Is Yamato too greedy?

[edwin3060]

That's not the way it works here in Poland. Here, VAT is levied at every step as I describe it. I had simply assumed VAT works the same in all of the EU. Perhaps it doesn't. In any case, if VAT is only levied when the product is sold to the final consumer, then it is not really a VAT tax, but simply a sales tax/consumption tax.

The whole idea of VAT is that it is levied throughout the chain and that the consumer foots the final bill while companies pay only the difference (aka a company would pay to the government [VAT collected minus VAT paid] - and if the difference were negative, then the government owes them).

Pete

I think we have different definitions of VAT versus sales tax. From wiki:

"Value added tax (VAT), or goods and services tax (GST), is a consumption tax levied on value added. In contrast to sales tax, VAT is neutral with respect to the number of passages that there are between the producer and the final consumer; where sales tax is levied on total value at each stage, the result is a cascade (downstream taxes levied on upstream taxes)."

So the VAT that you described (cascade effect) is actually a sales tax, while the sales tax you described (no cascade effect) is actually VAT.

Black lotus: Nice to see another Singaporean on the boards! Whatever you may think of our system of Government, you can't deny that our system WORKS. I don't mind paying the Prime Minister two million if it means that he doesn't throw the country into a constitutional crisis, resulting in tourist losses that cost 20 million dollars (for example). Besides, 7% is nothing compared to the rest of the world, or where I am now. Don't be "Shen1 zai4 fu2 zhong1 bu4 zhi1 fu2". Not to mention our income tax rates, which are really low!

Finally, sometimes products might be sold as at a marginal loss, but that doesn't mean a net loss for the Company. Reasons for doing so vary, but in this case I suspect that HLJ needs to a)Clear the shelves for the influx of new toys that are coming in the new year and b)Get rid of old stock like the 1/48s, since the (probable) reduction in the volumes being moved with the introduction of the 1/60 v2 means that it is no longer worthwhile to hold on to stock. Remember folks, storage space costs money too!

[VFTF1]

I think we have different definitions of VAT versus sales tax. From wiki:

"Value added tax (VAT), or goods and services tax (GST), is a consumption tax levied on value added. In contrast to sales tax, VAT is neutral with respect to the number of passages that there are between the producer and the final consumer; where sales tax is levied on total value at each stage, the result is a cascade (downstream taxes levied on upstream taxes)."

Well - it all depends on what we mean by "neutral with respect to the number of passages that there are between the producer and final consumer."

Let me try to explain:

From the point of view of everybody at every point of passage except the consumer, the VAT tax is indeed "neutral" in the grand scheme of things because even though everyone at every point of passage pays VAT, you get it refunded.

Let me give you an example. Let us say VAT is 10% (to keep it simple):

Producer makes X for 1 USD

Producer sells X for 2 USD (100% mark up) + 10% VAT tax to wholesaler (aka the total Gross price is 2.20 USD

Wholesaler marks up to 4.40 USD and sells to retailer for 4.40 USD + 10% VAT tax (aka the total Gross price is 4,84 USD at the VAT collected by the retailer is 10% of 4,40 aka 0.44 or just 44 cents.

Now let's just stop there to make it even simpler.

The Wholesaler, in paying the producer for item X, paid 20 American cents in VAT tax. In selling the item to the retailer, he collected 44 cents in Vat tax (thereby GETTING BACK HIS 20 American cents in VAT already paid).

He then owes the government 24 cents (44-20).

So yes - for the Wholesaler it is "neutral" in that sense.

But for the consumer - it certainly ISN'T because the consumer does not qualify for VAT refunds and the consumer ends up paying all of the various VATs that were added up as product X was passed down from producer to wholesaler to retailer etc etc.

As for the producer - his VAT accounting looks like this: he buys stuff for his factory or he imports (and pays VAT on the border) and then he sells his product X with a VAT surcharge (and again - he gets the VAT he pays back by making the sale).

If, in the accounting process, a company collects less VAT than it spends (for instance sales are lousy and you have a blow out and end up actually bringing in less VAT than you spend) then they file for a tax return of the VAT they they over-paid in the cycle.

In this sense the VAT tax is indeed "neutral" at every stage because for all of the entities (except the consumer) the VAT tax is refunded either directly via its' collection through sales or by the government in the case of negative VAT account discrepencies at the end of a given fiscal quarter.

But for the consumer - non of this is refundable - and in this sense VAT is not really netrual: it is neutral for business, it adds up for the consumer.

This is what I meant when I wrote that VAT is charge at every stage and consumers have to bear the burden of it. Wiki is right about it being a netral tax - but only in the sense that it is refunded to everyone save the consumer.

Pete

[edwin3060]

Yea ok we are arguing about the same thing then-- I thought you misunderstood how VAT worked with the whole 17% at each stage thing ("Americans don't have a VAT tax, but the 17% is charged at every step of the cycle - the producer sells to the wholesaler and adds 17%, then the wholesaler adds their mark up + 17% and finally the retailer does the same.")-- which is actually a sales tax (by wiki definitions).

Anyway, the whole cashflow issue mentioned by blacklotus brings up an interesting point: Is HLJ facing cashflow issues? I'd understand if they were, because they face the same pressures as (for example) GM or any other distributor in keeping overheads low. However, if there is a prolonged depression in toy sales, would we lose one of our major sources of Japanese toys?

[Vostok 7]

Is Yamato greedy? Of course they are. If HLJ is clearancing out 1/48 super max and milla's for $90 (regular price 190) its blatently obvious that Yamato is greedy. HLJ isn't going to let them go for a loss. Therefore they cost less than $90 to produce. That's equates to more than 100% markup.

Pathetic.

:lol:

You've obviously never been in retail. Selling things at a loss or very very near to it is just a part of the game when you get too much stock. So yes, more than likely they ARE selling them at a loss. Usually wholesale is only around 15-20% of retail.

Vostok 7

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

And you'll find the parts used in the Yamato valks in any model for that scale (Say 1/60 VF-1A) uses the same parts. All that's different between the different versions are their paint masks and plastic color. Remember Skyfire? New paintmask for the old 1/55. With Lego, they've got to maintain production facilities for hundreds of different parts. The 2X4 isn't the only Lego brick. And at least Lego has good QC. Have you ever had a lego fall apart? (Sets notwithstanding, as they do that. It's expected of them. What fun is a modular toy that you can't take apart?) Can you take a Lego 2X4 and snap it in half? A friction hinge with no friction is outrageous, and Lego agrees. QC starts from the minute they buy their molds. Each is measured with a micrometer. If the mold isn't within .2 millimeters of perfect, it's thrown out. This is why a Lego hinge has resistance.

Lego has 23 Properties. Of them, 13 are externally copyrighted/trademarked. Moving from there, more sets are made for the external properties than internal. Why? It sells better. Lego Star Wars is damn popular with the kids, and their parents, even more so. On the same token, a 25 year old is not very likely to buy a Lego City Airplane.

Yet, we see that Lego charges much less. If Lego made a Macross line, we'd have something GREAT!

It's just my belief, that based on other companies, Yamato overcharges, and is totally okay with it, because their customers are totally okay with it.

I agree with what this man said. Just like with my nintendo example. Some companies do charge more than other companies competiing. The only difference is nintendo has competition whereas yamato is the only game in town for the thing they make which could be the contributing factor. When another company can compete with yamato and make valks on their level of sculpt accuracy, complexity, quality etc, then there would be a price war.

Guys just look at the console games industry to see what I mean. Nintendo has no incentive to put the price down on the wii unlike the other manufacturers despite their machine not being as powerful a system. Why? Because it's selling well. That's just good business. But it doesn't mean you the consumer should be all happy if you wanted to play that one or two games on the system but didn't want to justify buying the overpriced game console just to play that one or two games on it that you like. You as a consumer should be pretty angry at paying premium for a less powerful system because you are used to having more for less.

The moral of the story: all companies are greedy because businesses are out to make money. But the question is how greedy is yamato compared to other companies that offer toys of a similar level as theirs? Sure they are small, people keep saying but can you say you are getting as good value for money buying the 1/60 Qrau vs 1/48 vf-1 when they first came out? One is much less complex, one can't transform. One looks less detailed. So if you go back to my game console example of the nintendo wii being overpriced compared to the others, the Qrau could be said to be overpriced thing in this instance.

Greed is good for businesses. Value for money is good for consumers. Businesses want to be able to get away with as little value for money as possible if they can (nintendo wii example) if that means more profit. But consumers want to be able to get as good value for money as they can especially if it translates into better quality in the item. (remember how many people whined about lack of tampo printing on yamato valkyries in the past compared to bandai toys? This is an example of something that you as a consumer expect because you have competition like bandai toys to compare against yamato. If other companies never existed, you wouldn't have anything to compare with.)

Just because yamato is small doesn't get them off the hook. That doesn't mean they could still overcharge for something like any other company might still do. It really depends on the toy they are doing. I think vf-1 is easy for them to milk because there is more than one type of the same thing in the show. Whereas with other mecha there isn't as many variations. So perhaps that has something to do with it. The more profit they make on a given toy, the more incentive to keep improving and releasing better ones in future with the profits they make. (v2 1/60 for example?) they can take what they learned and reuse that knowledge for future.

[blacklotus]

I think we have different definitions of VAT versus sales tax. From wiki:

"Value added tax (VAT), or goods and services tax (GST), is a consumption tax levied on value added. In contrast to sales tax, VAT is neutral with respect to the number of passages that there are between the producer and the final consumer; where sales tax is levied on total value at each stage, the result is a cascade (downstream taxes levied on upstream taxes)."

So the VAT that you described (cascade effect) is actually a sales tax, while the sales tax you described (no cascade effect) is actually VAT.

Black lotus: Nice to see another Singaporean on the boards! Whatever you may think of our system of Government, you can't deny that our system WORKS. I don't mind paying the Prime Minister two million if it means that he doesn't throw the country into a constitutional crisis, resulting in tourist losses that cost 20 million dollars (for example). Besides, 7% is nothing compared to the rest of the world, or where I am now. Don't be "Shen1 zai4 fu2 zhong1 bu4 zhi1 fu2". Not to mention our income tax rates, which are really low!

I want to keep it short, as I shouldn't discuss politics in a hobby website. The timing of the increase of GST from 5% to 7% is totally wrong. Yes, it's on hindsight that it's wrong. SG is in a recession. What I don't like about this govt is the fact they are unwilling to admit they are wrong. And there's no accountability of their mistakes.

Mistake 1: terrorist suspect Mas Selamat limps out of a max security prison. No big guy takes the responsibility. They fire the guards and the superintendent of the detention centre. And the govt claimed Mas Selamat is not dangerous now (maybe because he walks with a limp).

Mistake 2: gst increase this year from 5% to 7%. All retailers are complaining about this, especially with the increase in inflation caused by high fuel prices/shortage of food supplies because of biofuel usage. They claim this gst increase is to cover the loss of tax income due the the lower taxes. Instead, because of the high property prices/high volume of property sales, income tax revenue is a nice big collection of several billion dollars surplus.

Mistake 3: GST taxation is a double taxation in SG in lots of areas. We pay 30% water-transportation tax. And we're charged GST on this tax. We pay for a TV licence (a form of tax). We pay GST on the license too. There are other examples. GST is a recessive tax. It affects the lower income much more than the richer folk out there.

Mistake 4: 2 govt linked companies, one of which is headed by the PM's wife, the other an ex-deputy PM, invest tens of billions of dollars in US, Swiss and British financial firms. The former also invested about 1 billion dollars in ABC learning company in Australia. ABC is now bankrupt. The financial firms investments are also down about 50%. Our govt claimed they're taking a long term approach, hoping to profit in 20 years time. Again, nobody takes responsibility for the fiascos.

Mistake 5: DBS bank, a govt. founded bank, and several other financial firms sells Lehman Bros linked products to illiterate retirees. These products now have zero value. What did our esteem PM, who used to be the finance minister, advise these folks, speaking after keeping silent for a fortnight (or is it more)? Caveat Emptor.

Mistake 6: Deciding to build not 1 but 2 casinos in Singapore, hoping this will bring in another source of much needed revenue from rich global gamblers. I've no need to say how immoral gambling is, not to mention the other social ills it will bring in.

But that's how we're gonna build a more caring and graceful Singapore.

I sincerely apologise for dragging politics/economics of a small red speck (or is it a snot?) into this wonderful hobby forum on Macross.

I will stop posting such trash and concentrate on Macross proper. Thank you.

Edited December 17, 2008 by blacklotus

[blacklotus]

Yea ok we are arguing about the same thing then-- I thought you misunderstood how VAT worked with the whole 17% at each stage thing ("Americans don't have a VAT tax, but the 17% is charged at every step of the cycle - the producer sells to the wholesaler and adds 17%, then the wholesaler adds their mark up + 17% and finally the retailer does the same.")-- which is actually a sales tax (by wiki definitions).

Anyway, the whole cashflow issue mentioned by blacklotus brings up an interesting point: Is HLJ facing cashflow issues? I'd understand if they were, because they face the same pressures as (for example) GM or any other distributor in keeping overheads low. However, if there is a prolonged depression in toy sales, would we lose one of our major sources of Japanese toys?

I hope not. But considering HLJ just expanded recently (was it last year?), this global recession is bad for them in terms of timing. (Not that it's good for anyone.)

On a personal basis, I've already cut down on my monthly toy purchases. Main reasons below but are not exhaustive:

1) strong Yen vs SG$. Since Jan 2008, it has gone up by about 30%

2) preparing myself for a possible salary freeze/cut or worse, a job loss

3) loss of heiseidemocracy as a English speaking figure review website. I miss Shingo and his Tokyo comiket/wonderfest trips and figure reviews. I do hope he's well and alive, even if he gives up collecting figures totally.

Still, I can count my blessings that I have no debt, my own apartment, and some savings. (Though my recent investments need to be kept for the long term too since they're down about 50% too. )

[edwin3060]

1: Head rolling, like happens in many countries, may satisfy the bloodlust of the populace but never accomplishes anything-- People who were directly negligent were punished, what more do you want? A great symbolic gesture that makes you feel better but doesn't actually solve the situation, or may make the situation worse because the newbies have to be trained? Every prison can be broken out of, one escapee out of hundreds is actually an amazing figure.

2&3: You already admitted that it was bad in hindsight, no one could have predicted (in 2006) what would happen this year. Also, there are GST rebates for stuff like rice and other daily necessities, so the tax is not as regressive as you make it out to be. Not to mention the money the Government is able to hand out to the poor through means like NSS-- effectively the Government is taking from the rich and giving to the poor, except more well hidden so it wouldn't chase rich people away!

4: Dude-- look around you... do you see any investing firms which are making Capital gains nowadays? How can you admit to the global economic situation and yet expect that our investments will be insulated from it?

5: Might be cold but it is true. Also, the IRAS is working out a repayment scheme.

6: Casinos were a pragmatic business decision-- now that the economy (and Casinos) are failing, the Government is specifically not helping them out-- again, this was the right decision in 2006 that doesn't seem so good now. How can that be blamed on the Government?

Still, I can count my blessings that I have no debt, my own apartment, and some savings. (Though my recent investments need to be kept for the long term too since they're down about 50% too. laugh.gif

Heh be thankful for that!!

[do not disturb]

when selling things at a loss is called a "loss leader".

retailers do this with new products they know people want.

i.e. music stores sell a brand new CD for $11.99 which is below cost in hopes you'll buy another CD at regular price, $18.99 or whatever.

HLJ, is not using a $200 toy as a loss leader. its more likely that they got them on closeout from yamato who produced more than they thought they could sell. no retailer is going to take a $200 item and make it into a loss leader, no one.

[blacklotus]

when selling things at a loss is called a "loss leader".

retailers do this with new products they know people want.

i.e. music stores sell a brand new CD for $11.99 which is below cost in hopes you'll buy another CD at regular price, $18.99 or whatever.

HLJ, is not using a $200 toy as a loss leader. its more likely that they got them on closeout from yamato who produced more than they thought they could sell. no retailer is going to take a $200 item and make it into a loss leader, no one.

Glad to hear this. I like HLJ. Don't wish to see them go the way of the dodo because of this global recession.

To edwin3060: Sorry, but I've said in the earlier post, I shall stop giving my opinions of the economic/political situation of a small red speck in this wonderful Macross forum. So no more rebuttals from me about those points you mentioned. Thanks for your comments though. Cheers

[jwinges]

Even at $90 per 1/48 super I'm sure HLJ is making a profit. It may only be a dollar or two but they are making a profit.

And I have been in retail.

Take your average case of Michelobe Gold light beer. When I was working beer routes (Relatives own a distributor ship) the cost of the beer was about $4 per case. Selling Price was $13.99. We could take $3-4 off cases for sale purposes.

Mark up is huge.

Toys aren't that much different. In fact considering how cheap labor is for making these I wouldn't be surprised if cost on a 1/48 was under $60.

Yamato is gouging us as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at their mini line. Same size as revoltech less posability then revoltech. $10-20 more than revoltech. We've been gouged.

[do not disturb]

Even at $90 per 1/48 super I'm sure HLJ is making a profit. It may only be a dollar or two but they are making a profit.

And I have been in retail.

Take your average case of Michelobe Gold light beer. When I was working beer routes (Relatives own a distributor ship) the cost of the beer was about $4 per case. Selling Price was $13.99. We could take $3-4 off cases for sale purposes.

Mark up is huge.

Toys aren't that much different. In fact considering how cheap labor is for making these I wouldn't be surprised if cost on a 1/48 was under $60.

Yamato is gouging us as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at their mini line. Same size as revoltech less posability then revoltech. $10-20 more than revoltech. We've been gouged.

yamato has a set wholesale price, its the retailers that are marking it up to what the market will bare.

i.e. when 1/60 YF-19 was released it was $200+, now a retailer would be lucky to get $150.

the wholesale price was the same as the 1/48 but due to the demand and everyone pre-ordering it at that price($200+), every macross retailer marked it up accordingly.

the way retail prices are set for macross toys has been the same. HLJ is almost always the first vendor to set a preorder price. the asking price is usually high just to see what people are willing to pay.

if they get 1000 preorders at that retarded price, then thats exactly what they'll charge and all the smaller vendors will follow suit.

if no one pre-orders(exactly why i always say its a bad idea) the preorder price will be lowered and the smaller vendors will follow suit.

[jenius]

Not really... Yamato sets the MSRP, not the retailers like HLJ. Retailers that don't play by the MSRP don't get to continue selling the toys by that company. Sure, there are mark-ups beyond MSRP occasionally but the competitive nature of the industry normally prohibits that.

[Vostok 7]

Even at $90 per 1/48 super I'm sure HLJ is making a profit. It may only be a dollar or two but they are making a profit.

And I have been in retail.

Take your average case of Michelobe Gold light beer. When I was working beer routes (Relatives own a distributor ship) the cost of the beer was about $4 per case. Selling Price was $13.99. We could take $3-4 off cases for sale purposes.

Mark up is huge.

Toys aren't that much different. In fact considering how cheap labor is for making these I wouldn't be surprised if cost on a 1/48 was under $60.

Yamato is gouging us as far as I'm concerned. Take a look at their mini line. Same size as revoltech less posability then revoltech. $10-20 more than revoltech. We've been gouged.

Every industry is different. You can't compare the food and beverage industry with retail product sales. By that example, imagine cigarettes. They can't cost much more than a dollar or so a pack to make, and yet how much are they to the end consumer?

Average retail products only run on a 10 to 15% margin IF the retailer is lucky. Discounts usually cut into this unless the manufacturer gives a break because of manufacturer overstock, or if the retailer bought a lot of stock from the manufacturer at a large discount. With the sales HLJ is putting on Yamato products right now, I can only imagine that Yamato gave them a break on overstock or something. I'm sure they're not making a loss, but somewhere along the line someone is taking a rather large hit. That's the bottom line.

It's all about margins. Margins depend highly on the state of the market and the customer base.

For instance, if an average 1/60 v2 VF-1 toy costs around $55 to make, and Yamato's MSRP is $105, and their wholesale is 10-15% off MSRP (guessing), they're making a decent chunk on it. The problem is, manufacturing prices don't always change (unless a higher quantity is purchased, or manufacturing suddenly becomes easier but that generally only applies to per-order manufacturing and not on large batch ordering as I'm sure Yamato is doing, and if anything manufacturing prices usually have a trend upwards because of materials and labor), so now if they cut costs to the retailer to move product, it comes out of someones hide. If that same 1/60 VF-1 toy gets marked down to around $50 or $60, either HLJ is taking the loss from the 10-15% they get on wholesale, or Yamato is now digging into production costs.

This is why I said earlier, it's HIGHLY dependent on 1) What the wholesale discount from Yamato to the retailer is and 2) What Yamato's actual final production costs per toy are. Until you know those two things, there's absolutely no way to quantify whether or not Yamato is "greedy". The rest is just whiny internet nerds thinking they know more about business than a functioning company does.

Vostok 7

[AcroRay]

This is why I said earlier, it's HIGHLY dependent on 1) What the wholesale discount from Yamato to the retailer is and 2) What Yamato's actual final production costs per toy are. Until you know those two things, there's absolutely no way to quantify whether or not Yamato is "greedy". The rest is just whiny internet nerds thinking they know more about business than a functioning company does.

Yeah - kind'a like the $150 Beta Fighter situation....

[Vostok 7]

Yeah - kind'a like the $150 Beta Fighter situation....

:lol:

Vostok 7

[sketchley]

Great. First mustard, now cigarattes.

First, economies of scale (this is the 2nd time it's been mentioned by someone.) The per unit price of something manufactured in the billions is significantly less than something manufactured in the thousands.

Second, cigarattes are heavily taxed. Though part of the price increase is similar, a huge chunk of it is totally different.

Now, if we're going to insist on comparing the items to others, at least do it with something similar. The Beta Fighter is a good start. And what's that? Similar pricing, you say? Speaks volumes, eh.

[Vostok 7]

Great. First mustard, now cigarattes.

First, economies of scale (this is the 2nd time it's been mentioned by someone.) The per unit price of something manufactured in the billions is significantly less than something manufactured in the thousands.

Second, cigarattes are heavily taxed. Though part of the price increase is similar, a huge chunk of it is totally different.

Now, if we're going to insist on comparing the items to others, at least do it with something similar. The Beta Fighter is a good start. And what's that? Similar pricing, you say? Speaks volumes, eh.

Don't forget beer!

Vostok 7

[arrow]

well.... with todays economy and with less people who will want to splurge on a $200 toy. yamato will have to find a way to adapt their business strategy.

[sketchley]

well.... with todays economy and with less people who will want to splurge on a $200 toy. yamato will have to find a way to adapt their business strategy.

How's that? The people who could afford them either can still afford them (they have their jobs) or they lost their jobs, and can't afford rent, let alone lunch.

Or are you referring to the gray market outside of Japan?

[VFTF1]

Sketchley - stop being rational and logical! The more rational and logical arguments you write, the less chance that this thread will continue into infinity!

Now -

Look guys - yesterday, my mom bought some tuna fish - it cost the equivalent of ONE dollar. And you know - tunas - they swim in the ocean - they don't grow on trees you know. But still - a can of tuna costs about one dollar.

Now, if a can of tuna costs one dollar retail and a Yamato Valkyrie costs 200 dollars?! Come on!

Yamato shame on you!

Pete

[do not disturb]

Not really... Yamato sets the MSRP, not the retailers like HLJ. Retailers that don't play by the MSRP don't get to continue selling the toys by that company. Sure, there are mark-ups beyond MSRP occasionally but the competitive nature of the industry normally prohibits that.

alright, i'm going using the YF-19 as an example again.

when it first came out, we all agree that it retailed for $200+, yes?

but somehow i got the same YF-19 for about $160-ish shipped.

and mind you this wasn't months later, i got them when they was first released.

yes, yamato sets a MSRP but if they say something should sell for $150 yet dozens of people are placing pre-orders at HLJ for $200, what would you as a retailer charge?

maybe a nice guy would sell it for $150, but the majority would sell it for $200 because thats what people are willing to pay, as was the case for the YF-19.

[reddsun1]

Maybe it owes to my ignorance of economics, overhead vs profit margins, and the like. I don't know if it's necessarily "greed" on Yamato's part, so I didn't vote yes in the poll. But I DO feel the price points on these toys are just too high. And yes, the Bandai chunky-monkies are too da*n high too, for that matter. The Mac 0 and YF series aren't even on the radar for me--prices are too f'ing rediculous to even consider...

Yeah, you can pummel me with justifications like: "the product will cost what collectors are willing to pay," "product prices only go as high as what the market will bear," and all that jazz.

But no matter what rationalization I might use to justify buying one; i.e. "they're collector-pieces," or "they amount of detail and accuracy is light-years beyond what was available when you were a kid," it's still trying to justify spending upwards of $100+ bucks a pop FOR A TOY. You can call 'em what you damn well please--THEY'RE TOYS.

Now, I'd have to say the 1/48s are still my bon-e-fied favs--they're the biggest, coolest looking versions of the VF-1 to be had anywhere. I'd like to sample the 1/60 v.2. In fact, I'd like to have a complete "Skull Sqn" at last, some day.

But I think of the amt of $$ we're talkin' to finally assemble that Skull Sqn of 1/60 v.2's. Hell, we're talkin' enough dough to get a complete set of 8 pistons to go into a "new" 351C. That same [ballpark] $$$ again gets me an Aussie Clevo block; and the same $$$ again secures a pair of closed-chamber heads. That's a long-ways towards getting myself everything I need to build that 450HP lump I want to go into the Superoo.

I know, it all boils down to one's own priorities. "What are you willing to save for, budget for, and sacrifice to get the things you want?"

I just wish and think that--as cool as they are--it'd be nice if the 1/60s were $40-$50 instead of $100-$110; if the 1/48s were $70-$80 instead of $160-$170...

I mean, really. How much does damn plastic cost, to make these things?

[reddsun1]

Oh well. At least the 1/48 "Angel Birds" ver is on sale again at HLJ dot com. Down to 5920 yen! It's just such an ugly duckling though--and my customizing skillz are non-existent!

Edited December 20, 2008 by reddsun1

[Roger]

yes, yamato sets a MSRP but if they say something should sell for $150 yet dozens of people are placing pre-orders at HLJ for $200, what would you as a retailer charge?

maybe a nice guy would sell it for $150, but the majority would sell it for $200 because thats what people are willing to pay, as was the case for the YF-19.

When has this ever happened? With the exception of one dealer (who doesn't even deal in Macross stuff), I've never seen new toys sell above the Japanese SRP.

[VFTF1]

Maybe it owes to my ignorance of economics, overhead vs profit margins, and the like. I don't know if it's necessarily "greed" on Yamato's part, so I didn't vote yes in the poll. But I DO feel the price points on these toys are just too high.

Everything in your post only shows - in my opinion - that you are not ignorant, but rather very intelligent and honest. I would have nothing against people saying "I understand the economics of it, but I feel the price is just too high." Nothing wrong with that. It is an expression of your personal preference independent of economic facts. To use another example - some people have cars. Me - I don't have a car. I don't really want one. I might buy one if I could get one for a hundred bucks (and I don't mean used, I mean brand new good car). But since they cost far more than that and I have no need or real interest in buying one, then I don't buy them and won't buy them probably. Does this mean I think car companies are greedy for charging thousands for cars? No. Does it make me ignorant of economics to say "I won't buy a new car unless it costs a hundred bucks" - no. It is a statement of my preference. There will always be people for whom the price of something is too high and others for whom the price is "just right" and others who will look at the price and say "what a bargain! must have!" This is common sense, and more often than not, economics is just that...common sense.

But I think of the amt of $$ we're talkin' to finally assemble that Skull Sqn of 1/60 v.2's. Hell, we're talkin' enough dough to get a complete set of 8 pistons to go into a "new" 351C. That same [ballpark] $$$ again gets me an Aussie Clevo block; and the same $$$ again secures a pair of closed-chamber heads. That's a long-ways towards getting myself everything I need to build that 450HP lump I want to go into the Superoo.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I have NO CLUE what a "set of 8 pistons to go into a new 351C" is. Seriously. Haven't the faintest idea. If you put them in front of me and said - hey man, here - got a set of 8 pistons to go into a new 351C - and you can have em for 200 bucks" I say - ummm...no way! Heck - if the price were TWENTY BUCKS I'd say...umm...why? No thanks. I would rather spend twenty bucks on something else. A movie, pepperonii pizza... These are my preferences. I don't know and don't really need to know what the pistons and 351Cs are and therefore don't value them very much.

Everyone has different preferences and sometimes they meet up with what is available - and sometimes they don't.

I know, it all boils down to one's own priorities. "What are you willing to save for, budget for, and sacrifice to get the things you want?"

Exactly. I agree 100%.

The problem with people voting "yes Yamato is greedy" in this thread is - I think - that they can't just be content with saying - as you do - dag, these are expenssive and then either choose to buy them or not and eventually hope that they will be of better quality and relatively lower price in the future.

Instead, it turns into a discussion about whether Yamato is greedy; as if every other company on Earth is giving things out for free and working to make them the best they can because they love you, and only Yamato is evil and in it for the lucrative trillions of dollars they are making off of repainting one VF-1 mold a couple of times.

So - yeah - I wish Yamato's "critics" were more like Reddsun1 and just said "hey man - for me personally - this is way too expensive and maybe if they got cheaper or I made tons more money then I'd buy them."

Also - what I really like about Reddsun1's example is that he noted alternative things which he DOES buy, or would buy at that price point - and notice please that those things are not necessarily things that others would agree to buy at the same price point because not everyone has the same preferences.

But I'm not about to say that the guy selling pistons for 200 bucks is evil and greedy because to me - those pistons are worth 5 cents.

That's beside the point.

Pete

[do not disturb]

When has this ever happened? With the exception of one dealer (who doesn't even deal in Macross stuff), I've never seen new toys sell above the Japanese SRP.

the YF-19 sold above the japanese MSRP.

most people(in the US) paid $200+.

i paid $160-ish shipped and i'm in the US.

a japanese member of this forum paid $125.

the YF-21 sold above the japanese MSRP.

most people(in the US) paid $200+.

i paid $160-ish shipped and i'm in the US

a japanese member of this forum paid $125.

the real problem is that the members/fans have gotten so used to the $200 price tag that the majority don't even bat an eye and plunk down our money. it also doesn't help that everyone outside of japan/china has to pay an you're-overseas-so-i'm-charging-you-more tax. these toys don't have to be expensive, we make it that way.

its been said time and time again that if you want lower the prices, if you want your voices heard, do it with your wallets!

threads like these don't do much else other than go in circles.

and i agree reddsun1,

these are in fact just toys and overpriced toys at that.

its the reason why i sold off many of my macross toys.

[sketchley]

(...) it also doesn't help that everyone outside of japan/china has to pay an you're-overseas-so-i'm-charging-you-more tax. (...)

You do realize that the manufacturer is selling at the exact same rate* to the exporter as they are to everyone one else inside Japan. All that perceived price increase is due to regular manufacturer>wholesaler>distributor>retailer costs AND import fees + exchange rate fluctuation.

Of course the price is going to be more expensive overseas. The end consumer is, after all, the one who pays for the product to cross an ocean. If anything, the only agency applying a tax is your OWN government at the border and any taxes for purchases within your government's jurisdiction.

Blame your own government for the tax increases, blame currency speculators for the fluctuating exchange rates. But don't attribute factors to the manufacturer that have nothing to do with the manufacturer.

* Probably lower, if the quantity is significant enough.

[do not disturb]

i don't remember blaming the manufacturer for anything?

the only person/entity i "blamed" is us.

and that special "tax" i speak of is from retailers.

i don't pay any kind of tax when i get import toys from japan/china, i just pay shipping to the US.

[jwinges]

Not really... Yamato sets the MSRP, not the retailers like HLJ. Retailers that don't play by the MSRP don't get to continue selling the toys by that company. Sure, there are mark-ups beyond MSRP occasionally but the competitive nature of the industry normally prohibits that.

Exactly, Most retailers agree to sell items at MSRP for a certain amount of time. Further YAMATO is the one who decides how much cost is to the retailer.

For instance...was talkign with a Nitro Snowboard rep the other night. He says I can get you the boards for cost (1/2 off MSRP). So I asked him what it costs Nitro to make one Adult middle of the line board and he says abotu $40. Cost is about $200, MSRP about $400.

In the case of YAMATO...its not only them that are being Greedy both them and the retailers are however, they start the greediness process by setting MSRP, then the business enables that by agree to it. We the buyers enable it all by continuing to buy the products.

[m0n5t3r]

wow, really? $40 to make a snowboard and then sell it for $300-$400. what's a snowboard made of? (sorry, no snow in our part of the world). definitely not plastic.

makes me REALLY want to know how much it costs to make a valk.

[sketchley]

i don't remember blaming the manufacturer for anything?

the only person/entity i "blamed" is us.

and that special "tax" i speak of is from retailers.

i don't pay any kind of tax when i get import toys from japan/china, i just pay shipping to the US.

Topic title: "Is Yamato too greedy?"

it also doesn't help that everyone outside of japan/china has to pay an you're-overseas-so-i'm-charging-you-more tax.

Who else is the "I" in the sentence referring to? If it's not the manufacturer, then you have to be clearer in the nouns you use. As in no pronouns.

[VFTF1]

In the case of YAMATO...its not only them that are being Greedy both them and the retailers are however, they start the greediness process by setting MSRP, then the business enables that by agree to it. We the buyers enable it all by continuing to buy the products.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Allow me to clear something up using this example:

wow, really? $40 to make a snowboard and then sell it for $300-$400.

Yes - 40 dollars to make a snowboard - ok.

Now you have to SELL it.

As a producer, what is your business? What's your function? Your business and function is production. You don't sell the things you produce. Why not?

Because then you'd have to also go into business as a retail seller. What's that mean? That means establishing retail chains, that means advertising, that means logistics, transport, shipping, warehouse management...

Are these things free? Do they not cost money?

Of course they cost money.

So - if the producer made a snowboard for 40 USD and turned around and tried to mass sell it to consumers then guess what?

The snowboard would no longer cost "only 40 USD to make"

In fact - I submit to you that the total cost for the producer of getting the Snowboard to the final customer if the producer had to also act as distributor/retailer would be WELL ABOVE THE 300 USD you pay for it at a store.

This is because right now, there are many different stores, many competing retailers, a division of labor in retail, different business models, which brings down costs and causes price competition to try and attract customers.

If every producer were to suddenly try to distribute their own product - the final cost to the consumer would be much higher.

Thus - it is just disingenious to say "gee - product X costs only 40 bucks to make...I should be paying 45 or 100 or at least 50% of what retailers charge."

Why?

Because if you want to look at the costs that the producer would have to incurr if the entire retail distribution system didn't exist then I would wager that the board would not cost "only 40 bucks" but 400 to 500 bucks - this counting the costs of actual production and then distribution to consumers.

People sometimes write as if distribution to consumers does not entail costs; as if advertising does not entail costs, as if transportation, storage and getting something on a shelf for you to look at it and wonder whether or not you want to buy it entails cost.

the job of retailers is to advertise products - to make you aware of all of the cool products out there and offer them at good prices. They take the risk of stocking a variety of different things all so you can look at a variety of different things and wonder which one to buy.

This is not something producers do - and if producers tried to do it then they would incur higher costs - probably much higher then letting a diversified retail market take care of it.

So to immediately go from "it only costs 40 bucks to make this snowboard" to "well then they're too greedy selling it for 200 bucks" is groundless.

Pete

[m0n5t3r]

wow, that was long... don't even know the first thing about snowboards, hell i haven't even seen one yet...

and i was just wondering, like most do, how much does it really cost to make a Yamato valk (guess we'll never know) + the other costs you mentioned ... and even if we knew, we all know that we don't have any say in what the final cost should be... hell, if anybody thinks that they can dictate to Yamato how much their products should be, then they'd better head out to the Middle East and tell the people there how much crude oil should cost...

i never said that Yamato was TOO greedy as in Bi11 G@t3s greedy... i agree that we don't really have any say in the way Yamato or any other company chooses to do business... and personally, i think the price of the transformable valks are pretty fair, expensive but fair. however, for the non-transformable stuff and the add-ons, i think they may be a little overpriced.... easy...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Every industry is different. You can't compare the food and beverage industry with retail product sales. By that example, imagine cigarettes. They can't cost much more than a dollar or so a pack to make, and yet how much are they to the end consumer?

Average retail products only run on a 10 to 15% margin IF the retailer is lucky. Discounts usually cut into this unless the manufacturer gives a break because of manufacturer overstock, or if the retailer bought a lot of stock from the manufacturer at a large discount. With the sales HLJ is putting on Yamato products right now, I can only imagine that Yamato gave them a break on overstock or something. I'm sure they're not making a loss, but somewhere along the line someone is taking a rather large hit. That's the bottom line.

It's all about margins. Margins depend highly on the state of the market and the customer base.

For instance, if an average 1/60 v2 VF-1 toy costs around $55 to make, and Yamato's MSRP is $105, and their wholesale is 10-15% off MSRP (guessing), they're making a decent chunk on it. The problem is, manufacturing prices don't always change (unless a higher quantity is purchased, or manufacturing suddenly becomes easier but that generally only applies to per-order manufacturing and not on large batch ordering as I'm sure Yamato is doing, and if anything manufacturing prices usually have a trend upwards because of materials and labor), so now if they cut costs to the retailer to move product, it comes out of someones hide. If that same 1/60 VF-1 toy gets marked down to around $50 or $60, either HLJ is taking the loss from the 10-15% they get on wholesale, or Yamato is now digging into production costs.

This is why I said earlier, it's HIGHLY dependent on 1) What the wholesale discount from Yamato to the retailer is and 2) What Yamato's actual final production costs per toy are. Until you know those two things, there's absolutely no way to quantify whether or not Yamato is "greedy". The rest is just whiny internet nerds thinking they know more about business than a functioning company does.

Vostok 7

But I argue the customer doesn't have to know those things and the customer in general doesn't care how it is made. If a competitor can do those things cheaper and better and the customer can find a better deal somewhere else they will go for the best deal they can find (customer greed? consumers generally buy cheap goods) just like how businesses will find the best worker at the cheapest price to save money, not hire the most expensive one. (corporate greed - find the cheap workers)

Take an example with software: Microsoft might spend a lot of money developing a program for commercial reasons (make profit that's what businesses do things for, right?), but some hobbyist programmer makes a similar thing and offers it virtually free because they decided that after looking at all the commercially-available software out there, they weren't getting what they wanted from the paid-for stuff that they currently see out there and so that prompted them to just make the program for themselves anyway (for their own personal use) so it would cost them nothing to just share it with others.

But this competes with the commercial microsoft program which people were used to buying and paying money for. Even though the commercial product being sold was expensive for the business to develop because the business had to hire workers to make it, that doesn't mean the customer/consumer should give a poo if that program isn't better than what else is out there. (ie in this case the program which is offerred for free and isn't full of bugs and doesn't hog so much of your computer's resources to run it)

So what I am trying to say to you all is that results are what matter - they are what consumers care about, not detailed excuses. If I can see a bargain selling cheap (not because it isn't good quality and no one wants it, but just that the company makes less profit than the competition - a good example is the commodore 64 home computer back in the 80s - no other company could compete with that deal which is HOW it got so popular) then I will go with the deal that offers the best quality at the same time as gives the best value, not worry about the company that makes it prospering or the profit they make. I'm a selfish, tight-ass consumer! As a customer/consumer all I should care about is me, me, me. And for all those people saying: "businesses are out to make money they are not a charity", I say to that "the consumer is a consumer whore out to find the best deal available. They are not all rich and will look to save".

So it all boils down to greed of the consumer who holds onto their money tightly (uncle scrooge) vs the greed of the corporation who want to maximise profit (and who may not care about value - case in point: Nintendo Wii vs the Xbox360 and PS3 which are much higher quality and aimed at the higher end consumer but which are getting their asses kicked in sales due even though they are offerred at a competitive price to the lower-quality, lower-end Wii.)

As a person who buys a lot of games console hardware I know that nintendo are offerring worse bang for your buck. Why should I care that how they do things is more expensive than how microsoft or sony do things if the end result is that their product just isn't as good or meet the standards of the discerning buyer? The answer is: you shouldn't. No excuses. One is making less profit (or no profit at all on the hardware in sony's case) and the other is laughing their ass off at the huge sales plus profit on the machine they sell because the masses are dumb or not as tech savvy as the discerning buyer looking for good value and quality. You could say that yamato isn't greedy, but the reality is, greed is what drives people to start business. All companies are greedy. But all you should care about is what the end result is: does the product meet your standards for what the final price is, compared to what ever else is on the market at the time? That's all that should be taken into consideration. If for example the money is wasted on stupid stuff like making the box look ultra fancy or putting diecast on parts that don't need diecast and that boosts the cost of the product but doesn't improve it, then why should people be happy about that? All they care about is what the end result is: is it a good product that satisfies the demand of the buyers? I don't care that toynami put diecast on the alphas and therefore the price is higher to make them due to that, (excuses for why things should cost more to the consumer) just that the thing they sell is something that I'd want to buy.

My point is why should the unhappy buyer care about stuff that costs lots of money to make if the thing that costs lots of money to make might seem a little unnecessary? If bandai for example offerred tampo printing on all their toys in the past while yamato had stickers, should not the consumer complain that they can still get better value from the other companys' toys than yamato's? Is it not fair to point out that the competition may offer something the other can't? What difference does it make to the "whiny nerd" why something cost a little more to develop when all the whiny nerd wants is the best thing that money can buy? If the competition can actually do it cheaper than your business can, it's time to rethink how you are running things not get angry at your buyers for finding the better deal and being smart shoppers. Calling them names is only going to piss them off.

Edited December 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker