VF-22 plus

[007-vf1]

Just out of curiosity wanted to play with an idea I haven't seen to this day. A reconnaissance VF-21/22. I got an spare Hasegawa kit and got to building. I like the recons vf's in any variable fighter scheme so thought why not a 22?

I got a bit ambitious so I scratch-built a ventral antenna like the VF-25 and a mock up device for the first Cloaking valk in trials. Also a radar dish made with Bondo and styrene.

My first problem was to figure whether it would need 2 crew members? So i went for this idea, but this would mean I needed to stretch the fuselage a bit for a mock up second pilot spot. I am planning in sculpting one straight in the cut off fuselage but not sure out of what?.

When Milliput dries is way too hard to sculpt, sand or cut. I would need something softer that can be easily sanded. Any suggestions?

My second problem is what the heck will I name it?

Is a reconnaissance valk with a cloaking device that makes it invisible to radar and partial EM spectrums, My first thought was INFILTRATOR..but then again I might be way over my head. Would that name makes sense or is the better options.. What would its denomination be?

Edited January 1, 2009 by 007-vf1

[SchizophrenicMC]

2-seater, simply because so few Valks have 2 crewmen.

If it's to look like a VF-22, it'll be a VE-22 or RVF-22 Sturmvogel II

If not, RVF-23 Feurensvogel (Firebird)

[Berttt]

Good idea, but why not try a different shape radar array to the usual circular one. Like this new one from Boeing:

Edited January 1, 2009 by Berttt

[SchizophrenicMC]

Good idea, but why not try a different shape radar array to the usual circular one. Like this new one from Boeing:

1, it's not as aesthetically pleasing

2, it's not as sight-related to the "Radar Array Look"

3, it's a different type of array

4, he already made the radome

I'm not ripping on you, I'm just listing reasons I wouldn't, and why he might not have.

[David Hingtgen]

Also, Boeing's new radar doesn't work...

[SchizophrenicMC]

Dave makes a point. I heard that somewhere... Probably my grandad or my father, the first of which is keeping up with the military's equipment, the latter worked at Boeing up until '02, and is keeping up with his old employer's stuff...

[anime52k8]

Also, Boeing's new radar doesn't work...

orly? what's wrong with it?

[Valkyrie addict]

heyyyyy...great idea... this will look killer when it's done

hmm...here's a crazy idea I got for the second seat...don't know if you like, since you already cut plenty of plastic, but hey, you can put it back together

please excuse my lame photoshoping abilities

Edited January 1, 2009 by Valkyrie addict

[SchizophrenicMC]

That's so crazy, it might just WORK!

[007-vf1]

heyyyyy...great idea... this will look killer when it's done

hmm...here's a crazy idea I got for the second seat... don't know if you like, since you already cut plenty of plastic, but hey, you can put it back together

Please excuse my lame photos hoping abilities.

Actually that looks really good. I have the VF-21 with Guld's canopy which has the bubble window top. I thought it might be symmetric to have the secondary windows also in bubble/ round type instead of square...?

I still need to know what manageable sandable material use to fill up the fuselage gap?

The original radar I was thinking on would also have detachable sides like Luca's vf-25 version. The problem I run into is that the one I built is rock solid in Bondo and can't cut it off without damaging it. I was hoping to use a E-2c Hawkeye's radar which are relatively thin and hollow which makes it easy to cut off but couldn't find one in 1/100 since 1/72 is too big. Maybe a 1/144 could be just about the right size..?

One more thing I like to figure out is what would be a proper color scheme for a camo recon-fighter, without calling it "Mysterious/shadowy black"?

RVF-22-c1

Thanks for all of your input guys...

[SchizophrenicMC]

Actually that looks really good. I have the VF-21 with Guld's canopy which has the bubble window top. I thought it might be symmetric to have the secondary windows also in bubble/ round type instead of square...?

I still need to know what manageable sandable material use to fill up the fuselage gap?

The original radar I was thinking on would also have detachable sides like Luca's vf-25 version. The problem I run into is that the one I built is rock solid in Bondo and can't cut it off without damaging it. I was hoping to use a E-2c Hawkeye's radar which are relatively thin and hollow which makes it easy to cut off but couldn't find one in 1/100 since 1/72 is too big. Maybe a 1/144 could be just about the right size..?

One more thing I like to figure out is what would be a proper color scheme for a camo recon-fighter, without calling it "Mysterious/shadowy black"?

RVF-22-c1

Thanks for all of your input guys...

There's too much difference between 1/100 and 1/144. I can tell you that right now. It probably wouldn't work.

I'd say, for the color, sea green. Nah, actually, you seen the VF-1J Stealth from Yamato? The middle shade of gray is probably right.

Square or bubble, I don't care. Both would look nice.

No idea for the material. Sorry.

[Valkyrie addict]

I think if you add the bubble on top like a window to look up would look so freakin cool!, oh man, you have to do this valk, would be all kind of awesome!! I'm so piss drunk now posting from my mobile, HAPPY NEW YEARS!!

maybe you can do a E-2C Hawkeye scheme...classic all the way

Edited January 1, 2009 by Valkyrie addict

[Wicked Ace]

I'm so piss drunk now posting from my mobile, HAPPY NEW YEARS!!

Hey, at least you're not getting onto ebay drunk.

--> looks over at 1/48 scale Low Visibility Color Scheme (version 1)

[MechTech]

I'd say a bubble is more in line with the look too, or rounded window cut-outs in the side similar to what was shown before. Cool conceptual idea! - MT

[Noyhauser]

Just out of curiosity wanted to play with an idea I haven\'t seen to this day. A reconnaissance VF-21/22. I got an spare Hasegawa kit and got to building. I like the recons vf\'s in any variable fighter scheme so thought why not a 22?

I got a bit ambitious so I scratch-built a ventral antenna like the VF-25 and a mock up device for the first Cloaking valk in trials. Also a radar dish made with Bondo and styrene.

My first problem was to figure whether it would need 2 crew members? So i went for this idea, but this would mean I needed to stretch the fuselage a bit for a mock up second pilot spot. I am planning in sculpting one straight in the cut off fuselage but not sure out of what?.

When Milliput dries is way too hard to sculpt, sand or cut. I would need something softer that can be easily sanded. Any suggestions?

My second problem is what the heck will I name it?

Is a reconnaissance valk with a cloaking device that makes it invisible to radar and partial EM spectrums, My first thought was INFILTRATOR..but then again I might be way over my head. Would that name makes sense or is the better options.. What would its denomination be?

Well in Macross Seven, Single Seat VF-17 carried radar dishes... so the precedent is there.

If you want to make a two seater, why not try something different; placing the second seat in front of the pilot's seat? Maybe with the radar operators head, just before or right at where the pilot\'s control panel is (There is a quite a bit of room in the 21/22's cockpit.) This isn't as silly as it sounds, since the nose radar is likely to be superfluous with the big radome. By downgrading the fighter's nose radar or removing it completely they could easily create space in there for a radar operator/controller. You can also use the YF-21 globe to form a small window for the operator to see out from. Actually the configuration would kinda remind me of the two seater P-38J Pathfinder configurations:

Or the more relevant radar configuration:

The benefit of this is that you won't have to cut the fuselage apart and extended, which to be honest wouldn't look that good in transformation. Having built a YF-21 battroid conversion, the nose/cockpit area is already too long. If it were to transform after the extension, the whole thing would look silly. Its something to think about, even if you aren't transforming it. The forward operator's position suggestion requires the least amount of structural modification, would actually look pretty good and have some historical precedent.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Noyhauser

[007-vf1]

That p-38 is awesome. didn't know about the front seat conversion with exception of the bombers like the Mitchell. My biggest problem would be to find a canopy bubble to put in place plus the nose would have to be raised and widened anyways at least a bit to make space for a second crew member (possible a pain to sculpt for me) which in the end might make the nose look stubby and cumbersome. Although the idea of shortening the nose and maybe adding some gadgetry to the already lengthened fuselage sounds interesting...

Thanks Noyhauser..

All this brainstorming does help a lot.

[Noyhauser]

That p-38 is awesome. didn't know about the front seat conversion with exception of the bombers like the Mitchell. My biggest problem would be to find a canopy bubble to put in place plus the nose would have to be raised and widened anyways at least a bit to make space for a second crew member (possible a pain to sculpt for me) which in the end might make the nose look stubby and cumbersome. Although the idea of shortening the nose and maybe adding some gadgetry to the already lengthened fuselage sounds interesting...

Thanks Noyhauser..

All this brainstorming does help a lot.

Hmm I think that I might have miscommunicated what I was thinking. What I'm proposing would not require a major redesign of the nose, just the opposite. I would have the radar operator seated in such a fashion where he's somewhat reclined (Like how an M-1A1 MBT's driver is seated), with the majority of his body recessed inside the nose. His head would stick out right behind where the canopy meets the nose. Here you can use the YF-21's canopy bulb (at its top) to form a small observation window, placing it either as part of the VF-22's canopy, or separate to it. This wouldn't look that bad given the 22's already organic looking canopy, and wouldn't necessitate a major rebuild of the nose. Its also the most realistic option, as the fighter itself wouldn't have any major structural changes, just the removal of some of its nose sensor equipment, a cockpit redesign and the insertion of a mini-radar operator's station in the nose.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Noyhauser

[SchizophrenicMC]

Its also the most realistic option, as the fighter itself wouldn't have any major structural changes, just the removal of some of its nose sensor equipment, a cockpit redesign and the insertion of a mini-radar operator's station in the nose.

The nose-mounted operator's seat wouldn't work, realistically, anyway.

The cockpit instruments would have to be removed, to make room. Not good.

There's no room in the nose, anyway.

To make a 2-seater, the fuselage is cut away a little at the back of the canopy, a lengthened and heightened canopy is added, and the computer equipment behind the pilot is replaced by less complex equipment and a seat, for the copilot. That's not any structural modification. Replacing all of the stuff in the nose is.

Also, you try laying down in a high-g dogfight, in a claustrophobic space in a transforming giant robot. Not realistic, dude.

Besides all of that, the Radar operator's ALWAYS in the back... *This is supposed to sound like a childish whine*

[Noyhauser]

The nose-mounted operator's seat wouldn't work, realistically, anyway.

The cockpit instruments would have to be removed, to make room. Not good.

If you've got a YF-21 model in front of you I'd urge you to look at its cockpit and tell me there isn't any room. There is a shedload of space in front of the pilot, which provides a good starting point for a second person. In the 22, the space is used up by the supporting column for the control panel, but its size seems somewhat large when you compare it to the YF-19's panel and column. Replace the column with something smaller (or maybe even trying to suspend it from the canopy like the Yf-21) and you've already got a lot of space for an operator to sit.

If I seem a bit insistent on this, its because I've hacked the model apart recently to build a battroid conversion.

There's no room in the nose, anyway.

There is plenty of room if you downgrade the radar, which is realistic if you think about the new mission of the airframe.

To make a 2-seater, the fuselage is cut away a little at the back of the canopy, a lengthened and heightened canopy is added, and the computer equipment behind the pilot is replaced by less complex equipment and a seat, for the copilot. That's not any structural modification. Replacing all of the stuff in the nose is.

So, you're suggesting we don't remove the nose radar, which is certainly supplanted by the two massive radars now being carried. Instead the fighter should remove or install less complex computer equipment... which would be vital for the control of the two massive radar arrays now being carried.

Yeah, Great idea.

Also, you try laying down in a high-g dogfight, in a claustrophobic space in a transforming giant robot. Not realistic, dude.

This thing is a radar plane carrying a massive radome on its spine and massive wing like structure on the bottom. What High speed dogfights you would engage in carrying such equipment is beyond me, "dude."

Edited January 2, 2009 by Noyhauser

[SchizophrenicMC]

If you've got a YF-21 model in front of you I'd urge you to look at its cockpit and tell me there isn't any room. There is a shedload of space in front of the pilot, which provides a good starting point for a second person. In the 22, the space is used up by the supporting column for the control panel, but its size seems somewhat large when you compare it to the YF-19's panel and column. Replace the column with something smaller (or maybe even trying to suspend it from the canopy like the Yf-21) and you've already got a lot of space for an operator to sit.

If I seem a bit insistent on this, its because I've hacked the model apart recently to build a battroid conversion.

There is plenty of room if you downgrade the radar, which is realistic if you think about the new mission of the airframe.

So, you're suggesting we don't remove the nose radar, which is certainly supplanted by the two massive radars now being carried. Instead the fighter should remove or install less complex computer equipment... which would be vital for the control of the two massive radar arrays now being carried.

Yeah, Great idea.

This thing is a radar plane carrying a massive radome on its spine and massive wing like structure on the bottom. What High speed dogfights you would engage in carrying such equipment is beyond me, "dude."

This is not an AWACS plane. If it was, it'd be out of danger of getting into one. Since it's smaller, it's got to be in the thick of the battle. Look at the RVF-25. That thing can do it. Also, the smaller airframe is easier to get into those moves than an E-767. And for that matter, Variable Fighters find more combat in space where the drag created by the radome is no longer an issue, and if Gs were any issue, the thing wouldn't exist.

And, don't make fun of my language. It angers me so.

I never said, "we can't remove the nose radar." I said "There's no room in the nose." Look at a modern fighter jet. There is, literally, no space in the nose. The space, top to bottom, is about 1 and a half feet. This doesn't improve until you get to the cockpit, where it suddenly juts up. You lay down in that space for hours-long patrols, and tell me how you feel. Not to mention this thing's moving, and if it does get into a combat, high Gs, and transformation are only 2 more issues you'll face.

This isn't a YF-21. The model may be, but the end result's a VF-22. The VF-22 has large parts in the cockpit. Beyond that, we hit the afforementioned issue. Space in the nosecone.

Look at any 2-seater fighter jet and compare it to a single-seater variant of the same plane. This F-15, for example.

That was computer equipment and fuel tank behind the pilot. No longer necessary. Besides that, how about your "smaller panel"? If we're using smaller equipment, one would certainly hope the computers are smaller. Put that in the nose, my friend. Not the copilot.

Edited January 2, 2009 by SchizophrenicMC

[hobbes221]

If you're still looking at designs for the cockpit here are a pair of two-seaters that are a little different from the rest, a Mig-25 PU (I think) and a TA-4SU. Those Russians putting the second seat AHEAD of the original one

Not saying that these are the designs you need but they might help.

[anime52k8]

If you're still looking at designs for the cockpit here are a pair of two-seaters that are a little different from the rest, a Mig-25 PU (I think) and a TA-4SU. Those Russians putting the second seat AHEAD of the original one

Not saying that these are the designs you need but they might help.

I remember seeing an two-seat SV-51 made form a Hasegawa kit that had a similar configuration some time ago. anyone have a pic of it?

I kind of like how this guy did a 2 seat VF-22

Edited January 5, 2009 by anime52k8

[MechTech]

Easy fix: get a hole punch (the size you want), punch a clear piece out. Then drill the same diameter hole in the side where you want it to go. The shape is close in keeping with the concept. - MT

[jardann]

Why not just use sheet styrene and some stock styrene shapes from Evergreen or Plastruct to build up your extended cockpit? That stuff is easily available and easily glued cut and shaped. Form the general shape of what you want and then you can either build up the outside contours with small additions of more bits of styrene sheet or small applications of Bondo, Milliput or Aves Apoxie Sculpt etc. whatever you prefer. Just start with the basic shape and then add the more organic forms in little bits at a time.

Very cool idea by the way. if you can heat form some clear plastic over a sculpted plug, you could then pull off a nice big clear canopy like that camoflauged Russian jet in Hobbes last pic.

Edited January 5, 2009 by jardann

[hobbes221]

Very cool idea by the way. if you can heat form some clear plastic over a sculpted plug, you could then pull off a nice big clear canopy like that camoflauged Russian jet in Hobbes last pic.

That last bird is a A-4 Skyhawk used by Singapore, however it is the only model of Skyhawk to use that cockpit layout. Here is a little info from Wiki

The TA-4S trainers were not the standard TA-4 with a common cockpit for the student and instructor pilot, but were instead rebuilt by Lockheed with a 28-inch fuselage plug inserted into the front fuselage and a separate bulged cockpit (giving better all round visibility) for the instructor seated behind the student pilot. This arrangement was not the first by Lockheed as it had built the SR-71B Blackbird trainers utilising the same layout of stepped cockpits prior to refurbishing the A-4S for the RSAF.

[jardann]

Thanks for clearing that up. I should have known what that was. Now that I look again, I know I've seen pictures of that Skyhawk before. I'm just finishing up an OA-4M kit on my model bench. Your Wiki info makes me curious though. Why would Lockheed be performing modifications on a McDonnel-Douglass aircraft? Maybe Singapore just had a better business relationship with Lockheed.

Anyway, if he can pull it off, I think that style/configuration would look pretty cool on the VF-22. And the method to do it shouldn't be too difficult.

[007-vf1]

Well Noyhauser was right. You can fit a second seat on the forward part of the bubbly canopy of the VF-22. Unfortunately I started working on the VF-21 which canopy is way too shallow to accommodate a second crew member. Eventually I pulled out my VF-22 and found out I could have done the mods anyways. Then I was torn on destroying the cockpit that was already built to modify the second crew member or leave the extended the fuselage which i have already started on.. So I ended up extending the fuselage and leaving the original canopy intact ( less work to be honest..). I will add those wave/kotobukiya glass eyes on the co-pilot openings...

Now, the new observation is as it was mentioned before; should I shorten the tip of the fuselage since I added length to the middle part, or leave it long and compromise the possibly "structural strain" that extra length might cause in extreme combat ? Now it looks like the VF-4 or VF-2SS slanted fuselage

I am also adding a mock-up front I might end up modifying on the model; so in the end the Battroid doesn't look...errr; well endowed..?

Any suggestions?

Edited January 6, 2009 by 007-vf1

[Vostok 7]

If you're still looking at designs for the cockpit here are a pair of two-seaters that are a little different from the rest, a Mig-25 PU (I think) and a TA-4SU. Those Russians putting the second seat AHEAD of the original one

Not saying that these are the designs you need but they might help.

I love those MiG-25PUs. So unique. However, they are trainers and so they require the second person to have full view since he's a secondary pilot.

In a radar operator role, you don't need a fully glazed second cockpit. I really think that 007-vf1 was on the right track doing a enclosed rear cockpit for the radar operator. In line with planes like the MiG-31, SR-71, etc. Also, a enclosed cockpit fits better with the "stealth recon" idea that's going here. A fully glazed cockpit is a HUGE radar target.

Vostok 7

[D.D. Ivanov]

The MiG-31M has an even smaller backseat window than the original version.

[edwin3060]

I am also adding a mock-up front I might end up modifying on the model; so in the end the Battroid doesn't look...errr; well endowed..?

Any suggestions?

It should work, but it looks ugly as hell. Not to mention the jokes about kicking the battroid in the 'sensitive area' since all the sensors are there. I'd say stick with the original mode--fighter is where it's at!

Edited January 30, 2009 by edwin3060

[Macette]

Wow, this thing looks cool so far, can't wait to see finished product!

[shinagami]

hey, great idea...now i also was thinking of modding my yf-21, but my case is a 'salvation' from my 'destroyed' hase yf-21, svf-124 moonshooters and supersylph yukikaze due to my son's mischief...was thinking of putting all the salvaged parts in building one bomber or something...still on conceptual stage though, have lots to think about...anyway, keep up the good work.

Edited February 26, 2009 by shinagami

[Noyhauser]

Hey guys... I know 007 has already gone with a more conventional design, but I found this design pertinent to our earlier discussion, which I wanted to share for people's interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteo...2Prone_Pilot%22

Edited February 27, 2009 by Noyhauser

[007-vf1]

Hey guys... I know 007 has already gone with a more conventional design, but I found this design pertinent to our earlier discussion, which I wanted to share for people's interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteo...2Prone_Pilot%22

that's sweet. I haven't touch the YF 21 since last year. School is taking all of my time. I am hoping that for spring break i can finally tackle some of this stuff that's been sitting on my bench since the past Thanksgiving.

[007-vf1]

This thread has been lost in whatever-land by now...

i have a small update finally got most of the radome finished... I wish i could find a 1:100 scale Awacs instead of the only 1:72 option I got.