No Love for Southern Cross?

[Podtastic]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They did reopen, but they're still very much the borderline ghost town they were before the old site went down.

 

Yeah, back in '07-'08 there was a back to back pair of big dustups where the volunteer moderators went on banning sprees which ended up largely depopulated the site.  What started it was the fandom's overwhelmingly negative response to the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles "movie".  The ensuing deluge of criticism prompted the volunteer mods there to assert that non-constructive criticism was tantamount to a personal attack on the movie's staff and start handing out bans, and since "constructive criticism" was more a code word for "effusive praise" the bans flowed like water.  

It got worse after fans started asking pointed questions about the Macross legal situation when HG announced that the proposed live action movie was going to be a reimagined "Macross Saga".  The volunteer mods dispensed a huge amount of inaccurate and generally malicious misinformation and then banned anyone who corrected them, claiming the corrections had caused them "pain and suffering".

The forum's rules were usually OK with legit Japanese non-HG-licensed merch being talked about, but grey market stuff like Cap's models would have been right out.

I can see why that would have depopulated the site. If this becomes just about valkyries and humans then this forum is of no use to me.

I know this is Macrossworld but the whole HG/Robotech hatred schlep just irritates me - I'm not from North America how are they gonna stop me buying Macross stuff from Japan?

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Podtastic

[RavenHawk]

6 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

I can see why that would have depopulated the site. If this becomes just about valkyries and humans then this forum is of no use to me.

I know this is Macrossworld but the whole HG/Robotech hatred schlep just irritates me - I'm not from North America how are they gonna stop me buying Macross stuff from Japan?

 

I used to go on there around 2002 or so, chat with people, made some friends. I remember at one point this one new person signed up, and started just being an absolute troll. Always types in ALL CAPS, picked fights with people, made idiotic statements, got banned, came back, did more of the same.

I left shortly thereafter.

Went back on recently just to have a look around. Same guy is there, and is apparently now a moderator.

 

As for the HG license, the basics of it are that they have rights to markets outside of Japan; however, legally, they should still be able to stop retailers from importing to Japan and then reselling elsewhere. There are multiple other threads about the HG thing, so probably not worth going into here.

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

I can see why that would have depopulated the site. 

That the Shadow Chronicles movie met with near-universal disgust from the fans kind of helped speed the blow... you could've fit all the people who had nice things to say about the movie into a single family sedan and probably have seats leftover.

 

30 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

I know this is Macrossworld but the whole HG/Robotech hatred schlep just irritates me - I'm not from North America how are they gonna stop me buying Macross stuff from Japan?

*sigh*  Engage your brain for a bit, eh?  This is not a complex issue by any stretch of the imagination.

True, Harmony Gold can't stop Macross fans from buying Macross goods directly from Japan... but the online stores catering to export sales are a relatively recent market innovation and international shipping costs significantly increase the price of already-expensive collectibles.  This might not be an insurmountable obstacle for the dedicated toy collector, but by preventing regional distributors from licensing and localizing Macross works they've effectively locked western fans out of 99% of Macross material.  Without fan translators and their grey market efforts, only three Macross shows (SDF, II, Plus) and one manga (II) would be available to western fans under Harmony Gold's embargo.  Even with fan translators hard at work, only the animation and a tiny fraction of the print materials have been made available in a language other than Japanese.

THAT is why Macross fans have no time for Robotech or HG.  HG is standing between us and getting proper localizations of all this Macross material, all in the name of protecting a creatively bankrupt brand that was never really successful to begin with.  It's like if Star Wars movies could only be screened or sold in China because of threats of litigation from a cheap knockoff toy line called "Space Wars" that is sold exclusively in drug stores.

 

19 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I used to go on there around 2002 or so, chat with people, made some friends. I remember at one point this one new person signed up, and started just being an absolute troll. Always types in ALL CAPS, picked fights with people, made idiotic statements, got banned, came back, did more of the same.

It says a lot about that place that I can't narrow that down to more than two or three dozen people...

 

19 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Went back on recently just to have a look around. Same guy is there, and is apparently now a moderator.

... if you mean MEMO, he's one of the mods responsible for the aforementioned mass bannings.

[Convectuoso]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That the Shadow Chronicles movie met with near-universal disgust from the fans kind of helped speed the blow... you could've fit all the people who had nice things to say about the movie into a single family sedan and probably have seats leftover.

 

*sigh*  Engage your brain for a bit, eh?  This is not a complex issue by any stretch of the imagination.

True, Harmony Gold can't stop Macross fans from buying Macross goods directly from Japan... but the online stores catering to export sales are a relatively recent market innovation and international shipping costs significantly increase the price of already-expensive collectibles.  This might not be an insurmountable obstacle for the dedicated toy collector, but by preventing regional distributors from licensing and localizing Macross works they've effectively locked western fans out of 99% of Macross material.  Without fan translators and their grey market efforts, only three Macross shows (SDF, II, Plus) and one manga (II) would be available to western fans under Harmony Gold's embargo.  Even with fan translators hard at work, only the animation and a tiny fraction of the print materials have been made available in a language other than Japanese.

THAT is why Macross fans have no time for Robotech or HG.  HG is standing between us and getting proper localizations of all this Macross material, all in the name of protecting a creatively bankrupt brand that was never really successful to begin with.  It's like if Star Wars movies could only be screened or sold in China because of threats of litigation from a cheap knockoff toy line called "Space Wars" that is sold exclusively in drug stores.

 

It says a lot about that place that I can't narrow that down to more than two or three dozen people...

 

... if you mean MEMO, he's one of the mods responsible for the aforementioned mass bannings.

I remember that guy. Behaved as if he owned the place 

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

... if you mean MEMO, he's one of the mods responsible for the aforementioned mass bannings.

That would be the one. Like a socially- and learning-disabled child, amped up on too much sugar, with delusions of grandeur. Seeing that he had been made a moderator was all that I needed to see.

[captain america]

Changing gears slightly, Southern Cross finally gets some modeling love!

[sh9000]

4.25” Dana figure coming summer 2019.

[Convectuoso]

30 minutes ago, sh9000 said:

4.25” Dana figure coming summer 2019.

Seems like the only Southern Cross to be released, since Maas Toys completely disappeared. 

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, Convectuoso said:

Seems like the only Southern Cross to be released, since Maas Toys completely disappeared. 

Their entire business model is crowdfunding-based... it seems likely they were informed by HG that crowdfunding was prohibited for their license. lol

[captain america]

36 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Their entire business model is crowdfunding-based... it seems likely they were informed by HG that crowdfunding was prohibited for their license. lol

But have they simply gone into low-key production or dropped the line altogether? That's what I'd like to know...

[tekering]

2 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

Seems like the only Southern Cross to be released, since Maas Toys completely disappeared. 

Kitz Concept displayed a 1:12 "Dana" figure last year:

[Big s]

I’d be way more excited if she had the armor with removable helmet.

[Tober]

44 minutes ago, Big s said:

I’d be way more excited if she had the armor with removable helmet.

They have announced an armored version too, but no prototype yet. 

[Big s]

I think I’ve probably mentioned it a few times too many that I love the armor suits from this series. Both for the good guys and enemies. It would also be cool to see in scale hover bikes.

[Convectuoso]

12 hours ago, tekering said:

Kitz Concept displayed a 1:12 "Dana" figure last year:

True. I had completely forgotten about it 

[Old_Nash]

15 hours ago, sh9000 said:

4.25” Dana figure coming summer 2019.

Future Robotech comic cover?
XD

[easnoddy]

Didn't know "Dana Sterling" was a Gerwalk.

[Podtastic]

16 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

Seems like the only Southern Cross to be released, since Maas Toys completely disappeared. 

What exactly do you mean? Is there confirmation that MAAS toys is no longer producing the planned Southern Cross merchandise? 

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, Podtastic said:

What exactly do you mean? Is there confirmation that MAAS toys is no longer producing the planned Southern Cross merchandise? 

MAAS Toys inexplicably went silent after January 15th.  They just suddenly stopped responding to Facebook posts, and haven't posted anything new to their social media pages or the group's official website since then.  There is no clear reason for the sudden silence that has apparently gone unbroken for five weeks now.  They removed all references to the planned Kickstarter campaign to fund production of the toys from the news posts, and the target date (February 1st) came and went without a word.

Annoyingly, instead of there being no fodder for theorizing about why, there is instead far too many possible reasons.  Did their previous financial difficulties from their attempt to go solo from crowdfunding sites wound the company too deeply?  Did Harmony Gold yank their license over their announced plans to crowdfund the toy?  Did partnering with Harmony Gold paint a target on them for Hasbro and Takara-Tomy, whose IP they were making unlicensed merch of?  Did they fall victim to a voodoo shark?  Who can say?

Edited February 21, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Mazinger]

24 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Annoyingly, instead of there being no fodder for theorizing about why, there is instead far too many possible reasons.  Did their previous financial difficulties from their attempt to go solo from crowdfunding sites wound the company too deeply?  Did Harmony Gold yank their license over their announced plans to crowdfund the toy?  Did partnering with Harmony Gold paint a target on them for Hasbro and Takara-Tomy, whose IP they were making unlicensed merch of?  Did they fall victim to a voodoo shark?  Who can say?

Did they take umbrage at the suggested changes to the design, like those the came from members of this forums?

Sad if that was the case. 

[jenius]

It's probably just being done as a hobby and other obligations are currently more pressing... Life happens.

[RavenHawk]

23 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

Did they take umbrage at the suggested changes to the design, like those the came from members of this forums?

Sad if that was the case. 

Seems unlikely. They're experienced at ignoring feedback they don't like.

 

8 minutes ago, jenius said:

It's probably just being done as a hobby and other obligations are currently more pressing... Life happens.

It's definitely possible, though my understanding is that their team do this professionally, for a living. Some of their projects have been done as a hobby, with hopes of them turning into profit makers, while the rest of their projects are paid for with the full intent of being a revenue stream.

In this case, my suspicion (just a guess, really) is that it was some combination of a few factors. Maybe they did not get the positive glowing feedback that they have come to expect from their more devoted customer base, HG took issue with the crowdfunding approach and so they had to pull everything (which, if it's the case, would be foolish of them for not getting this nailed down beforehand), they jumped the gun in assuming HG was going to give them a license before all of the final numbers and details were agreed upon, or they have legitimately gone back to the drawing board on this and prefer to delete any references to version 1.

 

EDIT:

Just checked FB, and the pictures are all still up, just silence since 1/15 (as was mentioned). So... uh... who knows?

Edited February 21, 2019 by RavenHawk
Checked FB

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

In this case, my suspicion (just a guess, really) is that it was some combination of a few factors. Maybe they did not get the positive glowing feedback that they have come to expect from their more devoted customer base, HG took issue with the crowdfunding approach and so they had to pull everything (which, if it's the case, would be foolish of them for not getting this nailed down beforehand), they jumped the gun in assuming HG was going to give them a license before all of the final numbers and details were agreed upon, or they have legitimately gone back to the drawing board on this and prefer to delete any references to version 1.

Well, at the very least we can promote "HG took issue with the crowdfunding" to a highly probable suspicion.

Several of the little indie outfits that HG has sold licenses to since the Palladium Books Kickstarter fiasco have openly stated that one of the terms of the license was a ban on the use of crowdfunding for products produced under that license.  I wouldn't ordinarily credit a business with the level of idiocy necessary to sign a contract without reading it, but MAAS Toys is kind of a fly-by-night grey market outfit after all.  How an indie outfit that lives and dies by the Kickstarter ended up signing a licensing agreement with a company that's death on the whole idea of crowdfunding after two major Kickstarter fiascos is a mystery.   

Perhaps the silence is MAAS Toys doing what Palladium Books was frantically doing right before the end... frantically running around trying to find someone, anyone, willing to cut the company a loan big enough to move forward with production without funds from a Kickstarter.

EDIT: I suppose it would, at least, be oddly appropriate for the first company to take a whack at licensing Southern Cross to live and die by the same sort of over-the-top poor judgement that dogged the creation of the series itself from its inception to its cancellation.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[RavenHawk]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I wouldn't ordinarily credit a business with the level of idiocy necessary to sign a contract without reading it, but MAAS Toys is kind of a fly-by-night grey market outfit after all.  How an indie outfit that lives and dies by the Kickstarter ended up signing a licensing agreement with a company that's death on the whole idea of crowdfunding after two major Kickstarter fiascos is a mystery. 

The situation is odd, really, for more than just the above reasons. These types of companies aren't really even gray market. Their business models are essentially heavily based on (strongly arguably) trademark and copyright infringement, and they get by through (in my opinion) being small enough to not be worth the hassle of pursuing in combination with a degree of anonymity as to their actual ownership. I may be wrong, and maybe it's all just "it's good for our reputation to let you keep infringing", but that seems unlikely due to the potential trademark risks associated with that. I suspect it's mostly just a "you're not worth the litigation expenses". Signing a licensing deal with a more visible company seems risky.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

The situation is odd, really, for more than just the above reasons. [...] Their business models are essentially heavily based on (strongly arguably) trademark and copyright infringement, [...]

Granted, but as long as they're not actively hurting the market for an existing product (e.g. bootlegging) they're still technically grey market rather than black.

(Mind you, when you put it like that it's not terribly surprising that MAAS Toys might find a kindred spirit with Harmony Gold's Robotech brand, trademark squatter and copyright infringer extraordinaire.)

 

13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

[...] and they get by through (in my opinion) being small enough to not be worth the hassle of pursuing in combination with a degree of anonymity as to their actual ownership. I may be wrong, and maybe it's all just "it's good for our reputation to let you keep infringing", but that seems unlikely due to the potential trademark risks associated with that. I suspect it's mostly just a "you're not worth the litigation expenses".

That's why I posed the possibility of MAAS Toys having made itself a target for Hasbro by partnering with Harmony Gold USA.

MAAS Toys has, as its bread and butter, a business in designing and manufacturing unlicensed Transformers toys.  Becoming a licensee of a company that has sent no small number of legal threats and absurd demands for restitution to the owners of the Transformers brand may have officially promoted them to "worth the expense of suing".  Or, if it isn't that, there's always the possibility that they're facing unrelated pressure from the industry's recent push to shut down internet counterfeit and grey market operations that Bandai started by going after all the different makers of counterfeit gunpla.

 

13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Signing a licensing deal with a more visible company seems risky.

As I'd remarked in the thread about the Spartas, my suspicion as to MAAS's motives was that they were seeking legitimacy.  Namely, that MAAS Toys wanted to graduate from doing dubious business in unlicensed Transformers toys to being a legitimate toy design firm, and possibly saw the dirt cheap Southern Cross license as their ticket to greater things since it was within their means and so underexploited that they could distinguish themselves simply by making something for it regardless of quality.  Since they planned to crowdfund it, it would have been a plan with near-zero risk since Robotech fans will generally buy anything regardless of quality and they could get the license for a song.

[captain america]

39 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

The situation is odd, really, for more than just the above reasons. These types of companies aren't really even gray market. Their business models are essentially heavily based on (strongly arguably) trademark and copyright infringement, and they get by through (in my opinion) being small enough to not be worth the hassle of pursuing in combination with a degree of anonymity as to their actual ownership. I may be wrong, and maybe it's all just "it's good for our reputation to let you keep infringing", but that seems unlikely due to the potential trademark risks associated with that. I suspect it's mostly just a "you're not worth the litigation expenses". Signing a licensing deal with a more visible company seems risky.

No. What happens if you don't take action against someone infringing on your copyright/trademark is that it sets a precedent in the alleged violator's favor: you defend it or you lose it. There are procedures in place ranging from an email, to a form letter and so on, depending on the situation, but they most certainly don't just let things slide.

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, but as long as they're not actively hurting the market for an existing product (e.g. bootlegging) they're still technically grey market rather than black.

Well, gray market goods are generally still authentic licensed products, just not sold through the approved channels (i.e. a Japan-only product being sold in the USA), but I get that that's not your point.

 

56 minutes ago, captain america said:

No. What happens if you don't take action against someone infringing on your copyright/trademark is that it sets a precedent in the alleged violator's favor: you defend it or you lose it. There are procedures in place ranging from an email, to a form letter and so on, depending on the situation, but they most certainly don't just let things slide.

When it comes to trademarks, that's not exactly the case. The issue isn't about precedent in one specific infringer's case, but rather in weakening the trademark. A trademark that is not enforced can later be invalidated by, potentially, anyone. That is one big companies often will send a cease & desist letter to small infringers, including charities, and then offer to license the mark to them for a nominal fee. It is part of the obligation of policing your mark, as well as insuring quality. Copyright enforcement isn't quite the same situation, and there it can be a matter of not pursuing an infringer on one copyright infringement does not necessarily carry over or benefit other infringers.

[JetJockey]

17 hours ago, tekering said:

Kitz Concept displayed a 1:12 "Dana" figure last year:

I don't think I remember seeing this prototype. Body sculpt looks good. If she looks good I would get her. Any pictures of this company's previous Robotech figures?

 

Also I hate it when companies promote stuff and disappear. We should know something about that hovertank by now.

[captain america]

42 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

When it comes to trademarks, that's not exactly the case. The issue isn't about precedent in one specific infringer's case, but rather in weakening the trademark. A trademark that is not enforced can later be invalidated by, potentially, anyone. That is one big companies often will send a cease & desist letter to small infringers, including charities, and then offer to license the mark to them for a nominal fee. It is part of the obligation of policing your mark, as well as insuring quality. Copyright enforcement isn't quite the same situation, and there it can be a matter of not pursuing an infringer on one copyright infringement does not necessarily carry over or benefit other infringers.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, jenius said:

It's probably just being done as a hobby and other obligations are currently more pressing... Life happens.

Aren't they based in China?

Ergo, other pressing obligations would be Chinese New Year? (the busiest travel period of the year)

[jenius]

I thought they were Russian.

[Seto Kaiba]

57 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Aren't they based in China?

Their manufacturing is all done in China, but they seem to be understandably close-lipped about where precisely MAAS Toys itself is based for obvious reasons.

The one Kickstarter of theirs that I could find gives a location of Louisville, KY.  One of their previous collaborators has a YouTube video posted on their site wherein he gives his location as Maryland.  It's a little hard to tell through the mask he's wearing, but his accent sounds either standard midwestern or New England.  The prices in their site store and on their Kickstarters are all in US Dollars as well.

They would appear to be Americans, though possibly based in different locations and collaborating over the internet (since the modeling is all they do and that's all digital anyway).

If it were a simple matter of taking off for a holiday like the Chinese New Year, you'd expect them to mention it at some point... or do a social media post for the holiday, not just randomly go silent for five weeks and counting starting almost three weeks before the holiday.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[jenius]

Seems to be more evidence that this is an ambitious hobby.

[RavenHawk]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Their manufacturing is all done in China, but they seem to be understandably close-lipped about where precisely MAAS Toys itself is based for obvious reasons.

The one Kickstarter of theirs that I could find gives a location of Louisville, KY.  One of their previous collaborators has a YouTube video posted on their site wherein he gives his location as Maryland.  It's a little hard to tell through the mask he's wearing, but his accent sounds either standard midwestern or New England.  The prices in their site store and on their Kickstarters are all in US Dollars as well.

They would appear to be Americans, though possibly based in different locations and collaborating over the internet (since the modeling is all they do and that's all digital anyway).

If it were a simple matter of taking off for a holiday like the Chinese New Year, you'd expect them to mention it at some point... or do a social media post for the holiday, not just randomly go silent for five weeks and counting starting almost three weeks before the holiday.

I believe that definitely one, and possibly two, of their designers are based in Australia. From what I can tell from various posts, videos, and comments made about conventions, the design team (which basically comes up with the looks of the toys and general transformation guidelines) is in English-speaking countries, and then manufacturing (and final designs and transformation details) are done by a handful of Chinese factories.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, jenius said:

Seems to be more evidence that this is an ambitious hobby.

Or, depending on your perspective, a legally precarious criminal enterprise.