No Love for Southern Cross?

[Chronocidal]

You know what, I don't want to ruin that cover art for anyone, so I'm going to spoiler this, but I just cannot not see this.
 

Spoiler

That armor doesn't usually evoke that, but I think that particular angle just makes me think it's a mech-elephant  

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Chronocidal

[Podtastic]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:21 AM, Tober said:

Was their Macross book any good if you don't play tabletop RPGs? I liked the Palladium books for their line art etc, but never played the game.

I only purchased it for Francisco Etchart's artwork. In that regard its a bit mixed.

One the one hand there is some largish art therein which I was not able to find online, such as the Meltran pilot suit. On the other hand some of the art is cut off, such as on the Zentraedi officer bios.

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IMO, it's better for that than for playing the game.

Indeed.

All I want from the Homefront book is art of the Bioroids, which it appears there will be. Bonus if it contains art of the other Tirolian ships and mecha such as the Roil Tiluvo, and the Tirolian characters that Francisco has not done before e.g. Musica. On the Mospaeda side I'm just hoping for large art of the Sheldor, Gosu and Regis.

WRT the Sentinels book all I need is art of the Invid Inorganics and the Regent. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Podtastic

[levzloi]

11 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

You know what, I don't want to ruin that cover art for anyone, so I'm going to spoiler this, but I just cannot not see this.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

That armor doesn't usually evoke that, but I think that particular angle just makes me think it's a mech-elephant  

 

Heffalumps and Woozels!  Who spiked the honey?

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Game mechanics are wonkier than a first-gen Chinese fighter jet's engine manifold.

Palladium's game system is clunky, sure... but Strange Machine's is way worse in that it's barely there at all and combines that with a punishing lack of accuracy with respect to the setting.

Palladium may have phoned in the art, but Strange Machine phoned in everything else.

[Dynaman]

Strange Machine must be REALLY bad.  I don't think Palladium has a game system - suggestions of one at best.  Though my quick look at the rules for the miniatures that came out a few years back looked good.  Not good enough to buy anything but good.

[pengbuzz]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Palladium's game system is clunky, sure... but Strange Machine's is way worse in that it's barely there at all and combines that with a punishing lack of accuracy with respect to the setting.

Palladium may have phoned in the art, but Strange Machine phoned in everything else.

There is that...

[CoryHolmes]

8 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Strange Machine must be REALLY bad.  I don't think Palladium has a game system - suggestions of one at best.  Though my quick look at the rules for the miniatures that came out a few years back looked good.  Not good enough to buy anything but good.

The mini rules are a distillation of the last 30ish years of Palladium's system.  It helps that the system was originally meant to ape Battletech.  But the PnP version isn't very quick or clean at all.  Combat takes forever, and the rules for non-combat activity aren't that great.

 

But I've been playing with them since TMNT & Other Strangeness came out, so I'm used to them for better or worse.

[Podtastic]

It looks like my art requirements for this Homefront tome will be met.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Podtastic

[tekering]

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Erm... is that supposed to be a Robotech redesign, to make the Zor mothership look more like a Zentraedi battle cruiser? 🤨

The color, the uneven surface edges, and the purple domes are a significant departure from Ammonite's line art.  The spires look like insect legs, and those domes look like ratty umbrellas with that rib structure. 

[Podtastic]

1 hour ago, tekering said:

Erm... is that supposed to be a Robotech redesign, to make the Zor mothership look more like a Zentraedi battle cruiser? 🤨

He has obviously just used that old underside picture thats been on the net for some time as a reference. 

1 hour ago, tekering said:

The color, the uneven surface edges, and the purple domes are a significant departure from Ammonite's line art.  The spires look like insect legs, and those domes look like ratty umbrellas with that rib structure

No it looks pretty faithful to that pic (where ever it comes from) with a little simplification.

Hopefully he has done some pics of the ship from other viewpoints as well.

I'm just happy that he has done some of these pics, I love his work. Particularly as he has done pics of the interesting alien stuff, not just valkyries and those accursed idols.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Podtastic

[tekering]

7 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

No it looks pretty faithful to that pic (where ever it comes from) with a little simplification.

That's exactly the problem, see:

He's covered up significant portions of the exposed interior, he's misinterpreted surface detailing on the domes as transparency, he's simply painted over the bits he can't parse, and his colors are way off.  If he'd even glanced at the animation itself, he wouldn't have made such errors.

[Podtastic]

1 minute ago, tekering said:

That's exactly the problem, see:

He's covered up significant portions of the exposed interior, he's misinterpreted surface detailing on the domes as transparency, he's simply painted over the bits he can't parse, and his colors are way off.  If he'd even glanced at the animation itself, he wouldn't have made such errors.

Once again you are technically correct.

However his artwork is more along the lines of what I would regard as stylised colour sketches, rather than the detailed painted art you would expect from Tenjin Hidetaka or YoshIyuki Takani.

So I'm not holding him to such exacting standards.

 

 

[captain america]

To be fair, that Japanese line-art sketch is a bit of a detailed trainwreck. Could he have been a bit more faithful in capturing some of the exposed machinery? Yes. Also, those dome shapes look more like chrome hemispheres to me than what he rendered, but that's just my interpretation. The other thing most fans don't understand is that all these illustrations have to abide by what art directors decide and give approval to. To say that you'd be shocked at the lack of competence in some management circles is an understatement.

I like the artist's character renderings; that seems to be his strength. His mecha are a bit soft.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 9/27/2021 at 2:03 PM, Dynaman said:

Strange Machine must be REALLY bad.  I don't think Palladium has a game system - suggestions of one at best.  Though my quick look at the rules for the miniatures that came out a few years back looked good.  Not good enough to buy anything but good.

Well, yeah... they're a Robotech licensee.  Your company doesn't end up with the Robotech license if they're known for doing a good job. 

Palladium Books does have a reasonably serviceable game system in its "Megaversal" rule set and gameplay can flow pretty well once you do a little selective trimming and polishing with house rules.  Its main problems are that without house rules it flows as smoothly as a masonry enema, its character skills are either ridiculously granular or excessively broad with no middle ground, and its combat system is set up more or less exclusively for one-on-one combat between two highly durable combatants.  It's not a great fit for a setting with fast-paced combat or one-vs-many combat like Macross or MOSPEADA.  It'd be a more appropriate fit for something like Gundam's Universal Century, BattleTech, or Warhammer 40,000's Titans.  It's very much ideal for two giant stompy robots pounding on each other with machine guns and missiles until one falls down.  

Strange Machine's system is definitely better suited to something like a fantasy setting without fighting vehicles and with a light combat emphasis at most.

 

12 hours ago, tekering said:

Erm... is that supposed to be a Robotech redesign, to make the Zor mothership look more like a Zentraedi battle cruiser? 🤨

The color, the uneven surface edges, and the purple domes are a significant departure from Ammonite's line art.  The spires look like insect legs, and those domes look like ratty umbrellas with that rib structure. 

Bless his heart, he's actually trying... that's more than Southern Cross usually gets no matter what the quality of the end result is.

[tekering]

[Podtastic]

9 hours ago, tekering said:

That's a nice bike.

But do you know what else would be cool?😁

BTW its confirmed that with the new Homefront RPG you are able to play as Tirolians or Invid.

Better yet, you can play any faction against another. This means you CAN play the aliens against each other.🤩

Finally I'm getting the alien on alien action I've been wanting. The last time I asked a game creator whether there would be any he responded with this.🤨

Edited October 3, 2021 by Podtastic

[CoryHolmes]

2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

That's a nice bike.

But do you know what else would be cool?😁

 

 

 

😁

 

Quote

 

BTW its confirmed that with the new Homefront RPG you are able to play as Tirolians or Invid.

Better yet, you can play any faction against another. This means you CAN play the aliens against each other.🤩

 

 

2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Finally I'm getting the alien on alien action I've been wanting. The last time I asked a game creator whether there would be any he responded with this.🤨

 

 

I just hope it's a fun game that adds more to the setting.  The Macross Era had some future characters writing essays about the events, one from Nova Satori.  I always enjoyed that part of the Jack McKinney novels, too. 

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, tekering said:

Ah yes, the only design from Southern Cross that looks like some thought went into it.

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

But do you know what else would be cool?😁

Robo-Milhouse there will never be cool.

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

BTW its confirmed that with the new Homefront RPG you are able to play as Tirolians or Invid.

Better yet, you can play any faction against another. This means you CAN play the aliens against each other.🤩

Finally I'm getting the alien on alien action I've been wanting.

Seriously.  There was literally never anything stopping you.

 

4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

The last time I asked a game creator whether there would be any he responded with this.🤨

Smart fellow, that creator.

 

2 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

I just hope it's a fun game that adds more to the setting.  The Macross Era had some future characters writing essays about the events, one from Nova Satori.  I always enjoyed that part of the Jack McKinney novels, too. 

... unlikely.  Strange Machine's books are kinda bare-bones compared to Palladium's.

[Podtastic]

18 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

always enjoyed that part of the Jack McKinney novels, too. 

I always enjoyed the little epigraphs at the start of chapters in those books, especially those by the Zentraedi.

"...looking through a telescope and seeing the back of your own head. Well I'm sure it all looked good on paper."

Enjoyed that in the Dune novels as well. One stuck with me because its true in our world as well.

"Those who would repeat the past must first control the teaching of history."

Edited October 4, 2021 by Podtastic

[CoryHolmes]

20 hours ago, Podtastic said:

I always enjoyed the little epigraphs at the start of chapters in those books, especially those by the Zentraedi.

"...looking through a telescope and seeing the back of your own head. Well I'm sure it all looked good on paper."

Enjoyed that in the Dune novels as well. One stuck with me because its true in our world as well.

"Those who would repeat the past must first control the teaching of history."

Yup.  Little things like that really added to the world without taking pages of dialog.

[GabrielV]

Seto, you'll have to explain what you mean by SMG's books being "bare bones compared to Palladium's."  

As for SMG's game, it is very different from the Palladium version.

Palladium is an 80s era D&D hack which had already grown haphazardrly by the mid-80s and then got Robotech shoehorned into it.  It follows the predominant simulationist mindset of 80s gaming.  It is definitely of the wargaming slant, with a lot of focus on the mecha and military operations and organization.

SMG's A6 system is a modern style narrative dicepool system.  The Robotech iteration is an extensive rewrite and modification of the company's SuperAge game to gear it up to simulate Robotech.  That said, it is not the most clearly and intuitively written RPG book ever committed to print.  But the soul of the game is in drama and narration.  It's about the melodrama of the show.

Palladium is focused on the "real world simulation" idea of cataloguing each narrow field of knowledge a character knows, and then leverating those percentile ratings and bonuses to perform specific actions in game.  A character knows "Pilot Veritech" or "Read Sensory Equipment" or "Weapon Proficiency Auto Rifle" and makes skill checks or attack rolls based on those definitions.

SMG's A6 is more about your approach to a problem.  A character's fields of expertise are broadly defined by their archetype rather than a specific narrow definition of known fields.  Instead of having six specific skills about piloting a veritech, they simply have the Veritech Pilot archetype and as long as they operate within that archetype they are performing as a skilled actor.  Skills are not specific fields of expertise but are approaches to doing things.  They're things like Angelic Grace (doing things stylishly and gracefully) or Flash Move (doing things quickly and instinctually).  The idea is that you describe HOW your character does something to determine your dice pool to roll.

In terms of combat, A6 is definitely more than a bit grey.  I've found it starts snapping into focus better when you start running some sample combats rather than reading the book.  Even then, it's a bit loosey-goosey.  I'd say the nearest equivalent would be Tunnels & Trolls combat, but it's a very imperfect comparison.  The point is the combat system is not necessarily about the blow by blow of combat like Palladium's is.  It's about providing a structure to narrate combat.

And then there's the Battlefield Press Savage Worlds version of Robotech.  That version is just meant to sit on a shelf so you can say you have a Savage Worlds version of Robotech.  I haven't seen the Revised version yet, so maybe they do some work on it.

Anyway, I'm excited about the upcoming SMG Southern Cross/New Generation book.  I've been waiting for it for a while.  It looks like I've still got about a year to wait, but it's good to finally see something concrete about it.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, GabrielV said:

Seto, you'll have to explain what you mean by SMG's books being "bare bones compared to Palladium's."  

So... put simply, Strange Machine's presentation is markedly more modern and professional than Palladium's but you get less in terms of actual content.

As often as I put Palladium Books on blast for its haphazard writing practices, their Robotech game tries to give players a better - and bigger - picture of the Robotech setting to use as a starting point for games.  The writers put a lot of effort into trying to maximize the freedom players had to develop characters and storylines outside of a narrow focus of the military and the Robotech Wars.  They sometimes had to take questionable liberties with the setting to do it, but it was for a good cause.  Strange Machine's game books are definitely prettier, the view of the setting and story is much narrower and the information it provides is more sparse, less accurate, and generally less useful in that regard.

There's less actual game in Strange Machine's game.

Granted, Palladium's game design absolutely leans heavily simulationist and as a result its character skills can be excessively granular at times.  Strange Machine's game design leans just as far in the opposite direction with characters skills written excessively broadly.  It's easier by far to fix excessive granularity with house rules than to house rule limits onto over-broad "Swiss Army" skills.  Simplicity is good, but oversimplification can quickly become immersion-breaking.  Especially when a character's skills/attributes permit them to do things common sense says shouldn't be possible with their specific knowledge base.  Someone whose character has the Sailor archetype, for instance, could claim their character has equal ability to pilot any sailing vessel from a bathtub to a battleship.  A character with a Mechanic archetype can claim to be equally adept at fixing a dishwasher or a Destroid.  It's not as much an issue in Robotech, but if someone were to adapt the game to Macross as is basically inevitable for the Robotech RPG you've got the potential for a Valkyrie Pilot archetype's holder to claim equal skill on every kind of transformable aircraft from fighters to attacks to bombers to reconnaissance planes.  If your players are good, this can work well when its style suits them.  If your parents are even the slightest bit argumentative, the GM is going to be living in Because I Say So Land for the duration of the game.

[CoryHolmes]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... put simply, Strange Machine's presentation is markedly more modern and professional than Palladium's but you get less in terms of actual content.

As often as I put Palladium Books on blast for its haphazard writing practices, their Robotech game tries to give players a better - and bigger - picture of the Robotech setting to use as a starting point for games.  The writers put a lot of effort into trying to maximize the freedom players had to develop characters and storylines outside of a narrow focus of the military and the Robotech Wars.  They sometimes had to take questionable liberties with the setting to do it, but it was for a good cause.  Strange Machine's game books are definitely prettier, the view of the setting and story is much narrower and the information it provides is more sparse, less accurate, and generally less useful in that regard.

There's less actual game in Strange Machine's game.

Granted, Palladium's game design absolutely leans heavily simulationist and as a result its character skills can be excessively granular at times.  Strange Machine's game design leans just as far in the opposite direction with characters skills written excessively broadly.  It's easier by far to fix excessive granularity with house rules than to house rule limits onto over-broad "Swiss Army" skills.  Simplicity is good, but oversimplification can quickly become immersion-breaking.  Especially when a character's skills/attributes permit them to do things common sense says shouldn't be possible with their specific knowledge base.  Someone whose character has the Sailor archetype, for instance, could claim their character has equal ability to pilot any sailing vessel from a bathtub to a battleship.  A character with a Mechanic archetype can claim to be equally adept at fixing a dishwasher or a Destroid.  It's not as much an issue in Robotech, but if someone were to adapt the game to Macross as is basically inevitable for the Robotech RPG you've got the potential for a Valkyrie Pilot archetype's holder to claim equal skill on every kind of transformable aircraft from fighters to attacks to bombers to reconnaissance planes.  If your players are good, this can work well when its style suits them.  If your parents are even the slightest bit argumentative, the GM is going to be living in Because I Say So Land for the duration of the game.

Yeah, what Seto said.  To add my own $0.02CAD, Palladium's games had much more background and worldbuilding material, even if they had to invent some of it.  One of the things I really appreciate about the 2nd Ed game is the breakdown it gave to the various Zentradi castes:  Run-of-the-mill Warrior caste?  Very little development, 'alpha-male' mentality, and only expected to live a few weeks to months in combat conditions.  The Warlord caste, like Khyron and Azonia?  A bit more developed, a bit better thinkers, but easily swayed by powerful emotions like teenagers and adolescents.  High Command, like Breetai?  Exceedingly well-developed, trained, educated, and expected to lead their fleets for decades or more.

 

One of the passages that really stuck with me was in the Reconstruction-Era, where the Zentradi are having difficulty assimilating.  "In the end, the Zentradi on Earth have a difficult road ahead of them.  The strongest will persevere and find some measure of peace and co-existence on this strange planet of humans.  The weak, the bitter, and the violent will return to their warrior ways and become rebels, hunted by humans and assimilated Zentradi alike.  Ultimately, these rebels will meet the same end as generations of their race, to die and be forgotten on the vast fields of war."

 

There's similar worldbuilding for the Masters book, going into the various nation-states of the fractured Earth and how they all have to work together to supply the ASC.  Some with men, some with material, and some with money.  It's entirely possible to have a squad with members from otherwise competing nation-states.

 

I didn't see anything like that in SMGs version, instead it seemed more of a "here's how to play, make your own story" kind of deal.

[Podtastic]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

characters and storylines outside of a narrow focus of the military and the Robotech Wars.

 By "outside the narrow focus" do you mean something that will add more texture to the earth war, like the storyline of a Tirolian scientist who develops more advanced weapon technology that ends up being used in the war?

2 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

it seemed more of a "here's how to play, make your own story"

That suits me down to the ground.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Podtastic said:

By "outside the narrow focus" do you mean something that will add more texture to the earth war, like the storyline of a Tirolian scientist who develops more advanced weapon technology that ends up being used in the war?

... given that that ties directly into the war story, I don't think I would call that "outside of the narrow focus" of the war story.

Outside the realm of plausibility tho, given humanity's vocal and vehement, literally militant, xenophobia in Robotech tho.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... given that that ties directly into the war story, I don't think I would call that "outside of the narrow focus" of the war story.

Outside the realm of plausibility tho, given humanity's vocal and vehement, literally militant, xenophobia in Robotech tho.

So then, a "Robotech/ Predator Crossover" for example wouldn't happen due to SMG's focus then?

(Just think happy little thoughts of Dana being stalked by an camouflaged Yautja Warrior )

Edited October 6, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

34 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So then, a "Robotech/ Predator Crossover" for example wouldn't happen due to SMG's focus then?

(Just think happy little thoughts of Dana being stalked by an camouflaged Yautja Warrior :D)

SMG's lack of worldbuilding kind of just leaves the basic war story and whatever your local lazy GM can be arsed to come up with.  They do the minimum necessary to get by and claim it's a game and not just a bad fanart collection doujin.

That said, I'd imagine that'd be a singularly unfulfilling hunt... the prey (Jeanne/Dana) doesn't have a brain, so I'd question whether there's a skull under that mop or if it's just a greasy mass of fused hair like a sheep that hasn't been sheared in years.

[pengbuzz]

53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

SMG's lack of worldbuilding kind of just leaves the basic war story and whatever your local lazy GM can be arsed to come up with.  They do the minimum necessary to get by and claim it's a game and not just a bad fanart collection doujin.

That said, I'd imagine that'd be a singularly unfulfilling hunt... the prey (Jeanne/Dana) doesn't have a brain, so I'd question whether there's a skull under that mop or if it's just a greasy mass of fused hair like a sheep that hasn't been sheared in years.

So Jeanne/Dana could be taken out by a good haircut? 🤣

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

So Jeanne/Dana could be taken out by a good haircut? 🤣

Or handing her a fashion magazine.  Or just giving her a sheet that says "Your new orders are on the back of this page' on both sides.  Or simply waiting for her to get bored and wander off as she inevitably does.

Jeanne Francaix is not the most disciplined or focused soldier in the Southern Cross Army.  Let's face if, if she were cast in a 22nd century Animal House remake she'd be Bluto... but only because Charles has a better claim on Otter after being demoted all the way from first lieutenant to buck private on a conduct unbecoming charge for fooling around with his superior's wife.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or handing her a fashion magazine.  Or just giving her a sheet that says "Your new orders are on the back of this page' on both sides.  Or simply waiting for her to get bored and wander off as she inevitably does.

Jeanne Francaix is not the most disciplined or focused soldier in the Southern Cross Army.  Let's face if, if she were cast in a 22nd century Animal House remake she'd be Bluto... but only because Charles has a better claim on Otter after being demoted all the way from first lieutenant to buck private on a conduct unbecoming charge for fooling around with his superior's wife.

"FOOD FIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!"

[JB0]

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

(Just think happy little thoughts of Dana being stalked by an camouflaged Yautja Warrior )

Nah, she's the kind of character that trips and falls in the mud right as the hunter pulls the trigger, then turns the tables while he's figuring out where she went.

[Podtastic]

The Predator would probably be more interested in hunting Seifried Weiss/Zor Prime.

 

[JB0]

The Predator would probably leave the planet in search of worthy prey.

[Podtastic]

16 hours ago, JB0 said:

The Predator would probably leave the planet in search of worthy prey.

After taking Zor's skull.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, Podtastic said:

The Predator would probably be more interested in hunting Seifried Weiss/Zor Prime.

Probably, yeah... he was way more confident, competent, and impressive than she was, which is why he very nearly took over as main character near the end.

Turns out that if you make your low-rent Amuro a complete pillock, your audience will find your Char Clone way more compelling.