The VF-0s, what happened to them?

[Vostok 7]

So I was thinking about this the other day.

We know that the VF-0s were a "test-bed" of sorts for the VF-1 and that they were both made pretty concurrently, but the VF-0 was made in much smaller numbers. In universe, it seems that the VF-1 just completely replaced all the VF-0s and all the VF-0s just "disappeared". But that's pretty wasteful for the UN to spend all that money making a variable fighter they only used for one year as a stop-gap before the VF-1 was released.

I would hypothesize that once the VF-1 was released and the bugs were worked out of the thermonuclear reactor engines, the VF-0s were subsequently upgraded with systems and engines from the VF-1s and kept in service for at least a little while. Like Block 6 VF-1s they would be called "VF-0x Plus" models, i.e. VF-0A+, VF-0S+, etc. etc. Single seat models like the -0A, -0S (commander) and the -0C (fixed delta wing, single seat) would be standard fighters, probably used in some special field (like for aces who had the most seat time in them and were more effective with them). The two seat variants, like the -0B (swing wing, two seat) and -0D (fixed delta wing, two seat) would become combat trainers at least until the -1D was delivered and probably still afterwards in some units.

This just makes more sense rather than just mothballing all the VF-0s (even though there weren't many) within a year of release. Then of course, by the time that the late-war Block 6 'Plus' VF-1s began to be delivered (3-4 years after the deployment of the original VF-1), the VF-0 models would finally begin to be mothballed.

Similarly, I would imagine the SV-51 was upgraded and used by Soviet Bloc units (in assistance to the UN since in Macross lore the Soviet Union is a member of the UN) until every unit was issued VF-1s. More than likely the 6 SV-51 two seaters (which assumedly would be called SV-51Us) would be kept in service for a reasonable amount of time.

Vostok 7

[Mr March]

I think they most likely were destroyed along with nearly everything else in the final Zentradi assault.

[Vostok 7]

I think they most likely were destroyed along with nearly everything else in the final Zentradi assault.

Yeah, but there was some time between the start of SW1 and when that happened. And that's assuming they stayed atmospheric-only fighters. If they had been upgraded, there's no reason they couldn't become fully space capable like the VF-1, considering they already were partially space capable for a limited time period.

Vostok 7

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, there were so few produced, I don't think enough survived to upgrade. I mean, Focker's was practically in ruins, all of the CFs were downed, and the 4 0Ds weren't ever seen again... Maybe what was left was Graveyarded, like the F-14...

[hobbes221]

Well I don't think that we really get a good feel for what was going on back on Earth for most of SDFM so who knows there could have been a fair number of VF-0s running around. Or there could have been problems with the design and it was scraped in favor of the VF-1. From a Navy stand point once the war kicked off there could have been a focus on the VF-1 as it is smaller and has a smaller footprint on deck allowing for more to be packed into the carriers giving a larger airwing. Looking at the VF-0 I always felt that it seems to have a 'strike' look to it (even more so with the VF-0D), I would love to see some VF-1 (or even VF-25s) escorting some VF-0s all loaded up for some air to ground action, but that's just me

[JB0]

Well I don't think that we really get a good feel for what was going on back on Earth for most of SDFM so who knows there could have been a fair number of VF-0s running around. Or there could have been problems with the design and it was scraped in favor of the VF-1.

Remember, the VF-0 was never INTENDED to enter mass-production. The only reason it ever saw combat was the VF-1 introduction was delayed due to difficulties with the fusion turbines.

It was always supposed to be a testbed, and nothing more.

Honestly, I think it woulda been interesting if all the VF-0s we saw in Zero were rigged differently, better accentuating their status as a technology testbed.

It's pretty much the only place where Macross has a legitimate excuse to pull a Gundam and give everyone unique mecha.

[taksraven]

Remember, the VF-0 was never INTENDED to enter mass-production. The only reason it ever saw combat was the VF-1 introduction was delayed due to difficulties with the fusion turbines.

It was always supposed to be a testbed, and nothing more.

That was put into service probably in a panic when it was realised that the anti-UN forces had their own variable units that were routinely trashing F-14's, aircraft carriers and anything else they could get near.

BTW, how many variable fighters were the Anti-Un forces supposed to have produced?

Taksraven

[hobbes221]

Remember, the VF-0 was never INTENDED to enter mass-production. The only reason it ever saw combat was the VF-1 introduction was delayed due to difficulties with the fusion turbines.

It was always supposed to be a testbed, and nothing more.

Honestly, I think it woulda been interesting if all the VF-0s we saw in Zero were rigged differently, better accentuating their status as a technology testbed.

It's pretty much the only place where Macross has a legitimate excuse to pull a Gundam and give everyone unique mecha.

Good points on both, but just because it was never intended to happen does not mean that it could not have happened (just having fun with ideas and all that). They would have had the tooling and such in place so who knows what could have happened. And I thought that the -0s were meant to have fusion turbines but were given turbofans due to delays with the turbines?

I would much rather have seen testbed, prototype and preproduction VF-1s in Zero than a whole new VF.

[azrael]

That was put into service probably in a panic when it was realised that the anti-UN forces had their own variable units that were routinely trashing F-14's, aircraft carriers and anything else they could get near.

BTW, how many variable fighters were the Anti-Un forces supposed to have produced?

The AUN forces had around 40 units available.

Chances are that those they had on-board with them (both VF-0s and SV-51s) were cannibalized for parts to repair the usable fighters. The VF-1s already went into mass production. Why bother making parts for a VF-0 when the VF-1 was on it's way.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The VF-0s did have nose-mounted sensors only seen on test planes... Does that count?

Lessee... The VF-0 is explicitly stated to have meant to have TRTs... Then, there were problems... Luckily, the nacelles were large enough for conventional, fueled turbines. If it were the VF-1, they'd be screwed...

@Hobbes, SDFM 33 wasn't enough for you? We got to see Roy in a test VF then...

[splatcat]

I always figured most of them were destroyed in the first war and by the time the world was rearming for SDFM the VF-1 was the focus.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Whatever wasn't destroyed was probably graveyarded, then destroyed in the final Zentraedi assault.

A slightly unrelated note: Yes. Yes, the UN LOVES to throw money in the can. Why do you think there are so many cannon fodders?

Edited December 23, 2008 by SchizophrenicMC

[Vostok 7]

The AUN forces had around 40 units available.

32 SV-51 'CFs', 6 SV-51 two seat trainers and an unknown number of tuned Ace variants.

That's total production though. Remember, Sukhoi, Dornier and IAI were companies in countries under the control of the UN (At least the Soviet Union was specifically a UN member at that time, and Sukhoi was the primary behind the SV-51) so how the AUN got a hold of them in the first place is an unknown, and if they had them ALL is also unknown. It would have been a pretty major flub up for Sukhoi to sell their total production of revolutionary Air-Superiority Variable Fighters to a faction against the governmental organization they are supposed to be a part of!

Vostok 7

[Vostok 7]

A slightly unrelated note: Yes. Yes, the UN LOVES to throw money in the can. Why do you think there are so many cannon fodders?

And destroids too, I guess, don't forget destroids!

Vostok 7

[Nied]

Remember that the 0s in the show were shown to be real hangar queens, probably due to the fact that, as test beds, no two planes were exactly alike. It only would have gotten worse as keeping the supply of specialized spares for such a small number of fighters (if they even shared many standardized parts between any two mecha) would have become a bigger and bigger pain in the ass. I wouldn't be surprised if it was cheaper to buy a brand new VF-1 and get the huge supply and maintenance chain behind it than pay for even a year of lifecycle costs on a VF-0 even with upgrades.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Ah, yes. Destroids. This brings me back to a bit of... Erm... Robotech art... It's Robotech, no doubt... It's my Dad's, ok? The book was made in 1986... There was a Tomahawk with the entire left arm assembly (And its mounting point) blown off. Said US Army on the foot... Friggin' Robotech... Oh well, it got my family into Macross...

[Nied]

Ah, yes. Destroids. This brings me back to a bit of... Erm... Robotech art... It's Robotech, no doubt... It's my Dad's, ok? The book was made in 1986... There was a Tomahawk with the entire left arm assembly (And its mounting point) blown off. Said US Army on the foot... Friggin' Robotech... Oh well, it got my family into Macross...

IIRC that picture (including the US Army on the leg) is actually taken from one of the reconstruction episodes of Macross (obviously it went into Robotech too).

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Shin's 0A is still out there... somewhere...

[Skull1986]

Before planes started costing in the tens of millions of dollars, it wasn't that unusual to do an early pre-production and destroy a half-dozen or more planes during the early evaluation process.

Prior to its deployment in the early 1960s on-board Navy supercarriers, there were 47 A-model/pre-production series F-4 Phantom IIs built for the US Navy. They were pretty much all destroyed or worn out during testing and evaluation, setting world records, or retired to the Boneyard in Arizona and scrapped. As of the early 1980s, I think only 2-3 tops survived.

These planes were never intended to be used in frontline combat and basically were used to verify the soundness of the airframe design and integration of the avionics and engines.

Right now, it's just gotten too expensive to build a lot of prototypes and development planes. Legislators also expect the majority of these planes -- even if only 6-7 preproduction planes get built(!) -- to go into service.

Macross exists in another timeline and even something like 18 months prior to the SDF-1 launch they were still locked in a world war. Peace time rules and conservation do not apply during a big war!

[Vostok 7]

Before planes started costing in the tens of millions of dollars, it wasn't that unusual to do an early pre-production and destroy a half-dozen or more planes during the early evaluation process.

Prior to its deployment in the early 1960s on-board Navy supercarriers, there were 47 A-model/pre-production series F-4 Phantom IIs built for the US Navy. They were pretty much all destroyed or worn out during testing and evaluation, setting world records, or retired to the Boneyard in Arizona and scrapped. As of the early 1980s, I think only 2-3 tops survived.

These planes were never intended to be used in frontline combat and basically were used to verify the soundness of the airframe design and integration of the avionics and engines.

Right now, it's just gotten too expensive to build a lot of prototypes and development planes. Legislators also expect the majority of these planes -- even if only 6-7 preproduction planes get built(!) -- to go into service.

Macross exists in another timeline and even something like 18 months prior to the SDF-1 launch they were still locked in a world war. Peace time rules and conservation do not apply during a big war!

You have a point.

It's just sad that such beautiful designs (both the VF-0 all variants and the SV-51) were 'one time use only' so-to-speak.

I'd imagine some hung around as "museum" pieces or something. Though, the program was kept secret for some time I understand.

Vostok 7

Edited December 23, 2008 by Vostok 7

[Einherjar]

Is it possible that most of the VF-0s were destroyed due to the Mayan Island incident? Since they were produced in small numbers, perhaps all of them were sent to the conflict specifically to fight the SV-51 as the field test for the program, but it ended very unexpectedly. Most of the pilots didn't fare well and the UNS fleet sent there really took a beating.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'm pretty sure it's Robotech Art. The styling is WAY off of Macross... If I had a scanner (Or a camera...), I'd post it... Hell, the damned thing looks American. Lazy artists, and such... Also, the Left arm was off. In Macross, it had no Right arm. I can read "US ARMY" on the leg, same as the Macross one, but it's flipped. The background may or may not have been different. Can't remember the book's.

ANYWAY:

Vostok: The VF-0s and the Mayan Island Incident were kept at top-secret level for 50 years, up until 2058. Shortly later, someone decided to make a film... And thus, we had Macross Frontier Episode 10. Since the 0s are secret (Whatever's left), they wouldn't be in the Smithsonian, dontchaknow. It's my assumption that the 0s in "All That VF Zero" are new versions, constructed from the schematics of old, for the 50th anniversary of the design, the end of the Unification War, and the release of the info about the MII. I think it's safe to assume these rebuilt models had TRTs.

Shin's 0A was destroyed when Shin met up with Sara... Yes... The whole story's too sappy for this forum...

Skull '86 brings a pretty valid point. Though, I gotta say, I can't remember the YF-14 ever seeing service... Or a carrier deck... Hmm.... Oh well.

[Mr March]

Before planes started costing in the tens of millions of dollars, it wasn't that unusual to do an early pre-production and destroy a half-dozen or more planes during the early evaluation process.

Prior to its deployment in the early 1960s on-board Navy supercarriers, there were 47 A-model/pre-production series F-4 Phantom IIs built for the US Navy. They were pretty much all destroyed or worn out during testing and evaluation, setting world records, or retired to the Boneyard in Arizona and scrapped. As of the early 1980s, I think only 2-3 tops survived.

These planes were never intended to be used in frontline combat and basically were used to verify the soundness of the airframe design and integration of the avionics and engines.

Right now, it's just gotten too expensive to build a lot of prototypes and development planes. Legislators also expect the majority of these planes -- even if only 6-7 preproduction planes get built(!) -- to go into service.

That's an interesting fact I didn't know. Makes sense too.

In the case of Macross, the mass availability of cheap OverTechnology probably made producing lots of prototypes a reality again. At least in the short term. The Super Nova AVF competition seemed to produce only two prototypes of each variable fighter.

[SchizophrenicMC]

That's an interesting fact I didn't know. Makes sense too.

In the case of Macross, the mass availability of cheap OverTechnology probably made producing lots of prototypes a reality again. At least in the short term. The Super Nova AVF competition seemed to produce only two prototypes of each variable fighter.

Well, considering how expensive a VF-1 is, I'd not be surprised if it was the fact that they were fighting a losing war, or something...

And, didn't Yang say "...Four of them used up their health insurance. And two of them received a considerable promotion. The commendations they were buried with are guaranteed to last a lifetime." This tells me at least 6 YF-19s were produced. (Earlier line "...It needed repairs...", so not 7)

Not sure of the 21..

[Mr March]

Not necessarily. Isamu almost died and was hospitalized after the City course fight with Guld, but his YF-19 Prototype was repaired. The earlier test pilots could easily have been injured or perished in similar ways while the YF-19 prototype No.2 could have survived. Especially since we're talking about OverTechnology craft which can sustain far more of a beating than conventional military craft of our modern age.

[Bri]

During the late 40s the development of jets went into overdrive. Some models were obsolete by the time they entered service cause of quantum leaps in technology. Assuming scientists were still digging up the secrets of over-technologie from the SDF-1 Macross during the development of the VF-0 and VF-1. Its quite possible that by the time the VF-0 was ready the things learned made it completly obsolete compared to the VF-1 on every front. It may just not have been worth to update them and scrapping them might have been a cheaper option.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Not necessarily. Isamu almost died and was hospitalized after the City course fight with Guld, but his YF-19 Prototype was repaired. The earlier test pilots could easily have been injured or perished in similar ways while the YF-19 prototype No.2 could have survived. Especially since we're talking about OverTechnology craft which can sustain far more of a beating than conventional military craft of our modern age.

That still leaves me with 3. A crash bad enough to kill the pilot in one of those would surely cripple the plane to the point where a new one had to be built. Even with OT and its benefits, crashing a chunk of flying metal into the ground at Mach 2+ would destroy it. The YF-19 was damaged due to gunpod fire, right? It's been awhile since I saw Plus... Anyway, I think there are more prototypes than we see in Plus. It only makes sense. There were a bunch of YF-14s, 22s, and 23s... I don't see how sufficient combat and aeronautical data could be collected from even two prototypes. They'd be worn to nothing by then...

[akt_m]

At the time Kawamori didn't have designed the VF-0 yet, thus the reason why it doesn't apear on SDF Macross. Close topic?

[Vostok 7]

During the late 40s the development of jets went into overdrive. Some models were obsolete by the time they entered service cause of quantum leaps in technology. Assuming scientists were still digging up the secrets of over-technologie from the SDF-1 Macross during the development of the VF-0 and VF-1. Its quite possible that by the time the VF-0 was ready the things learned made it completly obsolete compared to the VF-1 on every front. It may just not have been worth to update them and scrapping them might have been a cheaper option.

I did some more reading and according to the Macross Compendium the VF-0 had been in development since 2002 and the first examples were flying by 2004. So I suppose it wasn't a 'one year deal' as I had initially thought. The VF-1 was also planned at the same time but the designing wasn't even complete until 2005, with the VF-X-1 first flying in 2007.

So, essentially, to compare to RW time frame, the VF-0 and SV-51 were generation 4.5 fighters where the VF-1 was a full generation 5 fighter. (see: 4th Generation Fighter)

I wouldn't say that the technology used on the VF-0 was 'completely obsolete' by the time the VF-1 was delivered. It's been pretty clear that the VF-0 was nearly a match for the VF-1 except for being HUGE (and therefore less maneuverable and more fragile) and having underpowered engines and slightly less advanced equipment (weapons are slightly smaller and slightly weaker, avionics are slightly weaker, etc.). But that doesn't mean that the airframe wouldn't have been upgradeable. Comparing again to RW, you see aging airframes constantly updated with the latest and greatest. Most fighters in the US inventory for example are designs that are going on 30+ years old, but they have been constantly upgraded to stay up with current technology.

Vostok 7

[Mr March]

At the time Kawamori didn't have designed the VF-0 yet, thus the reason why it doesn't apear on SDF Macross. Close topic?

I believe the OP was asking for an in-universe answer.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Hm... Well, in that case, I WAS RIGHT! VF-0s ARE COOLER!

[Vostok 7]

Hm... Well, in that case, I WAS RIGHT! VF-0s ARE COOLER!

Don't get me wrong, I love the classic VF-1, but there's something really gorgeous about the VF-0. And I love the -0A head design, it's a little more 'interesting' than the old-school -1A's head.

Vostok 7

[taksraven]

At the time Kawamori didn't have designed the VF-0 yet, thus the reason why it doesn't apear on SDF Macross. Close topic?

Are you saying that there was RETCONNING going on in Macross Zero!!!!!????

Taksraven

Edited December 23, 2008 by taksraven

[Vostok 7]

Are you saying that there was RETCONNING going on in Macross Zero!!!!!????

Taksraven

I know why there was no VF-0 in any of the other series (conveniently the files were kept secret until Macross F was made AFTER Macross Zero ), but as Mr. March said, I was asking in-universe.

Vostok 7

[Nied]

I wouldn't say that the technology used on the VF-0 was 'completely obsolete' by the time the VF-1 was delivered. It's been pretty clear that the VF-0 was nearly a match for the VF-1 except for being HUGE (and therefore less maneuverable and more fragile) and having underpowered engines and slightly less advanced equipment (weapons are slightly smaller and slightly weaker, avionics are slightly weaker, etc.). But that doesn't mean that the airframe wouldn't have been upgradeable. Comparing again to RW, you see aging airframes constantly updated with the latest and greatest. Most fighters in the US inventory for example are designs that are going on 30+ years old, but they have been constantly upgraded to stay up with current technology.

Vostok 7

It doesn't have to be completely obsolete It just has to be obsolete enough, that the price of upgrading it and the price of keeping it running are more than the price of buying a new VF-1 and maintaining that. Given what a maintenance hog the VF-0 was shown to be it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the UN Spacy just decided they cost too much to fly. There's plenty of real world examples of aircraft that weren't completely obsolete but were nonetheless retired because the price of keeping them flying was more than buying a new aircraft outright (The F-117 and F-14 come immediately to mind).