Macross DYRL Film Masters

[HannouHeiki]

I just want to blog a little bit about my experiences with the quality of DYRL over the years and hopefully elicit some comments about the future of DYRL releases.

When I was a kid in the 90s I picked up a copy of the dubbed "Super Spacefortress Macross" on VHS. Although the quality of the VHS recording itself was okay for a sci-fi convention bootleg, the colors seemed very pale. Misa was as white as she could be. I eventually got a hold of a VHS fansub of a late generation and it had the faded color problem too. Even though it was a late generation copy, I felt that the faded colors went all the way back to the original source.

One day at the video rental store I found a copy of Clash of the Bionoids in the kid section. The the colors seemed more vibrant (Misa and Minmay were not white/pale), and it didn't have those strange black bars on the top and bottom (I was a kid, what letterbox was) Being a kid with multiple household VCRs and too much time, I spliced together my own copy of the dubbed Macross. I used the COTB video and spliced in the deleted scenes (almost down to the exact frame). I was pleased with the end result: I had no wierd black bars and higher color quality.

It wasn't until later that I noticed that the COTB Bodolza explosion scene had an out of sequence frame...just like in the current HD Remastered release.

When I started college we had DVD. I ordered an HK bootleg that was seemed to be a VCD conversion. Again, it wasn't bad for what it was, but it had that faded color thing going on. It had pretty good subs though...

Later, I got the awesome fx release of DYRL Perfect Edition. Not only did it have the new animated ending, but the colors were restored and vibrant this time. A lot like the COTB tape I had.

My conclusion at the time was that the original release had poor colors for masters, but they fixed it for the Perfect Edition.

As of now we have the "HD Remastered" version, which claims to use a new master taken from "HD film telecine source." This version also has the Bodolza explosion scene error.

Now here is what I'm wondering:

1. Have others experienced the "faded color" vs "vibrant color" for original vs Perfect Edition releases? How do the colors of the "original theatrical version" on Disc 2 of the HD Remastered Memorial Box compare with Disc 1?

2. The Boldoza Explosion error on HD Remastered is on the COTB vhs. This error is not new. My dubbed Super Spacefortress Macross vhs does *not* have this error.

Now here is what I'm thinking; I'm no film expert though:

1. A master print of DYRL is created. Intermediate prints are made for duplication purposes, which are then used to release DYRL on home video.

2. A new print is created and called the Perfect Edition. It has a new ending (and better colors?). Intermediate prints are again sent out for duplication purposes.

-One intermediate print is the precursor to the fx/Bandai Perfect Edition

-Another intermediate with the Boldoza explosion error leads to the creation of COTB.

Now here is what I'm wondering. Many of complained about the HD Remastered quality, particularly grain. I personally find it pretty good, although I didn't expect a Stars Wars Special Edition level of remastering/cleaning up.

The thing is grain is caused by degrading film. When you make intermediate prints all of the grain from the original are transferred, so cleaning the intermediate can only take you so far.

It looks like to me that the HD Remaster was made from an intermediate...if that's the case I'm curious as to the state of any other prints, and if this means that the current HD Remaster is as far was we're going to get, eventually going to Blue Ray.

Edited December 6, 2008 by OptimusX

[boinger]

I watched the dyrl theatrical DVD in my limited edition boxset and it had the bodolzaa video glitch. The colours of the theatrical dyrl did not look faded, but the contrast/brightness was definitely darker than the remastered dyrl movie. At times, I could hear faint pops/crackes in the remastered audio, but not in the theatrical audio. There are no deinterlacing issues on the remastered dyrl that I can see as Hurin was pointing out as a problem with the perfect edition dyrl DVD.

It might be possible to clean up the remastered dyrl grainy-ness of the picture with Tmpeg video encoding software, but the picture details could get blurred.

After seeing multiple versions of DYRL, I think DYRL has room for improvement for a blue ray release.

[Hikuro]

Think of it like this, the more reproducing you do of other products, the more color bleeding and fading you'll see in each release.

When I was in highschool, my friends had copied Evangelion from a anime club....now that copy was from a Laser Disc which came to a VHS tape that had of course been copied. WHen I made my copy I saw a HUGE issue of color fade and bleeding, even a bit of audio problems.

I think the only way you can have the masters is if you're apart of that studio....or you purchased a replica of those masters.

The more you f around with copies, the more likely the quality is crap out. I had a VHS copy of ALL of the versions of DYRL and Flashback, basically 6 hours worth of footage, if I watched that with the remaster, HUGE difference.

It's always about where you get your stuff, if it's from a bootleg source, chances are, the quality wont be as good as you'd like.

[HannouHeiki]

Thanks for all the input. The way I was thinking about it the Boldoza glitch didn't show up until around the time of the Perfect Edition, but if it is on the original theatrical release as well, then the error may have existed much longer than I previously thought. I just find it odd that certain film prints have the error and others do not.

They can clean the grain digitally without losing quality, but that process is very expensive and I'm not sure if we'll ever see that happen, but hopefully they'll listen to all the criticism regarding the remaster DVD and take it further before BD.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Interesting news on the age of the error. It definitely means they're working with two prints. Do you know if the error only appears in Perfect Edition copies? It's possibly it was introduced through the adding of An Angel's Paints. Still, good to know it wasn't a recent mistake as previously though. Still, they corrected other errors in the film, why not this?

I know as I compared older versions when the remaster I discovered that the horrrendous soft spots in the video were not unique to it as well. The remastering just made them more obvious. Grain is not a bad thing, but it is at an unacceptable level in the new master, and does suggest it wasn't made from the source master. It can be toned down, as evidenced by a fansub that did a beautiful job of it.

I've seen numerous copies too. My first was a HK rip that removed the Minmay shower scene (rather seamlessly too). It had bland colors and I though that was the look. It wasn't until I saw a proper R2 rip that I saw how vibrint it was supposed to be. My later copy of Bionoids was a used VHS so badly worn, I can't really help you there.

[Hikuro]

Okay, here's the FX DVD copy I was working on. mind you this was a COPY of the FX dvd, not the authentic one that a friend of mine had originally owned and copied for me, and with it on the bottom is a screen shot of the remastered footage I used for my dub.

Huge ass difference. Just look at the quality that's lost in the above shot and the darker colors that bled...you see very little of any of the hard work the animators went through to give out a great detail in the clothing or hair or anything in particular. Not too mention the "Bars" really do squish the frames to look obscured.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Hikuro

[Zinjo]

When working with digital transfers there is no quality loss unless you compress the video with a codec. It is possible to get a 1:1 rip of the DVD, however it will be the same size as what's on the DVD (which is about 5 - 7GB these days). That would be the maximum quality you could hope for from a DVD as it is also compressed from a higher definition master (35mm film or HD video).

To get a proper remaster, BigWest needs to first get a near perfect print of the film. Take a lossless transfer of it digitally and then clean up that transfer digitally (like what was done with the Indiana Jones trilogy). After which they will have a file probably in the range of about 100 - 150GB. Then they'll need to do any edits (additions like the Angel Paint ending, etc...) Once the movie is color corrected, enchanced, any new audio tracks added and finalized, then it is ready for DVD and Bluray transfers, which will shrink the masters down to the appropriate sizes.

The quality will be there as it's better to down grade a very high resolution video file, than to upgrade a lower resolution one to a higher resolution.

I think the remastered version was probably done in Japan were there is limited experience with digital film restoration, unlike the US. I am surprised that they didn't tap Animeigo to do their remastering. They did a hell of a job on the SDFM remaster and they had much less to work with!

[Mr March]

Oh, that looks so damn good. I'd love to watch DYRL in that quality.

[Hikuro]

Oh, that looks so damn good. I'd love to watch DYRL in that quality.

Well have you watched my dub? It practically IS that quality.

I think the remastered version was probably done in Japan were there is limited experience with digital film restoration, unlike the US. I am surprised that they didn't tap Animeigo to do their remastering. They did a hell of a job on the SDFM remaster and they had much less to work with!

The first season discs of Dragonball Z showed some of the remastering and widescreen techniques they used, it's all pretty spendy too. Not something you take for granted, it's something you wanna know will sell and you can make your money back.

AnimeEigo's film masters I believe were used for ADV's work, but I'm not sure if it were used in the TV remaster box set that came out roughly the same time as the DYRL remaster did.

Infact I'm a bit surprised the whole franchise recieved some sort of a remaster treatment.

Still though it's good stuff when it atleast looks enhanced and cleaned up.

[Vifam7]

I think the remastered version was probably done in Japan were there is limited experience with digital film restoration, unlike the US. I am surprised that they didn't tap Animeigo to do their remastering. They did a hell of a job on the SDFM remaster and they had much less to work with!

I don't think the issue is knowledge of film restoration. I have plenty of remastered anime DVDs from Japan that look awesome. It's more often what materials are available for restoration work. That said I have no idea what happened with the remaster version release. My Perfect Edition Japanese DVD (IIRC released back in 2000) has excellent video quality. In fact, far better than the newer remaster version when viewed on a HDTV. However, the remaster version has better color. I believe the fx bootleg is simply a rip of the Japanese PE DVD.

The Animeigo release was commendable for the work that was done with utterly crap materials. But there were limits to what they could do and it showed in a few areas. In certain episodes grain was artificially inserted to maintain detail but it turned out like crap. There are also complaints about the color restoration being overdone which I noticed but not big deal to me. I heard that the recent remaster TV series set released in Japan is the best representation but I'm not willing to buy the series all over again.

[TheLoneWolf]

Okay, here's the FX DVD copy I was working on. mind you this was a COPY of the FX dvd, not the authentic one that a friend of mine had originally owned and copied for me, and with it on the bottom is a screen shot of the remastered footage

Huge ass difference. Just look at the quality that's lost in the above shot and the darker colors that bled...you see very little of any of the hard work the animators went through to give out a great detail in the clothing or hair or anything in particular.

Ok, the 1999 Perfect Edition video isn't that bad.

First off, the FX DVD is not a perfect copy of the official Perfect Edition, the FX's video is noticeably inferior. I know, I have both versions.

Second, here's a comparison of the official Perfect Edition DVD vs the "HD" Remaster (I wrapped the HD in quotes because it's not true HD).

At first glance, the HD video looks richer than the PE video. Look at the shadow behind the VF-1J head in the PE release, you'll notice the GBP's panel lines. But in the HD version you can barely see them. I'm no videophile, but I think Bandai just bumped up the contrast for the HD release and called it a day.

If you want to see a real treat, watch the official PE release upscaled on the PS3. The PS3 eliminates most of the interlacing issues while bringing the video to near HD quality.

UPDATE: I screwed up! I accidentally switched the two images in my comparison picture. The HD Remaster is, in fact, superior compared to the Perfect Edition release. I've deleted the old attachment and replaced it with the correct one. And yes, the PE still looks fantastic upscaled on the PS3.

Edited December 17, 2008 by TheLoneWolf

[Vifam7]

If you want to see a real treat, watch the official PE release upscaled on the PS3. The PS3 eliminates most of the interlacing issues while bringing the video to near HD quality.

You've given me a reason to buy a PS3.

[boinger]

I wonder if it would be easier to fix the perfect edition dyrl's interlacing issues then the remastered dyrl's film grain?

[TheLoneWolf]

You've given me a reason to buy a PS3.

I just received a message from Sony, did you receive the same one? It says:

"Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!"

[Vifam7]

I just received a message from Sony, did you receive the same one? It says:

"Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!"

The only problem is - i have to buy a Japanese PS3 if i want to play my DYRL DVD.

Which means I can't just go to my local BB and get it.

[TheLoneWolf]

The only problem is - i have to buy a Japanese PS3 if i want to play my DYRL DVD.

Which means I can't just go to my local BB and get it.

Do you have a dual-layer DVD burner? Just make a copy of your R2 DVD minus the region coding.

[Vifam7]

Do you have a dual-layer DVD burner? Just make a copy of your R2 DVD minus the region coding.

I have a DL DVD burner but I have no idea how I would rip my disc then reburn it minus the region coding.

[MisaForever]

Ok I have a question. Not being one who has a decent copy of DYRL (just an old recorded video tape of a fansub), what is THE BEST VERSION SUBTITLED of the movie to get? I know there was probably a thread somewhere devoted to the best of the best but don't want to read through a whole thread just to find out which is better. Is there a great fansub of nice quality that one can find online? I'd really appreciate this as I want something I can call the pinnacle of DYRL. Just PM if you like so that it doesn't spam the thread. Thanks!

[Hikuro]

Best one if you want a DVD would probably be the FX version I think. If you wanted sub, well, you could always get the remaster version with I think it's either Hurin or Gubaba's translation in sub txt form. I'd go through boingers stuff to do it.

[isamu]

is there still no word on a BD release?

[Keith]

About the audio pops, they actually are in every version of DYRL, the HD remaster just brings them more to the forefront. I've compared with an ancient fansub VHS, FX DVD, AC/MI DVD, HD Remaster, & theatrical print disc. Mind you I never noticed all those damn pops until the HD remaster, someone at Bandai/Emotion needs to learn a thing or two about audio mixing.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Ok I have a question. Not being one who has a decent copy of DYRL (just an old recorded video tape of a fansub), what is THE BEST VERSION SUBTITLED of the movie to get? I know there was probably a thread somewhere devoted to the best of the best but don't want to read through a whole thread just to find out which is better. Is there a great fansub of nice quality that one can find online? I'd really appreciate this as I want something I can call the pinnacle of DYRL. Just PM if you like so that it doesn't spam the thread. Thanks!

For the remaster, the GP fansub is the best, no nonsense version to get outside of full DVDs. Avoid the Bakawolf one like the plague, even if it is the easiest to get. BW applied too strong of a smoothing filter to counter the grain, and lots of fine details were lost. A good example is Minmay's bed. The white pattern on it is completely lost in the pink on the BW, and her light is just an orb now. GP applied one too, but at a restrained level. It looks better than the actual DVD (I know having a 1:1 rip of it).

For the Perfect edition, the NLA version is great, and was the best fansub available until the GP was released. You can get it on Box Torrents.

As for pic comparisons in this thread, the PE wins. Hikuro's remaster pic is the wrong aspect ratio (hopefully a pic issue as it happens to me too), and is too bright. It's smoother though, and background is improved. They sort of did do a contrast boost and tint shift, and little else. To be fair, some scenes are really dark in the PE. Minmay's concert had a lot of detail gained in the remaster. Starfields were also greatly improved.

The soft spots do suggest that the PE and HD share the same source print.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[MisaForever]

Well this is the one I downloaded and it's very good. Is it one of the ones you mentioned?

Macross Do You Remember Love HD Remastered [English] [spanish] 1984 R2 NTSC DVD-9 with subs added

[Skull1986]

I'm new here,

But frankly think the fansubs I've downloaded were perfectly fine.

The Bakawolf is fine for the iPod or portable video player, the COTB 2.1 fan-edit is better for burning to a personal DVD.

Right now, there is no perfect solution for DVD. All the official

releases have something wrong with them and basically aren't available to fans outside of Asia on DVD as far as I know...

[Vifam7]

I'm new here,

But frankly think the fansubs I've downloaded were perfectly fine.

The Bakawolf is fine for the iPod or portable video player, the COTB 2.1 fan-edit is better for burning to a personal DVD.

Right now, there is no perfect solution for DVD. All the official

releases have something wrong with them and basically aren't available to fans outside of Asia on DVD as far as I know...

The Perfect Edition DVD is fine. You should still be able to find and get it from various online stores. Yesasia has it.

[Skull1986]

Honestly,

I'm not that interested in a getting a DVD that costs close to $70 and has no English subtitles to boot.

I'd basically have to re-rip the thing and then add subtitles to make it worth my while.

I got out of the habit of buying Japanese-only videos years before DVD became mainstream.

I'm not getting back into that or learning Kanji now. It's just not going to happen!

[Hikuro]

Sorry to keep poking it, but if subs are the problem there's my dub *shrugs* it's about 98% accurate to the translation subs, and it uses the HD footage...motivate motivate motivate

[Batou]

is there still no word on a BD release?

Amen to that. If they were going to remaster it, why the hell didn't they do it in 1080p from the original film masters?

I'd love to see a full digital restoral a la Animeigo as opposed to a "remastering" in dvd quality (blech), but I have no idea how much financial sense this would make for the Japanese market. Hell, just a 1080p copy of the unaltered source for the fansubbers to work their magic on would be a godsend.

[Vifam7]

Amen to that. If they were going to remaster it, why the hell didn't they do it in 1080p from the original film masters?

I'd love to see a full digital restoral a la Animeigo as opposed to a "remastering" in dvd quality (blech), but I have no idea how much financial sense this would make for the Japanese market. Hell, just a 1080p copy of the unaltered source for the fansubbers to work their magic on would be a godsend.

Sometimes a remastering is better than a full digital restoration. It depends on the condition and type of masters available. A digital restoration can lead to a number of issues in which the outcome could be worse than a straight remastering or an absolute mess. Even AnimEigo's restoration work has issues such as artificially inserted grain and oversaturated colors.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Vifam7