reeoyuy Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Well I'm not Bandai insider,and all those things I said are something that Bandai or production crew likely won't confirm. I didn't try to convince you, just my theories that I conclude from what I've seen and gather since the first ever trailer. Honestly, I don't understand what you mean with continuity break, it's actually flow much better than SEED to Destiny. The challenges that CB faces are different on both season and this movie. They progressively moving on to different kind of conflict, not repeating the same conflict again and again. Is it too hasty to introduce aliens? Looking back to season 1, we didn't know that there will be this "innovator" thing complete with glowing eyes. We thought we won't have newtype-ism phenomenon like that but then we have it. Without any hints. At that point, we should've ready for anything. Even aliens. It's not surprising that aliens appeared on OO universe (cause anything can happen there). Yes it looks like a hasty move to end OO just like that but that's what makes this movie necessary. To end OO universe entirely. Endless Waltz ended Wing by having the pilots sever the ties with their gundams forever. Char's Counterattack kills both Amuro and Char so we can move on to F91 and leave that Amuro-Char rivalry behind. This movie ended up OO story when humans finally contacted and coexisted with aliens so they can move on to other things like exploring the universe instead of, say, fighting each other endlessly. Or do you prefer the movie ended with CB solving another human conflict then disbanded without being assured that humans won't get into another conflict again? Now that's what I called hasty.
Gui Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) In all honnesty, I didn't want any movie to begin with: the second season's end was fine as is. And I don't try to convince anyone of anything: I'm just stating my opinion, which is obviously discussable like all opinions. What I meant about continuity break is: there has never been aliens in Gundam so far, therefore introducing aliens is some sort of continuity break – and it would have been more welcome in another Gundam universe instead of the 00 which has never been based upon aliens after two entire seasons: why presenting aliens now? The other aspects of 00 didn't bug me at all: the war to end all wars, the innovators as the latest Newtypes,... all this already was present in various titles of the Gundam multiverse under one way or another – but not aliens. As for CCA: Tomino's objective, I think, was to put an end to the rivalry between Amuro and Char, which didn't require an entire TV series, therefore he wrote a simple movie. But in 00 these aliens don't end anything; in the contrary, they open this whole universe towards an entirely new direction – but one movie is not enough to explore this direction to its right value, because it's too short: that's my main problem with this movie... Edited February 19, 2011 by Gui
Snail00 Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 In all honnesty, I didn't want any movie to begin with: the second season's end was fine as is. And I don't try to convince anyone of anything: I'm just stating my opinion, which is obviously discussable like all opinions. What I meant about continuity break is: there has never been aliens in Gundam so far, therefore introducing aliens is some sort of continuity break – and it would have been more welcome in another Gundam universe instead of the 00 which has never been based upon aliens after two entire seasons: why presenting aliens now? The other aspects of 00 didn't bug me at all: the war to end all wars, the innovators as the latest Newtypes,... all this already was present in various titles of the Gundam multiverse under one way or another – but not aliens. As for CCA: Tomino's objective, I think, was to put an end to the rivalry between Amuro and Char, which didn't require an entire TV series, therefore he wrote a simple movie. But in 00 these aliens don't end anything; in the contrary, they open this whole universe towards an entirely new direction – but one movie is not enough to explore this direction to its right value, because it's too short: that's my main problem with this movie... i agree thats why i felt disconnected from the original series and hated the movie
reeoyuy Posted February 19, 2011 Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) I can't defend this movie further without sounding like a fanboy. I like the movie, but it's not the best ever and could be better. Still it's not bad enough to entirely hate or despise the movie. I know that fans' opinion will split in two about introducing aliens into gundam. As for myself, I really don't mind. There's a lot of reasons I can think of but I can't express it effectively (also due to my bad english hence my posts didn't get my points across effectively) So pardon me to quote people from other forum, they summed it much better than I am I think for me, it depends on "how" and "what type" of aliens is it. Gundam 00 handled the issue well I think, I'm fine with the ELS and the communication theme fits as well with what was presented at the end of S2. When it comes to aliens in Gundam, it's a super subjective matter for me, based on how the aliens are presented/what they are.I can see some future AUs using it to some extent though I don't think it will fit in UC. I'm so glad 00 pulled it nicely, at least as far as my own satisfaction criterias are concerned anyways. I do believe that Gundam should be primarily a "human series" and this has always been the case, even with Gundam 00 but this doesnt necessrily mean aliens cant appear in it at all. In the case of 00, it remains very much human focused despite having aliens at the end. Even then, it depends on what the aliens are specifically, and for me the "alieness" of the ELS really did the job well here, if it was just another humanoid civilisation I may be less pleases but as I said it's a subjective matter, kinda of a I have to see it to judge it thing which was the stance I took for the aliens in the movie. I think that some people can't divorce themselves from the UC style on Gundam and when they come into say 00, they didn't get it and start complaining.They probably forgot that this is an AU series and not UC. Yeah I agree the whole alien thing doesn't work with a UC Gundam but I think AU series lifts many of those restrictions. And 00 presented the alien affair pretty well and stuck with it's understanding theme. True that. Personally, I like the idea of 00 introducing aliens. There's always been this certain barrier that kept the franchise from evolving. 00 did a great job with tearing down that wall. Naturally, those that fear the process or what is beyond that wall start to rebel and protest. Hope the 'path toward the future' Setsuna cleaved will turn out to be the right choice, though that's for the authors to decide. I feel the exact same way, and it's so awesome to see someone else who isn't one of those hardcoresuperseriousbusiness mecha anime fans who have to hate anything that's not 0079 or Zeta. To use the age-old "Gundam is Japan's Star Trek" metaphor - Seed was Voyager, half-baked but somewhat enjoyable. Seed Destiny was Enterprise, brain numbing. 00 is Star Trek 2009, not perfect but frickin' awesome and a kick in the ass that the franchise sorely needed. Mind you, I know nothing about Star Trek but I do agree with that last statement . I really don't know anything about Star Trek so I can't comment on that. EDIT: ok, after I took a rest for awhile I think about this over and finally collect my thoughts. First of all, if you really think that aliens don't belong in gundam, look all those I quoted above. Secondly, you can't just judge "gundam is all about this and that and never that". Gundam is a franchise that still evolving and I'm sure in the future we will get something far more unexpected than just aliens. You just have to break that barrier of tradition. You can argue that "00 which has never been based upon aliens after two entire seasons", but you can't just conclude OO for only those two season of TV series. Why? Simply because the movie is already planned when season 2 is under production. Thus, the ending of 2nd season is made with upcoming movie in mind. To put it simply, the movie is a part of the whole OO story. It's never a shameless plug-in to ride OO popularity. Refusing to accept the movie and content with just 2nd season is the same as you watched a whole series but not the final episode. You have to put the movie in consideration when you summed up OO as "about this and that". Lastly, this talk about aliens make us forgot the whole theme of OO (not just the movie).Hopefully you still remember, it's about UNDERSTANDING. I admit it's preachy, but OO sticks to it to the very end. ELS is just a medium to tell us that even we can make peace with something like that through understanding. In the end, OO is about human and always centered on human. Edited February 20, 2011 by reeoyuy
Gui Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Dude, "understanding" is the main point of the whole franchise, since the very first series with its newtypes: I don't have any problem with this at all, I also don't see any issue with having aliens in Gundam as long as it is not a rushed job like in this movie, and finally I'm not part of these haters who despise anything which is not UC – I just think these aliens have nothing to do with 00, at least in the way they are presented, and I don't really care about when the Sunrise staff began working on this movie: the final result displeases me because of an underuse of a totally new concept in the Gundam franchise, that's all... I'm very happy you liked this movie, but I simply didn't like this aspect of this production: so what? Is it really that of a big deal? Now, if Sunrise plans to develop this idea with a continuation of the 00 universe under one form or another, it's different. But as it is now, sorry, I don't like it, for all the reasons I already have given...
reeoyuy Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Fine, so we agreed that aliens in gundam is not a bad thing. Also, yes, I agree that the story telling could be better. I don't mind people noticed a flaw in something I like and making said flaw as a huge negative aspect. I do that sometimes, for example I nitpicking CCA simply because Quess and Hathaway is annoying. However, I still believe that this movie and aliens inside are necessary to end the whole OO saga. It fits the whole theme of understanding AND fulfilling Aeolia's prophecy at the same time. By having "dialogues to come", the last chapter of Aeolia's plan, as the end of the story is a brilliant move. If you look it that way, the whole flashback scene of young Aeolia talking to Ribbons look-alike have much bigger impact. So you said that this movie is unnecessary and prefer to have different outcome. Do you have any idea how to continue the story of season 2 then? Without losing the whole understanding theme and keeping Aeolia's plan relevant including "dialogues to come" part? Just a reminder, in season 1 CB followed that plan faithfully like a religion. And later Ribbons plotting everything just to take over the plan for himself. Making a new story without having reference to oh-so-important plan, now that's what I'll call continuity break.
Gui Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Man, I'm just a spectator, which means I'm not supposed to do the job of the scriptwriters instead of them: I'm just giving a simple but honest opinion – and not trying to do better than the guys who are paid for doing this job. Anyway, like I already said several times, I think the ending of season 2 was fine like it was and didn't require a movie to end anything: this latest season didn't end with any "to be continued..." or whatever else which said clearly that some plot points needed to be resolved. I just don't get why the guys at Sunrise felt the urge to end anything, especially in opening their tale into an entirely new direction. The "dialogues to come" you may reply? Fine, but with whom? Other terrestrial beings who will have some really hard times to understand each others like it's the case since dozens of thousands of years already, or with extraterrestrial aliens who devored worlds during centuries or millenias and will probably encounter some difficulties into changing their habits? My understanding of the conclusion of season 2 is that wars are ended because all nations are under only one banner now, and that each of these nations will have to learn to live with all the others – which, obviously, is not an easy task due to all the "dialogues to come" that such endeavour would demand... No aliens were required for this, that's all.
reeoyuy Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I just don't get why the guys at Sunrise felt the urge to end anything, especially in opening their tale into an entirely new direction. Aha, that's the problem. You think that by introducing aliens Sunrise opening new tales, but how? The epilogue shows us everything. Human and ELS coexist then they started to explore the space. That's sounds like a premise of an entirely new story, you think? I don't think so. Anything that happened after Aeolia plan fulfilled is not a part of OO saga anymore. It's an open ending that serves to show us everything ends well. But the main story ended as it is. Side materials hinted that Celestial Being is disbanded sometime before 2364 epilogue, so it's really the end. As for the aliens, they never meant to became a character much less a whole new plot point. It's the reason why Sunrise use "totally alien" concept instead of another civilization like Zentradi. They're just...there to prove the point (of how understanding can achieve something that force can't do). The "dialogues to come" you may reply? Fine, but with whom? Other terrestrial beings who will have some really hard times to understand each others like it's the case since dozens of thousands of years already, or with extraterrestrial aliens who devored worlds during centuries or millenias and will probably encounter some difficulties into changing their habits? My understanding of the conclusion of season 2 is that wars are ended because all nations are under only one banner now, and that each of these nations will have to learn to live with all the others – which, obviously, is not an easy task due to all the "dialogues to come" that such endeavour would demand... No aliens were required for this, that's all. I just rewatched episode 24 of season 2, when Tieria unveiled Aeolia's plan he obtained from deep within Veda, here's what it says: -Our armed interventions were to push the world to unite despite our hypocrisy (obviously, referring to season 1) -Even if we were to be destroyed ourselsves, we would unite humanity's will(what they achieved at the end of season 2, that you considered 'as fine as it is' ending) -It was to prevent humanity from taking war into outer space;(ELS found us first somehow, but also implied to space exploration that took off after the movie timeline) -to prepare for the dialogue with another will that we would eventually encounter.("we" here means humanity as a whole, so "another will" is....) That "eventually" is just mere two years later. Way too convenient timing but eh, it's clearly not out of place. So that "dialogue" is always referring to contact with another will. The dialogue between ourselves like you proposed is actually a step before the real dialogue that Aeolia planned. You brought a good point about how ELS is entirely different from us but that's why they were used instead another human as the villain. We're entirely different, we live in different way, we can't use our methods of communication to contact them thus making them the ultimate test for the whole understanding theme. But we succeeded, we make peace and coexist with entirely different will thanks to understanding. Nothing can gives us much better impact, better example on the power of understanding than that.
Gui Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Frankly, I don't really care about this last sentence into ep 24: it's not an introduction, it isn't even cryptic, it's far too much awkward and fast and discrete to be really noticed, or to be considered as important – it is just one, isolated, simple sentence in a whole 25 eps TV series: if it was really an important point, they would have insisted on it during a while and several times all along the story; it's a basic storytelling technic: if it is important, make the audience notice. The events of the movie happen only two years after the end of the second season: do you seriously think it's enough to allow all humans to forget all their hatred and jealousy and sorrow and whatever else is at the roots of all wars just because there's only one nation now? C'mon: the end of season 2 is just the beginning of the work for the Celestial Beings – here is the opening toward a new direction: again, no aliens required... The more we discuss about this, and the more I think the staff of this movie developped this aliens concept to please the fans who demand extraterrestrials since quite some years now, or because they run out of ideas, or both, and certainly not because they planned it since the beginning: nothing wrong here of course, but don't ask me to buy this whole wannabe metaphysical stuff.
reeoyuy Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 if it is important, make the audience notice. Yeah, as if Innovator (as in true innovator, not Ribbons version) thingy ever mentioned or even hinted in season 1. And that's very important. The events of the movie happen only two years after the end of the second season: do you seriously think it's enough to allow all humans to forget all their hatred and jealousy and sorrow and whatever else is at the roots of all wars just because there's only one nation now? C'mon: the end of season 2 is just the beginning of the work for the Celestial Beings – here is the opening toward a new direction: again, no aliens required... You know, you only strengthen my reasoning. Yes, you're right that even after eliminating the distortion of the plan (that is Ribbons) it's far from utopia that Aeolia visioned. The new governement has more pacifist stand than before, but as we saw early in the movie where Setsuna saved Marina's envoy, humans haven't changed that much. At this point, Setsuna must fought endless conflict and work hard to promote his 'understanding each other' ideal. Yes, that's an opening toward a new direction; but a messy direction that is. At this point, the story will keep repeating itself again and again until it getting pointless like Cosmic Era. And that's exactly why aliens required. Look no further than Macross. The whole unification of the world that CB did during season 1 & 2 is similar to unification war between UN and Anti-UN in Macross. Even if one faction emerges as a victor, the remnant of opposing force still intent to fight. Only when aliens arrived suddenly the war stop as humans concentrating their efforts to fight the invaders. Even after humans won, they chose to do something better (for the whole humanity) than just fighting between each other again. The event portrayed in the movie epilogue has the same message as Flashback 2012: that humans, now coexist with alien beings, decided to leave the war behind and now move on to explore the space. And that, all thanks to the aliens that accelerated our evolution and forced us the leave our ugly history of war. Way too convenient but at least it wraps up the story in a conclusive way. The more we discuss about this, and the more I think the staff of this movie developped this aliens concept to please the fans who demand extraterrestrials since quite some years now, or because they run out of ideas, or both, and certainly not because they planned it since the beginning: nothing wrong here of course, but don't ask me to buy this whole wannabe metaphysical stuff. Eh, I doubt that it's due to fans demand to have aliens appeared in the movie. If you look back at season 2, you'll notice that it has a lot more traditional Gundam feel to it than season 1. Majority of Japanese fans (that Sunrise cared most than the rest of the world) dislike different aura of season 1 thus demanding the series to be "more Gundam". You see, they are less open to change than us. What Mizushima did is a gamble, trying to do something that Japanese traditional fandom will have a hard time to accept. If they want to play safe, they can just follow what fans want. And obviously, not something radical as aliens. And just like I said earlier in this thread, Bandai covered up the whole ELS existence up to only few weeks before premiere. If they really followed fans demand like you said, they should have hyped up 'aliens in gundam' factor since the beginning. But no, they're being cautious. They only hyped up things that they sure can sell: the Gundams.
Gui Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Yeah, as if Innovator (as in true innovator, not Ribbons version) thingy ever mentioned or even hinted in season 1. And that's very important. And they developped it during an entire season, not only one movie... You know, you only strengthen my reasoning. Yes, you're right that even after eliminating the distortion of the plan (that is Ribbons) it's far from utopia that Aeolia visioned. The new governement has more pacifist stand than before, but as we saw early in the movie where Setsuna saved Marina's envoy, humans haven't changed that much. At this point, Setsuna must fought endless conflict and work hard to promote his 'understanding each other' ideal. Yes, that's an opening toward a new direction; but a messy direction that is. At this point, the story will keep repeating itself again and again until it getting pointless like Cosmic Era. [...] At least it sounds realistic, like the original Gundam credo was realistic in depicting the end of the One Year War as the beginning of the Grypps War, and peace as a simple period of transition between two wars – like it is the case since the beginning of real History. [...] And that's exactly why aliens required. Look no further than Macross. The whole unification of the world that CB did during season 1 & 2 is similar to unification war between UN and Anti-UN in Macross. Even if one faction emerges as a victor, the remnant of opposing force still intent to fight. Only when aliens arrived suddenly the war stop as humans concentrating their efforts to fight the invaders. Even after humans won, they chose to do something better (for the whole humanity) than just fighting between each other again. The event portrayed in the movie epilogue has the same message as Flashback 2012: that humans, now coexist with alien beings, decided to leave the war behind and now move on to explore the space. And that, all thanks to the aliens that accelerated our evolution and forced us the leave our ugly history of war. Way too convenient but at least it wraps up the story in a conclusive way. A way that you find conclusive, because personnally I find it very naive and also irresponsible: irresponsible because this means we can't understand each others without a superior threat above us (i.e. we are unable to solve our own problem ourselves), and naive because Macross was supposed to be a parody of the mecha genre at the beginning; then it evolved through years and additional shows made at sponsors requests toward some sort of metaphore which finds its climax in Macross 7 – but aliens were not more required in this TV series than in any others, Macross or Gundam: they're just an image for the stranger as a potential enemy, all the more as zentrans are simply some sort of cousins to humans... Eh, I doubt that it's due to fans demand to have aliens appeared in the movie. If you look back at season 2, you'll notice that it has a lot more traditional Gundam feel to it than season 1. Majority of Japanese fans (that Sunrise cared most than the rest of the world) dislike different aura of season 1 thus demanding the series to be "more Gundam". You see, they are less open to change than us. What Mizushima did is a gamble, trying to do something that Japanese traditional fandom will have a hard time to accept. If they want to play safe, they can just follow what fans want. And obviously, not something radical as aliens. And just like I said earlier in this thread, Bandai covered up the whole ELS existence up to only few weeks before premiere. If they really followed fans demand like you said, they should have hyped up 'aliens in gundam' factor since the beginning. But no, they're being cautious. They only hyped up things that they sure can sell: the Gundams. Fine, I admit being wrong on this point, but only this one: this movie still looks like a complete intellectual and narrative mess and not only it wasn't necessary but it also considerably bastardized one of the most interesting Gundam series to date – my congratulations to the director... ... And I'll leave it here now because we obviously are in complete disagreement and this conversation will not bring any of us anywhere: frankly, I have more important things to do – and I'm sure that you too...
reeoyuy Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 And they developped it during an entire season, not only one movie... I brought that point because you denied the fact (that 'dialogue with another will') that came straight from the series own narrative. Yet you dismissed it just because it mentioned late in the series. It's not about how that cryptic hint well developed later or not, I just want to show you that even an important plot point can come out of nowhere, even without any hint like Innovators. So there's no reason to claim that aliens appearance is forced since a little or no hints existed. Seriously dude, you're in denial. At least it sounds realistic, like the original Gundam credo was realistic in depicting the end of the One Year War as the beginning of the Grypps War, and peace as a simple period of transition between two wars – like it is the case since the beginning of real History. Realistic, yes. But can you make it interesting and not getting stale after pointless conflicts? Go ahead, but I prefer a story with conclusive ending. Plus, as forced as it could be, OO ending is the most original among other universe. So now you use "OO should follow UC example" argument again, eh? A way that you find conclusive, because personnally I find it very naive and also irresponsible: irresponsible because this means we can't understand each others without a superior threat above us (i.e. we are unable to solve our own problem ourselves), and naive because Macross was supposed to be a parody of the mecha genre at the beginning; then it evolved through years and additional shows made at sponsors requests toward some sort of metaphore which finds its climax in Macross 7 – but aliens were not more required in this TV series than in any others, Macross or Gundam: they're just an image for the stranger as a potential enemy, all the more as zentrans are simply some sort of cousins to humans... Huh? No, that's not what I meant. We can understand each other fine without any help. It took time, but ELS arrival accelerate that process by forcing us to stop fighting between ourselves. I never said that ELS is our savior or something. After the war with ELS, humans aren't magically understand each other or solved every problem. It's just that ELS arrival only motivated humans to learn to understand each other. It's a necessary threat as wake-up call, with enough impact that no humans with god-complex like Corner or Ribbons can do. Now look dude, I don't care what Macross originated with or how it evolved into Macross 7 craziness. I just want to point out that even before all humans understand each other, they throw differences aside and working together after their experience of contact with another will. The spirit is same with Flashback 2012 but that's when similarity ends. While Megaroad launch is a door to a whole new story, the launch of Sumeragi marks the end of story. It all thanks how ELS portrayed as a symbol of successful attempt at understanding each other. NOT just a simplistic bad guy like Zentradi. Fine, I admit being wrong on this point, but only this one: this movie still looks like a complete intellectual and narrative mess and not only it wasn't necessary but it also considerably bastardized one of the most interesting Gundam series to date – my congratulations to the director... Oh, it's not his first time. He's not afraid to experiment with an existing storyline. FYI, he's the one who directed Full Metal Alchemist: Conqueror of Shambala movie that took very drastic move from the manga. Fans' complaint isn't something new to him. At least he has more guts than SEED director who just succumb to fans' demand. ... And I'll leave it here now because we obviously are in complete disagreement and this conversation will not bring any of us anywhere: frankly, I have more important things to do – and I'm sure that you too... And I just realized that we failed to understand each other. Contact me again via Quantum Brainwaves when you and I become Innovated someday. Maybe we can solve this then Okay then, so here's my final opinion: I didn't defend this movie as a whole, I do agree that it has some flaws on story telling and another things. This movie ended without any loose end as Celestial Being realized their mission and fulfilling Aeolia's plan perfectly up to the last part that is 'dialogue to come with another will'. Mission accomplished, what's better than that? I disagree with how you view aliens arrival as unnecessary and I don't like your idea on having OO universe plunged into endless conflicts, straying off from Aeolia's plan that shape the world of OO. I don't want OO ended up like Cosmic Era, or another UC. That's all.
protostar8 Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 I know the thread is old, but I just watched the movie and suggest that anyone who liked Gundam 00 stop after Season 2 and pretend the movie never existed. The guy that did the movie should never be allowed to work with a popular series ever again. I understand the ending (well, as much as one could b/c it was a mess), but it was aweful and completely unrelated to Gundam 00 IMO. The entire aliens thing was pure trash and the movie was complete waste. Failblazer FTL...
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