Nadia the Secret of Blue Water

[lord_breetai]

So I've so far watched the first 14 episodes of this Gainax series and I am very much enjoying it. It's steampunk setting is very much my cup of tea (it also doesn't hurt that Jean, Nadia and Electra's seiyuu would later play members of the Paris Kagekidan Group De' Fleur which really kinda helps me with the setting since I've heard those voices in similar context [For the reference Jean is Hidaka Noriko who plays Erica in ST as well as Noriko in Gunbuster, Nadia's seiyuu was Hanabi in ST and Electra was Kikuoe Inoue of Bellandy fame who would become Lobelia in the ST Paris group)

So here are my impressions, I've avoided spoilers on this. It seemed to me pretty obvious that Nemo is Nadia's father (and if not father then uncle or something) from the first episode he showed up in, before even that we saw the Orihalcon stone he has that Blue Water was cut out of.

As for the Eva parallels Keith keeps mentioning... I'm only seeing a couple... the use/misuse of biblical imagery (The Tower of Babel is a Superlaser... WTF?), the idea that because of the tree of knowldege and original sin humanity hurts each other as much as it helps, Nadia internalizing that, thinking people are awful for killing animals and each other... and her very black and white perspective on people resulting in confusion when those who she thinks are bad, or as has seen do bad things later show her or others kindness... And her confused feelings towards Jean, fighting with her desire to remain independent. I can see her becoming a slightly less messed up version of Shinji, in that she like Shinji has to choose to either hide from the world and shut it out to avoid pain or to embrace the positive aspects of being around fellow humans.

And I've heard much about how bad island episodes are... and so far I'm not seeing that, some of the best episodes have taken place on Islands. I was really chocked up when Nadia couldn't tell Marie her parents were dead, and Marie was saying she wanted to go to heaven. And the whole Tower of Babel arc was very, very exciting. Likewise the hunting episode really brought Nadia's conflicted feelings about the human race to the surface, and even Run, Marie Run... which seemed like a total filler episode at first (after the montage of play time set to the opening and several minutes straight of walking/running along a train track) really served to advance several key characters, particularly Nemo and Nadia's perspectives towards the neccesity of killing, in a do or die situation.

Cutest quote for the series so far has to go to Marie, on seeing the train track branch three ways and exclaiming in English "OH MY GOD!"

I also enjoyed the Gunbuster reference in episode 14 (they visit a place called Reef 64, which pronounciation wise in Japan is exactly the same as Leaf 64 the star where the discover the Space Monster Eggs in Gunbuster). Also is it just me or does the Nautilus look like a Buster Machine?

Music reminds me of Eva too.

Anyway I'll update as I watch more.

Edited December 31, 2008 by lord_breetai

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Hey breetai did you get the dvd sets, or was it on t.v?

It's funnyunny you should post this. I just finished watching the series the other day, from the ADV sets they released a few years ago, the ones that came with OST.

~Spiolers~ I loved it minus a few episodes (the africa one were Nadia falls in love, and pretty much snubs Jean). Overall I see similarties to Eva, like you stated as well as others. The island episode take place later in ther series. Are you talking about the island nadia and Jean were shot down on? Because if so, that is not the island episodes. Those are later, and they are "ho-hum" in my opinion. They weren't as bad as I was lead to believe, but they werent great either, save for the last one Jean saves Nadia, and they escape with the Grandius gang. The ending was awsome to and made me a little sad. Just beware of the movie. that thing is a peice of crap IMHO.

Edited December 31, 2008 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[Noriko Takaya]

There are a few references to Gunbuster in Nadia. Two ancient Atlantean battleships discovered beneath the sea are named the Eletrium and Excelion. There is also a Macross reference as Captain Nemo in this anime resembles Bruno J. Global, while wearing a uniform similar to that of Juzo Okita of Space Battleship Yamato.

Nadia's music was scored by Shiro Sagisu, who also scored Evangelion.

Keep with it. This series is great.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Noriko Takaya

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

There are a few references to Gunbuster in Nadia. Two ancient Atlantean battleships discovered beneath the sea are named as the Eletrium and Excelion. There is also a Macross reference as Captain Nemo in this anime resembles Bruno J. Global, while wearing a uniform similar to that of Juzo Okita Space Battleship Yamato.

Nadia's music was scored by Shiro Sagisu, who also scored Evangelion.

Keep with it. This series is great, and can be a little dark.

The score was awesome. I loved the Grandis gangs theme!

[Vifam7]

As for the Eva parallels Keith keeps mentioning... I'm only seeing a couple...

When you're finished watching, go to this site : http://www.thesecretofbluewater.com/nadieva-i.htm

[Keith]

While those episodes take place on Islands, they are not "the" Isladn episodes. Those don't start until ep 23.

[Wes]

We were taking about this a year ago and my opinion stands - Boring show is boring.

[Beltane70]

It's just like Keith says, you haven't seen the right Island epides. Thankfully, those episodes preceed Nadia's awesome finale.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

It's just like Keith says, you haven't seen the right Island epides. Thankfully, those episodes preceed Nadia's awesome finale.

Why were those episodes made anyways? Trying to give the staff more time to cobble up a good ending? The island episodes were okay. Terrible compared to the rest of the show. It was those episodes that strated me hating Nadia, and the african one too, mad that emotion stronger. Luckly she redeemed herself to me in the final episodes.

[lord_breetai]

While those episodes take place on Islands, they are not "the" Isladn episodes. Those don't start until ep 23.

We were taking about this a year ago and my opinion stands - Boring show is boring.

Ah I thought perhaps it was islands in general maybe the people liked it because they loved the nautical combat...

And that part I find kinda boring sometimes... Nautical combat with tense moments as they wonder if the Torpedo will hit them or not. just arn't my cup of tea. In small doses they're okay but episode after episode it's kind of grating so I like the land based episodes that break it up. Though ones like the mine-field are really fun.

The main appeal is the steampunk and the characters for me, sometimes I get a little bored with the underwater battles but over all it's keeping my interest.

[JTurner]

Why were those episodes made anyways? Trying to give the staff more time to cobble up a good ending? The island episodes were okay. Terrible compared to the rest of the show. It was those episodes that strated me hating Nadia, and the african one too, mad that emotion stronger. Luckly she redeemed herself to me in the final episodes.

The reason why those episodes were made was because the show was doing extremely well in Japan, so it was decided to extend the series. Unfortunately, NHK didn't provide Gainax enough time or money to produce them, so other animation studios in Japan and Korea were outsourced to make the animation. (This explains the awful animation quality.) Hideaki Anno and Gainax only outlined the specific parts of that sequence (Jean & Nadia reunited with their friends, relationship turns romantic, discovery of Red Noah) while the rest were pretty much tacked on without any thought or effort. FWIU, the Africa adventure, I think, was never supposed to happen, especially since Episode 35 quickly disregards it -- in addition to most of the other island episodes. Considering that the characters all act out of character in those two episodes (the Lincoln Island ones were similarly bad -- especially 26), it's hardly surprising that some merchandise books based on the show neglected that Africa arc and most of the Island eps.

Andd SkullLeaderVF-X, I really don't blame you for disliking Nadia during that portion of the show. In the opening 22 episodes she was portrayed as an imperfect but interesting "real" person, but the horrible episodes really destroyed her personality -- blame that on rushed scriptwriting. I think the final Island episode (#31) was the only one that had any actual value to the plot. Even Hideaki Anno admitted that he would have saved only that particular episode (in addition to #30) but completely leave out eps. 23-29 and 32-34 if he had more creative control over the plot. Considering the messy results of the second half, I honestly can't blame him. It's no wonder that most reviewers and fans suggest skipping past these episodes. As for the movie... Anno had nothing to do with it, just like those aforementioned filler episodes. That explains its quality.

Edited January 2, 2009 by JTurner

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

The movie is really,really,really, bad. Story and animation wise. The only thing good, was the flashbacks, and that was because they used recycled animation from the t.v series.

Edited January 2, 2009 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[JTurner]

The movie is really,really,really, bad. Story and animation wise. The only thing good, was the flashbacks, and that was because they used recycled animation from the t.v series.

Again, the reason why the film was made was just to cash in on the show, just like those filler episodes. Obviously, it shows, due to the inconsistent characterizations and the subpar storylines and animation.

[lord_breetai]

I think the final Island episode (#31) was the only one that had any actual value to the plot. Even Hideaki Anno admitted that he would have saved only that particular episode (in addition to #30) but completely leave out eps. 23-29 and 32-34 if he had more creative control over the plot. Considering the messy results of the second half, I honestly can't blame him. It's no wonder that most reviewers and fans suggest skipping past these episodes. As for the movie... Anno had nothing to do with it, just like those aforementioned filler episodes. That explains its quality.

Okay well I'd like to watch it all just to see what was actually going on. so maybe I'll skip them then watch them after I finish the rest of the series?

[Keith]

Okay well I'd like to watch it all just to see what was actually going on. so maybe I'll skip them then watch them after I finish the rest of the series?

No, I'd watch everything in order (except for the movie, skip that like the plague). The island episodes do have some interesting Gainax-isms, just remember significant awesomeness awaits you after them.

[Beltane70]

Yes, definitely skip the movie. It adds nothing of value to Nadia name.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

No, I'd watch everything in order (except for the movie, skip that like the plague). The island episodes do have some interesting Gainax-isms, just remember significant awesomeness awaits you after them.

man Keith. Where were you, to give me this warning?

The moive totally blows. What was it's name anyways? "The secret of Fuzzy"?

[Keith]

man Keith. Where were you, to give me this warning?

The moive totally blows. What was it's name anyways? "The secret of Fuzzy"?

No, the secret of FUDGY! LOL

[lord_breetai]

Okay I've hit the island episodes... umm I think they're entertaining in their own right but it's a bit of a C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-ombo breaker in this series. As a steampunk take on the whole castaway cliche' I still enjoy it. But characterization is crap compared to before.

Why does Nadia still want to go to Africa so much anyway? They still talk about Africa like it's her homeland when she should know from Electra's speech that her homeland is Atlantis.

[Keith]

Okay I've hit the island episodes... umm I think they're entertaining in their own right but it's a bit of a C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-ombo breaker in this series. As a steampunk take on the whole castaway cliche' I still enjoy it. But characterization is crap compared to before.

Why does Nadia still want to go to Africa so much anyway? They still talk about Africa like it's her homeland when she should know from Electra's speech that her homeland is Atlantis.

Because rather than fudge in 10-11 episodes of filler, Anno walked out on Gainax (first time, second time was after Kare Kano), and others were left to stitch them in. Just be glad he finished planning work on the rest of the series first, you'll see the switch back to mainline episodes.

[lord_breetai]

Because rather than fudge in 10-11 episodes of filler, Anno walked out on Gainax (first time, second time was after Kare Kano), and others were left to stitch them in. Just be glad he finished planning work on the rest of the series first, you'll see the switch back to mainline episodes.

yeah that explains the bad chaterization but unless they wern't paying attention, they should know Nadia would know that Africa isn't her home.

[JTurner]

yeah that explains the bad chaterization but unless they wern't paying attention, they should know Nadia would know that Africa isn't her home.

That's just one of the many problems with these episodes; the characterizations are not consistent with the characters' personalities in episodes 1-22.

However, the filler episodes that really stink are Episode 26 (for not only having a stupid plot and characterizations, but also for wasting half of the episode with a dreadfully pointless dream sequence) and the Africa episodes -- 32 and 33 -- THOSE are the worst of the show. If you decide to sit through them, be warned--they are that painful.

-Jon T.

[lord_breetai]

heh I kinda liked the one episode that was one character theme after another.

So I finished the series, and I gotta it was very very good... but I still don't see it as totally being on the same level as Eva. Yes it had themes of "should humanity be allowed to exist, or have free reign over itself." but so did Gunbuster, it's a common theme in a lot of Anno's work. Also well Nadia did spend a lot of the series waffling over liking or hating humanity, by the end she had pretty much made up her mind.

Yeah I can see how ideas from Nadia were brought over to Eva, but I see it as being more of a progression and evolution of those ideas from Gunbuster to Nadia to Eva rather then any of them being rehashes of the same arguements for and against humanity.

Certainly scenes like when Electra pulls the gun on Nemo would be mirrored in Evangelion... but yeah.

Really it turning out that Gargoyle was just a human after all and only the royal family were true Atlanteans was a pretty effective ending... at the end all of Gargoyle's ambitions were only greed he was was no more capable then any human being (well maybe a bit... but he wasn't superior). It's a good commentary on any kind of racial theory.

I hate epilogues where "everyone goes their own seperate ways and this happened to this person, and this happened to that"

Overall this has become one of my top series of all time... probably standing along side Sakura Taisen for steampunk works for me... as a high adventure story it was really top notch.

I will have to buy the DVDs.

[JTurner]

heh I kinda liked the one episode that was one character theme after another.

That episode in question I think was supposed to be something more ambitious, but due to budgetary problems, they couldn't produce what they wanted, hence the recapped footage. It's also the tail end of what I think is the lowest point of Nadia: the Africa sequence. There I felt all the characterizations were totally destroyed, and the animation and the dialogue were worse. Not only that, but the newer characters introduced were not even remotely INTERESTING; Grandis' ex-fiance was especially bad. Plus, considering that Nadia had admitted that Jean was more important to her than the Blue Water, and hey, rushed into his arms nude, you know that her sudden 180 turn in the subsequent episodes feels very out of place and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. (Not to mention totally out of character--the Island episodes were guilty of messing with her personality and relationships with her friends, but it is far, far worse.) Even for a character at odds with her own views of the world, it just didn't fit. Again, episode 35 disregards this substory and acts like it never existed.

All in all, NADIA is indeed a fine show, but it's too bad that it suffers from such a terrible filler arc. Even Hideaki Anno admitted to being dissastified with the final result. As a matter of fact, the closest to a streamlined version of NADIA that he came to was with "The Nautilus Story", where the island/Africa episodes are all but omitted save ep. 31, and the story concentrates more on the struggle between Nemo and Gargoyle. Pity that version's only available in Japan.

Edited January 4, 2009 by JTurner

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I hate epilogues where "everyone goes their own seperate ways and this happened to this person, and this happened to that"

All I have to say is Sanson has the lolicon fever. He married Marie. If the math is correct, she is 16 and he is 34!!! Someone's been hanging around MisaForever and mini Klan too much. j/k

[Keith]

Well, at that point Marie was going to end up with either Sanson or King, and they went the less disturbing route.

As for future Eva isms, the one that stood out most to me was Adam, as well as Neo Atlantis's setup barring a striking resemblance to Seele. Perhaps I was a little vague, but much of what went into Nadia evolved into Evangelion. Red Noa/Blue Noa being the arc's that brought life to Earth share a lot in common with black & white moon eggs of Lilith. Full scale assault of the Nautilus & same on Nerv. Many story element parallels between the shows. But Gargoyle turning out to be human was one of the alltime great plot twists. And it's just too bad Ritsuko couldn't shine as brightly a character as Electra.

I just wish Nadia had gotten the 4 brand new movie remake treatment instead of Eva, as Nadia really could have benefitted from story streamlining & updated animation.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Keith

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Well, at that point Marie was going to end up with either Sanson or King, and they went the less disturbing route.

I just wish Nadia had gotten the 4 brand new movie remake treatment instead of Eva, as Nadia really could have benefitted from story streamlining & updated animation.

Well That would have been a very interesting ending. And would also explain the multiple Kings at the end of the series.

I wish too, that they would have done the 4 new movie remake. Since the original movie suck so much, and also like you said the t.v series could benefit from a little streamlining and updated visuals.

[lord_breetai]

Well, at that point Marie was going to end up with either Sanson or King, and they went the less disturbing route.

As for future Eva isms, the one that stood out most to me was Adam, as well as Neo Atlantis's setup barring a striking resemblance to Seele. Perhaps I was a little vague, but much of what went into Nadia evolved into Evangelion. Red Noa/Blue Noa being the arc's that brought life to Earth share a lot in common with black & white moon eggs of Lilith. Full scale assault of the Nautilus & same on Nerv. Many story element parallels between the shows. But Gargoyle turning out to be human was one of the alltime great plot twists. And it's just too bad Ritsuko couldn't shine as brightly a character as Electra.

I just wish Nadia had gotten the 4 brand new movie remake treatment instead of Eva, as Nadia really could have benefitted from story streamlining & updated animation.

Yeah well you had me expecting some mutant hybrid of Eva and Laputa here. I was expecting in the end for Nadia to be hooked up to some Atlantean Super Computer, that would ask "Princess do you want to wipe the world clean?" and than have her angsting over her whole life and how much she hates herself and how much she thinks humans are decietful hurtful creatures... well you know the rest.

Yes Adam struck me too... and the fact that they exprimented with different life forms before settling on humans.

I don't really see the attack on the Nautilus as being the same because Nerv was supposed to be working for Seele, and both sides knew it would eventually boil down to something like that.

Though one superficial connection is the fact that Neo's power cord seemed a lot like an Eva's, and that he could still move with no power to protect the one he loved seemed kinda Eva-esc too.

The revelation that Gargoyle was a regular Earth human took me by suprise, I should have seen it coming in retrospect given how many times he refuted that fact (though he of course believed he was true Atlantean). And it's rare when I don't see something coming so it's pretty nice in that respect.

What I do see, is a carried over theme about how flawed humanity is, and how it should be wiped out or free will should be taken away... but in the end despite that it may be worth saving.

In Gunbuster it was really subdued, a scientist mentioning that the Uchuu Kaijuu were antibodies and that the human race was a disease and garbage... and Kazumi debating if humanity had a right to even try to fight back while heading to Buster Machine 3 (and in the end, she still didn't know if it was right only that they had to do what they could)

In Nadia it becomes a theme embodied by the warring ideals of Nemo and Gargoyle... and to a lesser extent the internal conflict of Nadia.

In Evangelion, it again becomes a conflict between Seele and Nerv (to some extent) and an over-arching theme in Shinji's thought process and the focus of the finale. In Eva it explores much more what it means to be human, to be alive, to have free will where the other series foccused more on the morality of the issue.

I don't know if I'm making sense here...

[JTurner]

I just wish Nadia had gotten the 4 brand new movie remake treatment instead of Eva, as Nadia really could have benefitted from story streamlining & updated animation.

Actually, I DID hear from another source that Anno DID have interest in doing a movie of Nadia in the similar vein that he's doing the Eva movies--in particular, he wanted to do a major cut/rework of the island/Africa filler sequence. Unfortunately, NHK wanted to tell an entirely new story. So it ended up being a very messy brawl that ultimately resulted with the movie being 1/3 recap (badly edited too) and 2/3 a new story with none of the depth of the series' central arc. The resulting movie, aka "Secret of Fuzzy" bombed, and Anno distanced himself from NHK after that... but not before making the Nautilus Story compilation I mentioned earlier. I can only wonder how the series would have turned out if Anno had more control over it... or better yet, if Hayao Miyazaki was in charge! Now THAT would be something to see.

-Jon T.

[blacklotus]

Thanks to everyone here for the info on the back-office production politics. I was always wondering why a good show turned ugly near the middle.

It started out as a fine turn of the century HG Wells 20,000 leagues under the sea type of story, and ended up badly.

As for the Tower of Babel becoming a superlaser tower, apparently the idea is not new. Microsoft Age of Empires 1 has that in the pc game too.

Is there any supporting legend for that idea? All I know is God decides that building a stupid tower to reach the sky is a waste of time and resources for humans, and decided there and then to make humans speak in different languages and go their own ways to do more productive things.

[JTurner]

Thanks to everyone here for the info on the back-office production politics. I was always wondering why a good show turned ugly near the middle.

It started out as a fine turn of the century HG Wells 20,000 leagues under the sea type of story, and ended up badly.

As for the Tower of Babel becoming a superlaser tower, apparently the idea is not new. Microsoft Age of Empires 1 has that in the pc game too.

Is there any supporting legend for that idea? All I know is God decides that building a stupid tower to reach the sky is a waste of time and resources for humans, and decided there and then to make humans speak in different languages and go their own ways to do more productive things.

Yes, the second half of Nadia is truly terrible, but at least it DOES have a satisfying ending (35-39), and the two episodes that start the second half (21 and 22) are technically the conclusion of the superior first arc. I do think the show plays better overall when watched as 1-22, parts of 30, 31, and 35-39, because I think that's what Gainax had in mind when they decided to do this show.

[Graham]

My only exposure to Nadia is the god awful movie.

I remember seeing it at the cinema as part of a double bill when Gundam F-91 came out.

I think 99.99% of the people in the cinema had come to watch F-91. Unfortunately, they showed Nadia before F-91, so everybody had to sit through it before we got to see F-91.

I remember people in the cinema were actually heckling and booing the Nadia movie. God, it was boring.

Graham

[Keith]

Just remember Graham, that movie was "not" Nadia, it was some horrible abonimation posing as.

Is there any supporting legend for that idea? All I know is God decides that building a stupid tower to reach the sky is a waste of time and resources for humans, and decided there and then to make humans speak in different languages and go their own ways to do more productive things.

Specifically, unified humans building a tower to reach heaven, god says "hell no, you can't touch me, and just for that, ya'll nigga's won't be able to understand each other now either" for good measure. Had nothing to do with being "productive," it's just a story instilling the belief that A:you can't touch heaven if you ain't been invited," and B:god wants you to be ignorant. Crazy religious parables.

As for Nadia, technically it wasn't a super laser, just a highly mis-used comm tower.

[Black Valkyrie]

I really like the series but never completed it, almost over a decade ago. That reminds me the character design resembles Mikimoto.

[blacklotus]

I really like the series but never completed it, almost over a decade ago. That reminds me the character design resembles Mikimoto.

If I recall correctly, it is by Him.