No Love for Southern Cross?

[Raikkonen]

2 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

The setting, at least the version of the Robotech setting I've got going in my head, has really grown on me as of late.  I tried rewatching the cartoon and it hasn't aged well at all, except maybe for a few of Angelo's lines.  "Yes ma'am!  But going out under the command of a ditzy teenager is not what I had in mind!"

 

My brother and I still quote Louie's response to each other, "When you've gotta go, you gotta go; so let's get going."

Her dialogue was quite ditzy in Southern Cross, something Robotech tried to correct as much as possible. 

Yeah, none of Robotech has aged well, especially with the narration on the nose. 

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Raikkonen said:

Her dialogue was quite ditzy in Southern Cross, something Robotech tried to correct as much as possible. 

Yeah, none of Robotech has aged well, especially with the narration on the nose. 

To me, the ditziness worked for the story. It wasn’t a group that just came out of a war. They were more of a bunch of kids that had never seen war, let alone much violence. There didn’t seem to even be an expectation that there ever could be combat. I think that’s why things were so chaotic. I’ve mentioned it before with the mecha design, I really do believe it mostly was designed for riots than for all out war. It works for me as an explanation for the uncovered modes on the Sparta. The military overall had a lack of organization and just seemed to do things as an afterthought. The planet they were on only seemed to have one city and yet had quite a bit of people in their military, probably more of a requirement but not taken too seriously.

In the Robotech version things make less sense. They were just out of an apocalyptic war and quite a bit of the military would’ve been made up of people who were combat veterans of human or zentraedi origin and wouldn’t put up with their crap. The designs feel really out of place as well 

[Raikkonen]

9 minutes ago, Big s said:

To me, the ditziness worked for the story. It wasn’t a group that just came out of a war. They were more of a bunch of kids that had never seen war, let alone much violence. There didn’t seem to even be an expectation that there ever could be combat. I think that’s why things were so chaotic. I’ve mentioned it before with the mecha design, I really do believe it mostly was designed for riots than for all out war. It works for me as an explanation for the uncovered modes on the Sparta. The military overall had a lack of organization and just seemed to do things as an afterthought. The planet they were on only seemed to have one city and yet had quite a bit of people in their military, probably more of a requirement but not taken too seriously.

In the Robotech version things make less sense. They were just out of an apocalyptic war and quite a bit of the military would’ve been made up of people who were combat veterans of human or zentraedi origin and wouldn’t put up with their crap. The designs feel really out of place as well 

Yeah, the smaller setting worked in Southern Cross as they were colonizing another planet, while in Robotech, it felt like a bit of de-evolution happened, especially how the city somewhat shrunk instead of growing as many years passed since the war. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Big s said:

To me, the ditziness worked for the story. It wasn’t a group that just came out of a war. They were more of a bunch of kids that had never seen war, let alone much violence.

The original Southern Cross didn't really get a chance to get into it because the show's writing was a mess and it was earmarked for cancellation early into its planned broadcast run, but these kids are the first generation to grow up after humanity was forced to abandon Earth due to the total destruction of its environment via wars and pollution.  They're living on a recently colonized and only tenuously self-sufficient planet that's only slightly less inhospitable than Hoth from Star Wars.*  

It's implied a few of them, like Jeanne, are there because they were either the people Liberte felt would be least missed in its own government and armed forces or who were so problematic that they ended up on the "ship out" side of "shape up or ship out".

 

* No, really.  Creator commentary from TIA10 says that Glorie's average temperature at the 40th parallel (think Japan, Turkey, Kentucky, southern Spain, Sicily) is -40 degrees C in winter... Hoth is -32 to -60 degrees C!  The weather on Glorie is subfreezing for 36 years at a time.  Hopefully the 18 year long spring is nice, because it apparently swings to 40+ degrees C at the same latitude in the 18 year long summer.

 

2 hours ago, Big s said:

There didn’t seem to even be an expectation that there ever could be combat. I think that’s why things were so chaotic. I’ve mentioned it before with the mecha design, I really do believe it mostly was designed for riots than for all out war. It works for me as an explanation for the uncovered modes on the Sparta. The military overall had a lack of organization and just seemed to do things as an afterthought. The planet they were on only seemed to have one city and yet had quite a bit of people in their military, probably more of a requirement but not taken too seriously.

None of the series materials ever really address why there's a military at all, never mind one with giant robot weapons, when humanity had encountered no aliens and live was by all accounts relatively peaceful and focused on just plain survival after having to abandon Earth because of the damage caused by unrestricted warfare.

[Big s]

8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

None of the series materials ever really address why there's a military at all, never mind one with giant robot weapons, when humanity had encountered no aliens and live was by all accounts relatively peaceful and focused on just plain survival after having to abandon Earth because of the damage caused by unrestricted warfare.

I get the feeling that they really only kept a military as a way of trying to give a sense of responsibility. In this case I guess it would be like boy scouts or Girl Scouts, but instead of learning how to sell cookies, they learn to pilot an odd abundance of robots. Maybe it would be more of an ROTC kind of program

[CoryHolmes]

On 7/18/2023 at 5:32 AM, Big s said:

 

In the Robotech version things make less sense. They were just out of an apocalyptic war and quite a bit of the military would’ve been made up of people who were combat veterans of human or zentraedi origin and wouldn’t put up with their crap. The designs feel really out of place as well 

And that's where head-canon comes in, so we can fix all those little niggling details to our hearts content

[Convectuoso]

[CoryHolmes]

I want it, but I can't have it

[tekering]

Don't worry, something much more accurate is on the horizon... 

...but you'll have to paint and assemble it yourself. 

[derex3592]

@tekering  hmmmmmmmmm........I can only hope beyond hope what I'm thinking about is what you are hinting at! 

[Convectuoso]

6 hours ago, tekering said:

Don't worry, something much more accurate is on the horizon... 

...but you'll have to paint and assemble it yourself. 

🫢

[captain america]

The Battle Sniper mode is pretty decent, but the Clapper mode is an utter trainwreck. Understandable as it needs many minute adjustments to go from one to the other.

[CoryHolmes]

22 hours ago, tekering said:

Don't worry, something much more accurate is on the horizon... 

...but you'll have to paint and assemble it yourself. 

*don'tgivemehope.gif* 

 

9 hours ago, captain america said:

The Battle Sniper mode is pretty decent, but the Clapper mode is an utter trainwreck. Understandable as it needs many minute adjustments to go from one to the other.

It does look rather tall and skinny in Tank and Guardian modes, doesn't it?  But it's Battloid mode is pretty decent.  The curse of trying to make a poorly engineered and even more poorly animated design into a 3D object, eh?

[tekering]

22 hours ago, captain america said:

The Battle Sniper mode is pretty decent, but the Clapper mode is an utter trainwreck.

I think that's supposed to be the Walking Cannon mode, actually... although it's hard to tell. 🙄

Strange thing is, it looks nothing like the Massimo Tonielli design MEP displayed in New York three years ago:

13 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

But it's Battloid mode is pretty decent.

"Decent" is charitable, but it's an improvement over the 3D-printed prototype above. 😅

13 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

The curse of trying to make a poorly engineered and even more poorly animated design into a 3D object, eh?

It's not a poor design, by any means, but any attempt to engineer a transformable toy inevitably results in aesthetic compromises.

I'd much prefer a non-transformable model of each mode that wouldn't require such compromise.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

The curse of trying to make a poorly engineered and even more poorly animated design into a 3D object, eh?

Even the most skilled designers relied on no small amount of "anime magic" to make elaborate transformations work back in the day.  That they were able to get as close as they did with the original Takatoku VF-1 toys shows Kawamori's related skill set as a toy designer.  Southern Cross's Ammonite staff didn't have the talent or the experience to pull off work of that level, so they did they best they could with the minimal resources they had.  

As a result, an attempt at a "perfect transformation" Spartas is probably always going to look like crap.  It'd probably work and look far better as a partsformer.

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even the most skilled designers relied on no small amount of "anime magic" to make elaborate transformations work back in the day.  That they were able to get as close as they did with the original Takatoku VF-1 toys shows Kawamori's related skill set as a toy designer.  Southern Cross's Ammonite staff didn't have the talent or the experience to pull off work of that level, so they did they best they could with the minimal resources they had.  

As a result, an attempt at a "perfect transformation" Spartas is probably always going to look like crap.  It'd probably work and look far better as a partsformer.

Or as debris.

If anything could use a redesign from the ground up, it's Southern Cross, mech and all.

[Big s]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even the most skilled designers relied on no small amount of "anime magic" to make elaborate transformations work back in the day.  That they were able to get as close as they did with the original Takatoku VF-1 toys shows Kawamori's related skill set as a toy designer.  Southern Cross's Ammonite staff didn't have the talent or the experience to pull off work of that level, so they did they best they could with the minimal resources they had.  

As a result, an attempt at a "perfect transformation" Spartas is probably always going to look like crap.  It'd probably work and look far better as a partsformer.

I’d be more interested if it didn’t transform personally. Partsforming would be a decent compromise though 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

If anything could use a redesign from the ground up, it's Southern Cross, mech and all.

... it probably could stand to be redone by a competent mechanical designer, but then it'd probably look completely different.

Even if the crash-and-burn failure of The Price of Smiles hadn't soured Tatsunoko Production on the idea of an original mecha IP once again, Southern Cross is probably the last title they'd ever consider a revisit for given how badly it did in its original airing and its localization's status as Robotech's least-loved installment.

(It probably doesn't help that the people agitating loudest for more Southern Cross merch... don't buy Southern Cross merch when it gets made.  The Robotech fandom is weird like that.  It came as part of a set, but even I have the Southern Cross Army mug from way back when.) 

 

16 minutes ago, Big s said:

I’d be more interested if it didn’t transform personally. Partsforming would be a decent compromise though 

It might've not have been an expectation at the time, but nowadays if a mecha anime has a transforming mecha that the toy for same will also transform is practically a hard requirement.

If they're gonna do it and make it look good, partsforming is probably the way to go.  Otherwise it's just gonna look chunky and clunky like the Robotech toy from the 80's because of how much anime magic was required for that transformation.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Seto Kaiba
Misspelled "price"... epic fail.

[shazam]

18 hours ago, tekering said:

I think that's supposed to be the Walking Cannon mode, actually... although it's hard to tell. 🙄

Strange thing is, it looks nothing like the Massimo Tonielli design MEP displayed in New York three years ago:

"Decent" is charitable, but it's an improvement over the 3D-printed prototype above. 😅

It's not a poor design, by any means, but any attempt to engineer a transformable toy inevitably results in aesthetic compromises.

I'd much prefer a non-transformable model of each mode that wouldn't require such compromise.

Yes with the dozens of offerings for the VF-1 line that people still think they need,  it would be nice to see a fully transformable Mech like this one ready for sale. I would buy one even if it had that ridiculous ROBO-DOU name attached and marketed as Super Dimension Calvary Southern Cross.

[Convectuoso]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276018561506?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=50s2egejR92&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ZxaL2R1kSb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[DewPoint]

Now that is interesting.  Are they dropping out of the Robotech toy business entirely?

[jenius]

1 hour ago, DewPoint said:

Now that is interesting.  Are they dropping out of the Robotech toy business entirely?

Yes, it sounds like it was a passion project that became way too demanding so he decided to move on. 

[CoryHolmes]

2 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276018561506?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=50s2egejR92&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ZxaL2R1kSb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I am too poor.  *emptypockets.gif*

[shazam]

4 hours ago, Convectuoso said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276018561506?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=50s2egejR92&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ZxaL2R1kSb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

The Hovertank started at $50 and went up to $405 with 6 days to go. It will be interesting to see how much this item fetches.

[jenius]

At 1/48 scale... is this thing like the size of an action figure? The old Matchbox is like 1/18 scale IIRC.

[pengbuzz]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:27 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

... it probably could stand to be redone by a competent mechanical designer, but then it'd probably look completely different.

Like for example: an actual enclosed cockpit that doesn't make it's pilot a sitting duck for all sorts of crap and is ready to dump them out at a moment's notice.

I personally wonder when the designers of this mech heard the word "convertible", they were thinking of drop-tops!

[tekering]

Hang on...

His auction listing shows the Massimo Tonielli prototype, which is clearly NOT the toy he posted about earlier:

On 8/17/2023 at 3:36 AM, Convectuoso said:

Anyone bidding on the auction should be aware that there's a second (arguably superior) prototype he's ALSO likely to sell. 

1 hour ago, jenius said:

At 1/48 scale... is this thing like the size of an action figure?

Certainly.  If we assume a height of 6.2 meters in battloid (awkwardly undersized, but official stats frequently are), a 1:48 toy would stand 13cm tall.

That's about a head shorter than an HMR Valkyrie. 🤨

[DewPoint]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Like for example: an actual enclosed cockpit that doesn't make it's pilot a sitting duck for all sorts of crap and is ready to dump them out at a moment's notice.

I personally wonder when the designers of this mech heard the word "convertible", they were thinking of drop-tops!

So while I totally agree with you, I believe that since this is sort of founded on sci-fi samurai, the Sparta is an armored horse. 🐎 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, DewPoint said:

So while I totally agree with you, I believe that since this is sort of founded on sci-fi samurai, the Sparta is an armored horse. 🐎 

It was literal robot horse space fantasy - or, rather, an "in space" version of heavily mythologized history - midway through its development under the title Science Fiction Sengoku Saga.  That's the reason for the design of the body armor and the goofy ornate helmets.  They're heavily toned-down versions of what was originally a sci-fi take on ou-yoroi.

I'm not sure that necessarily connects to the Spartas's lack of any real protection for its driver, though... since that aspect was removed in the transition to a mecha series.

 

 

[Big s]

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Like for example: an actual enclosed cockpit that doesn't make it's pilot a sitting duck for all sorts of crap and is ready to dump them out at a moment's notice.

I personally wonder when the designers of this mech heard the word "convertible", they were thinking of drop-tops!

That’s why they have super cool armor.

not only that, but one mode is just for fast travel and the other is supposed to just be long range artillery. After that the close combat mode is covered. Not that they cared enough about their training to be able to use them properly 

[CoryHolmes]

9 hours ago, Big s said:

That’s why they have super cool armor.

not only that, but one mode is just for fast travel and the other is supposed to just be long range artillery. After that the close combat mode is covered. Not that they cared enough about their training to be able to use them properly 

Yeah, the open cockpit modes are usually for travel or very long-range bombardment.

 

I also head-canon it as the fully-enclosed cockpit had teething issues in development (like the F-35s helmet display) and the tankers were promised that it was getting fixed Soon (tm).

[pengbuzz]

12 hours ago, Big s said:

That’s why they have super cool armor.

not only that, but one mode is just for fast travel and the other is supposed to just be long range artillery. After that the close combat mode is covered. Not that they cared enough about their training to be able to use them properly 

A few things here:

1) As any equestrian will tell you: any sort of padding or armor is only going to do so much for you in a fall. You land the wrong way and no amount of armor in the world is going to save you from a broken neck. And their armor didn't look to have much in the way of cybernetic reinforcement for their necks.

2) "Fast travel"; in an open cockpit with no apparent restraints, windshield, shielding or whatnot. After a certain speed, your own velocity works against you, and "armor" is simply a container for your remains.

3) That armor is going to do squat for them when enemy artillery (energy or otherwise) come their way in that open cockpit.

This is how open that cockpit is (not no seat belt per se):

Not to mention when it transforms into robot mode, it takes several seconds. That's an eternity in which an enemy can open up on the exposed pilot. You can also see here that the "cool armor" does not have much to protect the pilot's neck from stresses involving the head being thrown around (coup/contre-coup), or sudden twisting or jarring.

@Seto Kaiba I'll bet I'm missing some stuff here... anything you want to add?

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Big s said:

That’s why they have super cool armor.

Not s'much, no... first and foremost, the Arming Doublet's job is to protect its wearer from the fact that Glorie is a profoundly unpleasant place to live.  A few specialist models are meant to protect against more immediate environmental hazards like drowning or decompression, but most are just excessively stylized body armor meant to protect from small arms fire and the fact that Glorie can't decide if it wants to be Tattooine or Hoth and spends 18+ years at a time being one or the other.  (The experience of living there is basically 18 year-long Death Valley midsummer followed by 55 years of winter broken up into two 18 year long Northern Minnesota winters with a Northern Finland winter in the middle for good measure.)

It won't stop anti-armor or anti-warship grade laser weapons any more than a kevlar vest and trauma plate'll stop a 120mm anti-tank round... making the decision to put the tank's driver in an exposed position a rather questionable choice at best.  It also won't do much if you get thrown from your vehicle, which happens quite a bit in the series since there's apparently no restraints in the Spartas's cockpit!

 

12 hours ago, Big s said:

not only that, but one mode is just for fast travel and the other is supposed to just be long range artillery. After that the close combat mode is covered. Not that they cared enough about their training to be able to use them properly 

Y'know, they never actually address what "Sniping Clapper" mode is for, officially... "it hovers" is as specific as they get.

That said, Walker Cannon is not long-range artillery, it's a medium-range (visual range) direct-fire cannon and anti-aircraft gun according to the few official statements on the topic.  It's not capable of long-ranged bombardment because its weapons are all lasers.  It also doesn't really walk.

Despite the name, Battle Sniper is actually meant for close-ranged combat only.

(Welcome to the land of nonindicative names... that the word "clapper" comes up as often as it does makes me think Glorie's population needs to be using more protection when finding ways to pass the time during decades of winter.)

 

53 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

1) As any equestrian will tell you: any sort of padding or armor is only going to do so much for you in a fall. You land the wrong way and no amount of armor in the world is going to save you from a broken neck. And their armor didn't look to have much in the way of cybernetic reinforcement for their necks.

Certain Southern Cross fans perpetuate the claim that the Arming Doublet is a powered suit, but thus far I have found exactly NOTHING to corroborate that... the claim seems to come from Robotech.

 

 

Of course, the most glaring issue is that the heavily stylized nature of the Arming Doublet and the Southern Cross Army's odd preoccupation with bling as a status symbol on the battlefield means that decapitating a unit by eliminating its leaders is as simple as aiming for the idiot with the fanciest hat.  Most variants keep this relatively low-key and make either the mengu (facial armor) fancier or add a fancier kabuto maedate (front crest), but the α Tactics Armored Corps stupidly put a swan on every Lieutenant's head and military police lieutenants get a giant multi-handspan crescent like they're cosplaying Masamune Date.

Spoiler

Since it's a bit of a cultural meme anyway, I wonder what branch has its officers running around wearing a maedate of 愛 like Kanetsugu Naoe.

I kinda wanna see that now, esp. since so much media makes Kanetsugu out to be a Large Ham.

 

[Big s]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of course, the most glaring issue is that the heavily stylized nature of the Arming Doublet and the Southern Cross Army's odd preoccupation with bling as a status symbol on the battlefield means that decapitating a unit by eliminating its leaders is as simple as aiming for the idiot with the fanciest hat.  Most variants keep this relatively low-key and make either the mengu (facial armor) fancier or add a fancier kabuto maedate (front crest), but the α Tactics Armored Corps stupidly put a swan on every Lieutenant's head and military police lieutenants get a giant multi-handspan crescent like they're cosplaying Masamune Date.

Until the zor arrived, they didn’t really have an enemy. I think there one major city and most of the military seems set up just to keep people from being bored.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

1) As any equestrian will tell you: any sort of padding or armor is only going to do so much for you in a fall. You land the wrong way and no amount of armor in the world is going to save you from a broken neck. And their armor didn't look to have much in the way of cybernetic reinforcement for their necks.

2) "Fast travel"; in an open cockpit with no apparent restraints, windshield, shielding or whatnot. After a certain speed, your own velocity works against you, and "armor" is simply a container for your remains.

3) That armor is going to do squat for them when enemy artillery (energy or otherwise) come their way in that open cockpit.

I always take sci-fi safety as an afterthought in every genre. Where’s the safety rails in Star Wars. Or I’m pretty sure Hikaru would have whiplash from every crash or quick stop. Sniping in mobile suits in atmosphere often has the pilot dangling in their seat face down for hours, although it was surprising to see they eventually had air bags. Even with seat belts, in the first Avatar movie they drop the mecha straight down in a way that would crush your back.(haven’t seen the second one yet.) and almost every Mecha anime has mele combat that would be like the worst car crash ever and even more ridiculous in space when they go full thrust at their opponents.

Basically, I tend to try my best to ignore safety concerns in sci fi almost completely. It’s getting better, but it all needs a lot of disbelief and in some cases you’re way better off just pretending everything will be alright 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

Until the zor arrived, they didn’t really have an enemy. I think there one major city and most of the military seems set up just to keep people from being bored.

Granted, Southern Cross is a mockbuster whose writers never bothered to come up with justifications for 90% of what goes on in its story or design works...

Even so, Liberte and Glorie's armed forces supposedly descend from modern military traditions... and let's just say that the idea of requiring your military's leaders to make obvious targets of themselves by wearing the fanciest hat and/or blingiest uniform on the battlefield was, coincidentally I'm sure, started to go out of fashion in the mid-19th century right around the time rifled muskets brought an end to Napoleonic tactics with their substantially better accuracy at range.  Wearing a "shoot me, I'm an officer" sign on your bonce was determined to be a pretty poor life choice almost three centuries before the series is set and I can't honestly imagine why anyone would question that wisdom.