No Love for Southern Cross?

[Seto Kaiba]

45 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I'm interested to hear more about this. What exactly was said exactly? Was there more said?

Unfortunately, there's not really anything more to say.  

One of the most frustrating things about Southern Cross is that the show's creators put very little effort into developing the setting.  The few magazine articles, leaflets, and the one artbook the series got explain virtually nothing, and the few things that do get explained almost never get an explanation longer than a single unqualified sentence.  It's way beyond the level where some shows just say "x many missiles", only the Spartas has even the most cursory stats and the vast majority don't even have names.  

The line in question was a single-sentence statement in part of an advertising leaflet for the series which talked about the mecha.  All it had to say, besides some very basic statements about the Logan and Auroran's alt-modes, is that the Logan was only an annoyance to the Zor.  The Auroran's similarly basic description mentions only that the Logan wasn't able to oppose the Zor advance and was being replaced by the Auroran as a result.  Everything else on the leaflet is a statement of the blindingly obvious, like that fighter forms are good for high-speed travel and dogfighting.

(It was less disappointing than the other mecha magazine insert I worked on, which was one long series of sucker-punches for anyone hoping for info on the background mecha.)

[CoryHolmes]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:27 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Kind of seems insulting toward the original works, all of which were shooting for themes of understanding.

Engh, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree   I always felt that Macross' perfect ending was a tad sour and not to my liking, so seeing how things degenerated in Robotech is more my style.  I think the fact that the Earth is actually worse off at the start of each generation makes the big payoff at the end of New Generation just a bit better.

 

But!  That's just my opinion, and I've known that my opinions are often unpopular when it comes to popular media (BSG isn't that good, Firefly is better off cancelled, Dark Knight Trilogy is overrated...)  

[JetJockey]

I believe I have all the Robotech novels still boxed up. Even the Sentinel books. I know I sold the Sentinels comics though. But I have an almost complete collection of Robotech Macross, Southern Cross, and New Generation comics.

 

Perhaps I should reread the novels one day to see how they handled the backstory. At the time I thought they were good.

[CoryHolmes]

I thought the novels were a decent *ahem* novelization of the cartoon.  They fleshed out some ideas, invented their own to fill in the many many plot holes, and were overall a decent read.

 

Avoid anything that isn't a direct reference to the show.  The Sentinels novels and comics are especially atrocious. 

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

Engh, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree   I always felt that Macross' perfect ending was a tad sour and not to my liking, so seeing how things degenerated in Robotech is more my style.  I think the fact that the Earth is actually worse off at the start of each generation makes the big payoff at the end of New Generation just a bit better.

Not sure what perfect ending you're referring to... Macross's original ending was pretty damned bittersweet.  By the end of Ep36 the vast majority of Earth's population is dead, the planet itself is a wreck that'll take tens of thousands of years to repair, the planetary capital is in flames, the titular warship is a wreck, and Minmay gets dumped.  (I know that last one's kind of "Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking", but it still counts as this is a romance series.)  The adaptation takes that up a notch in darkness by having the Macross irrecoverably destroyed, most of the cast killed, and the city irreversibly contaminated to the point that they had to abandon it, but that's still small potatoes compared to what was already in the original.

Granted, the bowdlerized rewrite makes that the first step in a protracted humiliation conga for Earth, but there isn't a big payoff at the end either.  Earth may not be as much of a wreck as it was, but there's been a total societal and economic collapse, the only remaining government is an exclusively military fascist nightmare right out of Warhammer 40,000, the invading aliens took pity on humanity and prevented a self-inflicted genocide (or maybe just didn't want to be one-upped), the love story ends with the male lead being unable to get past a case of fantastic racism, and within hours they're at war with someone else.  There's no happily-ever-after or other uplifting payoff there... the best case scenario is Mad Max with more greenery.

I'm not honestly sure if the adaptation's version of Southern Cross's ending is less of a sucker punch than the original.  Instead of the idiot protagonists screwing up by shooting the one guy who could land the bloody ship and causing the Zor Lords to win the war posthumously by turning everyone on Glorie into Zor, the idiot protagonists screw up and accidentally turn Earth into a paradise for a genocidal alien race who regard humans as vermin or dumb animals.  (Either way it's kind of a firm "F-you" from the writers to the audience, though I guess in the latter case it's only delivered by proxy.)

 

 

11 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I believe I have all the Robotech novels still boxed up. Even the Sentinel books. I know I sold the Sentinels comics though. But I have an almost complete collection of Robotech Macross, Southern Cross, and New Generation comics.

 

Perhaps I should reread the novels one day to see how they handled the backstory. At the time I thought they were good.

... kill it with fire.

Preferably napalm.  Or white phosphorous if you can get it.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[JetJockey]

I wonder if either Prime 1 Studio or Kids Logic will try to make something from Southern Cross? They both have large scale pieces for Macross and New Generation. They don't seem to be selling out quickly with I think the exception of the cockpit from Kids Logic. They should attempt a hovertank statue. I would take that over the Cyclone and Veritech statues they have since we get so little from Southern Cross. They could do the bunny exclusive that Dana did in that one episode.

[Big s]

With the recent bandai figure kits like the Starwars storm troopers and armored characters, the product I would die for would be armored characters from southern cross. I know it’s just a dream, but imagine that level of cool with a hover bike to go wit it. I do also like the mecha from the series and hope one day some new products come out, maybe at least minipla.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I wonder if either Prime 1 Studio or Kids Logic will try to make something from Southern Cross? They both have large scale pieces for Macross and New Generation. They don't seem to be selling out quickly with I think the exception of the cockpit from Kids Logic.

It's highly unlikely, IMO.

Harmony Gold's licensees have historically used the drop in buyer interest between their Robotech-branded Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA merchandise to gauge the potential ROI for continuing on to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross.  Past performance from licensees like Toynami established a base level of interest in MOSPEADA-based merch at less than 1/3^* of their Macross-based offerings.  With the prospect of even lower demand for Southern Cross-based merch and higher development costs for Southern Cross-based toys due to having to start from scratch instead of copying Japanese toy designs, they usually throw in the towel at New Generation stuff.

If anyone's gonna come out of left field and license Southern Cross, it's gonna be Evolution Toy.  I may be misreading them, but they seem to like betting on underdogs and dark horses.

 

 

1. Slack demand for New Generation MPCs saw Toynami slash its production runs of Robotech Masterpiece Collection toys from 15,000 to just 5,000 units before terminating the Robotech Masterpiece Collection line altogether.  Harmony Gold is still sitting on unsold inventory of several of them in their warehouse, a decade after they were released.

[jenius]

I think the third is probably high given there was less saturation but Scott made it to 7k MPCs in the non scientific "who has the highest production number" poll I did on my site.

[JetJockey]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's highly unlikely, IMO.

Harmony Gold's licensees have historically used the drop in buyer interest between their Robotech-branded Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA merchandise to gauge the potential ROI for continuing on to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross.  Past performance from licensees like Toynami established a base level of interest in MOSPEADA-based merch at less than 1/3^* of their Macross-based offerings.  With the prospect of even lower demand for Southern Cross-based merch and higher development costs for Southern Cross-based toys due to having to start from scratch instead of copying Japanese toy designs, they usually throw in the towel at New Generation stuff.

If anyone's gonna come out of left field and license Southern Cross, it's gonna be Evolution Toy.  I may be misreading them, but they seem to like betting on underdogs and dark horses.

 

 

1. Slack demand for New Generation MPCs saw Toynami slash its production runs of Robotech Masterpiece Collection toys from 15,000 to just 5,000 units before terminating the Robotech Masterpiece Collection line altogether.  Harmony Gold is still sitting on unsold inventory of several of them in their warehouse, a decade after they were released.

I can't believe that would be their business plan for statues though. If it is, it seems faulty. Or just dumb. I get starting with what is I assume most popular in the Macross part of Robotech. But going to New Generation and then saying, that didn't sell that well enough or there was a drop in sales, so we won't make Southern Cross is crazy. Some people want a complete line of toys or in this case statues.

 

At least with statues so far, Prime 1 Studio has two versions of the veritech. I would bet Robotech fans would take a statue version of one robot from each series. Kids Logic did the Cyclone in Armor mode. They also have the SDF-1. Who knows how these contracts work. I just looked around the Robotech store and didn't notice anything from Southern Cross besides some trinkets. So maybe there is some reason why no one is making items from the series. Either Robotech or official Japanese versions.

 

I just know if I setup the contract with Prime 1 Studio, it would be Macross, Southern Cross, and New Generation versions of each main robot. The Evangelion pieces look far better than the Robotech ones. I think there are three of those. I've only seen a few Evangelion episodes so far. So I don't get the popularity of it yet.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, jenius said:

I think the third is probably high given there was less saturation but Scott made it to 7k MPCs in the non scientific "who has the highest production number" poll I did on my site.

IIRC, the Scott Bernard MPC was made between the two reductions Toynami made to the Robotech MPC limited edition run sizes.  After the cut from 15,000 to 10,000 but before the run size was further reduced to 5,000.  (Then again, I've also heard it said that the MPC line's average performance was about 1/2 of the limited edition run in actual sales.)

 

 

2 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I can't believe that would be their business plan for statues though. If it is, it seems faulty. Or just dumb. I get starting with what is I assume most popular in the Macross part of Robotech. But going to New Generation and then saying, that didn't sell that well enough or there was a drop in sales, so we won't make Southern Cross is crazy. Some people want a complete line of toys or in this case statues.

It makes perfect sense from a business perspective.  These companies are not fans, they're buying these licenses because they want to make a profit selling merchandise.  

They start with Super Dimension Fortress Macross because that's far and away the most popular of Robotech's component shows, and therefore offers the best return on investment.  Then they move on to Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, which was something of a distant second in popularity and for which demand is not as strong, and the return on investment is lower.  From there, there's the option to move on to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross... but its very small following among the Robotech fandom, being in fourth or fifth place in overall popularity, means there's no guarantee of a decent return on investment.  It's a risk, and since profit margins on these limited edition collectibles aren't huge to begin with the manufacturers are inclined to be risk averse.  (It sounds cynical, and it absolutely is, but that's just how this kind of merchandise speculation works.)

I mean, look at what happened when we tried to crowdfund Moscato Southern Cross kits for the Spartas and Auroran.  Despite a concerted effort to rustle up interest on Facebook and several other forums, we only managed to get about half of the minimum number of pledges (30) to get either design made, and that was with many backers pledging for both.

What Southern Cross needs is for some brave or reckless licensee to actually take a stab at it and, by success or failure, test out the validity of the officially-held view of Southern Cross merchandising.

 

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Who knows how these contracts work.

If what previous Harmony Gold licensees have said about their contracts is any indication, Harmony Gold usually makes licensees buy the rights to the whole of Robotech in whatever field of merchandise they want to make and then basically leaves deciding the actual product line to them.  That was actually the cause of Palladium Books's first loss of the Robotech license, when HG made it a requirement for renewal that they license Robotech 3000 sight-unseen in addition to the three main sagas and Sentinels.  

 

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I just looked around the Robotech store and didn't notice anything from Southern Cross besides some trinkets. So maybe there is some reason why no one is making items from the series. Either Robotech or official Japanese versions.

I'm not idly speculating, I'm pretty much reiterating what we've heard on the matter from current and former HG staff.

Licensees aren't delving into Southern Cross on the American/Robotech side because they don't think there's enough interest for a decent return on investment.  That's the reason that was given for Toynami not doing any Southern Cross toys.

In Japan, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross is pretty obscure... more a piece of obscure trivia than a well-remembered piece of 80's pop culture.  As it was put to me, Tatsunoko barely remembers that they own Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and would likely have forgotten it altogether if not for Robotech.  Press coverage of the show has been basically nonexistant since its cancellation.  (The only time I've seen it mentioned since was a Macross 10th anniversary feature in B-Club magazine that talked about various shows that were inspired by Macross.)

The Southern Cross trinkets on the Robotech store are CafePress-type stuff... print on demand, and never more than a petty cash loss if it doesn't sell.  It doesn't require anything like the input of cash and effort or the level of risk involved in something like the transformable toys or collectible statues.

Strange Machine Games might delve into Southern Cross if they carry their board game license ahead further, since they're only doing inexpensive cardstock stuff instead of resin/plastic miniatures.  They're also doing a new Robotech RPG, so there'll be a Masters Saga sourcebook covering the adapted form of Southern Cross from them as well.  (At least until HG's license runs out.)

I think our best bet for a Southern Cross collectible is probably Evolution Toy, for the aforementioned reason that they seem to love betting on dark horses and underdogs.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[jenius]

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

IIRC, the Scott Bernard MPC was made between the two reductions Toynami made to the Robotech MPC limited edition run sizes.  After the cut from 15,000 to 10,000 but before the run size was further reduced to 5,000.  (Then again, I've also heard it said that the MPC line's average performance was about 1/2 of the limited edition run in actual sales.)

I seem to recall Roy being available in two waves. I suspect that the original production volume was 10K with a 5K option for the VF-1 toys. For the Alpha they probably went to 5K with a 5K option but chose to produce more of Scott since they knew demand was there. Something that taints the comparison though is the Aoshima release. That eliminated any chance of Toynami pulling the trigger on any additional MPC runs (though, given they performed poorly, I don't think it taints much). Toynami has also failed to pull the trigger on a refreshed MPC made without metal and the 1/60 Alpha they teased at SDCC 2017.... so, no love for New Gen either. Aw man, and I'd still like my Shadow Beta with Synchro cannon.

Back to OP's point, if you're making 15 statues, the fact you can't sell 200 statues shouldn't really matter. The math problem there is that there are 100x times the fans of Macross and these companies are sweating getting preorders in on their super limited statues so, even though it seems like demand makes it a sure bet, from the other side of the fence there's just too much on the line.

There's been a lot of talk about how HG and Tatsunoko are going to have a big falling out in a couple years. They've had some lawsuits and it doesn't seem like they have a very happy relationship. That has people excited. I'm not as optimistic. When you think about Tatsunoko currently getting paid for the rights to Super Dimensional Calvary Southern Cross by a company, when no one else would ever go near it, you start to see why this relationship has endured. 

[JetJockey]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It makes perfect sense from a business perspective.  These companies are not fans, they're buying these licenses because they want to make a profit selling merchandise.  

They start with Super Dimension Fortress Macross because that's far and away the most popular of Robotech's component shows, and therefore offers the best return on investment.  Then they move on to Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, which was something of a distant second in popularity and for which demand is not as strong, and the return on investment is lower.  From there, there's the option to move on to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross... but its very small following among the Robotech fandom, being in fourth or fifth place in overall popularity, means there's no guarantee of a decent return on investment.  It's a risk, and since profit margins on these limited edition collectibles aren't huge to begin with the manufacturers are inclined to be risk averse.  (It sounds cynical, and it absolutely is, but that's just how this kind of merchandise speculation works.)

I mean, look at what happened when we tried to crowdfund Moscato Southern Cross kits for the Spartas and Auroran.  Despite a concerted effort to rustle up interest on Facebook and several other forums, we only managed to get about half of the minimum number of pledges (30) to get either design made, and that was with many backers pledging for both.

 

If what previous Harmony Gold licensees have said about their contracts is any indication, Harmony Gold usually makes licensees buy the rights to the whole of Robotech in whatever field of merchandise they want to make and then basically leaves deciding the actual product line to them.  That was actually the cause of Palladium Books's first loss of the Robotech license, when HG made it a requirement for renewal that they license Robotech 3000 sight-unseen in addition to the three main sagas and Sentinels.  

 

I'm not idly speculating, I'm pretty much reiterating what we've heard on the matter from current and former HG staff.

Licensees aren't delving into Southern Cross on the American/Robotech side because they don't think there's enough interest for a decent return on investment.  That's the reason that was given for Toynami not doing any Southern Cross toys.

In Japan, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross is pretty obscure... more a piece of obscure trivia than a well-remembered piece of 80's pop culture.  As it was put to me, Tatsunoko barely remembers that they own Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and would likely have forgotten it altogether if not for Robotech.  Press coverage of the show has been basically nonexistant since its cancellation.  (The only time I've seen it mentioned since was a Macross 10th anniversary feature in B-Club magazine that talked about various shows that were inspired by Macross.)

The Southern Cross trinkets on the Robotech store are CafePress-type stuff... print on demand, and never more than a petty cash loss if it doesn't sell.  It doesn't require anything like the input of cash and effort or the level of risk involved in something like the transformable toys or collectible statues.

 

Actually it doesn't from a business perspective unless all you care about is profits and not the product you are producing or people you are making it for. And if Harmony Gold doesn't really care either. Because by not finishing a line or group of characters you'll only piss off fans who will most likely remember that the next time you try to sell something. Especially these days with the Internet, people will remember or will be aware. But maybe it is just about profits, that could explain the reason why the statues with the exception of the large cockpits are so lackluster. Especially when you compare them to the other cartoon, movie, and anime releases from Prime 1 Studio and Kids Logic. I know if I setup the statue license at Harmony Gold, it would be for a statue from each segment. I would get an agreement for that before signing the contract. I wouldn't leave it up to the statue company and let fans get disappointed.

 

There were TMNT statues released from Playmates I think back in the 2000s. They thought Leonardo would be popular but still made too many of him. You can get him really cheap these days. They ended up making far less of the last two TMNT statues but still finished the line even with the lower demand because people wanted the full group. Some were upset over the recent Pop Culture Shock TMNT statues and thought why get one if there is a chance that the other characters won't come out. There are tons of examples from other companies like Sideshow Collectibles with fans getting upset about unfinished statue lines. As popular as The Avengers are, I don't think they even finished that group.

 

This shows how little I'm aware of later Robotech shows, but how is Southern Cross fourth or fifth in popularity? I'm only aware of the original Robotech with the three segments. Also The Sentinels but I don't think anyone wants toys or statues from that. Nor consider it part of the original Robotech due to the big difference in animation style. From your post, this is the first time I've heard of Robotech 3000.

 

I never heard about a Southern Cross Kickstarter for kits. I'll do a few searches. Maybe I just don't remember. Perhaps the fact that they were kits is the problem though. Kits are for the major fan or if there isn't another option.

 

Check this out. I think it was on my list to get. I need to get a copy soon.

 

[tekering]

9 hours ago, JetJockey said:

This shows how little I'm aware of later Robotech shows, but how is Southern Cross fourth or fifth in popularity? I'm only aware of the original Robotech with the three segments.

Harmony Gold released "Masterpiece" toys from the Macross Saga and New Generation (and repainted them for Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles releases); Southern Cross toys were deemed unlikely sellers, presumably.

Edited August 14, 2018 by tekering

[JB0]

4 hours ago, JetJockey said:

Actually it doesn't from a business perspective unless all you care about is profits and not the product you are producing or people you are making it for.

There needs to be some chance of actually turning a profit, or you go out of business. Virtually no one makes products they believe they can't sell.

Maybe you can sell a few hundred instead of a few thousand, but...the smaller your production run, the higher your cost per unit. And then you're charging more per unit to recoup those costs. And your limited market got more limited because you just priced someone out of a purchase. Especially since the general attitude is that the less-popular product should cost LESS.

4 hours ago, JetJockey said:

. I know if I setup the statue license at Harmony Gold, it would be for a statue from each segment. I would get an agreement for that before signing the contract. I wouldn't leave it up to the statue company and let fans get disappointed.

That works well if you don't actually want to sign licensing agreements. If I were a manufacturer, I would walk out the instant they told me I was REQUIRED to manufacture products I had no hope of ever selling.

Honestly, with the state Robotech is in currently, I wouldn't sign a contract that required me to do follow-up products within Macross Saga, much less a lead balloon like Southern Cross.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, jenius said:

I seem to recall Roy being available in two waves. I suspect that the original production volume was 10K with a 5K option for the VF-1 toys. For the Alpha they probably went to 5K with a 5K option but chose to produce more of Scott since they knew demand was there.

AFAIK, Toynami's manufacturing orders were done in the form "enough to fill existing preorders + a few hundred extras to sell on and get us to a nice round number to maximize our bulk discount".

I don't recall them ever revising the advertised size of a limited edition run after it was announced... but I confess I didn't pay much attention to the MPC line until the whole "Why we don't make toys for Southern Cross thing first reared its ugly head" around ten or eleven years ago.

 

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Back to OP's point, if you're making 15 statues, the fact you can't sell 200 statues shouldn't really matter.

But we're dealing with the opposite situation to what you're describing.

The manufacturer needs to make and sell X many statues in order to keep the price of the statue at a reasonable level to avoid pricing themselves out of the market and to ensure enough of a profit from the endeavor to make it a viable business proposition.  If they can't be assured of receiving AT LEAST X many orders, it's a waste of their time.  Making fewer means making the individual statues will cost more, requiring the sale price increase to preserve the profit margin and cover manufacturing costs... which means fewer people will be able or willing to buy it, resulting in further scaling back and more cost increases, 30 GOTO 10.

 

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There's been a lot of talk about how HG and Tatsunoko are going to have a big falling out in a couple years. They've had some lawsuits and it doesn't seem like they have a very happy relationship. That has people excited. I'm not as optimistic. When you think about Tatsunoko currently getting paid for the rights to Super Dimensional Calvary Southern Cross by a company, when no one else would ever go near it, you start to see why this relationship has endured. 

They're making very little money on the Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA portions of the license.  That said, there's nothing preventing Tatsunoko from attempting to sell Harmony Gold a renewal for Southern Cross and MOSPEADA only and making a separate deal with Big West over Macross... at least, from Tatsunoko's side.  (That said, they don't seem to be at all happy with Harmony Gold trying to claim, in defiance of copyright law, that they own the designs of either show and can continue using them even after their license expires.)

Since Robotech's merchandising depends almost exclusively on Macross, they're not at all likely to be interested in a renewal that includes only Southern Cross and MOSPEADA.  Robotech will likely fold if they can't renew the Macross license, leaving Southern Cross and MOSPEADA in limbo.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, JetJockey said:

Actually it doesn't from a business perspective unless all you care about is profits and not the product you are producing or people you are making it for.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is surprisingly naive.

None of these companies give a flip about the product they're producing or the fans buying it.  This isn't a fan-run operation, these are corporations that are responsible to their creditors, shareholders, etc.  Like Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, [They're] Only in It for the Money.  They aren't going to carry on with product lines that aren't turning a profit, and they aren't going to gamble by making products they have every reason to expect won't sell.  

 

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And if Harmony Gold doesn't really care either.

That Harmony Gold has not one single f*ck to give was firmly and definitively established a very long time ago.  Their own VP of Marketing has, on many occasions, publicly admitted that management is only interested in the bottom line.  I personally had a shockingly candid conversation with him about updating their website back in '07, in which he told me point-blank that TPTB considered everything that wasn't directly relating to selling merchandise a waste of time and money.

 

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Because by not finishing a line or group of characters you'll only piss off fans who will most likely remember that the next time you try to sell something.

Again, not wishing to be rude, but Southern Cross fans are such a small minority in the Robotech fan community (and borderline nonexistent outside it) that pissing them off is a comically unimpressive prospect.  Doubly so when you consider the Robotech fandom's most vocal Southern Cross fans are best known for frequent temper tantrums.  There'd be little discernible difference from business as usual.

 

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I know if I setup the statue license at Harmony Gold, it would be for a statue from each segment. I would get an agreement for that before signing the contract. I wouldn't leave it up to the statue company and let fans get disappointed.

You'd find very VERY few licensees willing to shell out for a license like that.  No company wants to be railroaded into making unsellable products.

 

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This shows how little I'm aware of later Robotech shows, but how is Southern Cross fourth or fifth in popularity? I'm only aware of the original Robotech with the three segments. Also The Sentinels but I don't think anyone wants toys or statues from that. Nor consider it part of the original Robotech due to the big difference in animation style. From your post, this is the first time I've heard of Robotech 3000.

Sentinels is held in EXTREMELY high regard by the Robotech fandom... with demands to revisit and/or finish the series being the #1 fan demand from Harmony Gold and a constant source of frustration in the fandom.  Shadow Chronicles was arguably exactly that, since its comic book tie-in picked up right where the Sentinels comics left off (to the extent of literally redrawing whole panels from the comic's final issue) and the "movie" (read: canceled OVA's first episode) concludes its story arc by having the final battle with the Invid from the Expeditionary Forces' viewpoint and the aftermath.  (Curiously the revists of the Sentinels invariably purge the Southern Cross designs from the story in favor of MOSPEADA ones.)

For the record, Toynami made two Masterpiece Collection entries for Sentinels (a red TLEAD and a green TLEAD) that were both advertised as "seen only in Sentinels" and one from Shadow Chronicles (Maia's VF/A-6ZX) that was the subject of a rather embarrassing recall campaign.

Robotech 3000 is... well... a fiasco.  It never made it past the first teaser trailer due to the fan backlash against its idiot premise and CG animation, and when it went down it took the animation studio with it.

 

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I never heard about a Southern Cross Kickstarter for kits. I'll do a few searches. Maybe I just don't remember. Perhaps the fact that they were kits is the problem though. Kits are for the major fan or if there isn't another option.

It's not a Kickstarter, it was a thread right here on this forum.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

There needs to be some chance of actually turning a profit, or you go out of business. Virtually no one makes products they believe they can't sell.

And fewer still make products they know they'll lose money on... unless there's a pressing ulterior motive for doing so, like Harmony Gold's money laundering or automakers selling EVs at a loss to ensure they meet EPA and CARB requirements for average fuel economy.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[JetJockey]

21 hours ago, tekering said:

Harmony Gold released "Masterpiece" toys from the Macross Saga and New Generation (and repainted them for Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles releases); Southern Cross toys were deemed unlikely sellers, presumably.

 

I remember when a someone I knew showed me a Robotech Masterpiece toy. It was still boxed and he kept it that way. I had the Yamato VF-1 at that point and knew it had a more accurate transformation and just was a better toy. I didn't care about the Masterpiece box packaging. I probably would have purchased a Masterpiece Hovertank though as I only had the old toy and didn't like the fact that there wasn't a hovercraft mode.

 

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't mean to be rude, but this is surprisingly naive.

None of these companies give a flip about the product they're producing or the fans buying it.  This isn't a fan-run operation, these are corporations that are responsible to their creditors, shareholders, etc.  Like Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, [They're] Only in It for the Money.  They aren't going to carry on with product lines that aren't turning a profit, and they aren't going to gamble by making products they have every reason to expect won't sell.  

 

That Harmony Gold has not one single f*ck to give was firmly and definitively established a very long time ago.  Their own VP of Marketing has, on many occasions, publicly admitted that management is only interested in the bottom line.  I personally had a shockingly candid conversation with him about updating their website back in '07, in which he told me point-blank that TPTB considered everything that wasn't directly relating to selling merchandise a waste of time and money.

 

You'd find very VERY few licensees willing to shell out for a license like that.  No company wants to be railroaded into making unsellable products.

 

Sentinels is held in EXTREMELY high regard by the Robotech fandom... with demands to revisit and/or finish the series being the #1 fan demand from Harmony Gold and a constant source of frustration in the fandom.  Shadow Chronicles was arguably exactly that, since its comic book tie-in picked up right where the Sentinels comics left off (to the extent of literally redrawing whole panels from the comic's final issue) and the "movie" (read: canceled OVA's first episode) concludes its story arc by having the final battle with the Invid from the Expeditionary Forces' viewpoint and the aftermath.  (Curiously the revists of the Sentinels invariably purge the Southern Cross designs from the story in favor of MOSPEADA ones.)

 

There are tons of companies that I won't buy from and actually go out of business when they show that they only care about profits over their customers and making a good product. Sideshow Collectibles is quickly headed that way with their fast rising prices, iffy at times quality control, and some products that lack creativity for the price especially compared to the competition. I don't even bother thinking that I'll get a full team group from them anymore. Of course they say stupid stuff too because the money is coming in and they are confident. But huge companies have fallen apart before.

 

If the people that control Harmony Gold are that dumb to publicly say that they only care about money, they will be out of business as well. Honestly, I haven't purchased anything from Harmony Gold in years. The last thing was probably a CD and on discount. Which I have like three versions of the Robotech soundtrack. And also a mousepad. The whole blocking of the new Macross series over here is extremely upsetting. I think they were lucky making Robotech. I actually like it. But once they make a Blu-ray, that's probably it for me and Harmony Gold. Unless they do come out with good Southern Cross toys. I am watching if that new boardgame will be good.

 

I didn't know people liked The Sentinels that much. I sold my comics but still have the books which I'll re-read one day.

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, JetJockey said:

There are tons of companies that I won't buy from and actually go out of business when they show that they only care about profits over their customers and making a good product.

Again, none of these corporations are the least bit interested in what their customers want or think unless it affects their bottom line.  They're in business to make money.  They are not going to sink time and effort into producing a product that they don't think will sell well enough to justify those efforts no matter how badly fans want it.  Quality suffers when a company proceeds with a project that's not in sufficient demand, and opts to cut corners in order to maximize their profits from the lower expected sales volume instead of (or on top of) raising prices.

You're mistaking their pragmatic interest in producing products that will sell well for some kind of personal interest in your satisfaction.  This is all business.

 

10 hours ago, JetJockey said:

If the people that control Harmony Gold are that dumb to publicly say that they only care about money, they will be out of business as well.

They've been saying it for well upwards of a decade, and people keep buying their sh*t despite the hilariously poor quality... so there would appear to be a problem with your hypothesis.

 

 

[TheLoneWolf]

On 8/13/2018 at 10:54 PM, jenius said:

I seem to recall Roy being available in two waves. I suspect that the original production volume was 10K with a 5K option for the VF-1 toys.

 

On 8/14/2018 at 10:48 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

AFAIK, Toynami's manufacturing orders were done in the form "enough to fill existing preorders + a few hundred extras to sell on and get us to a nice round number to maximize our bulk discount".

I don't recall them ever revising the advertised size of a limited edition run after it was announced... but I confess I didn't pay much attention to the MPC line until the whole "Why we don't make toys for Southern Cross thing first reared its ugly head" around ten or eleven years ago.

jenius is right, the Roy MPC sold well enough that there was a 2nd wave. About a year after the Roy MPC was released, RT.com began taking orders for a 2nd wave at the full MSRP. The only difference between the 1st and 2nd waves was the white shipping boxes that they came in. I want to say that there was a 3rd wave, but I'm not entirely positive.

Anyways, one of the side effects of having more Roy MPC's on the market was that there wasn't enough Super Armors to go with all those new Roy's. So Toynami released a 2nd wave of Appendix Super Armors. Like the 2nd wave of Roy MPC's, the 2nd wave of Appendix Armors came out about a year after RT.com stopped carrying the initial batch and had a different white shipping box from the 1st wave. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a 3rd wave of Appendix armor.

These subsequent waves, combined with the reported serial numbers that they carried, was how we were able to deduce that Toynami only manufactured about 5,000 ~ 7,000 pieces per wave. AFAIK, none of the other MPC's had any subsequent waves. I'm still shocked that the Roy MPC sold so well. While Yamato's v1 VF-1 was a mixed bag at best, Bandai's reissue 1/55 Super VF-1S was readily available at the time and had a superior build, despite being a then 20 year old design.

As for Southern Cross merchandise, I believe John Moscato wanted to build an Auroran model kit, but couldn't even get 30 pre-orders to start the project. If that isn't a damning indictment, I don't know what is.

[Seto Kaiba]

28 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

jenius is right, the Roy MPC sold well enough that there was a 2nd wave.

I'll take your word for it.  As I said, I didn't really pay attention to the MPC line until the big to-do over not doing Southern Cross came out because it wasn't all that impressive, and I've never been much of a toy collector.  None of the store pages I've seen, archived or current, mention separate production runs for them... just a flat limited edition cap.

(I suppose it could be as simple as what I heard from IIRC Tom Bateman at one point about them usually expecting to sell about 1/2 of the limited edition's production cap... if they had orders for more than half they would have had to reorder even if the cap was always set to 15,000.)

 

28 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

As for Southern Cross merchandise, I believe John Moscato wanted to build an Auroran model kit, but couldn't even get 30 pre-orders to start the project. If that isn't a damning indictment, I don't know what is. 

Yeah, I mentioned and linked to that a few posts back... the thread started out as an attempt to rustle up interest in an Auroran kit, and sort of expanded into a simultaneous interest check in a Spartas kit as well.

Unfortunately, we were only able to secure 18 of the required 30 preorders for either design so it all ended as a non-starter.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[TheLoneWolf]

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, I mentioned and linked to that a few posts back... the thread started out as an attempt to rustle up interest in an Auroran kit, and sort of expanded into a simultaneous interest check in a Spartas kit as well.

Unfortunately, we were only able to secure 18 of the required 30 preorders for either design so it all ended as a non-starter.

My mistake, I completely missed your post. I was wondering why no one had mentioned it since it's highly relevant to this thread.

[Convectuoso]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:55 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

I'll take your word for it.  As I said, I didn't really pay attention to the MPC line until the big to-do over not doing Southern Cross came out because it wasn't all that impressive, and I've never been much of a toy collector.  None of the store pages I've seen, archived or current, mention separate production runs for them... just a flat limited edition cap.

(I suppose it could be as simple as what I heard from IIRC Tom Bateman at one point about them usually expecting to sell about 1/2 of the limited edition's production cap... if they had orders for more than half they would have had to reorder even if the cap was always set to 15,000.)

 

Yeah, I mentioned and linked to that a few posts back... the thread started out as an attempt to rustle up interest in an Auroran kit, and sort of expanded into a simultaneous interest check in a Spartas kit as well.

Unfortunately, we were only able to secure 18 of the required 30 preorders for either design so it all ended as a non-starter.

Would it be possible to get interest back into this project? 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

Would it be possible to get interest back into this project? 

@captain america would be the one to decide if he's actually going to develop a Southern Cross kit, obviously... but he did seem willing before, contingent upon us being able to rustle up the required 30 preorders.  We'd have to ask him to be sure if he's still game.

It all hinges on getting 12+ more backers for either design.

[captain america]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

@captain america would be the one to decide if he's actually going to develop a Southern Cross kit, obviously... but he did seem willing before, contingent upon us being able to rustle up the required 30 preorders.  We'd have to ask him to be sure if he's still game.

It all hinges on getting 12+ more backers for either design.

For what it's worth, I just don't think the demand is there. When a project proposal stretches-on for too long in the hope of scrounging-up extra customers, you start to lose your initial customers as they wander-off, captivated by some newer, shinier bobble elsewhere. I have the skill, I have the desire, but the demand is soft and frankly, there are other, more interesting projects to tackle.

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, captain america said:

For what it's worth, I just don't think the demand is there. When a project proposal stretches-on for too long in the hope of scrounging-up extra customers, you start to lose your initial customers as they wander-off, captivated by some newer, shinier bobble elsewhere.

FWIW, I'm not so sure this applies to Southern Cross fans... the ones I know, at least, are an incredibly stubborn lot for whom the absence of any real Southern Cross collectibles¹ something of a sore spot.²

I would bet cash money that many of them would wait as long as it took to get enough interest for a proper Southern Cross collectible of ANY stripe.  The problem is whether there are actually enough of them to get a group of 30 together to fund something like one of your kits.  Southern Cross being an almost totally forgotten bit of mid-80's anime esoterica in Japan and its Robotech adaptation being a fan Un-Favorite means fans of it are pretty thin on the ground.

Getting them here to preorder would be another problem, since the most vocal Southern Cross fans rather actively resent Macross and Macross fans... in no small part because Robotech's merchandising and new material development favors Macross so heavily and ignores Southern Cross entirely except for one or two moments in the comics that play on the majority fanbase's dislike of it.³

 

 

1. The Southern Cross fans I've spent the most time interacting with generally reject the minimal Robotech-branded merchandise based on Southern Cross... partly because of its iffy quality, but mostly because the few prominent pieces are character goods that all suffer from Tommy Yune's rather polarizing art style and to say they dislike Mr. Yune would be putting it mildly.  ("Yuneface" has become a dismissive/derogatory term for the faces in Tommy Yune's art, which tend to all look exactly the same.)

2. Enough so that some of them spent a fair amount of time on elaborate, poorly-researched, outright fact-defying theories about why the Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross series was canceled back in '84, and equally elaborate conspiracy theories about why Harmony Gold's licensees aren't producing Southern Cross goods that normally revolve around "Macross purists".

3. Most notably, the Robotech reboot's flagship limited comic series From the Stars.  Robotech's version of Southern Cross's Claude Leon (Supreme Commander Eli Anatole Leonard) puts in a brief appearance in which he is revealed to be a highly-placed spy and traitor working to sabotage the development of VFs and Destroids on behalf of the Robotech equivalent of Macross's Anti-Unification Alliance.  The comic depicts him as having orchestrated the hijacking of an ARMD-class ship, a nuclear strike that destroyed the military's #2 command center in Antarctica, and attempting to do the same to "Macross Island".  The Palladium Books Robotech RPG (2nd Ed.) takes this one up a notch by also making him into an incompetent military dictator who rules over a puppet civilian government and equips his forces with substandard equipment because the deep space forces took all the best people and he's too butthurt about being left behind himself that he refuses to use the same gear.

[Sandman]

Wow that stuff about Leonard sounds terrible. They should just leave well enough alone. 

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, Sandman said:

Wow that stuff about Leonard sounds terrible. They should just leave well enough alone. 

That's just Robotech's creative staff pandering to the fan majority.

Claude Leon was a massive jerkass even in the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and the Robotech adaptation didn't soften him all that much.  Robotech fan antipathy for him and for his command, the Southern Cross Army, has always been pretty open.  If you're going to retcon one of your show's existing characters into a villain, why not go for the one who's already established as a bad boss and militant xenophobe who isn't above sending his subordinates on suicide missions for arguing with him?  

(It doesn't help that the Southern Cross Army has a memetic reputation for incompetence among fans of Robotech... their failure to defend Earth literally falling under "You had one job!" territory.  It kind of snowballed after a while, especially once HG tapped fans to provide stats for their official "Infopedia" and some remarks about the SCA's mecha being badly designed made the cut... likely because the Southern Cross print materials aren't shy about admitting the SCA's mecha do kind of suck.  Especially the Logan.)

[505thAirborne]

I saw this custom build online the other day, not to shabby but I think the Captain could do sooooo much better! 

[captain america]

8 minutes ago, 505thAirborne said:

I saw this custom build online the other day, not to shabby but I think the Captain could do sooooo much better! 

Wasn't Exo working on a 1/48 version?

[505thAirborne]

10 minutes ago, captain america said:

Wasn't Exo working on a 1/48 version?

Knowing EXO it's somewhere on his to do list, would be cool to see what he can come up with if he does. 

[Bariaburu Faita]

One of the few Southern Cross items I’ve seen for sale recently in Japan was a unofficial fan doujinshi and it only went for ¥210 in resale shop

[JetJockey]

The rare good cels go for a bit. I wish I looked for them earlier.

[Convectuoso]

7 hours ago, captain america said:

Wasn't Exo working on a 1/48 version?

I haven't seen Exo post anything related to this

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Bariaburu Faita said:

One of the few Southern Cross items I’ve seen for sale recently in Japan was a unofficial fan doujinshi and it only went for ¥210 in resale shop

One of the few convenient things about collecting Southern Cross stuff is that the demand is so low that markups are nearly nonexistent in most categories.

I was able to score a few magazines with articles about the series for less than their original cover price last year.

[GabrielV]

Honestly, it's been ages since I watched the Southern Cross section of Robotech.  I don't enjoy that part, and don't like any of the characters.  When I first watched it in the 80s, I think I liked Louie and Musica, but that was about it.  I rewatched the section years ago when the series was released on DVD, but I've skipped it ever since.

So, I'm not a Southern Cross fan or well versed in that section of Robotech.

But I recall when watching the section initially wondering if Leonard was a traitor or an idiot.  There were a couple of spots where it very much seemed like he was in league with the Masters and was profiting in some way by getting Earth forces killed.  Other times he just seemed like a complete buffoon.  Ultimately, I decided he was simply a petty dictator who had acquired his position completely by politics which occurred before the Expeditionary Force left earth.  He wasn't traitorous, just completely unsuited in terms of training and temperment for his position and task.  But, is there a scene near the end where he flat out makes a deal with the Masters?  I think there's also a scene somewhere where the Masters privately transmit to him.

I used to run Robotech RPGs regularly.  Anecdotally, one of the things I always found odd when recruiting pickup players was how none of them ever wanted to be veritech flyboys like Rick, Max, or Scott.  Pickup players usually wanted to be veritech hover tank pilots with a tiny few wanting to be cyclone specialists.  I also met an amazing number of people who thought the armor for the Southern Cross armies was really cool.  What does this over two decade old personal experience mean for modern day toy sales?  Absolutely nothing.  But I also don't think we should entirely count out the idea of the smaller and smaller runs of Toynami MP toys were due to customers' bad experiences with the quality of the VF-1 and Alpha toys.  I had definitely completely checked out before the Beta arrived, and (unfairly) judged the Beta on the crappiness of the Alpha.