No Love for Southern Cross?

[kamikaze_kamujin]

This is an interesting japanese webpage dedicated to Southern Cross

"Robotech Masters/Southern Cross world"

http://www.geocities.jp/yuiyuasa/newpage2.htm

Believe it or not, in part of Japan they aired Robotech. It aired in Okinawa because there are US military bases there. The webmaster of that webpage who is a girl told that somewhere, but I cant remember where it was, and that it was how she became a Robotech fan, if you check that webpage the original version is in japanese, and she has like 2 other Robotech webpages, one dedicated to a Robotech comic if I recall correctly

[Graham]

Also, most hardcore SC fans hang out here:

http://rdfhqcommunicationscenter.yuku.com/directory

What all three of them........LOL

Graham

[Graham]

but it was Tatsunoko trying to do a Super Dimension show entirely in house without using Studio Nue, Artmic, or any other design houses and maybe that was part of their problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head. No mecha designs by Studio Nue or Artmic = fail.

To be honest, I could never get into the SC mecha designs. They always came across as more silly looking and less belivable than those of Macross & Mospeada and I think that was definitely part of the problem for the shows lack of success.

Graham

[jenius]

What all three of them........LOL

Graham

OOH super dimension burn!

No no Graham, they're known as the "dirty dozen" on the Robotech boards.

[Ginrai]

Honestly I think the original armor on robo-horse designs, as ridiculous as they are, may have been cooler.

[VF5SS]

Well I think that's part of the problem with the Southern Cross mecha and armor. Taking designs from an original premise like "old Japan with robots" and turning it into a regular robot sci-fi show makes them look a little silly. A lot of those designs seemed really intricate for the time. I wonder if the Logan was added in late in development since it looks so simple.

[jenius]

I don't think you can limit Southern Cross' unpopularity to its mecha designs. Poor mech designs are easier to overcome than a plot that doesn't grab people and characters the audience doesn't like or relate to. Southern Cross had lots against it and it really required people to stick with it for a bit while it developed but it didn't have enough of a hook to keep people coming back (and yes, something as simple as sweet mech designs could have been that hook).

[RavenHawk]

That's kind of odd because Southern Cross always had some of my favourite mecha and I just love the armour designs. Very cool.

It's really all about taste. As much as I thoroughly loved Robotech as a kid, and drooled over the Macross Saga part of Robotech, I just could never get into Southern Cross, no matter how I tried (with the exception of the helicopter, which always, to my personal aesthetic, seemed very cool but misplaced in that show).

MOSPEADA/New Generation, however, is what really stuck with me over the years.

Everyone's taste is different.

I can't understand how some people don't like MOSPEADA, you loved Southern Cross... but I think you are in the minority, with not enough fans to support it then or probably now.

[Roger]

In the early 1980s, kids were trampling each other to get Gundam kits. After that, the only enduring survivors of the subsequent mecha apocalypse were the shows with the designs kids found the coolest, the ones that truly upheld the mecha aesthetic.

Exhibit A:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=4

What makes the Valkyrie a cool mecha? First of all, it looks like something that was manufactured. Unlike a super robot's design, which is more of an assemblage of basic shapes to convey strength, this looks like something that humans actually built. There are vents and running lights all over it as well as those trademark "circle-slash" things. (I know that there's supposed to be some sort of function for these, like the rungs on a Scopedog, but I don't remember what it is.)

Exhibit B:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=19

What makes the Legioss cool? Again, it has a strong manufactured flavor, thanks to ingredients like the triangular details at the knees and shoulders, the little recessed squares in the knees, hips, and shoulders (which are supposed to be sub-cameras), and those big intake vents on the chest. The "ammo box" styling it has gives it an even stronger militaristic feel than the Valkyrie. This is what mecha is all about.

Exhibit C:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=44

What's different here? First of all, there are lots of curves in the design, many smooth, undetailed surfaces, and it's awfully short on greeblies aside from those circles on the knees. It's somewhat reminiscent of something you'd make with origami. It also seems somewhat muscular, looking a little bit like a man in a suit. There's a lot going on with the first two designs that this one just doesn't have, and the same can be said for the rest of the Southern Cross mecha.

Some of this will seem subjective, and every person's concept of beauty (whether it's in a woman's face or a robot design) is always going to vary, but I do believe that if the Southern Cross designs had more of what other shows' robots did, and robot design counted for a lot in those days, then its legacy would have endured, and we'd be getting some sort of merchandise for it now.

Japanese companies are making toys from MOSPEADA, Galient, Orguss, Megazone 23, even Dorvack fer crissakes, but nothing from Southern Cross. The robots were the main selling points of these shows, and I think the black hole left by this show says a lot.

And I realize that there are reasons for the show being an "interesting failure" as Ginrai put it. The show started as a completely different concept (science fiction sengoku story), had the giant robots grafted onto it much later on, and the creators had to deal with this juggling act in a matter of weeks, coordinating everything with their sponsors and licensees, so it was almost destined to fall short of the mark.

[Roger]

And something that Japanese robot scholar Matt Alt just pointed out to me: Southern Cross has too much damn hovering. Jeanne has a motorcycle that hovers, the bioroids have hovercraft. Touch the ground once in a while, fer crissakes. Did the creators have some dirt phobia or something?

I now believe that the prime reason for the show's failure was the over-reliance on hovering. I'm going to update the Wikipedia article.

[Roger]

More from Mr. Alt-o (who is, incidentally, the inspiration for the Macross Frontier character's name):

Here's the Japanese Wiki page:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/サ|...#12525;ス

It does say that Bandai became the show's sponsor (as Takatoku went bankrupt that year.) It says that a transforming Spartas toy was announced in the magazines at the time, but the sponsor dropped the show without ever actually producing one. Bandai apparently threw all of their weight behind merchandising 'Macross: Do You Remember Deep Like?' instead. It is an interesting case of a robot show for which a portrayal of the main character's mecha was never produced. The page also says that the first release of the models featured the legendary ad-copy phrase "body incorporating lolicon!" on the blister-pack for the upper body pieces.

The lolicon disgusts me. Good riddance to that show. ;p

[RavenHawk]

In the early 1980s, kids were trampling each other to get Gundam kits. After that, the only enduring survivors of the subsequent mecha apocalypse were the shows with the designs kids found the coolest, the ones that truly upheld the mecha aesthetic.

Exhibit A:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=4

What makes the Valkyrie a cool mecha? First of all, it looks like something that was manufactured. Unlike a super robot's design, which is more of an assemblage of basic shapes to convey strength, this looks like something that humans actually built. There are vents and running lights all over it as well as those trademark "circle-slash" things. (I know that there's supposed to be some sort of function for these, like the rungs on a Scopedog, but I don't remember what it is.)

Exhibit B:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=19

What makes the Legioss cool? Again, it has a strong manufactured flavor, thanks to ingredients like the triangular details at the knees and shoulders, the little recessed squares in the knees, hips, and shoulders (which are supposed to be sub-cameras), and those big intake vents on the chest. The "ammo box" styling it has gives it an even stronger militaristic feel than the Valkyrie. This is what mecha is all about.

Exhibit C:

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=44

What's different here? First of all, there are lots of curves in the design, many smooth, undetailed surfaces, and it's awfully short on greeblies aside from those circles on the knees. It's somewhat reminiscent of something you'd make with origami. It also seems somewhat muscular, looking a little bit like a man in a suit. There's a lot going on with the first two designs that this one just doesn't have, and the same can be said for the rest of the Southern Cross mecha.

Some of this will seem subjective, and every person's concept of beauty (whether it's in a woman's face or a robot design) is always going to vary, but I do believe that if the Southern Cross designs had more of what other shows' robots did, and robot design counted for a lot in those days, then its legacy would have endured, and we'd be getting some sort of merchandise for it now.

Japanese companies are making toys from MOSPEADA, Galient, Orguss, Megazone 23, even Dorvack fer crissakes, but nothing from Southern Cross. The robots were the main selling points of these shows, and I think the black hole left by this show says a lot.

And I realize that there are reasons for the show being an "interesting failure" as Ginrai put it. The show started as a completely different concept (science fiction sengoku story), had the giant robots grafted onto it much later on, and the creators had to deal with this juggling act in a matter of weeks, coordinating everything with their sponsors and licensees, so it was almost destined to fall short of the mark.

I've never watched more than a handful episodes of Gundam, so I can't speak to its popularity, but one interesting thing that Shinji Aramaki once mentioned in an interview is that one of the big deals with Macross was that it had robots that turned into planes, somewhat like taking a design for a plane, and then figuring out how to make it transform into a robot. Previous to this, much of anime had robots first, and then tried to figure out how to make it transform into something, resulting in vehicles which didn't really look like much of anything. Aramaki tried to learn from this for his designs for MOSPEADA.

It you look at the three examples offered up by Roger above, maybe there's something to this. The Macross fighters look like fighters. The MOSPEADA fighters look like futuristic fighter. The Southern Cross tank looks like... a box.

[Roger]

The Southern Cross tank looks like... a box.

http://history.cookiethievery.com/071904/

[jenius]

I wonder if hovering was used extensively to keep animation costs down...

[Roger]

I wonder if hovering was used extensively to keep animation costs down...

Dude, don't try to excuse the inexcusable.

[Vifam7]

Simply put, the problem with Southern Cross was that the robots (and the show itself) had no flair, detail, or distinguishing characteristics that made it stand out. All of the popular anime robots have that "something" that makes them "cool" and memorable (whether it be the story, action scenes, attention to detail, gimmicks, etc.).

[Roger]

Wait until the sequel (Southern Cross II: The Hovering) come out, you'll change your tune.

[Ginrai]

Well, I think it does have things about it stand out, but the things that make Southern Cross stand out (female lead, well-developed characters, more complex plotting) are also the things that bog it down and make a failure.

[Morpheus]

My image of Southern Cross has been desecrated by the Robotech Heresy, I just couldn't accept huge alien ships which are fueled by flowers and how they violated SDF-1 into a pile of radioactive junk.

I also remember several thing from it, like helicopter in space and the monstrosity known as Logan.

[Lethalzero]

Wait until the sequel (Southern Cross II: The Hovering) come out, you'll change your tune.

[Shun]

It's totally not a happy ending for the humans. What do you think the protozor crap is doing to them? And there's still enough Zor up there to go kill most of them, even all confused.

That's the thing, its really a matter of opinion. Whether the flower seedings in a vast open field will actually affect humans is not mentioned. The story's open ending doesn't really suggest either way.

The Zor left up in space are even of a less concern. Not all Zor are soldiers, and almost all bio-energy were used in that last attack, so they couldn't attack if they wanted to. IIRC the bio-energy also serves to control (brain-wash) the Zor, so without it, the Zor people will be harder to control and organize. And it seems most of the Zor civilians do not wish to fight. Without bio-energy, they will have to land and live on the planet. And co-exist with the humans.

[Ginrai]

That's the thing, its really a matter of opinion. Whether the flower seedings in a vast open field will actually affect humans is not mentioned. The story's open ending doesn't really suggest either way.

The Zor left up in space are even of a less concern. Not all Zor are soldiers, and almost all bio-energy were used in that last attack, so they couldn't attack if they wanted to. IIRC the bio-energy also serves to control (brain-wash) the Zor, so without it, the Zor people will be harder to control and organize. And it seems most of the Zor civilians do not wish to fight. Without bio-energy, they will have to land and live on the planet. And co-exist with the humans.

OR all the ships crash when their orbits decay...

[VF5SS]

The Logan always looked really awkward in the show. It has no waist joint and the big upper body doesn't match the tiny limbs. And what's up with the VF-1D colors?

The Auroran fairs a little better. You don't seen enough space helicopters. in b4 first border brooklyn reg dave gets made at me.

[blacklotus]

First off, thanks to everyone here for their wonderful informative comments. I thought no-one will even bother looking into this thread I create, after seeing the words 'Southern Cross' in the title.

>> To Roger:

I agree with point 2. But I actually love the fact this show's main lead is a teenage lady (Age 17 I believe). It's a nice change from the other big robot/mecha animes of that time, which all have male leads. This is actually what made me watch it in the 1st place. And yes, I'm a straight guy.

Wow! That's a lot of toys that will never see the light of day. There's a 1/48 red bioroid toy produced? I didn't know. Any hope of some pictures? And there's supposed to be poseable Inbit kits for Mospeada too? sigh. I would really love to have those crabs.

Sketchley corrected me on my economic history lesson as well. Thanks. "

>> to totoro242

Thank you. You just reminded me that I have a Lana figure kit stored somewhere in my storeroom. It's been like 20 years already...

>> Vifam7

Ok. I didn't know about the loli-fied stuff or the castoffable Lana toy. Was that toy ever mass-produced? It will probably be one of the 1st castoffable toys, and beat the recent Queens Blade stuff by about 2 decades.

>> Shun

The nekkid shower scenes appear in the early episodes. And yeah, I remember the Aisha skinny dipping scene too from Mospeada. And yes, it was shown on Singapore national TV to children on Saturday as well.

Now that I recall, I believe Singapore showed all 3 animes (Macross, SC and Mospeada) in both versions, the Mandarin channel one has the original Japanese storylines, while on the English channel, we have the Harmony Gold Robotech version.

>> to kamikaze_kamujin

Yes, now I've seen it all. A Japanese Robotech fansite. I never knew these existed. Thanks. Note: This is not a criticism of the fan. More of a criticism of myself for my own narrow-mindedness.

>> to Roger again

I think subconsciously, I love the show is because of the huge amounts of hovering, since I do have a mild OCD with regards to cleanliness.

>> VF5SS

Thanks. Ahh...so that's the Logan. I actually have no idea what a SC Logan is until you posted that clip (unless one's talking about the sci-fi novel/show Logan's Run)

Again, a big thanks to everyone.

Edited January 6, 2009 by blacklotus

[Totoro242]

Wow! That's a lot of toys that will never see the light of day. There's a 1/48 red bioroid toy produced? I didn't know. Any hope of some pictures? Sketchley corrected me on my economic history lesson as well. Thanks. "

Ok. I didn't know about the loli-fied stuff or the castoffable Lana toy. Was that toy ever mass-produced? It will probably be one of the 1st castoffable toys, and beat the recent Queens Blade stuff by about 2 decades.

The 1/48 Bioroid and Lana are model kits not toys. No toys were produced officially. The bad bootlegged Lana is hideous and not really mentionable.

[RavenHawk]

The 1/48 Bioroid and Lana are model kits not toys. No toys were produced officially. The bad bootlegged Lana is hideous and not really mentionable.

Well, there was the Matchbox Logan, though it transformed to "guardian" mode (or whatever it was called in Southern Cross) but not into a box, er, I mean tank.

[Totoro242]

Well, there was the Matchbox Logan, though it transformed to "guardian" mode (or whatever it was called in Southern Cross) but not into a box, er, I mean tank.

It was the Hover Tank that Matchbox made and Blacklotus specifically said earlier in the thread that he wanted to know about Southern Cross, not Robotech

[taksraven]

Well, as I said when we reviewed Southern Cross on Destroy All Podcasts, the show is an interesting failure. Perhaps it was too ambitious for its own good. Some of the mecha are pretty unique ideas (the Spartas is pretty cool even if the cruising mode stupidly doesn't even cover the pilot in a canopy, the space helicoptor Auroran is cool), having a woman as the lead (or three women as leads if you like, since Jeanne, Lana, and Marie are a trinity) is pretty unique, and the show's focus on character development as the resulting slower pace are all nice twists on the real robot genre, but it was Tatsunoko trying to do a Super Dimension show entirely in house without using Studio Nue, Artmic, or any other design houses and maybe that was part of their problem.

There really aren't Japanese toys for Southern Cross, just models, so you are kind of stuck unless you want to get the Robotech toys. I actually think the Robotech Spartas is pretty cool, for what it's worth.

If you are watching Southern Cross and not Robotech, you will probably realize in the last episode they only defeated one Zor ship and there's a whole fleet left in space around Gloire.

For once I agree with you and I think that "interesting failure" is a good way to define the series. There were some fantastic mecha designs (as well as some godawful ones) and it was good to see female leads in the show (maybe a more positive male lead would have helped, most in the series came across as twits)

It did have an incredibly dark ending that was only slightly reflected in Robotech and it was pretty clear that they did intend to have a much more epic scope for the series.

The other factor that I think really hurt the series was a lot of poor quality animation. When the show was animated well it was good, but when an episode was outsourced it was virtually unwatchable. (The original Macross series suffered from similar problems)

Maybe its time for a remake?

Taksraven

[Ginrai]

The other factor that I think really hurt the series was a lot of poor quality animation. When the show was animated well it was good, but when an episode was outsourced it was virtually unwatchable. (The original Macross series suffered from similar problems)

The animation is way more consistent than Macross, that's for sure.

[taksraven]

My image of Southern Cross has been desecrated by the Robotech Heresy, I just couldn't accept huge alien ships which are fueled by flowers and how they violated SDF-1 into a pile of radioactive junk.

I also remember several thing from it, like helicopter in space and the monstrosity known as Logan.

The Robotech novels had this brilliant (groan) explanation for the mysterious three mounds seen in Southern Cross that still makes me chuckle today. One mound contained the remains of the SDF-1. Another mound contained the ruins of Khyrons ship (yeah right). And the THIRD mound contained.....wait for it.......the remains of the SDF-2!!!!! Hahahahahahaha.

In fact, the novels are funny in that way, giving descriptions in the Macross volumes of how the newly constructed SDF-2 was back to back with the SDF-1 in the hole in Macross City. And you sit there thinking, "What are these guys on!!!??"

Taksraven

[taksraven]

The animation is way more consistent than Macross, that's for sure.

If by that you mean fewer really badly animated episodes, I agree.

Taksraven

[Ginrai]

If by that you mean fewer really badly animated episodes, I agree.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

[blacklotus]

The other factor that I think really hurt the series was a lot of poor quality animation. When the show was animated well it was good, but when an episode was outsourced it was virtually unwatchable. (The original Macross series suffered from similar problems)

Maybe its time for a remake?

Taksraven

Thanks for this bit of trivia. I didn't know Macross TV series was also outsourced. No wonder the quality isn't consistent. Some were great, but others look like crap. I was like "Is that Minmay and Hikaru?"

[jenius]

The shuttles in Southern Cross always made me scratch my head. They looked like something from the early 80s but at the same time the military had giant space cruisers and transformable hovering tanks.

[taksraven]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

Oh god, we agree about something, does that mean that these dudes are about to arrive?

;)

Taksraven