Most 'USEFUL' mode 'OVERALL' of all the Variable Fight

[ruskiiVFaussie]

haha yeah, Roy was doing some amazing stuff on the Asuka.

That pilot of the Destroid Chennye(sp?) was pushing it to the limits as well.

[dreamweaver13]

Gerwalk.

At the very least, it was hands down the best mode to use in the Macross NES game.

[VFTF1]

Here's my take on what has been said (and we have to try and look at what is going on, rather than at how it is animated):

1. Zero:

Two battroid (Shin/Roy) fighting eachother does not prove that the Battroid itself is very durable; only that two variable robots who can just barely achieve agility in battroid mode are evenly matched and capable of tossing eachother around. Besides - remember that the scene where Roy tossed Shin to the ground is pretty straight forward and Shin's loss is as much a factor of his inabilities as a battroid pilot as it is of the VF-OS's "awesome hand to hand power."

The point here is this: VF-OS battroid was fighting another battroid - ergo it didn't have that much of a challenge: if it were fighting a flesh and blood Zendradi then it would have a big challenge. Gubaba is right that a flesh and blood organism will ALWAYS have the advantage over a guy pressing a bunch of pedals and flipping switches madly. At least until we get to Macross Frontier...

2. Macross Frontier:

In Macross Frontier we suddenly see battroids going up against organisms and apparently doing a very good job at hand to hand despite the pedals and switches part.

But then - consider what the Vajra is: it's not really built for hand to hand combat. In fact - look at its' hands - they are like T-Rex hands. They're just there. The whole thing is actually built, much like the Quid Rau - for long range melees.

Clearly if you matches a full sized Zendradi (say Breetai) against a Vajra - I am fairly certain that the Zendradi would win - at least in terms of pure wrestling. Cracking the Vajra's armor would, of course, be impossible without the proper weapons (which weapons would have to be upgraded every five minutes to compensate for the Vajra's evolving armor).

But the point is - the human form is very adept at hand to hand combat, and that is actually part of the reason why the Battroid is humanoid in terms of anatomy. I mean - if they were looking for a good hand to hand combat model - what were they going to do? Make the battroid looke like a koala bear?

The only other forms good for hand to hand are technically things like tigers, lions, cougars - fast predators - but it would be extremely difficult to make a battroid with such a form - and what are you going to do for teeth?

I think the basic idea was to have a perfectly adaptable mass production military unit that could go anywhere and do anything - fly, fire a machine gun, engage in trench warfare, air warfare, submarine and space warfare.

Obviously the Valkyrie does all this, and it doesn't do any one of them perfectly, but as a group - Valkyries are effective.

Pete

[VF5SS]

Good point.

(Of course, we all know the REAL reason is that animation technology improved between 1982 and 2002, but that's no fun. )

To be fair, Hikaru was performing diving kicks on Zentradi towards the end of Macross.

[ChronoReverse]

Two battroid (Shin/Roy) fighting eachother does not prove that the Battroid itself is very durable; only that two variable robots who can just barely achieve agility in battroid mode are evenly matched and capable of tossing eachother around. Besides - remember that the scene where Roy tossed Shin to the ground is pretty straight forward and Shin's loss is as much a factor of his inabilities as a battroid pilot as it is of the VF-OS's "awesome hand to hand power."

Um. Roy first grabs Shin's GERWALK arm and kicks his feet flipping Shin. Shin was flying full tilt in GERWALK mode, the impact was no small thing.

Later Roy comes from above, knocks Shin down while wrestling the gun away.

Earlier, Nora kicks the arm (and gunpod) right off the VF-0 Shin jumps into using a side kick.

During combat with DD, Roy lands in Battroid, kneels, picks up a rock (actually boulder on that scale), tosses it around the corner, and leaps out behind it showing great agility.

A freaking destroid leans over the edge of an aircraft carrier to fire the gun over the edge showing the flexibility of even destroids. The same destroid then rolls back into standing position.

Nora then delivers a kick that knocks the heavy destroid right over the edge showing her leg has no trouble taking such impacts (even in GERWALK mode).

In the fight that ensues afterward between DD and Roy, we get to see things like Roy doing a reverse flip kick and DD doing a flying kick.

Of course, in the finale we have Shin finally getting the drop on Nora with a stomp kick.

A lot of these moves aren't even possible with an unassisted body because they use the thrusters to enable further air agility. Even the normal moves they pull require training for humans to pull off. You can't say that they were just battroid to battroid and thus the agility is embellished because that's what they did. A flip-kick is a flip-kick. If it were slow then it wouldn't be a threat and would be less than useless.

The point here is this: VF-OS battroid was fighting another battroid - ergo it didn't have that much of a challenge: if it were fighting a flesh and blood Zendradi then it would have a big challenge. Gubaba is right that a flesh and blood organism will ALWAYS have the advantage over a guy pressing a bunch of pedals and flipping switches madly. At least until we get to Macross Frontier...

You can't simply make the assertion that a valkyrie, being a machine, is definitely behind flesh-and-blood. There is no proof of that.

In fact we have proof that they're at the very least well-matched in the form of Macross Plus. Guld had the advantage of BCS and BDI meaning he COULD control his valkyrie like his own body. Yet Isamu, with standard controls not only matched him in hand-to-hand combat, he had the edge both times during the close ranged stints.

Clearly if you matches a full sized Zendradi (say Breetai) against a Vajra - I am fairly certain that the Zendradi would win - at least in terms of pure wrestling.

Britai isn't a "full-sized Zentraedi". Britai is an enhanced Zentraedi that was far stronger than normal ones. He's the EXCEPTION not the norm. The fact that Hikaru wasn't completely destroyed is already surprising.

Edited December 11, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[VFTF1]

All good points - although with the Macross zero fights - it is still battroids vs. battroids rather than battroids vs. flesh-and-blood opponents who aren't controling an external body via levers or even something like BCS and BDI...

I hate to use the "more advanced animation techniques" argument - but obviously the fights in Zero are going to be more impressive than the fights in SDFM TV - this not withstanding; there were no organic opponents to engage the Battroid mechas in Zero, while during Space War I there were plenty.

Remember too that Kamjin manags to - if I'm not getting something wrong in my memory - rip apart a Destroid's armor with his armored hands (armored not in some Zendradi Meh, but just in the Zendradi battle body armor).

As for the kicking and punching - I suppose I would call upon the ever knowledgable Mr. Mach here:

What exactly is the armor on Valkyrie made of? Is it possible for a Valkyrie to get into a fist fight and then revert to fighter mode and fly away?

Insofar as the Gerwalk and Battroids can fly independent of aerodynamics on the basis of verticle thrust, the fighters - I presume - annot do this. So if a hand to hand combat round sufficiently damages the components of a Valk that are used in fighter mode...will the fighter then not have flight capabilities?

Or should I stop thinking of the modes being so independent of one another?

Help.

Pete

[ChronoReverse]

If anything is clear about the valkyries in Macross, it's that they're extremely durable and can somehow still transform with damage. Strength-wise they don't seem to have an edge over Zentraedi although the valkyries are also capable of tearing pieces off each other.

There's really no explaining it with our modern understanding (where even the slightest misalignment would make such a transformation fail catastrophically) except that Overtechnology somehow allows this. Except where specifically discussing that, there's no point in arguing about that and so it should be taken face value.

I feel that with the evidence of the majority of the Macross series, the valkyries have the necessary agility, toughness and the well-defined controls to engage in effective hand to hand combat. However, the limitation is the pilot.

In SDFM, most of the pilots were newbies and hence were ineffective. It also doesn't help that most of them don't seem to use the three modes well. Even Shin in Zero had trouble getting the concept that he had to not just think as a fighter jock anymore. The scene with the hand to hand fighting instructor in Zero just emphasizes that the battroids were built for and expected to engage in the sort of close combat a human body would.

Edited December 11, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[edwin3060]

If anything is clear about the valkyries in Macross, it's that they're extremely durable and can somehow still transform with damage. Strength-wise they don't seem to have an edge over Zentraedi although the valkyries are also capable of tearing pieces off each other.

There's really no explaining it with our modern understanding (where even the slightest misalignment would make such a transformation fail catastrophically) except that Overtechnology somehow allows this. Except where specifically discussing that, there's no point in arguing about that and so it should be taken face value.

I feel that with the evidence of the majority of the Macross series, the valkyries have the necessary agility, toughness and the well-defined controls to engage in effective hand to hand combat. However, the limitation is the pilot.

In SDFM, most of the pilots were newbies and hence were ineffective. It also doesn't help that most of them don't seem to use the three modes well. Even Shin in Zero had trouble getting the concept that he had to not just think as a fighter jock anymore. The scene with the hand to hand fighting instructor in Zero just emphasizes that the battroids were built for and expected to engage in the sort of close combat a human body would.

All good points! Some ideals to throw into the fray-- certain parts of the valkyrie, once they get too damaged, are jettisoned just before transformation. I postulate that any serious misalignment due to damaged parts would result in the damaged parts being ejected so as not to interfere with transformation. Certainly some parts are critical to all modes and cannot be abandoned, but other parts, like the arms of most Valkyries, can be removed without seriously interfering with fighter mode.

Seeing as to how it is implied in Zero that most of the skilled pilots were already dead in the fighting, and most of the ranks are made out of newly trained pilots, the same shortage of manpower probably affected the events of SDFM as well, so that could be an explanation for their poor showing.

[VFTF1]

Seeing as to how it is implied in Zero that most of the skilled pilots were already dead in the fighting, and most of the ranks are made out of newly trained pilots, the same shortage of manpower probably affected the events of SDFM as well, so that could be an explanation for their poor showing.

(speaks in squeeky nerdish voice) :

After the Macross successfully returns to Earth and rests in the Pacific Ocean, Max is made Squad leader and remarks to Hikaru that he might not be ready for command, to which Hikaru responds that the UN has sent new pilots who are "even less experienced then we are."

This implies that a large number of pilots were killed during the battles that the Macross fought on its' way back from Pluto which would make sense sine huge numbers of Valkyries and destroids were destroyed throughout the previous episodes in various battles.

(adjusts large nerdy glasses)

Pete

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Great points mate!!!

Um. Roy first grabs Shin's GERWALK arm and kicks his feet flipping Shin. Shin was flying full tilt in GERWALK mode, the impact was no small thing.

Later Roy comes from above, knocks Shin down while wrestling the gun away.

Earlier, Nora kicks the arm (and gunpod) right off the VF-0 Shin jumps into using a side kick.

During combat with DD, Roy lands in Battroid, kneels, picks up a rock (actually boulder on that scale), tosses it around the corner, and leaps out behind it showing great agility.

A freaking destroid leans over the edge of an aircraft carrier to fire the gun over the edge showing the flexibility of even destroids. The same destroid then rolls back into standing position.

Nora then delivers a kick that knocks the heavy destroid right over the edge showing her leg has no trouble taking such impacts (even in GERWALK mode).

In the fight that ensues afterward between DD and Roy, we get to see things like Roy doing a reverse flip kick and DD doing a flying kick.

Of course, in the finale we have Shin finally getting the drop on Nora with a stomp kick.

A lot of these moves aren't even possible with an unassisted body because they use the thrusters to enable further air agility. Even the normal moves they pull require training for humans to pull off. You can't say that they were just battroid to battroid and thus the agility is embellished because that's what they did. A flip-kick is a flip-kick. If it were slow then it wouldn't be a threat and would be less than useless.

You can't simply make the assertion that a valkyrie, being a machine, is definitely behind flesh-and-blood. There is no proof of that.

In fact we have proof that they're at the very least well-matched in the form of Macross Plus. Guld had the advantage of BCS and BDI meaning he COULD control his valkyrie like his own body. Yet Isamu, with standard controls not only matched him in hand-to-hand combat, he had the edge both times during the close ranged stints.

Britai isn't a "full-sized Zentraedi". Britai is an enhanced Zentraedi that was far stronger than normal ones. He's the EXCEPTION not the norm. The fact that Hikaru wasn't completely destroyed is already surprising.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

All good points! Some ideals to throw into the fray-- certain parts of the valkyrie, once they get too damaged, are jettisoned just before transformation. I postulate that any serious misalignment due to damaged parts would result in the damaged parts being ejected so as not to interfere with transformation. Certainly some parts are critical to all modes and cannot be abandoned, but other parts, like the arms of most Valkyries, can be removed without seriously interfering with fighter mode.

Seeing as to how it is implied in Zero that most of the skilled pilots were already dead in the fighting, and most of the ranks are made out of newly trained pilots, the same shortage of manpower probably affected the events of SDFM as well, so that could be an explanation for their poor showing.

Exactly, just like Hikaru did when the VF-1S took heavy damage and had to jettison both the Super/FP armour AND Arms.

Then we are back to Gerwalk and Fighter being the 2 main modes. Leaving battroid 3rd. I know if i'm damaged i'm not going to hobble home

in an armless Battroid , i'll be Gerwalking it or fightering it back to safety (that's if i had a choice mind u)

Edited December 11, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[dreamweaver13]

(speaks in squeeky nerdish voice) :

After the Macross successfully returns to Earth and rests in the Pacific Ocean, Max is made Squad leader and remarks to Hikaru that he might not be ready for command, to which Hikaru responds that the UN has sent new pilots who are "even less experienced then we are."

This implies that a large number of pilots were killed during the battles that the Macross fought on its' way back from Pluto which would make sense sine huge numbers of Valkyries and destroids were destroyed throughout the previous episodes in various battles.

(adjusts large nerdy glasses)

Pete

yeah. and it's ironic that some of the pilots UN sent to Macross could be veteran or high ranked pilots. But in terms of fighting zentraedi mechs, both on earth and in space, they don't have that much experience. in that sense, "newbie" pilots Hikaru and Max would still be considered the more experienced fighters. veteran earth pilots are the new cannon fodder. hehe.

oh, and...

(puts on jock jacket, and kicks pete on the backside)

"NERD!!!!"

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, from an engineering standpoint, the Variable Fighter series was designed originally to give an overall combat advantage against a species of humanoid standing near 45 feet tall on average. Thus, a new fighter plane was designed to A) replace the aging fleet of planes currently in service with ones that utilize the new Overtechnology, B) Allow for low-speed, low-altitude hit-and-run strikes, and C) allow for humanoid-to-humanoid ground, air, and space combat.

The Bipedal design of Battroid mode allows for it to maneuver a ground-based area. Cities and such. It also allows for the ability to fight a war as if it were man-on-man.

The bird-like design of GERWALK allows it to vector its thrust down for VTOL, low-speed lift assist, and the ability to use some of the qualities of Battroid in a more aerodynamic design.

The conventional design of Fighter mode means it can perform in the same ways as today's fighters and there won't have to be supplemental training for air combat.

Finally, since all 3 modes are flight-capable, Fighter is often the least-used, due to its inadequacy against the Zentraedi's Humanoid mecha. GERWALK is used for low-speed strikes, and moreover, for quickly decelerating. Battroid is used most to fight the Zentraedi, since by design, it is the most effective against that type of enemy. Battroid can perform the same roles as the above two, though not as effectively. However, neither of them can be a Battroid.

[Lethalzero]

gerwalk?

why?

because of all those mecha anime out there...

only macross has gerwalk (homotech not included) xD

[ruskiiVFaussie]

No no, they got Guardian. Or did they change that?

[RD Blade]

What's Gerwalk called in Mospeada?

Edited December 12, 2008 by RD Blade

[splatcat]

Armo-diver as I recall but it has been quite a while.

I have to go with fighter mode simply because I think most valkyries would spend at least 90% of thier time that way while in use. I have always seen the valks as a craft that was designed for ground support. Battroid and Gerwalk mode would only be used when it was time to get up close and personal with an enemy. Much better top lob missiles and bullet from a couple of miles out.

As for hand to hand, I always thought Bretai was supposed to be one of the strongest zentraedi ever. The fight was stacked in his favor.

On the use of battroids in Macross Zero and Frontier, those shows showed us a whole lot of versatile uses for a tranforming fighter. No reason at all to favor one mode. So for my final answer I say what is the mission? That would go a long way toward settling this question if it can be done.

[edwin3060]

Well, while in reality most of the fights would be at stand-off distances using longer ranged missiles, Macross has focused on the close in fights with micro-missiles and hand-to-hand action because it is (obviously) more exciting. Still, most space CAPs and other patrols would most probably be done in fighter mode, so yes, fighter mode is probably the most common mode, but in combat, battroid and GERWALK modes would probably be used equally, if not more, than fighter-- most combat seems to be a first pass in fighter modes at high speeds before breaking down into individual melees in battroid mode.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Why does everyone rip on Robotech? It had its own story, separate of Macross's, and the only links it has, in homage, to Macross is the name of the city on the island, and the aliens.

Moving on.

Fighter is most useful... For getting into the fight. After that, Gerwalk is used to brake, and Battroid to fight.

[edwin3060]

Why does everyone rip on Robotech? It had its own story, separate of Macross's, and the only links it has, in homage, to Macross is the name of the city on the island, and the aliens.

Moving on.

Fighter is most useful... For getting into the fight. After that, Gerwalk is used to brake, and Battroid to fight.

Erm... and all the animation as well (at least the first story arc). I think some of the antipathy stems from how Harmony Gold acted and is acting in addition to any perceived weaknesses in the storyline.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The way I see it: One of Harmony Gold's higher-ups (Can't remember his name for the life of me) liked the anime "Space Battleship Yamato". He decides he wants to do his own space opera anime. So, he goes to Kawamori-sensei and Taka... Taka... Whatever it was Productions and asks to make Robotech, his planned amalgam of 3 Nue series. So, he goes, finishes writing his story, begins editing and dubbing the footage with the Robotech storyline's acting, and begins the publishing process. My only qualms with HG is their monopoly over American trade of Macross goods. Thanks to them, I (and everyone else in North America) can only buy Macross merchandise illegally. That, and "My Time to be a Star". The latter is self-explanatory.

And as I keep telling my father, "No, dad, the stories are COMPLETELY different. Robotech was never and will never be Macross." Also, "No, it's the same animation. The only difference is that a few things were cut out to make it 'family friendly'. Other than that, watching Robotech without the sound is the same as watching Macross!"

That's the last I will say on the matter, as it is OT.

And if you think Fighter is most useful, how many cannon fodders blow up in Battroid? How many fights does Hikaru (Or Max, or Miria, or Roy) win in Fighter? Battroid? There you go.

[taksraven]

What's Gerwalk called in Mospeada?

I find it interesting that both Mospeada and Southern Cross had GERWALK-like modes for their main craft. Are there any other anime that had this mode as well?

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

I find it interesting that both Mospeada and Southern Cross had GERWALK-like modes for their main craft. Are there any other anime that had this mode as well?

Taksraven

Orguss did (and it was called a Gerwalk, as well...not surprising, I suppose, considering the staff).

Some of the Zeta and Double Zeta mecha had modes that looked suspiciously gerwalk-ian, but none of them were referred to as such.

I can't think of any others, but I also have the distinct feeling that I've having a brain-fart and missing something obvious.

[VFTF1]

So for my final answer I say what is the mission?

The mission is what it always is in Macross: Saving the women you love!

Gerwalk only works for that.

Battroid works, on the other hand, if you want to fall on the woman you love

Pete

[Gubaba]

The mission is what it always is in Macross: Saving the women you love!

Gerwalk only works for that.

Battroid works, on the other hand, if you want to fall on the woman you love

Pete

...And fighter works just fine if you're too busy enjoying the sky to give a damn about the woman (women?) you love....or if you want to take a swim after the the woman you love has been whisked off to some unknown area of the galaxy.

I dunno. Seems like they're all pretty much even to me.

[VFTF1]

Speaking of Valkyrie and women we love - one thing that hasn't been considered in all of this is Myria in her 1J and how she did.... although frankly - I don't remember Did she do anything of note with her valkyrie in any mode?

Pete

[Gubaba]

Speaking of Valkyrie and women we love - one thing that hasn't been considered in all of this is Myria in her 1J and how she did.... although frankly - I don't remember Did she do anything of note with her valkyrie in any mode?

Pete

She did some fancy battroid flying with Max in episode 28...she managed to fly a baby safely into orbit in fighter mode...and she pwned Basara in gerwalk. Does any of that count?

EDIT: Whoops, I meant episode 27 ("Love Drifts Away"), not episode 28...in which I believe she did absolutely nothing.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

She did some fancy battroid flying with Max in episode 28...she managed to fly a baby safely into orbit in fighter mode...and she pwned Basara in gerwalk. Does any of that count?

Nah. I could do that in my sleep ;p

Pete

[Aurelin Hawk]

I voted for battroid; it can do hand to hand.

Although Mr. March came up with a good point: The tranformation itself is the best feature! Keep your enemy guessing by constanly changing the rules of the fight!

[SchizophrenicMC]

She did some fancy battroid flying with Max in episode 28...

I could do that in a coma.

[Excillon]

I have to say Battroid, because if I'm in a battroid, odds are I'm supposed to be doing some damage, and I think that mode is best equipped for that.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I have to say Battroid, because if I'm in a battroid, odds are I'm supposed to be doing some damage, and I think that mode is best equipped for that.

Fighter Hikaru 1S didn't kill Bodolza in DYRL?, Strike Battroid Hikaru 1S did.

[ChronoReverse]

Funny how GERWALK is winning when it could've "missed the cut" during the design lol

[Valkyrie Driver]

I had to say gerwalk, because it seems to be the most versatile. Even though this may sound like a cop out, all of the modes are useful. Unfortunately the gerwalk mode beats the other two modes. I mean Battroid is just cool, fighting the Zentradi on even terms, also, it reminds me of what got me into giant real robot mecha in the first place (Battletech, ahh the memories). The fighter mode is cool too, I mean, in the real world we don't have variable fighters, just the plain old fighters. Ever since I was two I wanted to fly fighters and the prestige that goes with saying your a fighter pilot is part of what makes the fighter mode so damn cool, also the flying shooting and maneuvering part is awesome too. But the gerwalk is the jack of all trades, the ultimate air support weapon, it can fly and shoot down aerial targets, mess up ground targets, not to mention fire guns and missiles in multiple firing arcs, and yes it has manipulator hands for rescuing those requisite damsels in distress (I suppose you could say it's great for picking up chicks, bad pun I'm sorry), and also picking up other things, who needs a tow truck, just call the dude with the valk...

[SchizophrenicMC]

Valk Driver, isn't your dad a fighter pilot?