount bigger than the Q-rau. Klan's size relative to the cockpit (i.e. size of her head vs. the mechs head, her shoulder width vs the width of the cockpit) seemed about the same as as a pilot in a Q-rau.

it just seems like since Klan is apparently bigger the Q-rea is also up scaled a similar amount.

[JB0]

Imagine how much those kids need to eat to grow. No wonder macro-shoes are so expensive! But seriously, how do their growing bodies support the weight?

Well, if they could make enough food for full-size meltrandi engaged in heavy manual labor post-war, I'm sure they have a solution.

...

Hopefully a better one than throwing turkey drumsticks in the micloning chamber.

Edit: Whoops, I meant zentradi. I blame that lost 2 years summary with it's giant wrestler chicks.

Edited January 12, 2009 by JB0

[badboy00z]

Well what exactly were the Zentran/ Meltran eating before they ever got micloned? Giant animals like cows or chicken??

[RedWolf]

MREs what else? Aso if Gillliam is any indication. whisper: They are made out of people...

Edited January 9, 2009 by RedWolf

[anime52k8]

Well, if they could make enough food for full-size meltrandi engaged in heavy manual labor post-war, I'm sure they have a solution.

...

Hopefully a better one than throwing turkey drumsticks in the micloning chamber.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was basically what they do.

[Mr March]

when did we get a good enough look at the inside of the Q-Rea to tell that she's actually fully seated? (I honestly don't remember)

I kind of think that the Q-rea is a fair amount bigger than the Q-rau. Klan's size relative to the cockpit (i.e. size of her head vs. the mechs head, her shoulder width vs the width of the cockpit) seemed about the same as as a pilot in a Q-rau.

it just seems like since Klan is apparently bigger the Q-rea is also up scaled a similar amount.

We never did get a good look at the Q-Rea cockpit (you know, it's really a chore to distinguish the "Rau" and "Rea" now. Damn Kawamori and co., LOL ). But we did clearly see Klan seated inside it when she was in the hangar bay. It wasn't the first time we saw her in it, but one of the subsequent hangar scenes, it clearly shows Klan seated with her knees up just before she exits her mecha. Which kinda makes sense, since the Macross Compendium description makes the Rea sound more like a fighter pod than a traditional Zentradi battle suit.

Hopefully a better one than throwing turkey drumsticks in the micloning chamber.

That's the best solution I've ever read!

Besides, what the heck was Kamjin eating in the episode where they captured Minmay? Sure looked like a massive drumstick to me

Must have been one massive turkey

Well what exactly were the Zentran/ Meltran eating before they ever got micloned? Giant animals like cows or chicken??

Hippocows?

[SchizophrenicMC]

They eat hippocows and Macronized Soylent Green (Green because it's made of green PEOPLE! )

Maybe only Micloned Meltrandi can become pregnant. Perhaps that set of organs shuts down after Macronization, then reactivates after Micronization. It's really just a matter of hormone imbalance. Then, as a matter of pride or something, the parents had their kids Macronized...

Or maybe Meltrandi can get pregnant... That'd be something to see... Giant, purple-haired chick with baby on board... When that thing kicks, it sets off earthquakes, and when it's born, the shrieking cry makes people deaf for miles around!

Something tells me the only explanation for Q-Rea is it has a fold-portal projector in the waist, so everything below is stored in SD space, not normal space... I often think of stupid stuff like that...

Hm... That pregnant Meltran thing got me thinking... Kamjin and Azonia were... Fooling around... Maybe, by 2012, Kamjin got his hands on some looted Zentraedi-size... Gunpod covers...

And, to that extent, if logic dictates, Klan will be 20 in Micron form in 9 years. (I read somewhere that her Micron form was 11 years in the aging process) Had Michael survived, that'd be a great, cheap (Gunpod covers are expensive...) way to stay without child for awhile... A loli is fine too

[Killer Robot]

I figure they wouldn't make a big deal about "natural" pork and "real" eggs on Frontier if they couldn't more cheaply and easily synthesize something close but not exactly like the real thing. At a guess, I'd imagine Zentradi ships were outfitted with equipment, quite possibly related to the micloning tanks, that would make assorted foods out of base organic materials. That at least would explain why the Zentradi in SDFM were occasionally seen eating vaguely recognizable food products. Though it does seem odd that natural foodstuffs would be worth remarking about on Frontier, when the fleet seems so heavily geared toward agriculture and strict biosystem-type recycling.

[Oihan]

About Klan, her size, and the Queadluun-Rau/Rae ...Aren't the seating arrangements of a Queadluun-Rau different than that of a Queadluun-Rea's? Couldn't that account for Klan's size and why she can fit in her Queadluun-Rea? Just throwing it out there....

Edited January 10, 2009 by Oihan

[Remko]

About Klan, her size, and the Queadluun-Rau/Rae ...Aren't the seating arrangements of a Queadluun-Rau different than that of a Queadluun-Rea's? Couldn't that account for Klan's size and why she can fit in her Queadluun-Rea? Just throwing it out there....

I haven't seen this image yet in this discussion, and it might be relevant. It shows the shear size of Klan's Queadluun, with her sitting in it.

Looks like she has more than enough room to put those long beautiful legs somewhere. Hmm... Amazon Meltran... ^_^

[VF-18S Hornet]

It'd add to the irony of Klan's "genetic defect" if she's an Amazon among Meltrandi when macronized. That's my theory.

Or maybe like Britai, Klan Klans has a commander type body but still looks hot.

[badboy00z]

Or maybe their mechas are custom built for larger sized Zentran/ Meltrans.